24 Apr
2003
24 Apr
'03
8:49 a.m.
At 20:54 24/04/2003, you wrote:
Er, so?
At 18:23
24/04/2003, you wrote:
Absolute nonsense! In a normal auction, there is no specified "end time."
All this garbage about
extending auctions an extra minute, blah blah blah, is just a dumb idea.
I dispute that - the "extension" idea is what happens in a "normal"
auction. The auctioneer will take bids until all competing bidders back
out, leaving the one winner. This, naturally, maximises the sale price
(which is good for the seller & the auction house). These are two completely different formats. In a
normal auction,
everyone shows up at the same time and bids. Bidding is only for a few
minutes.
Rather like a typical eBay auction then.
In an eBay auction (a completely different format)
everyone has a very
long time to decide.
Only because (a) there's so many items on eBay, and (b) it operates in
several time zones. Imagine having to login to eBay every day at 3pm (then
adjust for timezone) just to bid on an item.
If you had an extended time feature (or pathetic idea)
no one would bid on
a 10 day auction until day 10. There would be no need to, unless you just
couldn't be around.
So, rather like the current format.
What you are trying to do is have a completely new
format for an auction.
Bullshit. The format is identical, with a built-in "anti-snipe" measure.
Specified end time with extended provision. You
don't have any such
"NORMAL" auction like this.
Of course you do. "Normal" auctions are held on a specific day, which in
real-world terms is much the same thing as an eBay end time. Hell, you even
have "buy-it-now" (sold prior, in a normal auction format), withdrawn &
changed lots.
This is like a
sealed bid auction because the auction ends at a specified time and the
winners will be those that place last second bids (i.e. not seen by
others).
Absolute bullshit. A sealed bid auction does not allow you to bid more than
once, nor do you know if your bid has been exceeded. Nor is there any
advantage/disadvantage in bidding early or late, as no-one knows what the
bids are until the auction finishes.
--
Cheers, Ade.
Be where it's at, B-Racing!
http://b-racing.com
24 Apr
24 Apr
9:21 a.m.
Specified end
time with extended provision. You don't have any such
"NORMAL" auction like this.
Of course you do. "Normal" auctions are held on a specific day, which in
real-world terms is much the same thing as an eBay end time. Hell, you
even
have "buy-it-now" (sold prior, in a normal auction format), withdrawn &
changed lots. This is like a
sealed bid auction because the auction ends at a specified time and the
winners will be those that place last second bids (i.e. not seen by
others).
Absolute bullshit. A sealed bid auction does not allow you to bid more
than
once, nor do you know if your bid has been exceeded. Nor is there any
advantage/disadvantage in bidding early or late, as no-one knows what the
bids are until the auction finishes.
11:15 a.m.
At 21:15 27/04/2003, you wrote:
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, Mike wrote:
Not quite: Everyone knows what the *second* highest one is, and that the
highest bid is at least greater than (or equal to, depending on bid timing)
that one.
The fact that the price changes during the auction, however, is the
greatest indicator that eBay is not remotely like a "sealed bid" auction.
--
Cheers, Ade.
Be where it's at, B-Racing!
http://b-racing.com
eBay is exactly what a sealed bid auction is.
Except that the bids aren't sealed all the way, since the highest one is
known to all bidders. 
2:25 p.m.
--- Adrian Vickers <avickers(a)solutionengineers.com>
wrote:
The fact that the price changes during the auction,
however, is the
greatest indicator that eBay is not remotely like a
"sealed bid" auction.
Not remotely? Is almost exactly like a sealed bid.
Those price changes during the auction mean absolutely
nothing, as the final price is determined in the last
5 seconds (at least in the majority of cases). Nobody
takes those prices changes during the auction
seriously, its like people talking before an auction,
discussing what the items are worth, but nobody really
tells you what they really think its worth. That comes
in the last 5 seconds.
Since the other bidders have no practical way to
counter bid those bids entered during the last 5
seconds, ebay's auction model can accurately be called
a "sealed bid" auction format, with the highest bidder
paying the second highest bid. If you change ebay's
format to extend the auction time after each bid, then
I agree its not a sealed auction anymore.
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
2:48 p.m.
On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, steve wrote:
--- Adrian Vickers
<avickers(a)solutionengineers.com>
wrote:
Um, I'd have to disagree. I rarely try to snipe auctions, and most of the
auctions where I'm selling things, there aren't any bids in the last few
minutes. From my experience, you can usually tell how the auction is
going to end up from watching it, and if there aren't many bids before the
last few hours, there probably isn't going to be anyone sniping the
auction.
Your experience might be different than mine, but those are my
experiences.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS
Information Technology at Purdue
Research Computing and Storage
http://www-rcd.cc.purdue.edu
The fact that the price changes during the
auction,
however, is the
greatest indicator that eBay is not remotely like a
"sealed bid" auction.
Not remotely? Is almost exactly like a sealed bid.
Those price changes during the auction mean absolutely
nothing, as the final price is determined in the last
5 seconds (at least in the majority of cases). Nobody 
3:12 p.m.
... if there aren't many bids before the last few
hours,
there probably isn't going to be anyone sniping the
auction.
I did get sniped in the last minute as a sole bidder on
something once. It was a particularly foul experience.
Like the guy was too chicken to bid normally. Bidding
first and then sniping last is not too good, but a lot better
than sneaking the whole way.
John A.
3:36 p.m.
--- Patrick Finnegan <pat(a)purdueriots.com> wrote:
Um, I'd have to disagree. I rarely try to snipe
auctions, and most of the
auctions where I'm selling things, there aren't any
bids in the last few
minutes. >
Your experience might be different than mine, but
those are my
experiences.
Yea, I don't know, definitely not my experience, were
these low interest auctions (less then 5 bids?). I
just did a search on completed ebay auctions, and all
the auctions with >10 bids were sniped.
When there are only a few bidders and little interest
in a auction item, all the differences between various
auction models melt away.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS
Information Technology at Purdue
Research Computing and Storage
http://www-rcd.cc.purdue.edu
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
3:15 p.m.
On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, steve wrote:
Since the other bidders have no practical way to
counter bid those bids entered during the last 5
seconds, ebay's auction model can accurately be called
a "sealed bid" auction format, with the highest bidder
paying the second highest bid. If you change ebay's
You apparently haven't heard of the sniping services out there that can
put in a bid reliably in the last 3-4 seconds.
Though eBay's auction mechanism may end up being utilized in such a way
that renders it similar to a sealed-bid auction, in some cases, it is not
truly a sealed-bid auction.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
3:48 p.m.
--- Vintage Computer Festival <vcf(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, steve wrote:
Huh? You apparently haven't comprehended what I said,
it doesn't make a difference if you have a sniping
service that can realiably bid .0001 seconds before a
auction ends. If someone bids 5 seconds before a
auction that beats your previous bid price you have no
way to reenter a new bid before that 5 seconds it up,
ain't going to happen, and thats why ebay is a
"sealed bid" auction model.
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
Since the other bidders have no practical way to
counter bid those bids entered during the last 5
seconds, ebay's auction model can accurately be
called
a "sealed bid" auction format, with the
highest
bidder
paying the second highest bid. If you change
ebay's
You apparently haven't heard of the sniping services
out there that can
put in a bid reliably in the last 3-4 seconds.
5:08 p.m.
On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, steve wrote:
Huh? You apparently haven't comprehended what I
said, it doesn't make a
difference if you have a sniping service that can realiably bid .0001
seconds before a auction ends. If someone bids 5 seconds before a
auction that beats your previous bid price you have no way to reenter a
new bid before that 5 seconds it up, ain't going to happen, and thats
why ebay is a "sealed bid" auction model.
I take exception to your claim that one has no way to enter a bid within
the last 5 seconds if someone tops yours. There are numerous ways to
achieve this, with the lowest tech way being to have multiple windows open
with different bids ready to be submitted while you constantly refresh the
item page.
Sure, when you get down to the last .0001 second it is pretty much
impossible, but 5 seconds is a lot of time.
Again, while I agree that the basic premise of your description of eBay
auctions can be correct under the right circumstances, it is not a sealed
bid auction format.
http://www.agorics.com/Library/Auctions/auction4.html
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
6:07 p.m.
--- Vintage Computer Festival <vcf(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, steve wrote:
I take exception to your claim that one has no way
to enter a bid within
the last 5 seconds if someone tops yours. There are
numerous ways to
achieve this, with the lowest tech way being to have
multiple windows open
with different bids ready to be submitted while you
constantly refresh the
item page.
Maybe if you had multiple windows up with a predefined
bid alreadly placed into another window (where all you
have to do is click a mouse button) you could do it
one out of 10 times (server response is typically
seconds, both on your end and ebays end), but I doubt
you could enter a new bid value based on the new
information of the sniped bid, which is what you
really need to be able to do, but I suppose in theory
its possible.
If you automated the process with a intelligent sniper
that could read the current ebay bid, well then, I
guess you would have a bunch of computers bidding
against each other in a true open bid auction, that I
agree with. (hmm, I wonder is thats coming)
Again, while I agree that the basic premise of your
description of eBay
auctions can be correct under the right
circumstances,
Yes, thats all I am trying to say (excuse me as I am
thinking on the fly), its really a hybrid auction
model, the higher the interest in the auction item,
the more snipes are likely to occur, and the more the
auction appears to simulate a sealed bid auction
format.
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
28 Apr
28 Apr
3:22 a.m.
On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, steve wrote:
Maybe if you had multiple windows up with a
predefined
bid alreadly placed into another window (where all you
have to do is click a mouse button) you could do it
one out of 10 times (server response is typically
seconds, both on your end and ebays end), but I doubt
you could enter a new bid value based on the new
information of the sniped bid, which is what you
really need to be able to do, but I suppose in theory
its possible.
Not only is it possible but I've done it before.
If you automated the process with a intelligent
sniper
that could read the current ebay bid, well then, I
guess you would have a bunch of computers bidding
against each other in a true open bid auction, that I
agree with. (hmm, I wonder is thats coming)
It wouldn't be too much more to program some of these sniping services to
do just that. But it would rely on the speed of eBay's servers, which
are prone to all manner of problems.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
27 Apr
27 Apr
4:42 p.m.
On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, steve wrote:
Not remotely? Is almost exactly like a sealed bid.
Those price changes during the auction mean absolutely
nothing, as the final price is determined in the last
5 seconds (at least in the majority of cases). Nobody
takes those prices changes during the auction
seriously, its like people talking before an auction,
discussing what the items are worth, but nobody really
tells you what they really think its worth. That comes
in the last 5 seconds.
Since the other bidders have no practical way to
counter bid those bids entered during the last 5
seconds, ebay's auction model can accurately be called
a "sealed bid" auction format, with the highest bidder
paying the second highest bid. If you change ebay's
format to extend the auction time after each bid, then
I agree its not a sealed auction anymore.
Sealed bid auctions don't result in bidding frenzies. I don't think
your comparison of sealed bid to eBay auctions holds at all.
-brian.
5:32 p.m.
--- Brian Chase <vaxzilla(a)jarai.org> wrote:
Sealed bid auctions don't result in bidding
frenzies.
They certainly do, put 10 similar valuable items up
for auction in a traditional sealed bid auction, one
week apart, as each bidder loses each week, his/her
sealed bid will increase each week so by the 6 or 7
auction a frenzie will occur, everyone fearing that
he/she will never be the winning bidder . Exactly like
you see in ebay.
I don't think
your comparison of sealed bid to eBay auctions holds
at all.
Ebay always hides the the current highest bid, the
auction ends at a fixed time, on many auction many
bids are placed within 5 seconds of the end of auction
basically removing any opportunity for the previous
bidders to place a counter bid, sounds like a sealed
bid auction to me....
-brian.
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
28 Apr
28 Apr
3:20 a.m.
On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, steve wrote:
They certainly do, put 10 similar valuable items up
for auction in a traditional sealed bid auction, one
week apart, as each bidder loses each week, his/her
sealed bid will increase each week so by the 6 or 7
auction a frenzie will occur, everyone fearing that
he/she will never be the winning bidder . Exactly like
you see in ebay.
That's not a frenzy. That's a (somewhat contrived) case of the market
value going up because presumably the auctioneer has the only supply of
some one thing that a group of people want.
Ebay always hides the the current highest bid, the
auction ends at a fixed time, on many auction many
bids are placed within 5 seconds of the end of auction
basically removing any opportunity for the previous
bidders to place a counter bid, sounds like a sealed
bid auction to me....
The biggest and most important difference is the most obvious one.
In a normal sealed bid auction, everyone submits their bid by a certain
deadline. Nobody knows what anyone else has bid. At the end of the
auction, the envelopes with the bids are opened, and the highest bid
submitted is the winner.
In a standard eBay auction, everyone always sees who the top bidder is
and what the current high bid is. If there's enough time, the high
bidder's highest amount entered can be probed by entering successively
higher bids.
There is not much room for comparison between the two.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
4:06 a.m.
On Sunday, April 27, 2003, steve wrote:
Ebay always hides the the current highest bid,
Whether you think of it as the high bid or the second highest bid, it
doesn't matter. eBay shows a possibly changing price while the auction is
in progress. Sealed bid auctions don't do that. That's a pretty big
difference.
many bids are placed within 5 seconds of the end of
auction basically
removing any opportunity for the previous bidders to place a counter bid,
sounds like a sealed bid auction to me....
The time period when most bids happen is irrelevant. On an active eBay
auction, there is some non-zero duration in which you or some machine can
see the highest proxy bid and react. It doesn't matter how close to zero it
is, because any sufficiently fast machine could do it. Sealed bid auctions
do not have this duration. A person or machine would require time travel in
order to react to a bid. Not even an infinitely fast machine could do it.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
4:21 a.m.
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Jeffrey Sharp wrote:
The time period when most bids happen is irrelevant.
On an active eBay
auction, there is some non-zero duration in which you or some machine can
see the highest proxy bid and react. It doesn't matter how close to zero it
is, because any sufficiently fast machine could do it. Sealed bid auctions
do not have this duration. A person or machine would require time travel in
order to react to a bid. Not even an infinitely fast machine could do it.
Superman could win any sealed-bid auction he wanted to.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
5:37 a.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Superman could win any sealed-bid auction he wanted
to.
Didn't know Superman collecting old computer but if so....
<Lex Luther>
All I have to do is find a PDP-1, hide small peices of Kyptonite in it and
then let Superman use his powers to win it.
Once he has it and is examining it, the Kyptonite will kill/disable him and
I shall rule the world
<Evil Laugh> Ha Ha Ha </Evil Laugh>
</Lex Luther>
Bye,
Deano
4:33 a.m.
On Sunday, April 27, 2003, steve wrote:
Not true! I can bid at 1 to 2 seconds left and no proxy bidding software
is going to have time to see my bid posted, download the new web page,
process the data, calculate a new bid and upload the new data, all withing
1 second.
But aside from that, NO software works that way. They work by simply
placing their bid, one time, just at the end. None look for a bid and
make a change. And no person can react in that amount of time. Upload
and download times are far slower than the fastest machine. Machine speed
is irrelevant.
I would bet monet that no person ever sees a bid placed with 2 or 3
seconds left that has time to react and change their bid.
Ebay always hides the the current highest bid,
It doesn't matter how close to
zero it is, because any sufficiently fast machine could do it. Sealed
bid auctions do not have this duration. A person or machine would
require time travel in order to react to a bid. Not even an infinitely
fast machine could do it.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
4:47 a.m.
Here is another interesting thing about sniping. I hear people all the
time saying that sniping hurts sellers.
However, I have never seen a seller that doesn't like sniping. It's
always a bidder that complains and never the experienced seller.
6:01 a.m.
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Mike wrote:
I would bet monet that no person ever sees a bid
placed with 2 or 3
seconds left that has time to react and change their bid.
How much monet?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
5:14 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage
Computer Festival
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 10:57 AM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: eBay sniping
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Mike wrote:
One clod.
I would bet monet that no person ever sees a bid
placed with 2 or 3
seconds left that has time to react and change their bid.
How much monet?
6:33 a.m.
On Monday, April 28, 2003, Mike wrote:
Not true! I can bid at 1 to 2 seconds left and no
proxy bidding software
is going to have time to see my bid posted, download the new web page,
process the data, calculate a new bid and upload the new data, all withing
1 second.
See, you're talking practical. I was talking theoretical -- it's easier to
argue my point when computers are infinitely fast. :-)
--
Jeffrey Sharp
7:15 a.m.
No criticism to any individual intended - it's to this stupid
thread. On and on about sniping.
I would bet monet that no person ever sees a bid
placed
with 2 or 3 seconds left that has time to react and change
their bid.
I would bet that many persons have tried things like this - I
have. The adrenaline rush for many must be comparable
to day trading or casino gambling, both activities that don't
seem to me to be anything to be proud of, and need I say
that they both tend to set up their practictioners for greater
and greater losses.
Perhaps the popularity of this thread just attests to the thrill
of the eBay adrenaline rush. Realize what activities are
mindless, and curb them.
What I do: Know your limit, Bid your limit, Win or Lose,
and be done with it.
John A.
24 Apr
24 Apr
11 a.m.
Ebay's auctions are like what I have seen called "silent auctions" I once
frequented coin shops that held these auctions, and at friday night at 7pm,
they would close the shop for 10 minutes clean of the auction board, and
then collect the proceeds. You could consign your stuff, or buy theirs. They
had the coins in bags stapled to bid cards. you wrote your # and bid on the
back. had to exceed the previous by a percentage. sound familiar?
only thing was, sniping went on in person and with some heated arguments.
but it just made for a really smelly loud 20 minutes before 7pm, and lots of
frantic scribbleing as the auctions ran down. and you could cuss the guy who
was bidding on your 1960D proof silver dime.
anyway, point being there is no ethical reason to ban sniping. And the format
is a monitored silent auction (no auctioneer) so there has to be a way to call
the bidding, since the auctioneer is not there to force it to a close.
Jim
7907
days inactive
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27 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
allain＠panix.com -
avickers＠solutionengineers.com -
deano＠rattie.demon.co.uk -
gkicomputers＠yahoo.com -
ipscone＠msdsite.com -
jpl15＠panix.com -
jss＠subatomix.com -
jwstephens＠cox.net -
pat＠purdueriots.com -
vaxzilla＠jarai.org -
vcf＠siconic.com -
wmsmith＠earthlink.net