23 Jan
2018
23 Jan
'18
9:35 a.m.
?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell.
Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was looking for
various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I needed
to vent a little.
I sent him a polite ?no way in hell? response but I?m still angry about it. These
terminals are hard enough to find. And more often than not, the keyboard is
missing because some ?enthusiast? thought it would be cool to convert it to a PC
keyboard. ARG! And of course the keyboards that they want are the ?typewriter?
keyboards (all of my 3278 terminals have the ?data entry keyboard?).
TTFN - Guy
23 Jan
23 Jan
9:44 a.m.
On Jan 23, 2018, at 11:35 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in hell.
Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was looking for
various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I needed
to vent a little.
I sent him a polite ?no way in hell? response but I?m still angry about it. These
terminals are hard enough to find. And more often than not, the keyboard is
missing because some ?enthusiast? thought it would be cool to convert it to a PC
keyboard. ARG! And of course the keyboards that they want are the ?typewriter?
keyboards (all of my 3278 terminals have the ?data entry keyboard?).
One of them scrapped a Symbolics XL for the keyswitches. That would be bad enough, but it
gets worse - They did because they thought it was a CADR "Space Cadet? keyboard.
10:15 a.m.
On 01/23/2018 09:44 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote:
One of them scrapped a Symbolics XL for the
keyswitches. That would
be bad enough, but it gets worse - They did because they thought it
was a CADR "Space Cadet? keyboard.
Really, is this any worse than the gold
bugs scrapping whole systems for
the prospective precious metal content?
--Chuck
10:37 a.m.
I get these all the time with Lisp Machines. "Yo can I get a keyboard!"
UGH.
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 01/23/2018 09:44 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk
wrote:
--
Ian Finder
(206) 395-MIPS
ian.finder at gmail.com
One of them scrapped a Symbolics XL for the
keyswitches. That would
be bad enough, but it gets worse - They did because they thought it
was a CADR "Space Cadet? keyboard.
Really, is this any worse than the gold
bugs scrapping whole systems for
the prospective precious metal content?
--Chuck
11:32 a.m.
On Jan 23, 2018, at 12:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems for
the prospective precious metal content?
It seems worse to me because the gold bugs are ignorant and greedy but the keyboardists
are ?computer people? and should know better.
Also as far as I know the gold bugs don?t deliberately target rare systems for their
rarity.
11:37 a.m.
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Thanks, Daniel, for this succinct differentiation!
--
Ian Finder
(206) 395-MIPS
ian.finder at gmail.com
On Jan 23, 2018, at 12:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems for
the prospective precious metal content?
It seems worse to me because the gold bugs are ignorant and greedy but the
keyboardists are ?computer people? and should know better.
Also as far as I know the gold bugs don?t deliberately target rare systems
for their rarity.
24 Jan
24 Jan
10:28 a.m.
Sorry I was so late on this thread. I that it would be interesting to note that I had a
neighbor that was a scrapper. He'd used a jig and a band saw to remove the tantalum
capacitors and ICs from the boards. One day he had a number of STD buss boards I happened
to notice one of the parts he was stripping. It was a 80187 co-processor. I told him that
even if he melted this part down, it would only have 5 cents worth of gold in it. At that
time they were selling on ebay for $100+ ea. I told him that it wouldn't hurt to look
up some of the going prices for some of the chips on ebay. He had 10 of these parts. He
told me that it wasn't worth his time to look these up. A different mind set than me.
How many Mac's do you see on ebay with no keyboard?
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Ian Finder via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:37:14 AM
To: Daniel Seagraves; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts"
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Thanks, Daniel, for this succinct differentiation!
--
Ian Finder
(206) 395-MIPS
ian.finder at gmail.com
On Jan 23, 2018, at 12:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems for
the prospective precious metal content?
It seems worse to me because the gold bugs are ignorant and greedy but the
keyboardists are ?computer people? and should know better.
Also as far as I know the gold bugs don?t deliberately target rare systems
for their rarity.
10:42 a.m.
On 1/24/18 10:28 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
How many Mac's do you see on ebay with no
keyboard?
Lots
A keyboard/mouse seems to add $100 to the price
And there lots of keyboards with no Macs, especially the
second-generation extended ADB ones.
If there didn't seem to be a glut of them on the market,
I'd list the NIB ones I have.
11:03 a.m.
It's not just on ebay. I asked fellow collectors on 68kmla about their
machine to keyboard/mouse ratio and they all had more machines then
keyboards. Sooner or later machines will be useless because there are not
enough keyboards and mice to go around.
While I keep stacks of mac keyboards and mice in the garage and a stack of
AT and IBM Model M keyboards in the house I have very few USB keyboards for
more modern machines in my collection (mostly because by the time USB
keyboards were common they were cheap junk). Most of the PS/2 keyboards made
were also junk but I kept a few that were machine specific. I just use a KVM
with a USB to PS/2 adapter and a Model M keyboard plus USB Microsoft Optical
mouse (optical mice are better then the old ones with balls). I even keep
old ball mice around for that vintage feel and to match my systems (and
those do wear out). Amiga mice for one are pretty hard to find especially
the A1000 models with the angled plug.
I don't have a problem with people stealing keyboards and junking systems
when in all likelyhood the whole thing would get scrapped anyway. Many of
the local machines I have saved over the years were just too heavy to ship
and worthless at the time so they would have ended up in a dump anyway. How
many terminal collectors are there now compared to ten years ago or 20 when
terminal were more common? As keyboards are going up in value I suspect that
they just keep getting traded around kind of like computers themselves
(people buy them get bored and flip or trade them).
TZ
-----Original Message-----
From: dwight via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 1:28 PM
To: Ian Finder ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts"
How many Mac's do you see on ebay with no keyboard?
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Ian Finder via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:37:14 AM
To: Daniel Seagraves; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts"
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Thanks, Daniel, for this succinct differentiation!
--
Ian Finder
(206) 395-MIPS
ian.finder at gmail.com
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
On Jan 23, 2018, at 12:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems for
the prospective precious metal content?
It seems worse to me because the gold bugs are ignorant and greedy but the
keyboardists are ?computer people? and should know better.
Also as far as I know the gold bugs don?t deliberately target rare systems
for their rarity.
23 Jan
23 Jan
2:26 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in
hell.
Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was
looking for
various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I
needed
to vent a little.
I sent him a polite ?no way in hell? response but I?m still angry about
it. These
terminals are hard enough to find. And more often than not, the keyboard
is
missing because some ?enthusiast? thought it would be cool to convert it
to a PC
keyboard. ARG! And of course the keyboards that they want are the
?typewriter?
keyboards (all of my 3278 terminals have the ?data entry keyboard?).
In their defense (and yes, I think they are awful no good people), I guess
you can't fault them too much since up until fairly recently a quality
mechanical keyboard was either too expensive or practically impossible to
source for a modern computer, what with the obsession with flat square
keycaps with next to no travel, etc. At least now we are starting to get
some decent lower cost options in the marketplace as new. Maybe these new
keyboards will dissuade people from destroying rare artifacts.
2:31 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 5:26 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Guy Sotomayor via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
In their defense (and yes, I think they
are awful no good people), I guess
you can't fault them too much since up until fairly recently a quality
mechanical keyboard was either too expensive or practically impossible to
source for a modern computer, what with the obsession with flat square
keycaps with next to no travel, etc. At least now we are starting to get
some decent lower cost options in the marketplace as new. Maybe these new
keyboards will dissuade people from destroying rare artifacts.
Also - I should add the vendor at VCF SE did have new keyboards to sell
too, I think he was thinking the vintage people would like to see some
vintage keyboards to buy, and perhaps to marry back to their original
systems. I also think a lot of keyboard enthusiasts have no idea that
there is a historically-significant computer associated with the keyboard.
Ignorance is a factor.
I have come upon batches of keyboards with no machines in my travels, and I
have a few IBM terminal keyboards (newer type M's), but no one seemed to
want them unless I removed the RJ jack and put in a PS/2 jack.
Bill
?are the bane of my existence and should all rot
in hell.
<snip>
8:40 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in
hell.
Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was looking for
various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I needed
to vent a little.
Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a
perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I have
two terminals here that are missing the keyboards because some
"enthusiast" bought them out from under me during an eBay transaction.
So, now I have an Infoton and an IBM 3101 here that are completely
worthless because the keyboards are missing.
And I have no hope of ever finding replacements - especially for the
IBM 3101, because that's one of the ones the keyboard jerks really
seem to love because it's the older beam spring kind.
Grr.....
24 Jan
24 Jan
12:31 a.m.
ah ?do they ?don't ?just ?collect just loose keyboards ?they 'snatch'
?keyboards ?leaving the rest of the carcus ?to of the terminal to ?rot??
I knew this ?went on with front panels...
?
Ed#
?
In a message dated 1/23/2018 9:40:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at
classiccmp.org writes:
?
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in
hell.
Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was looking for
various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I needed
to vent a little.
Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a
perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I have
two terminals here that are missing the keyboards because some
"enthusiast" bought them out from under me during an eBay transaction.
So, now I have an Infoton and an IBM 3101 here that are completely
worthless because the keyboards are missing.
And I have no hope of ever finding replacements - especially for the
IBM 3101, because that's one of the ones the keyboard jerks really
seem to love because it's the older beam spring kind.
Grr.....
6:19 a.m.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:31 AM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
wrote:
ah do they don't just collect just loose
keyboards they 'snatch'
keyboards leaving the rest of the carcus to of the terminal to rot??
I suspect that the problem may be two-sided. Could be there are a fair
number of people that stash an old computer and toss the keyboards thinking
they can just use some off the shelf one later.
7:05 a.m.
On 2018-01-23 11:40 PM, Ian Primus via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor via
cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Well, if it's universally held to be desirable then there's a chance of
seeing one on a secondary market. But it probably therefore also be
overpriced.
Bloody wankers. Keyboard is the least interesting part of a system, I
don't understand the fetishisation.
--T
?are the bane of my existence and should all rot
in hell.
Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was looking for
various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could help him and I needed
to vent a little.
Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a
perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I have
two terminals here that are missing the keyboards because some
"enthusiast" bought them out from under me during an eBay transaction.
So, now I have an Infoton and an IBM 3101 here that are completely
worthless because the keyboards are missing.
And I have no hope of ever finding replacements - especially for the
IBM 3101, because that's one of the ones the keyboard jerks really
seem to love because it's the older beam spring kind.
Grr.....
7:21 a.m.
On 24 January 2018 at 16:05, Toby Thain via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Well, if it's universally held to be desirable
then there's a chance of
seeing one on a secondary market. But it probably therefore also be
overpriced.
There's that. The flipside is that there is considerable effort going
into devising keyboard interfaces for retro keyboards to modern
computers, and in principle, that could be reversed.
Bloody wankers. Keyboard is the least interesting part
of a system, I
don't understand the fetishisation.
Hmmm. I am a bit torn here.
I don't want to defend them, but I am a sort of accidental keyboard
collector myself. I hang out in some of the communities.
The first PC I ever used was an actual PC, an IBM PC-XT, at
university. It lived in a corner of a side room of the computer
centre, standalone, unloved. All the "serious" "hackers" used DEC VT
terminals on the uni VAXcluster.
I played with it because it had the Infocom Hitchhikers' Guide game on
it. And the PC knowledge gained thereby got me my 1st job and is why
I am sitting here in Nuremberg not writing documentation at this
precise moment today.
My 1st ever job was an IBM dealer, and I got used to the IBM
keyboards. I also worked on classic Macs and a tiny bit of IBM RS6000.
So the 2nd job, an Amstrad dealer, came as a shock. Nasty keyboards.
And of course they got much worse.
So for 25y or so, I've been slowly accumulating a small stockpile of
IBM Model Ms and Apple Extended 1 & 2 keyboards. I now have enough for
life.
Which means I can talk to the keyboard geeks.
I don't pay for them -- mine are all discards and the computers were
already gone. I sold most of my classic Macs when I left the UK and
all went with a keyboard, usually an AppleDesign one.
I sold a couple of isolated classic Apple keyboards but they didn't
make much so now I don't bother -- I keep 'em and use 'em instead.
But modern keyboards are almost universally horrid. They feel much the
same as each other, nasty and spongy.
So, you have 2 choices:
[1] Buy an expensive modern mechanical keyboard
[2] Buy an old vintage mechanical keyboard
Either way leads down a rabbit hole into a whole world.
But the vintage ones... well, people buy something cheap, like it, get
bored, get something else, find it is markedly different, buy another,
find it's different _again_ and that's it, they're hooked. I'm fairly
immune to this, as I'm old and have strong preferences already --
firstly, IBM Model Ms or early Apple ADB mechanicals, and secondly,
not spending much money.
The older and rarer you go, the more expensive the machine was when
new. Thus the higher quality the keyboard was. Thus the better it
feels, by and large. So that leads to a vicious cycle of seeking out
older, rarer keyboards. And once you get used to weird old ones, then
they become fun, so people get into them for their own merits.
I'm aghast that this has now led to complete vintage systems being
gutted and discarded for just the keyboard. I agree with the
ivory-poacher simile.
The only thing I can see countering it would be a trend of companies
making _good_ modern mechanical boards, especially with weird layouts
and USB ports. It might satisfy those who just want something
_different_ and don't need it to be old.
But I have played with another list-member's Unicomp "Model M" and it
was nothing like as good as a real IBM. It felt cheap and nasty by
comparison, although the key action was good.
I've also tried a couple of mechanical gamers' keyboards and they
weren't great either. I fear commoditisation and mass-production means
that real vintage quality might be unattainable today without making
the results more expensive than vintage ones.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
7:32 a.m.
On 2018-01-24 10:21 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
On 24 January 2018 at 16:05, Toby Thain via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
We joke that they have no qualms about Dremeling them out and sticking
Raspberry Pis inside, making them worthless for the original systems.
--T
Well, if it's universally held to be
desirable then there's a chance of
seeing one on a secondary market. But it probably therefore also be
overpriced.
There's that. The flipside is that there is considerable effort going
into devising keyboard interfaces for retro keyboards to modern
computers, and in principle, that could be reversed. Bloody wankers. Keyboard is the least interesting
part of a system, I
don't understand the fetishisation.
Hmmm. I am a bit torn here.
...
8:54 a.m.
On 24 January 2018 at 16:32, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
We joke that they have no qualms about Dremeling them out and sticking
Raspberry Pis inside, making them worthless for the original systems.
I hate that. I have told at least 1 friend to think about WTF he was
doing when he proposed this.
I don't think he understood. The perils of the correlation of techie
interest and being on the autistic spectrum.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
9:47 a.m.
On 1/24/18 7:21 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
So, you have 2 choices:
[1] Buy an expensive modern mechanical keyboard
Unless they are REALLY expensive, modern mechanical keyboard keycaps suck.
For some reason, they think the classic fonts are ugly and replace them
with REALLY ugly ones, or light all the keys or...
I bought a Nixeus one, and had to spend another $100 for a set of black double-shot
keycaps that ALMOST look as good as the classic Sanserif ones. But.. this was for a
Mac so I ended up with having to keep the old "cmd" keys, which are slightly the
wrong
height and have the legends worn off (not double-shot)
10:42 a.m.
I had no idea you wanted one! I just sold 1 in superb shape, but yes, the fellow did pay a
fortune for them. He is in Canada.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian Primus via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:40 PM
To: Guy Sotomayor; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts"
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
?are the bane of my existence and should all rot in
hell.
Sorry, I just received an email from a ?keyboard enthusiast? who was
looking for various IBM 327x keyboards and wanted to know if I could
help him and I needed to vent a little.
Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals. Missing keyboards is a perennial
problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years. I have two terminals here that are
missing the keyboards because some "enthusiast" bought them out from under me
during an eBay transaction.
So, now I have an Infoton and an IBM 3101 here that are completely worthless because the
keyboards are missing.
And I have no hope of ever finding replacements - especially for the IBM 3101, because
that's one of the ones the keyboard jerks really seem to love because it's the
older beam spring kind.
Grr.....
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
10:50 a.m.
On 1/23/18 8:40 PM, Ian Primus via cctalk wrote:
Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals.
Missing keyboards is a
perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years.
I went a little crazy and started doing the same in 2017 to dump the firmware
for MAME. There are now several working there because of that.
I ended up scrapping most of them in the fall because they were
taking up too much space, and there was no chance of ever finding keyboards
for them (esp the Qume ones).
I bought some Wyse kbs thinking I'd make a converter box, but then just decided
what's the point.
2:53 p.m.
Wyse 60 keyboards work out of the box as USB with a converter sold by Orihalcon on ebay.
So do all IBM terminals with an 8 pin connector or any other IBM terminal keyboard (but
not beamsprings).
The converters cost about $35-40 each. I use them to test all the terminal boards that I
sell.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:51 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts"
On 1/23/18 8:40 PM, Ian Primus via cctalk wrote:
Ugh. Don't get me started. I collect terminals.
Missing keyboards is a
perennial problem, but it's gotten WAY worse in recent years.
I went a little crazy and started doing the same in 2017 to dump the firmware for MAME.
There are now several working there because of that.
I ended up scrapping most of them in the fall because they were taking up too much space,
and there was no chance of ever finding keyboards for them (esp the Qume ones).
I bought some Wyse kbs thinking I'd make a converter box, but then just decided
what's the point.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
3:05 p.m.
On 1/24/18 2:53 PM, Electronics Plus wrote:
Wyse 60 keyboards work out of the box as USB with a
converter sold by Orihalcon on ebay.
I was going to convert a Wyse keyboard to something that would work to replace the
missing keyboards from terminals.
It was easier just to throw them out.
2307
days inactive
2308
days old
22 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
couryhouse＠aol.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
dseagrav＠lunar-tokyo.net -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
ian.finder＠gmail.com -
ian.primus.ccmp＠gmail.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
oltmansg＠gmail.com -
sales＠elecplus.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au