28 Jul
2004
28 Jul
'04
6:22 a.m.
On Jul 28, 12:11, Joe R. wrote:
The problem is that AFIK no one has found ANY CD
disks that are
reliable. Several people that have been interviewed in national
publications explictly pointed out that they bought top quality disks
but
they were still unreliable. In fact, it didn't
appear that there was
much
difference between the cheap ones and the expensive
ones.
The other day I came across a table from a report showing the relative
longevity of data on various media (DLT, CD-R, etc) at a variety of
temperatures and humidities. I'll try and find it again and post some
of the results. Some of you might be shocked. For example, a CD-R
with an expected lifetime of something like 25 years (if I'm not
misremembering the highest figure) under ideal conditions has a
lifetime of only several *months* at higher temperatures (upper 20s C,
that would be 80s F) and humidity. DLTs fared much much better.
I have some CDs that were bought about 8 years ago because they were
supposedly good quality, and burned in a highly-rated burner. Out of
the first batch of ten, 4 are now unreadable or give multiple errors.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
28 Jul
28 Jul
6:51 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Turnbull" <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Article on data rot on CD's
On Jul 28, 12:11, Joe R. wrote:
Did the table show any data for what the actual failure mode of the CDs was?
Heat and humidity oxidizing the reflective coating will kill a cd very
quickly, but this assumes moisture can get through the protective coating. I
would also like to know what affect printable adhesive labels have on media
along with permanent markers used for labeling. Having a tested 25yr life on
media doesn't mean much if a felt tipped sharpie marker can ruin a cd in a
year or if the glue on a label can do the same. I have cds burned back in
the mid 90's from a HP4020i 2x burner that was $1200 at the time and only
had 1 failure that I know about and that was a backup OS cd I made that got
beat around and scratched for years.
The problem is that AFIK no one has found ANY
CD disks that are
reliable. Several people that have been interviewed in national
publications explictly pointed out that they bought top quality disks
but
they were still unreliable. In fact, it
didn't appear that there was
much
difference between the cheap ones and the
expensive ones.
The other day I came across a table from a report showing the relative
longevity of data on various media (DLT, CD-R, etc) at a variety of
temperatures and humidities. I'll try and find it again and post some
of the results. Some of you might be shocked. For example, a CD-R
with an expected lifetime of something like 25 years (if I'm not
misremembering the highest figure) under ideal conditions has a
lifetime of only several *months* at higher temperatures (upper 20s C,
that would be 80s F) and humidity. DLTs fared much much better.
I have some CDs that were bought about 8 years ago because they were
supposedly good quality, and burned in a highly-rated burner. Out of
the first batch of ten, 4 are now unreadable or give multiple errors.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
7:12 a.m.
>>>> "Teo" == Teo Zenios
<teoz(a)neo.rr.com> writes:
Teo> .... I would also like to know what
Teo> affect printable adhesive labels have on media...
I have a simpler rule for those: "just say NO". I adopted that years
ago when a CD drive almost rattled itself to pieces reading a CD with
a sticky label on it. Even though the label appeared to be centered,
it was sufficiently out of balance to make horrible vibration (and, of
course, read errors). Add the fact that you will definite run into
trouble when things get warm and the glue melts.
In my opinion, there is NO excuse for those labels. None.
paul
7:22 a.m.
Pete Turnbull wrote:
On Jul 28, 12:11, Joe R. wrote:
Hmm, I can easily check this. I have several hundred CD-Rs that are
obsoleted data backups in my garage. In south central Texas, that means
that they've spent 2-5 years in an uncontrolled climate, with 8 months a
year being over 90F in the garage and near constantly at 50-90%
humidity. If your info is correct, they should pretty much all be useless.
Umm, no matter whether those CDs in my garage are still good, I vote
for magtape or acid-free paper for any long-term archival. There's no
comparison and no debate in our company. We use CDR for easy retrieval
in the short term, and tape for the real backups.
Doc
The problem is that AFIK no one has found ANY
CD disks that are
reliable. Several people that have been interviewed in national
publications explictly pointed out that they bought top quality disks
but
they were still unreliable. In fact, it didn't
appear that there was
much
difference between the cheap ones and the
expensive ones.
The other day I came across a table from a report showing the relative
longevity of data on various media (DLT, CD-R, etc) at a variety of
temperatures and humidities. I'll try and find it again and post some
of the results. Some of you might be shocked. For example, a CD-R
with an expected lifetime of something like 25 years (if I'm not
misremembering the highest figure) under ideal conditions has a
lifetime of only several *months* at higher temperatures (upper 20s C,
that would be 80s F) and humidity. DLTs fared much much better.
7:32 a.m.
>>>> "Doc" == Doc Shipley
<doc(a)mdrconsult.com> writes:
Doc> Umm, no matter whether those CDs in my garage are still good, I
Doc> vote for magtape or acid-free paper for any long-term archival.
Doc> There's no comparison and no debate in our company. We use CDR
Doc> for easy retrieval in the short term, and tape for the real
Doc> backups.
Unless you're *very* careful, magtapes aren't much good beyond a
decade or so.
paul
8:14 a.m.
Paul Koning wrote:
Yep. I worked for a research lab at University of Texas for a couple
of years. All "relevant data" on state-funded projects must be archived
for 40 years. At the time, the Library of Congress was the accredited
authority on proper media and storage. (I expect that it still is.)
My department had always followed those guidelines faithfully.
Still, soon after I took over the subnet, the very first time they were
asked by the state to provide archived files we were unable to produce.
All the *tapes* had been stored properly, but all the machines with
compatible *drives* had been surplussed long since, and the backup
software junked. It was my first experience in data recovery and
migration, and one that I've since learned is very common. Perversely,
I seem to have developed a taste for it. :)
Doc
>>>>"Doc" == Doc Shipley <doc(a)mdrconsult.com> writes:
Doc> Umm, no matter whether those CDs in my garage are still good, I
Doc> vote for magtape or acid-free paper for any long-term archival.
Doc> There's no comparison and no debate in our company. We use CDR
Doc> for easy retrieval in the short term, and tape for the real
Doc> backups.
Unless you're *very* careful, magtapes aren't much good beyond a
decade or so. 
8:32 a.m.
jjd wrote:
On Wed, 2004-07-28 at 16:14, Doc Shipley wrote:
Yeah, and you can probably guess which software they junked, if I
tell you the backups were done on PeeCees running Windows, with QIC80
and 120 floppy-interface drives.
Fortunately, our lab was right beside the surplus barn and the first
computer I found with the right drive also had Jumbo still installed.
All I had to do was add an ethernet card and map a server drive.
Yes, it was still an all-Windows shop and probably still is, and yes,
they were still using a different off-the-shelf proprietary backup tool.
Some directors are just incapable of learning.
Doc
Paul Koning wrote:
and the backup software junked.
I laugh at those who criticized me for backing up my system with tar :) 
9:45 a.m.
jjd wrote:
On Wed, 2004-07-28 at 16:14, Doc Shipley wrote:
it's funny, tar seems to be the one thing that still works, despite many other
pieces of backup software (and even compression programs)...
humm... those tape drives are looking better and better...
(and my 9-track's working fine! :-)
-brad
Paul Koning wrote:
and the backup software junked.
I laugh at those who criticized me for backing up my system with tar :) 
10:28 p.m.
New subject: tar (was: Re: Article on data rot on CD's)
On Wed, 2004-07-28 at 21:45, Brad Parker wrote:
jjd wrote:
Indeed. Doesn't tar have issues over 2GB archive sizes though, where
each vendor introduced their own proprietary extensions to allow it to
cope? I'm sure I recall something about that a few years ago, but I'm
not sure what the 'real' problems are.
I'm not sure what the pathname length limit is for tar either (and
whether it's platform-specific). Only reason I mention that is because I
archived my mail folders (Evolution, Redhat 9) a few weeks ago using tar
in verbose mode, and it was truncating some of the file/pathnames *on
screen*. I don't know if it was doing the same for the actual files or
not as I ended up creating the archive from a directory closer to the
actual data I was archiving, so the paths weren't quite as long. Seeing
stuff truncated was a little disconcerting though if it was actually
doing the same to archive files - I'm sure lots of people use tar
without the verbose switch...
Anyone got any pointers to a good site stating the different limitations
of tar for different vendors / releases? For peace of mind I'd like to
know that my enormous archive created on system bar will work on system
foo in ten years time... :-)
cheers
Jules
On Wed, 2004-07-28 at 16:14, Doc Shipley wrote:
it's funny, tar seems to be the one thing that still works, despite many other
pieces of backup software (and even compression programs)... Paul Koning wrote:
and the backup software junked.
I laugh at those who criticized me for backing up my system with tar :) 
29 Jul
29 Jul
3:47 a.m.
New subject: tar (was: Re: Article on data rot on CD's)
I laugh at those who criticized me for backing up my
system with tar :)
it's funny, tar seems to be the one thing that still works,
[...] I'm not sure what the pathname length limit is for
tar either
100 characters. Some versions of tar (mine, GNU) use various
extensions to effectively raise this limit; others break in various
ways on pathnames that exceed it - or, in particularly bad
implementations, approach it too closely.
I would really like to find a spec for the tar format. Everyone waves
hands and talks about this standard and that, but I've never actually
managed to track down a spec.
Anyone got any pointers to a good site stating the
different
limitations of tar for different vendors / releases?
I don't know about a "site", but Elizabeth Zwicky, years ago, did a
lovely little paper called _Torture-testing Backup and Archive
Programs: Things You Ought to Know But Probably Would Rather Not_.
According to the (paper) copy I have, it was presented at LISA V in
1991. While some of the programs listed have doubtless had new
versions released in the more than a decade since then, others (such as
SunOS tar) which many classiccmpers are likely to be using haven't.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
28 Jul
28 Jul
8:38 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc Shipley" <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
To: <General(a)mdrconsult.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Article on data rot on CD's
Paul Koning wrote:
Yep. I worked for a research lab at University of Texas for a couple
of years. All "relevant data" on state-funded projects must be archived
for 40 years. At the time, the Library of Congress was the accredited
authority on proper media and storage. (I expect that it still is.)
My department had always followed those guidelines faithfully.
Still, soon after I took over the subnet, the very first time they were
asked by the state to provide archived files we were unable to produce.
All the *tapes* had been stored properly, but all the machines with
compatible *drives* had been surplussed long since, and the backup
software junked. It was my first experience in data recovery and
migration, and one that I've since learned is very common. Perversely,
I seem to have developed a taste for it. :)
Doc
You would think the drives making the backups and the original software
would have been removed and placed in the vault with the media. Did some of
the older tape drives have problems reading tapes from different machines
because of head alignment?
Back when I was young and broke I used a utility to format 360K 5.25" DD
disks to 800K to save money (720K 3.5" disks were expensive back then), I
was smart enough to save the program (and the TSR that made the computer
able to read the disks) on a standard 720K disk so that even now I can read
the 800K formatted floppies as needed.
I keep all my old tape backup drives on the shelf, and that came in handy
last year when an old buddy sent me 100 Colorado QIC 120mb tapes with old
games stored on them since early 90's (he had junked his drive a long time
ago). I was able to read every one of them no problems on my dusty old
drive. Finding media for old drives is easier then finding the drives
themselves.
>>>>"Doc" == Doc Shipley <doc(a)mdrconsult.com> writes:
Doc> Umm, no matter whether those CDs in my garage are still good, I
Doc> vote for magtape or acid-free paper for any long-term archival.
Doc> There's no comparison and no debate in our company. We use CDR
Doc> for easy retrieval in the short term, and tape for the real
Doc> backups.
Unless you're *very* careful, magtapes aren't much good beyond a
decade or so.
9:16 a.m.
Teo Zenios wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc Shipley" <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
> My department had always followed those
guidelines faithfully.
>Still, soon after I took over the subnet, the very first time they were
>asked by the state to provide archived files we were unable to produce.
> All the *tapes* had been stored properly, but all the machines with
>compatible *drives* had been surplussed long since, and the backup
>software junked. It was my first experience in data recovery and
>migration, and one that I've since learned is very common. Perversely,
>I seem to have developed a taste for it. :)
You would think the drives making the backups and the
original software
would have been removed and placed in the vault with the media. Did some of
the older tape drives have problems reading tapes from different machines
because of head alignment?
No problems with any of the 200-300 tapes I migrated, over two years'
time. And yes, you would think, unless you stop to think that the IT
for that department had been under the management of an archeology
student who "knew a lot about computers". They just never equated the
tapes in storage with the hardware going out the door.
That scenario is a *lot* more common than it ought to be.
Another one is that of an architect for whom I built a file server
and backup server a few years ago. He had an Iomega 800MB parallel port
tape drive (Travan 1, were they?) and insisted on using it, and the
Iomega software, for the whole office backups.
I begged him through 3 years and a couple of major upgrades to spend
a few hundred dollars on a good refurbed SCSI tape drive. DDS2 or an
Exabyte 8505 would have done him just fine. He couldn't afford "all
that money to buy something I already have". He also never had the
money to pay me to test the DR plan or backups. He had to get back a
trashed or deleted drawing now and then, and considered that
verification of his backups.
About 2 years ago he called and he had crashed a disk, and he was
having trouble getting his files back off of tape. It turned out that
he'd been cleaning the tape drive as instructed, and rotating tapes on
schedule. Rotating the same 10 travan tapes for 4.5 years.
There were places on those tapes you could see through. We didn't
get any data back that was less than 6 months old. It nearly put him
out of business.
Doc
9:50 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc Shipley" <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
To: <General(a)mdrconsult.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Article on data rot on CD's
Shouldn't he have a permanent backup tape every so often in the cycle? If
you screw up or delete a file and don't notice it quickly it will get lost
in the rotating cycle. The major problem I see companies forgetting is
offsite storage of backups in case of fire or something like that. Most
companies would not survive a fire because their financial backups would be
gone.
Teo Zenios wrote:
of
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc Shipley" <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
> My department had always followed those
guidelines faithfully.
>Still, soon after I took over the subnet, the very first time they were
>asked by the state to provide archived files we were unable to produce.
> All the *tapes* had been stored properly, but all the machines with
>compatible *drives* had been surplussed long since, and the backup
>software junked. It was my first experience in data recovery and
>migration, and one that I've since learned is very common. Perversely,
>I seem to have developed a taste for it. :)
> You would think the drives making the backups and the original software
> would have been removed and placed in the vault with the media. Did some > the older tape drives have problems reading tapes
from different
machines
because of
head alignment?
No problems with any of the 200-300 tapes I migrated, over two years'
time. And yes, you would think, unless you stop to think that the IT
for that department had been under the management of an archeology
student who "knew a lot about computers". They just never equated the
tapes in storage with the hardware going out the door.
That scenario is a *lot* more common than it ought to be.
Another one is that of an architect for whom I built a file server
and backup server a few years ago. He had an Iomega 800MB parallel port
tape drive (Travan 1, were they?) and insisted on using it, and the
Iomega software, for the whole office backups.
I begged him through 3 years and a couple of major upgrades to spend
a few hundred dollars on a good refurbed SCSI tape drive. DDS2 or an
Exabyte 8505 would have done him just fine. He couldn't afford "all
that money to buy something I already have". He also never had the
money to pay me to test the DR plan or backups. He had to get back a
trashed or deleted drawing now and then, and considered that
verification of his backups.
About 2 years ago he called and he had crashed a disk, and he was
having trouble getting his files back off of tape. It turned out that
he'd been cleaning the tape drive as instructed, and rotating tapes on
schedule. Rotating the same 10 travan tapes for 4.5 years.
There were places on those tapes you could see through. We didn't
get any data back that was less than 6 months old. It nearly put him
out of business.
Doc
10:17 a.m.
Teo Zenios wrote:
Shouldn't he have a permanent backup tape every so
often in the cycle? If
you screw up or delete a file and don't notice it quickly it will get lost
in the rotating cycle. The major problem I see companies forgetting is
offsite storage of backups in case of fire or something like that. Most
companies would not survive a fire because their financial backups would be
gone.
Just try to convince the owner of a struggling small business that
the money poured down that drain is well-spent. Yes, he should be doing
a permanent archive at least monthly, and yes, you should rotate tapes
*out* after X reads or writes. Value of X depends on the media type,
and as far as I'm concerned, Iomega's early Travan tapes were good for
one write, and *possibly* one read.
He was doing a permanent archive every 6 months "or so". He couldn't
be bothered to buy a new set of 6-8 tapes every month for the full
backup, and I'm sure he was having trouble finding them.
<rant>
My company is a Tivoli reseller and service partner, and TSM is my
boss's specialty. I've heard every reason in the book for scrimping on
data protection, and they all boil down to the same thing. Non-techie
management honestly believes that if all their IT people are doing their
jobs, and all their expensive storage toys are doing _their_ jobs, and
all that shiney expensive software is doing _its_ job, tape backups are
expensive, obsolete, and useless.
To make things much worse, there are any number of little
garage-based companies building cheap NAS/SAN solutions, and even more
storage sales folk from reputable companies, who will tell a VP exactly
that - that magnetic media is dead. Simply because they get commission
selling disk space, not tape.
I'm all in favor of disk-based backups, mirrors, snapshots, backups
to CD-R/DVD-R, etc. They're cheap, simple, and very useful. They just
don't, can't, and never will do the whole job.
</rant>
I'll shut up now.
Doc
11:02 a.m.
it frustrates me to see the company i work for still reliant on nightly
backups (about 1.5gb) of sales data on obsolite drives and tapes (last
mass made around 15yrs ago!) and refusing to change type to a newer
reliable medium because of cost, dispite the cost of replacing them is
less than the cost of one call out for each crash caused by fault
hardware - this amounts to several hundreds ??? each time due to lost
data, and the cost of lost sales while engineers (contracted only)
arrive to reboot and verify data on each tape, this system is over 25
yrs old and it's been patched up so many times it starting to look like
a microshafting took place. it's so old one of the terminals in one
store was opened to find some document dated 1980 slid inside and was
the cause of the extra heat as it had stopped the fan from working and
the extra dust had just caused it give up!
we have major crashes on average once every 3 or 4 months and minor ones
every 2 or 3 weeks. it's a sorry state when the accountant with his
abacus can run EVERY part of the company!
i feel it should be a legal requirement to have data backups and
off-site backups too, but not until i invest in that little data storage
company.......
DJ
M1DLG
Doc Shipley wrote:
Teo Zenios wrote:
Shouldn't he have a permanent backup tape
every so often in the
cycle? If
you screw up or delete a file and don't notice it quickly it will get
lost
in the rotating cycle. The major problem I see companies forgetting is
offsite storage of backups in case of fire or something like that. Most
companies would not survive a fire because their financial backups
would be
gone.
Just try to convince the owner of a struggling small business that
the money poured down that drain is well-spent. Yes, he should be
doing a permanent archive at least monthly, and yes, you should rotate
tapes *out* after X reads or writes. Value of X depends on the media
type, and as far as I'm concerned, Iomega's early Travan tapes were
good for one write, and *possibly* one read.
He was doing a permanent archive every 6 months "or so". He
couldn't be bothered to buy a new set of 6-8 tapes every month for the
full backup, and I'm sure he was having trouble finding them.
<rant>
My company is a Tivoli reseller and service partner, and TSM is my
boss's specialty. I've heard every reason in the book for scrimping
on data protection, and they all boil down to the same thing.
Non-techie management honestly believes that if all their IT people
are doing their jobs, and all their expensive storage toys are doing
_their_ jobs, and all that shiney expensive software is doing _its_
job, tape backups are expensive, obsolete, and useless.
To make things much worse, there are any number of little
garage-based companies building cheap NAS/SAN solutions, and even more
storage sales folk from reputable companies, who will tell a VP
exactly that - that magnetic media is dead. Simply because they get
commission selling disk space, not tape.
I'm all in favor of disk-based backups, mirrors, snapshots, backups
to CD-R/DVD-R, etc. They're cheap, simple, and very useful. They
just don't, can't, and never will do the whole job.
</rant>
I'll shut up now.
Doc
31 Jul
31 Jul
2:49 p.m.
At 12:02 AM 7/29/04 +0100, you wrote:
it frustrates me to see the company i work for still
reliant on nightly
backups (about 1.5gb) of sales data on obsolite drives and tapes (last
mass made around 15yrs ago!) and refusing to change type to a newer
reliable medium because of cost, dispite the cost of replacing them is
less than the cost of one call out for each crash caused by fault
hardware - this amounts to several hundreds ??? each time due to lost
data, and the cost of lost sales while engineers (contracted only)
arrive to reboot and verify data on each tape, this system is over 25
yrs old and it's been patched up so many times it starting to look like
a microshafting took place. it's so old one of the terminals in one
store was opened to find some document dated 1980 slid inside and was
the cause of the extra heat as it had stopped the fan from working and
the extra dust had just caused it give up!
we have major crashes on average once every 3 or 4 months and minor ones
every 2 or 3 weeks. it's a sorry state when the accountant with his
abacus can run EVERY part of the company!
Welcome to big business in the 1990s! That's the reason that Martin
Marietta, IBM, HP, Tektronix (just to name a few) are all going to hell!
Joe
3:47 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe R." <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: Article on data rot on CD's
At 12:02 AM 7/29/04 +0100, you wrote:
Those companies always had bean counters, but they were held in check by
management that was made up of engineers/sales/qc people who went up the
ladder. Today these companies are run by MBA's who never worked the line and
don't know the products or the customers very well. It also has to do with
the greed these people have that allows them to plunder the company in the
short term and leave, CEO's don't stick around long these days and don't
care about long term growth.
it frustrates me to see the company i work for
still reliant on nightly
backups (about 1.5gb) of sales data on obsolite drives and tapes (last
mass made around 15yrs ago!) and refusing to change type to a newer
reliable medium because of cost, dispite the cost of replacing them is
less than the cost of one call out for each crash caused by fault
hardware - this amounts to several hundreds ??? each time due to lost
data, and the cost of lost sales while engineers (contracted only)
arrive to reboot and verify data on each tape, this system is over 25
yrs old and it's been patched up so many times it starting to look like
a microshafting took place. it's so old one of the terminals in one
store was opened to find some document dated 1980 slid inside and was
the cause of the extra heat as it had stopped the fan from working and
the extra dust had just caused it give up!
we have major crashes on average once every 3 or 4 months and minor ones
every 2 or 3 weeks. it's a sorry state when the accountant with his
abacus can run EVERY part of the company!
Welcome to big business in the 1990s! That's the reason that Martin
Marietta, IBM, HP, Tektronix (just to name a few) are all going to hell!
Joe
7:02 p.m.
FYI: A couple of old Compucolor (Intelligent Systems Corporation) items
on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
(Software)
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
(External floppy drive)
Man, I wish I still had my Compucolor II and all the software I had
written for it; I stupidly disposed of all of it back in 1985. It was a
flimsily-made computer, but it was my first microcomputer and I really
loved it. Hopefully, comeone on this list will be able to put these
items to use. I have no connection with the seller; I have a watch out
on eBay just in case a Compucolor II comes up for bidding at a
reasonable price...
-Tom
1 Aug
1 Aug
6:20 a.m.
On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tom Hudson wrote:
FYI: A couple of old Compucolor (Intelligent Systems
Corporation) items
on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
(Software)
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
(External floppy drive)
Man, I wish I still had my Compucolor II and all the software I had
written for it; I stupidly disposed of all of it back in 1985. It was a
flimsily-made computer, but it was my first microcomputer and I really
loved it. Hopefully, comeone on this list will be able to put these
items to use. I have no connection with the seller; I have a watch out
on eBay just in case a Compucolor II comes up for bidding at a
reasonable price...
Just think of all the Compucolors in the TV section of thrift shops that
have been passed up by collectors over the years and subsequently junked
:(
One collector that I used to know said he passed by a pile of junk with a
TV on the highway but decided to go back for some strange reason and found
that the TV was actually a Compucolor.
I got a fairly complete Compucolor a couple years back but it smoked upon
being powered up. I'll have to get to fixing it someday.
I'd really like to bid on the software up for auction so if someone wants
it worse than me, please let me know.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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6:54 a.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tom Hudson wrote:
...
I got a fairly complete Compucolor a couple years back
but it smoked upon
being powered up. I'll have to get to fixing it someday.
I'd really like to bid on the software up for auction so if someone wants
it worse than me, please let me know.
I'm the current bidder on those items. I plan on recovering the data
for use with the yet-to-be-written emulator, but if you want them, bid
on them, and eventually I'll find somebody else who can supply the disk
images. Beware that I'm willing to bid much higher than the current price!
31 Jul
31 Jul
7:04 p.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
(Oops, I mistakenly posted this earlier under the wrong subject. Sorry!)
FYI: A couple of old Compucolor (Intelligent Systems Corporation) items
on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
(Software)
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
(External floppy drive)
Man, I wish I still had my Compucolor II and all the software I had
written for it; I stupidly disposed of all of it back in 1985. It was a
flimsily-made computer, but it was my first microcomputer and I really
loved it. Hopefully, comeone on this list will be able to put these
items to use. I have no connection with the seller; I have a watch out
on eBay just in case a Compucolor II comes up for bidding at a
reasonable price...
-Tom
1 Aug
1 Aug
12:35 a.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
The compucolor II was the system I lusted after when I was a kid...but
my dad bought a TRS-80 instead.
Are there any CompuColor II manuals or emulators on line?
I heard there are quirks to the CompuColor Hardware - like the screen
buffer is actually used during floppy I/O.
-Chandra
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Hudson
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:05 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Compucolor items on eBay
(Oops, I mistakenly posted this earlier under the wrong subject.
Sorry!)
FYI: A couple of old Compucolor (Intelligent Systems Corporation) items
on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
757
(Software)
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
337
(External floppy drive)
Man, I wish I still had my Compucolor II and all the software I had
written for it; I stupidly disposed of all of it back in 1985. It was a
flimsily-made computer, but it was my first microcomputer and I really
loved it. Hopefully, comeone on this list will be able to put these
items to use. I have no connection with the seller; I have a watch out
on eBay just in case a Compucolor II comes up for bidding at a
reasonable price...
-Tom
3:50 a.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
For me, it was a choice between the Compucolor II and an Apple II. The
decision was based on the Compucolor's built-in RGB monitor vs. the
Apple's RF video output, which I felt was not as good-looking. That
plus the fact that I'd have to buy an expensive color TV as well as the
computer, and that would have broken my budget.
You're right about the quirks. The screen RAM was used as a buffer when
the floppy was doing certain operations. And the file system was truly
strange -- If you saved a file with the same name as an existing one, it
would leave the old one intact and create a new file with an incremental
version number. IIRC, that was a leftover from the 8-track file system
the previous version of the Compucolor used.
-Tom
Chandra Bajpai wrote:
The compucolor II was the system I lusted after when I
was a kid...but
my dad bought a TRS-80 instead.
Are there any CompuColor II manuals or emulators on line?
I heard there are quirks to the CompuColor Hardware - like the screen
buffer is actually used during floppy I/O.
6:34 a.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tom Hudson wrote:
You're right about the quirks. The screen RAM was
used as a buffer when
the floppy was doing certain operations. And the file system was truly
Incidentally, the Apple ][ also uses the screen buffer ($400-$800) as a
temporary disk buffer, but only the portions of the RAM that are not
mapped to the screen (there are actually 64 bytes in the buffer that you
don't see on the screen and that can be used for temporary data storage).
This is true with DOS 3.3. I'm not sure about ProDOS.
strange -- If you saved a file with the same name as
an existing one, it
would leave the old one intact and create a new file with an incremental
version number. IIRC, that was a leftover from the 8-track file system
the previous version of the Compucolor used.
"8-track" filesystem? As in tapes? More info please :)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
4:29 p.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
Yup, 8-track tapes. Take a look at
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=560. I never had
that version, mine had the 5.25" floppy, which stored a whopping 51.2K,
if memory serves.
Another fun quirk about the CCII was the fact that the circuit boards
were mounted into an unshielded plastic TV case, making it a very
effective public nuisance. My parents always knew when I was using the
thing because our living room TV's picture would get all sorts of
interference on it when the CCII was powered on! (They were annoyed a LOT)
-Tom
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
"8-track" filesystem? As in tapes? More
info please :)
5:05 p.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tom Hudson wrote:
Yup, 8-track tapes. Take a look at
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=560. I never had
that version, mine had the 5.25" floppy, which stored a whopping 51.2K,
if memory serves.
Cool!
What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape for storage? I
always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them
but until now I've never known of any examples.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
2 Aug
2 Aug
5:38 a.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
To be honest, I've never heard of any other computers using 8-tracks as
storage. Tape is bad enough, but the nature of 8-track architecture (no
rewind) would make usage of it almost completely untenable!
-Tom
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape
for storage? I
always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them
but until now I've never known of any examples.
7:09 a.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Tom Hudson wrote:
To be honest, I've never heard of any other
computers using 8-tracks as
storage. Tape is bad enough, but the nature of 8-track architecture (no
rewind) would make usage of it almost completely untenable!
Right, which makes it all the more surprising. Was it reliable? Did it
have a directory structure of any sort? Did it store multiple
programs/data per track?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
4 Aug
4 Aug
7:48 a.m.
New subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay
Wang used an 8-track-type cartridge for data and/or program storage. I
don't know what machine they are for.
I have a couple, to use in an art project (for data storage, not some
stupid collage), because they are beautiful -- 100% transparent plastic,
and instead of reels, an endless loop serpentine-tangle-stacked into the
case. I believe these tapes contain feature-data or fonts or whatever
since they are so short, but I'm just guessing.
Don't think those home tape-deck jobs with the book of matches to align
the head... think radio station cart recorders. Much solider (sic)
construction, though the data architecture still sucks rocks!
tomj
On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 10:38, Tom Hudson wrote:
To be honest, I've never heard of any other
computers using 8-tracks as
storage. Tape is bad enough, but the nature of 8-track architecture (no
rewind) would make usage of it almost completely untenable!
-Tom
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
>What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape for storage? I
>always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them
>but until now I've never known of any examples.
>
>
>
9:12 a.m.
New subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay
I have a couple, to use in an art project (for data
storage, not some
stupid collage), because they are beautiful -- 100% transparent plastic,
and instead of reels, an endless loop serpentine-tangle-stacked into the
That reminds me of something similar I've seen done on a much larger
scale.
The Conductron-Missouri 727 flight simulator I used to work on used a
Varian 610 for the visual system (Vital I is what I think the image
generator system was named) on the sim. It could display 1024 pixels at
once. Scene data consisted of the runway and taxiway outlines plus
relevant radio navigation data. It was all stored on a paper tape
"cartridge" that was hand made. It was roughly four feet tall and about
30 inches wide. The cartridge sides were plywood on the back and clear
plexiglass on the front. The paper tape was tangle-stacked like you
described above. It was pretty neat to watch. There was a notch at the
top that would accomodate the tape reader head and it was otherwise fully
enclosed.
I can't check right now, but I may have a picture of it at
http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/BehindTheScenes
The 727 (complete and working) went for $1000 at a bankruptcy auction last
summer. :(
g.
10:02 a.m.
New subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay
The 8-Track Wang cartridges were not used (to my knowledge) on computers,
but on
the Wang 380 Programmer for the Wang 300-Series electronic calculators.
The 380 was a keyboard which plugged into a Wang 300-series electronics
package that provided a means by which programs could be recorded step at a
time
onto the 8-Track tape cartridge. Then, the programs could be played back.
The drive was incremental, meaning that it'd advance a little bit for each
step of
the program. As I recall, the advance mechanism wasn't a motor, but rather
a solenoid
activated ratchet mechanism that could step the tape along a bit at a time.
I believe that the drive could step both forward and backward, allowing
looping to occur (albeit rather slowly).
A few folks that I've been in contact with have managed to find Wang 380's
(Alas, I don't
have one yet), and have not been able to find the correct cartridges, but
have found that
taking old music 8-Track cartridges and cutting down the length of the tape
(a long tape won't
advance properly) will work as a suitable replacement.
You can see some pix of the Wang 380 at
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/w-wang380.html
-Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Web Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jennings" <tomj(a)wps.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 12:48 PM
Subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay
Wang used an 8-track-type cartridge for data and/or
program storage. I
don't know what machine they are for.
I have a couple, to use in an art project (for data storage, not some
stupid collage), because they are beautiful -- 100% transparent plastic,
and instead of reels, an endless loop serpentine-tangle-stacked into the
case. I believe these tapes contain feature-data or fonts or whatever
since they are so short, but I'm just guessing.
Don't think those home tape-deck jobs with the book of matches to align
the head... think radio station cart recorders. Much solider (sic)
construction, though the data architecture still sucks rocks!
tomj
On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 10:38, Tom Hudson wrote:
> To be honest, I've never heard of any other computers using 8-tracks as
> storage. Tape is bad enough, but the nature of 8-track architecture (no
> rewind) would make usage of it almost completely untenable!
>
> -Tom
>
> Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
>
> >What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape for storage? I
> >always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used
them
>but until
now I've never known of any examples.
>
>
>
2:47 p.m.
New subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Rick Bensene wrote:
A few folks that I've been in contact with have
managed to find Wang
380's (Alas, I don't have one yet), and have not been able to find the
correct cartridges, but have found that taking old music 8-Track
cartridges and cutting down the length of the tape (a long tape won't
advance properly) will work as a suitable replacement.
You can see some pix of the Wang 380 at
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/w-wang380.html
Ah yes, I've got one. Mine is in about as ratty shape as the one in the
first photo. I'm not sure if I've got tapes for it though. I'll have to
check through some boxes as I just might have one or two.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
8 Aug
8 Aug
7:28 a.m.
New subject: "8-track" data tapes, was Re: Compucolor items on eBay
On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 15:02, Rick Bensene wrote:
The 8-Track Wang cartridges were not used (to my
knowledge) on computers,
but on
the Wang 380 Programmer for the Wang 300-Series electronic calculators.
Thanks for the info! If the cartridges are of any interest I'll keep my
eyes open for them.
2 Aug
2 Aug
10:18 a.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
What, if any, other computers also used 8-track tape
for storage? I
always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them
but until now I've never known of any examples.
Off-subject, but the Exidy Sorcerer ROM cartridges were houses in
slightly modifed 8-track tape cases. There was a card-edge at the end
where you'd expect to find the tape.
-tony
1:16 p.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
Yes, I met a former engineer from Exidy who explained that story. He said
they scored something like 10,000 empty 8-track shell casings when
8-track tapes were on their way out in the late 1970s. They hired a kid
to router out the interior and then the PCBs were set in place.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
What, if any,
other computers also used 8-track tape for storage? I
always figured there had to have been at least one computer that used them
but until now I've never known of any examples.
Off-subject, but the Exidy Sorcerer ROM cartridges were houses in
slightly modifed 8-track tape cases. There was a card-edge at the end
where you'd expect to find the tape.
4:19 p.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
Yes, I met a former engineer from Exidy who explained
that story. He said
they scored something like 10,000 empty 8-track shell casings when
8-track tapes were on their way out in the late 1970s. They hired a kid
to router out the interior and then the PCBs were set in place.
The couple I have look more like they were done with a hacksaw and file.
Well done they are not!
-tony
6:06 p.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
Are they actual Exidy carts or some homebrew units? They were hard to
homebrew.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Yes, I met a
former engineer from Exidy who explained that story. He said
they scored something like 10,000 empty 8-track shell casings when
8-track tapes were on their way out in the late 1970s. They hired a kid
to router out the interior and then the PCBs were set in place.
The couple I have look more like they were done with a hacksaw and file.
Well done they are not!
3 Aug
3 Aug
10:33 a.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
The couple I
have look more like they were done with a hacksaw and file.
Well done they are not!
Are they actual Exidy carts or some homebrew units? They were hard to
homebrew. 
8:20 p.m.
New subject: Exidy software, was Compucolor items on eBay
--On Tuesday, August 03, 2004 23:33:18 +0100 Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I beleive they're both genuine Exidy ones, although the ROMs in one
were replaced by EPROMs (I have the mask-programmed ROMs somewhere
too).
Mine are rather like that too. Tony, are both of yours Exidy Standard
BASIC, or do you have a WP Pac or a DevPac?
Does anyone have WP or DevPac manuals?
--
Pete Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York, UK
The couple I have look more like they were done with a
hacksaw
and file. Well done they are not!
Are they actual Exidy carts or some homebrew units? They were hard
to homebrew. 
20 Aug
20 Aug
3:38 a.m.
New subject: Exidy software, was Compucolor items on eBay
I have an Exidy with S-100 and floppy drives. I have missed placed my
floppy
disks. They had CP/M, an editor, assembler compiler, and utilities. I would
be very interested in obtaining a copy of same. My floppies were 5.25,
single sided, 97K. John
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 2:20 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Exidy software, was Compucolor items on eBay
...........
Pete Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York, UK
3 Aug
3 Aug
8:22 p.m.
New subject: Exidy software, was Compucolor items on eBay
--On Tuesday, August 03, 2004 23:33:18 +0100 Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I beleive they're both genuine Exidy ones, although the ROMs in one
were replaced by EPROMs (I have the mask-programmed ROMs somewhere
too).
Mine are rather like that too. Tony, are both of yours Exidy Standard
BASIC, or do you have a WP Pac or a DevPac?
Does anyone have WP or DevPac manuals?
--
Pete Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York, UK
The couple I have look more like they were done with a
hacksaw
and file. Well done they are not!
Are they actual Exidy carts or some homebrew units? They were hard
to homebrew. 
12:31 p.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
The couple I have look more like they were done with a
hacksaw and file.
Well done they are not!
So either it was the young lad's first day on the
job or you scored a few he made late on a Friday
afternoon :-)
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
1 Aug
1 Aug
1:58 a.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
Tom Hudson wrote:
(Oops, I mistakenly posted this earlier under the
wrong subject. Sorry!)
FYI: A couple of old Compucolor (Intelligent Systems Corporation) items
on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
(Software)
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
(External floppy drive)
Man, I wish I still had my Compucolor II and all the software I had
written for it; I stupidly disposed of all of it back in 1985. It was a
flimsily-made computer, but it was my first microcomputer and I really
loved it. Hopefully, comeone on this list will be able to put these
items to use. I have no connection with the seller; I have a watch out
on eBay just in case a Compucolor II comes up for bidding at a
reasonable price...
-Tom
I have a compucolor II that was donated to me. It is next in the queue
of machines that I want to emulate. I think I have sufficient technical
docs to do it, but if anybody has software to share with me, it makes
the emulator more interesting for sure.
I still have one tasks left on my Sol-20 emulator (adding helios
emulation) and one major task left on my Wang 2200 emulator (getting the
VP mode going). Then it is the compucolor.
3:57 a.m.
New subject: Compucolor items on eBay
I assume your CCII is still working -- if so, you're very lucky. Mine
would blow up about every 9 months or so, and it got to the point where
I'd cringe every time I turned it on, waiting for smoke to come out of
it. The analog board driving the display had some really cute
tendencies, where one component would fail and then take out a number of
others in rapid succession.
I will look and see if somehow some of my Compucolor software survived.
I think I tossed it years ago, but I had some pretty cool stuff,
including an "Asteroids" game I wrote in assembler. You are welcome to
anything I can dig up -- I'll let you know if I find anything.
I used to have all the technical docs and a full set of "Colorcue"
newsletters that Compucolor put out; it's time to go look at my attic
archive...
-Tom
Jim Battle wrote:
I have a compucolor II that was donated to me. It is
next in the
queue of machines that I want to emulate. I think I have sufficient
technical docs to do it, but if anybody has software to share with me,
it makes the emulator more interesting for sure.
I still have one tasks left on my Sol-20 emulator (adding helios
emulation) and one major task left on my Wang 2200 emulator (getting
the VP mode going). Then it is the compucolor.
28 Jul
28 Jul
noon
At 22:50 28/07/2004, Teo wrote:
Shouldn't he have a permanent backup tape every so
often in the cycle? If
you screw up or delete a file and don't notice it quickly it will get lost
in the rotating cycle. The major problem I see companies forgetting is
offsite storage of backups in case of fire or something like that. Most
companies would not survive a fire because their financial backups would be
gone.
Back in my previous employment, we had a customer who were very strict on
doing backups (on DDS2) every night. Once done, the tapes were locked in
the safe, for security. Smallish thing, more of a fire-safe than anything
else.
Everything was fine... until the day they were broken into, and their
computers and server were stolen. And so was the safe!
We and they had some 6 hours of major panic as we hunted for any copies of
anything we could find (and we did find a several week old ad-hoc copy of
their data) until they got a call from the police saying they had found the
safe by a nearby railway line, complete with tapes still inside.
Subsequently, the tapes got taken home instead..
After this incident, all the computers were locked down in security
cabinets. The keys were all labeled up. And put in the replacement safe.
You can probably work out the story the next time they were broken into..
29 Jul
29 Jul
1:40 a.m.
>>>> "Rob" == Rob O'Donnell
<classiccmp.org(a)irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
Rob> At 22:50 28/07/2004, Teo wrote:
> Shouldn't he have a permanent backup tape
every so often in the
> cycle? If you screw up or delete a file and don't notice it
> quickly it will get lost in the rotating cycle. The major problem
> I see companies forgetting is offsite storage of backups in case
> of fire or something like that. Most companies would not survive a
> fire because their financial backups would be gone.
Rob> Back in my previous employment, we had a customer who were very
Rob> strict on doing backups (on DDS2) every night. Once done, the
Rob> tapes were locked in the safe, for security. Smallish thing,
Rob> more of a fire-safe than anything else.
Rob> Everything was fine... until the day they were broken into, and
Rob> their computers and server were stolen. And so was the safe!
That's why a safe chosen for burglar resistance (as opposed to fire
resistance) has to be either bolted to the building structure with big
bolts, or weigh 800+ pounds.
Another fun issue with fire-safes is that there are two kinds: one
suitable for paper, one suitable for computer media. The kind that is
meant for paper gets hot and humid in a fire, which will definitely
destroy the magnetic media inside.
paul
7195
days inactive
7218
days old
47 comments
23 participants
participants (23)
-
a.carlini＠ntlworld.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bips＠newmex.com -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
cbajpai＠comcast.net -
classiccmp.org＠irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
frustum＠pacbell.net -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
jim＠smithy.com -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
m1dlg＠soulwax.co.uk -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
pete＠dunnington.u-net.com -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
pnt1＠york.ac.uk -
rickb＠bensene.com -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
tomhudson＠execpc.com -
tomj＠wps.com -
vcf＠siconic.com