14 Feb
2008
14 Feb
'08
5:02 p.m.
It appears I've staved off buying one of these too long and now I need one.
Way back in the day, I used an ART EPP1, and I liked the serial
connection (as I could use it from any machine,not just a PC).
But, there are lots of options today. My primary interest is in
replicating CBM KERNAL roms, though I would not mind uC programming
capabilities.
What do other people use for eprom programming? I see a slew of Willem
programmers, but I don't understand why there are so many variants. A
bummer is that they all use the Paallel Port, as far as I can tell.
Jim
14 Feb
14 Feb
5:12 p.m.
On Feb 14, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
It appears I've staved off buying one of these too
long and now I
need one.
Way back in the day, I used an ART EPP1, and I liked the serial
connection (as I could use it from any machine,not just a PC).
But, there are lots of options today. My primary interest is in
replicating CBM KERNAL roms, though I would not mind uC programming
capabilities.
What do other people use for eprom programming? I see a slew of
Willem programmers, but I don't understand why there are so many
variants. A bummer is that they all use the Paallel Port, as far as
I can tell.
Jim
Data I/O 29B or System 19 with either a UniPak or UniPak II. They
handle pretty much any of the old EPROMS from 2708's on up. For
simple duplication operations, you can do everything from the control
panel. They also have a serial interface for talking to a computer.
You can usually find them on eBay for short money.
-Mardy
5:17 p.m.
--- Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
A
bummer is that they all use the Paallel Port, as far
as I can tell.
Most did back in the day, as I recall anyway. There
currently are usb-parallel port adapter gizmos. If
that's any help...
I go this old Spectrum Dynamics thing I picked up at
TCF last year. Still don't know what state of direpair
it's in. It might use RTL components. Or was it DTL?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
5:50 p.m.
Jim Brain wrote:
What do other people use for eprom programming?
Mine's a 'Universe 1000' made by Elan - it's a combined EPROM/PAL
programmer
with an on-board keypad/display and a row of about 10 ZIF sockets (of various
sizes), all driven by a Z80. Local memory is 1Mbit, which limits what it can
do even if the cartridges I have for it would do more (although it's rare I
need an EPROM anything like that size, 128Kbit is normally my limit).
It's old, but it does the job (no support for 3-rail devices though). Main
plus for me is that comms to the outside world is RS-232 rather than something
weird, so it's easy to hook up to what I have, and the fact that it's got all
its smarts locally means that I'm not stuck with custom control software issues.
One day I should grab a photo of the internals for posterity though - it's
about the worst build quality of anything I've ever seen (and the
chassis/casing appears to have been designed by a 5 year old). I'm amazed it
works at all, but it does what it does very well...
cheers
Jules
6:57 p.m.
Jim Brain wrote:
It appears I've staved off buying one of these too
long and now I need
one.
Way back in the day, I used an ART EPP1, and I liked the serial
connection (as I could use it from any machine,not just a PC).
But, there are lots of options today. My primary interest is in
replicating CBM KERNAL roms, though I would not mind uC programming
capabilities.
What do other people use for eprom programming? I see a slew of
Willem programmers, but I don't understand why there are so many
variants. A bummer is that they all use the Paallel Port, as far as I
can tell.
Jim
Speaking of Eprom Programmers - I have a Pro-Log with the 1702A module.
What I do not have is the manual for the 1702 module...Does anyone have
a copy? I have a copy of the schematics thanks to another member here -
but the module has a switch to set Vdd at either -9 (1702A?) or -10V
(1702 only?). My module works fine, but just like to have complete docs.
I have the factory manuals for this burner if anyone needs a few pages
let me know. Scanning the whole book is a bit more time than I have free
right now...(100 pages or so).
Thanks,
John :-#)#
15 Feb
15 Feb
9:37 a.m.
From: jrr at flippers.com
---snip---
8:13 p.m.
dwight elvey wrote:
Speaking of Eprom Programmers - I have a Pro-Log with the 1702A module.
What I do not have is the manual for the 1702 module...Does anyone have
a copy? I have a copy of the schematics thanks to another member here -
but the module has a switch to set Vdd at either -9 (1702A?) or -10V
(1702 only?). My module works fine, but just like to have complete docs.
Hi John
The 1702 used a different algorithm than the 1702A did and the pulse
widths were different. The switch is most likely to select between
1702As and 4702As. The 4702A used -10V to match the 4004. I doubt
the programmer was intended for 1702s.
Dwight
Ah, well it appears that the 1702 had a Vdd of -12V and the 1702A was
-9...still I suspect Pro-Log would have labeled the switch a bit clearer
if one position was for the 1702 and the other for the 4702. Maybe...
Still the docs on that module would be nice!
John :-#)#
--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
From: jrr at
flippers.com
---snip---
14 Feb
14 Feb
7 p.m.
It appears I've staved off buying one of these too
long and now I need one.
Way back in the day, I used an ART EPP1, and I liked the serial
connection (as I could use it from any machine,not just a PC).
But, there are lots of options today. My primary interest is in
replicating CBM KERNAL roms, though I would not mind uC programming
capabilities.
What do other people use for eprom programming? I see a slew of Willem
programmers, but I don't understand why there are so many variants. A
bummer is that they all use the Paallel Port, as far as I can tell.
The Willem programmers are all based on an Open Source hardware design. I
bought one a few months back for just the purpose you're looking at. IIRC,
mine has a Parallel port interface, with USB providing the power. I've used
it a few times and am very happy with it and the very cheap/basic chinese
EPROM eraser that I also bought. Both items came off eBay from US Sellers.
What was more fun was soldering up the EPROM adapters. :^)
Zane
15 Feb
15 Feb
1:11 a.m.
On Thursday 14 February 2008 17:02, Jim Brain wrote:
It appears I've staved off buying one of these too
long and now I need one.
Way back in the day, I used an ART EPP1, and I liked the serial
connection (as I could use it from any machine,not just a PC).
But, there are lots of options today. My primary interest is in
replicating CBM KERNAL roms, though I would not mind uC programming
capabilities.
What do other people use for eprom programming? I see a slew of Willem
programmers, but I don't understand why there are so many variants. A
bummer is that they all use the Paallel Port, as far as I can tell.
I have the 8052-BASIC based one that Steve Ciarcia had in an article in Byte,
and that uses a serial connection. Only at 1200 baud, though, for some
reason.
One of these days I gotta fix that... :-)
Replacing a CBM Kernal ROM is going to need an adapter, as the eprom has more
pins. Are you into making those or do you know of a source for them?
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
1:46 a.m.
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 01:11:23AM -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I have the 8052-BASIC based one that Steve Ciarcia had
in an article in Byte,
and that uses a serial connection. Only at 1200 baud, though, for some
reason.
4K doesn't take _that_ long to push over 1200 bps...
Replacing a CBM Kernal ROM is going to need an
adapter, as the eprom has more
pins. Are you into making those or do you know of a source for them?
Depending on which model of CBM you have, there's a no-adapter solution:
for PETs that take 2332 ROMs (i.e., *not* the old Static PETs), the 2532
is a drop-in EPROM. Not the 2732... the 2532. I have a few of them, some
from the old days (with PET firmware on them) and a few
blanks that I've
picked up over the years when I was already ordering from some
place like
B.G. Micro.
I had a $C000 BASIC ROM die in my first PET (the one I got new, when I was
a kid)... there's now a 2532 in its place.
If you can't find any 2532s, you could make a 2732->2532 pin swabber in
a couple layers of machined-pin sockets - the bottom socket goes right
into the PET, the top socket holds the 2732. The middle layer is used
to rearrange whatever pins need relocation. I've had good luck with
stuffing a 1Mbit FLASH ROM into a 32kbit socket that way (and brought out
the extra address pins to a connector to an external switch to be able
to select multiple 4K ROM images). If my description is too vague, I
can try to take a picture to illustrate what I mean.
-ethan>
--
Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Feb-2008 at 06:40 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -32.8 F (-36.0 C) Windchill -56.6 F (-49.2 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 8.7 kts Grid 307 Barometer 681.8 mb (10560 ft)
Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
2:57 a.m.
On Friday 15 February 2008 01:46, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Hmm. I wasn't thinking PET as much as C64, when I wrote that. The ROMs in
that one were all 24-pin parts, a 4K character rom and the BASIC and Kernal
being 8K, which would need a 2764.
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 01:11:23AM -0500, Roy J.
Tellason wrote:
No, it doesn't. It's just a minor annoyance, which is probably why I only
gripe about it every now and then nad hvaen't really gotten around to doing
anything about it... :-)
I have the 8052-BASIC based one that Steve
Ciarcia had in an article in
Byte, and that uses a serial connection. Only at 1200 baud, though,
for some reason.
4K doesn't take _that_ long to push over 1200 bps... Replacing a
CBM Kernal ROM is going to need an adapter, as the eprom has
more pins. Are you into making those or do you know of a source for
them?
Depending on which model of CBM you have, there's a no-adapter solution:
for PETs that take 2332 ROMs (i.e., *not* the old Static PETs), the 2532
is a drop-in EPROM. Not the 2732... the 2532. I have a few of them, some
from the old days (with PET firmware on them) and a few blanks that I've
picked up over the years when I was already ordering from some place like
B.G. Micro.
I had a $C000 BASIC ROM die in my first PET (the one I got new, when I was
a kid)... there's now a 2532 in its place. If you can't find any 2532s, you could make a
2732->2532 pin swabber in
a couple layers of machined-pin sockets - the bottom socket goes right
into the PET, the top socket holds the 2732. The middle layer is used
to rearrange whatever pins need relocation. I've had good luck with
stuffing a 1Mbit FLASH ROM into a 32kbit socket that way (and brought out
the extra address pins to a connector to an external switch to be able
to select multiple 4K ROM images). If my description is too vague, I
can try to take a picture to illustrate what I mean.
I can see how you'd stack a couple of sockets to connect the pins you wanted
to connect, but am a little less clear about the other ones. Like if you
wanted to interrupt a signal going through -- just bend it out? Maybe I need
to look at the pinouts of those parts...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
8:32 a.m.
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 02:57:08AM -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
> Depending on which model of CBM you have,
there's a no-adapter
> solution...
Hmm. I wasn't thinking PET as much as C64, when
I wrote that. The ROMs in
that one were all 24-pin parts, a 4K character rom and the BASIC and Kernal
being 8K, which would need a 2764.
Ah... yes. That's entirely different.
I can see how you'd stack a couple of sockets to
connect the pins you wanted
to connect, but am a little less clear about the other ones. Like if you
wanted to interrupt a signal going through -- just bend it out? Maybe I need
to look at the pinouts of those parts...
You poke out the pin in the middle socket, then you have the room to solder
to the upper socket pin and run a wire to the relevant lower socket pin.
I built a 2764->2732 adapter that does some fiddly stuff with the two or
three pins at the top of each of the sockets (Vpp, Vcc - those sorts of
pins).
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Feb-2008 at 13:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -29.4 F (-34.1 C) Windchill -54.9 F (-48.3 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 10.9 kts Grid 33 Barometer 682.1 mb (10549 ft)
Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
3:23 a.m.
Roy J. Tellason wrote:
Replacing a CBM Kernal ROM is going to need an adapter, as the eprom has more
pins. Are you into making those or do you know of a source for them?
http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/hardware/2364.html
3:50 a.m.
On Friday 15 February 2008 03:23, Jim Brain wrote:
Roy J. Tellason wrote:
Neat! And reasonably priced, considering what you get...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
Replacing a CBM Kernal ROM is going to need an
adapter, as the eprom has
more pins. Are you into making those or do you know of a source for
them?
http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/hardware/2364.html
8:29 a.m.
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 03:50:18AM -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
On Friday 15 February 2008 03:23, Jim Brain wrote:
I have a couple of the RAM/ROM boards for PETs and floppy drives. Very
nice products. I am a satisfied customer.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Feb-2008 at 13:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -29.4 F (-34.1 C) Windchill -54.9 F (-48.3 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 10.9 kts Grid 33 Barometer 682.1 mb (10549 ft)
Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
Roy J. Tellason wrote:
Neat! And reasonably priced, considering what you get... Replacing a CBM Kernal ROM is going to need an
adapter, as the eprom has
more pins. Are you into making those or do you know of a source for
them?
http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/hardware/2364.html 
11:45 p.m.
Replacing a CBM Kernal ROM is going to need an
adapter, as the eprom
has
more pins. Are you into making those or do you know of a source for
them?
http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/hardware/2364.html
11:25 p.m.
It appears I've staved off buying one of these too
long and now I need
one.
Way back in the day, I used an ART EPP1, and I liked the serial connection
(as I could use it from any machine,not just a PC).
But, there are lots of options today. My primary interest is in
replicating CBM KERNAL roms, though I would not mind uC programming
capabilities.
What do other people use for eprom programming? I see a slew of Willem
programmers, but I don't understand why there are so many variants. A
bummer is that they all use the Paallel Port, as far as I can tell.
From Cheapest to Eternal:
- Willem. Nothing can be cheaper than that. You can build one on your
home for a few quids, a single sided board drawing is avaiable which you can
make using photo method or thermal toner transfer. Very reliable but doesn't
program anything older than 2732 or 2716 if I'm not mistaken, Although there
is an adapter avaiable.
- Top 2004/2007/2008/whatever. These programmers made in china are very
cheap and very capable, but the software is terrible and the support is nil.
I'd not buy one of these but they **works**
- Used ALL-03 / ALL-11 programmer - top of mind, great programmers for
all kind of jobs, does SRAM/DRAM/TTL/CMOS/Whatever testing and are usually
cheap - if you can find one to buy.
- Used Labprog 48 from Elnec. www.elnec.com says it all.
- NEW Beeprog / Beeprog + from Elnec. The best $300-700 you're going to
spend in a programmer. I have a beeprog and will not have to buy anything
for a long time. Excellent support, DAILY (!) updates and a great tool.
Hope it helps!
Alexandre
11:39 p.m.
Alexandre Souza wrote:
From Cheapest to Eternal:
- Willem. Nothing can be cheaper than that. You can build one on
your home for a few quids, a single sided board drawing is avaiable
which you can make using photo method or thermal toner transfer. Very
reliable but doesn't program anything older than 2732 or 2716 if I'm
not mistaken, Although there is an adapter avaiable.
Willem would be fine (I'd
rather not spend a fortune on a programmer,
and I've got enough projects here that rolling my own is not a task I'd
prefer for today. On that note, a Willem looks great, cheap, programs a
bunch of stuff, OK interface.
But, the sheer number of variations and the lack of concrete informaiton
on them makes it very hard to discern what to buy.
On the one hand, The PCB 5.X folks say they will program much faster
than a 3B board and have more on-board adapters, but the 3B folks say
the 5.X folks reverse engineered the design and it won't be as
complatible. Eeek. Any help finding a good unit here would be grand.
- Top 2004/2007/2008/whatever. These programmers made in china are
very cheap and very capable, but the software is terrible and the
support is nil. I'd not buy one of these but they **works**
Yeah, saw those. I
need more orphanware like I need a hole in the head.
- Used ALL-03 / ALL-11 programmer - top of mind, great programmers
for all kind of jobs, does SRAM/DRAM/TTL/CMOS/Whatever testing and are
usually cheap - if you can find one to buy.
I'll look for one, but this is more
a "get something now, move on" type
of proposition.
- Used Labprog 48 from Elnec. www.elnec.com says it
all.
I'll check this.
- NEW Beeprog / Beeprog + from Elnec. The best $300-700 you're
going to spend in a programmer. I have a beeprog and will not have to
buy anything for a long time. Excellent support, DAILY (!) updates and
a great tool.
Too rich for me... But, I'll save this for when I want a nice
unit.
I hesitate to spend much, since I've existed quite a long time without
one at all. But, I should have one, to program the odd KERNAL or dump it.
Jim
16 Feb
16 Feb
7:32 a.m.
Brain (will you conquer the world?) :oD
But, the sheer number of variations and the lack of
concrete informaiton
on them makes it very hard to discern what to buy.
Easy: Any of them. I'd prefer the cheapest, single-sided version just
because it is cheap :o) Also, having the adapters separate will make your
life easier: When you buy a grown-up programmer, you will have the adapters
to use with that. Although in USA these things are cheap. So bad here are so
expensive, I built almost all of my adapters.
On the one hand, The PCB 5.X folks say they will
program much faster than
a 3B board and have more on-board adapters, but the 3B folks say the 5.X
folks reverse engineered the design and it won't be as complatible. Eeek.
Any help finding a good unit here would be grand.
As I said, all of them works. I use the 3.x version just becase I did my
own board.
Yeah, saw those. I need more orphanware like I need a
hole in the head.
Bang! A hole in the programmer! :oD
I hesitate to spend much, since I've existed quite
a long time without one
at all. But, I should have one, to program the odd KERNAL or dump it.
This is a kind of tool that is expensive, but if you buy the right one,
you'll have it and use it for 10, 20 years.
Greetz from Brazil
Alexandre
7:17 a.m.
On Sat, 2008-02-16 at 01:25 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote:
- Willem. Nothing can be cheaper than that. You
can build one on your
home for a few quids, a single sided board drawing is avaiable which you can
make using photo method or thermal toner transfer. Very reliable but doesn't
program anything older than 2732 or 2716 if I'm not mistaken, Although there
is an adapter avaiable.
I bought a Willem PCB3 from eBay for about 15 quid, which came with all
the cables and even a free 27C512 (which now holds custom firmware for
one of my synths). The only downside is that the only software I've
seen so far is Windows-only, and I can't find any proper documentation
for it.
The software runs perfectly well under Wine, otherwise it would have
gone back.
Gordon
12:11 p.m.
I bought a Willem PCB3 from eBay for about 15 quid,
which came with all
the cables and even a free 27C512 (which now holds custom firmware for
one of my synths). The only downside is that the only software I've
seen so far is Windows-only, and I can't find any proper documentation
for it.
Custom synths?!? Tell me more about that :oD
The software runs perfectly well under Wine, otherwise
it would have
gone back.
There are sources for an old version of this program, I can send you if
you want, but you can find everything under www.willem.org :o)
5996
days inactive
5998
days old
20 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
brain＠jbrain.com -
chrism3667＠yahoo.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
ethan.dicks＠usap.gov -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jrr＠flippers.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
mardy＠voysys.com -
rtellason＠verizon.net