16 Nov
1997
16 Nov
'97
5:40 a.m.
You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas...
In the last few days the collection received an AT&T UNIX PC (aka 7300,
3b1) in extremely good condition. It arrived with all of the original
docs, software, and mouse. The docs were unwrapped , and the mouse was in
its original foam packing. "Kind of nice when someone packs things away
properly" I thought.
Well, its been a bit busy around the garage the last couple of weeks, so I
put the unit and its associated stuff on the shelf and covered it up for a
time.
Last night, while I was working on a notebook (yes, one of those 'modern'
things) for one of my wife's friends, I decided to have another look at the
UNIX PC while I was waiting for a disk scan to finish...
Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check of the unit (nothing
loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped
happily and started drawing little boxes on the screen as I recalled it
doing when it was starting up...
However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little boxes later, it starts
to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a prompt
of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy drive
(it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is
looking for a floppy.
Fine... so, I grab the binder containing the software distribution, open it
up...
All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it starts to dawn on me,
that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind; made
by the person who gave me the machine... "My father bought it for his
company, read the manuals and realized that he had no idea what he was
doing..."
I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was released
(and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things, open
the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put it on
the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK!
And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or
just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I
have a fair amount of time to spend with it)
No flame wars please, just the random philosophical question...
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
16 Nov
16 Nov
7:07 a.m.
And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank
this critter up? Or
just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I
have a fair amount of time to spend with it)
Why not just get some disks from another 3b1? I do not think they are all
that rare.
On the other hand, you may want to open the package to make sure that the
disks are not deteriorating for some reason - it is kind of a shame to
open a box (or crate) thinking that the innards will be pristine, only to
find out that something has gone wrong...
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
8:01 a.m.
And so, the
dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or
just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I
have a fair amount of time to spend with it)
Why not just get some disks from another 3b1? I do not think they are all
that rare. 
7:11 a.m.
Well I vote to use it 8-)
The 3B1 used a special WD processor. It could go bad just sitting there
and then its worthless. Load it up and you can say you have a Working
Classic. Keep the Docs pristine tho!
BC
8:49 a.m.
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Brett wrote:
Well I vote to use it 8-)
The 3B1 used a special WD processor. It could go bad just sitting there
Does it? I thought it used a 68000 or a 68010 (I forget which). The 3B2
had the strange processor, which may have been WD, but I thought it was
somebody else.
BC
-tony
8:58 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
The 3B2 line use the Western Electric 32000 series processors. Good for
making phone switches, adequate for some database engines, sucks rocks
for general purpose computing. IMAO. The Unix PC aka 7300 aka 3B1 used
the MC68010.
--
Ward Griffiths
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails
of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"]
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Brett wrote:
Well I vote to
use it 8-)
The 3B1 used a special WD processor. It could go bad just sitting there
Does it? I thought it used a 68000 or a 68010 (I forget which). The 3B2
had the strange processor, which may have been WD, but I thought it was
somebody else.
9:20 a.m.
The 3B2 line use the Western Electric 32000 series
processors. Good for
making phone switches, adequate for some database engines, sucks rocks
for general purpose computing. IMAO.
I once met a Bell engineer that was part of the early days of the 32x00
processors, and he said the thing was obsolete the day it was released.
Apparently the floating point was really bad, even worse than Motorolas.
The 32100 (the first generation) came in a unique package - a non-square
PGA, with rows of pins. Typical WE, do things the weird way.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
8:18 a.m.
James Willing wrote:
Last night, while I was working on a notebook (yes,
one of those 'modern'
things) for one of my wife's friends, I decided to have another look at the
UNIX PC while I was waiting for a disk scan to finish...
Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check of the unit (nothing
loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped
happily and started drawing little boxes on the screen as I recalled it
doing when it was starting up...
However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little
boxes later, it starts
to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a prompt
of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy drive
(it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is
looking for a floppy.
The marching blocks is almost always a sign of a serious motherboard
problem. One of my three suffers from it, so it's set aside for parts.
Unless that machine was shipped without an OS preinstall, which would
make it unique in my experience.
Dejanews seems to have stopped carrying the comp.sys.3b1 group, but the
3B1 FAQ is still available --
<http://cdrom.com/pub/internet/faqs/3b1-faq/>
is one location.
All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it
starts to dawn on me,
that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind; made
by the person who gave me the machine... "My father bought it for his
company, read the manuals and realized that he had no idea what he was
doing..."
I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was released
(and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things, open
the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put it on
the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK!
Think of it as evolution in action.
And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank
this critter up? Or
just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I
have a fair amount of time to spend with it)
It's well worth spending time with. A fairly unique user interface over
Unix, a fine 68010 CPU. The case design I still consider one of the
sexiest _ever_ put on the market. Admittedly, the built-in 1200 baud
modem is pretty well a lost cause.
If the OS level isn't at least 3.0, the disks are fairly useless, though
some of the documentation may still be usable. There were some missteps
in integrating the Convergent Technologies kernel with the AT&T stuff.
If you do get it to boot, there is a nice little Easter Egg invoked by
the command ".!." from a shell prompt. That's dot-bang-dot. It'll
give
a list of the folks at AT&T, Convergent and Alloy who were involved in
the project. Some of whom I worked with or otherwise met in the early
90's at Unisys at the old Convergent campus in San Jose, though most had
gone on to other companies.
And if you're interested, I may be able to supply a DOS-73 card -- I've
got a couple I'm not using much -- not much runs these days on an 8086
with 512K and Hercules graphics.
If you don't get it to boot and you have the later keyboard (with slots
to take function key labels) I'd be interested in the keyboard at least,
as those are not as common as the older keyboards I have -- the change
was made not long before AT&T bailed out of the project.
--
Ward Griffiths
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails
of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"]
12:10 p.m.
At 02:18 PM 11/16/97 -0500, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
The marching blocks is almost always a sign of a serious motherboard
problem. One of my three suffers from it, so it's set aside for parts.
Unless that machine was shipped without an OS preinstall, which would
make it unique in my experience.
Actually, (if memory serves) from the time when the computer store I was in
was a dealer for them, they did *not* come with the OS preinstalled. There
were rather lenghty debates at the time over if we would charge for loading
it up before delivery.
It's well worth spending time with. A fairly
unique user interface over
Unix, a fine 68010 CPU. The case design I still consider one of the
sexiest _ever_ put on the market. Admittedly, the built-in 1200 baud
modem is pretty well a lost cause.
True on all count... Altho I think one of the things that really killed it
was the bit-mapped video sub-system that required the CPU to do all the
screen work.
If the OS level isn't at least 3.0, the disks are
fairly useless, though
some of the documentation may still be usable. There were some missteps
in integrating the Convergent Technologies kernel with the AT&T stuff.
The disks are labeled as v3.5
If you do get it to boot, there is a nice little Easter
Egg invoked by
the command ".!." from a shell prompt. That's dot-bang-dot. It'll
give
a list of the folks at AT&T, Convergent and Alloy who were involved in
the project. Some of whom I worked with or otherwise met in the early
90's at Unisys at the old Convergent campus in San Jose, though most had
gone on to other companies.
I like it...
And if you're interested, I may be able to supply a
DOS-73 card -- I've
got a couple I'm not using much -- not much runs these days on an 8086
with 512K and Hercules graphics.
That might make for some interesting tinkering...
If you don't get it to boot and you have the later
keyboard (with slots
to take function key labels) I'd be interested in the keyboard at least,
as those are not as common as the older keyboards I have -- the change
was made not long before AT&T bailed out of the project.
Boot or not (and I suspect it will) it will have a home in the collection.
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
21 Nov
21 Nov
7:14 p.m.
What are these cards for? I didn't think you could expand these AT&T
UNIX machines. Are ther other card available? My system says Version 3.0
Main board P3...P5 (I just started it, gotta try the .!.).
Later, Whoa Cool it works I mean the .!. I'll place it on my site.
Now how can you tell if you have a 3b1? Maybe I'll just download the
FAQ.
Thank for the tip
Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
And if you're interested, I may be able to supply
a DOS-73 card -- I've
got a couple I'm not using much -- not much runs these days on an 8086
with 512K and Hercules graphics.
------------------------------------------------------------
Francois Auradon
Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon
22 Nov
22 Nov
12:30 p.m.
Francois Auradon wrote:
What are these cards for? I didn't think you could expand these AT&T
UNIX machines. Are ther other card available? My system says Version 3.0
Main board P3...P5 (I just started it, gotta try the .!.).
Later, Whoa Cool it works I mean the .!. I'll place it on my site.
Now how can you tell if you have a 3b1? Maybe I'll just download the
FAQ.
Thank for the tip
Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
> And if you're interested, I may be able to supply a DOS-73 card -- I've
> got a couple I'm not using much -- not much runs these days on an 8086
> with 512K and Hercules graphics.
The DOS-73 card is basically a standalone PC that occupies one of the
three expansion slots of a Unix PC. It's the same concept as the later
"Bridge Board" for the Amiga 2000 etc. It's got an 8086 and 512K RAM
that I've never seen anybody come up with a way to add to. With the
permission of the 68010 and Unix it treats the Unix PC display like a
Hercules monochrome graphics adapter. The manufacturer was Alloy. In
all truth, since no software newer than Wordstar 5.5 runs on it, it's
about as useful as the tits on a steer. Especially since the system's
limited to 360K floppies (720K if you make unsupported modifications).
--
Ward Griffiths
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails
of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"]
16 Nov
16 Nov
8:37 a.m.
James Willing wrote:
You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas...
In the last few days the collection received an AT&T UNIX PC (aka 7300,
3b1) in extremely good condition. It arrived with all of the original
docs, software, and mouse. The docs were unwrapped , and the mouse was in
its original foam packing. "Kind of nice when someone packs things away
properly" I thought.
And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank
this critter up? Or
just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I
have a fair amount of time to spend with it)
Wow, I wish we all had that type of problem :). My particular solution
would be to try and run diagnostics to make sure the machine ran (if I found
the time to do it) and just pack it away. One thing I do worry about is the
power supply filter caps going bad. I am thinking that for my collection,
powering up the machines periodically would be a good thing to maybe prevent
such problems.
8:43 a.m.
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, James Willing wrote:
You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas...
[Brand new 3B1]
Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check
of the unit (nothing
loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped
I'd have been a little more careful here. I'd have opened up the CPU box,
disconnected the PSU, and tested in on a dummy load. It only takes 1 dry
joint to wipe out all the chips in the unit.
And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank
this critter up? Or
just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I
have a fair amount of time to spend with it)
I know what _I'd_ do. I'd power it up (after checking the PSU, etc),
install the software, and enjoy it. You see, I collect computers because I
enjoy using them, hacking them, figuring out how they work, programming
them, interfacing them, etc. A computer which doesn't work (or which for
whatever reason is never given the chance to work) is of no interest to
me. Of course repairing computers is a major interest of mine, so
non-working machines don't stay that way.
I'd probably also unpack the disks (although as others have said, getting
a copy from a friend with the same machine is also an option), read the
manuals, etc
I remember that at the HP calculator conference 5 years ago I bought an
HP71 service manual. Now, this manual is not common, and it came in the
original shrink-wrap. Having got it, I ripped off said shrink-wrap, opened
the manual, and started reading. You see, I didn't buy the manual as an
example of HP shrink-wrap. I bought it to learn about the HP71. And that's
something you can only do when you've opened the manual.
No flame wars please, just the random philosophical question...
Well, it's your machine, so you have to decide what to do in the end...
-jim
-tony
17 Nov
17 Nov
5:38 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I know what
_I'd_ do. I'd power it up (after checking the PSU, etc),
install the software, and enjoy it. You see, I collect computers because I
enjoy using them, hacking them, figuring out how they work, programming
them, interfacing them, etc. A computer which doesn't work (or which for
whatever reason is never given the chance to work) is of no interest to
me. Of course repairing computers is a major interest of mine, so
non-working machines don't stay that way.
I have a non-working machine.... I
like repairing, too... but I don't have the
parts to do so... can anyone ship an 8088 (For the ever-so-popular XT... my
personal favorite, as it holds the charastics of a modern PC aimed at the
average-Joe market)... processor only... I _might_ need a graphics board, I've
heard from Riccardo (He told me about the list) that they're integrated with
the parrall printer port... the CRT was also broken... having that sent in for
repairs to a guy I trust (I don't trust myself w/monitors)... I'd thought about
calling IBM tech support... giving them a BIG laugh... say that It's only
1986.. .them saying that it's late '97....
I'd probably also unpack the disks (although
as others have said, getting
a copy from a friend with the same machine is also an option), read the
manuals, etc
I would possibly make a photocopy of the manuals and read the copies,
as you
might be concerned enough (I wouldn't care) to keep them in good shape....
I remember that at the HP calculator conference 5
years ago I bought an
HP71 service manual. Now, this manual is not common, and it came in the
original shrink-wrap. Having got it, I ripped off said shrink-wrap, opened
the manual, and started reading. You see, I didn't buy the manual as an
example of HP shrink-wrap. I bought it to learn about the HP71. And that's
something you can only do when you've opened the manual.
EXACTLY!!!!
There are people who collect baseball cards (Somehthing which
I DO NOT do) and leave them in the packaging.... they don't even know what
cards are inside.... for all they know, the information could lead them to
develop a new game.... or something... you neve know! I don't want crates of
unused things.... they never get shown, used, I'm in it for the FUN of using
computers... OSes, old drives, seeing old technologies... stuff like that... 
16 Nov
16 Nov
12:10 p.m.
James Willing wrote:
You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas...
In the last few days the collection received an AT&T UNIX PC (aka
7300,
3b1) in extremely good condition. It arrived with all of the original
docs, software, and mouse. The docs were unwrapped , and the mouse
was in
its original foam packing. "Kind of nice when someone packs things
away
properly" I thought.
Well, its been a bit busy around the garage the last couple of weeks,
so I
put the unit and its associated stuff on the shelf and covered it up
for a
time.
Last night, while I was working on a notebook (yes, one of those
'modern'
things) for one of my wife's friends, I decided to have another look
at the
UNIX PC while I was waiting for a disk scan to finish...
Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check of the unit
(nothing
loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped
happily and started drawing little boxes on the screen as I recalled
it
doing when it was starting up...
However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little boxes later, it
starts
to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a
prompt
of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy
drive
(it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is
looking for a floppy.
Fine... so, I grab the binder containing the software distribution,
open it
up...
All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it starts to dawn on
me,
that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind;
made
by the person who gave me the machine... "My father bought it for his
company, read the manuals and realized that he had no idea what he was
doing..."
I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was
released
(and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things,
open
the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put
it on
the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK!
And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter
up? Or
just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it
until I
have a fair amount of time to spend with it)
No flame wars please, just the random philosophical question...
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
IMHOP, Crank it up! Otherwise, it might as well be an empty shell!
Nobody asked, just my opinion.......
Will
5:33 p.m.
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, James Willing wrote:
And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank
this critter up? Or
just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I
have a fair amount of time to spend with it)
This is always such the dilemma. The question you must ask yourself is,
what is to be accomplished by keeping everything in its sealed state? Is
it going to be important to future generations to know what a brand
spanking new AT&T UNIX PC looked like out of the box? Perhaps. What is
the value of keeping the seals intact? Monetary or historical? Its the
same reason that collectibles such as comic books or trading cards are
more valuable in their original sealed package. Unfortunately, that
reason eludes me. I guess it just means it is still in some immaculate
state, untouched by dirty human hands. I think it's definitely an
irrational emotional issue, rather than a logical one.
Jim, I have exactly what you do: an AT&T UNIX PC 7300 with all the manuals
and software, including the original packaging. I also have the printer
that came with it, plus the owner's original notebooks with notes galore,
some software he downloaded off of BBS', everything. But my system was
used for a while and thus boots up and is actually quite usable (and very
neat!) If you don't want to open yours up, tuck it back away. Mine will
suffice as an operating example while yours will demonstrate one in
pristine condition.
I guess in the end yours will be appraised for more than mine :)
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
17 Nov
17 Nov
7:04 a.m.
All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it
starts to dawn on me,
that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind; made
It strikes me that from a pure 'collecting' point of view the machine
is probably unique. It would be worth keeping as it is, but
eventually the floppies will not be readable and the machine will
then never be usable. However it may well still be very collectable
as there will be no more brand new ones around.
Regrads
Pete
8:04 a.m.
New subject: Found on AuctionWeb...
An Apple Lisa Hardware Rack...
http://iguana.ebay2.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2035144
Among other things, there's three Lisa lots on Haggle... go here:
http://www.haggle.com/cache/cat43.html
Also, a trackstar E for use with Tandy/IBM compatibles (Apple //e emulator)
http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?item_id=201452844
Also a few things under the "other systems listings" at haggle (mostly
Atari / Amiga):
http://www.haggle.com/cache/cat12.html
Well... that's all I saw (but I didn't look too hard....)
HTH,
"Merch"
--
Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional
Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers
zmerch(a)northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within?
9744
days inactive
9750
days old
17 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
ard＠odin.phy.bris.ac.uk -
danjo＠xnet.com -
dastar＠wco.com -
francois.auradon＠worldnet.att.net -
gram＠cnct.com -
healyzh＠ix.netcom.com -
jimw＠agora.rdrop.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
photze＠batelco.com.bh -
pjoules＠mail.enterprise.net -
william＠ans.net -
wpe＠interserv.com -
zmerch＠northernway.net