Dick, Note that this item IS published on the mailing list, because quite frankly, Charlotte, I don't give a damn. Does this portray a laziness on your part that makes the reader have to hunt through a long message to see what you have to say? I had noticed this many times in the past, but previously refrained from mentioning it. I felt that, up to now, I would tolerate your style. Can I also hold you to this, or do you succumb to a double standard? I recall so many messages from you, so many of which were off topic, that I thought only someone who had nothing better to do with their time, could have so much time to devote to a "mailing list". Is that better? I attended enough classes to graduate in the top 1% out of a graduating class of over 700, taking the hardest level of classes available in the advanced placement program, all the while working nearly full time while I was in school. You obviously have me confused with someone else. I'd sit down with you anytime and compare literary abilities and writing styles. I might not be world class, but you'll never out perform me when I'm on a project that, to me, is of greater importance than a "mailing list" message. FORTRAN IV at Old Dominion University when I was 16, back in 1973. I was released from some of my Chemistry classes to simultaneously take that programming class. Again, you obviously must have me confused with Joee who posted the message that began this thread. Yes, you do this quite often. That was my mistake. I have now learned something new, or a misconception of mine has now been corrected. I thank you, it will not be forgotten. http://softrat.home.mindspring.com/germanic.html Now I will have to ponder why there are so many similarities between French and Italian words and their English counterparts, while to me the German language seems so much different. Ian Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Note that this item is NOT published on the mailing list, since few people > will be interested in its content. That is how personalized replies > normally are handled in this environment. > > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Koller" <vze2mnvr(a)verizon.net> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>rg>; "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:06 AM > Subject: Re: Language and English > > > > Hello Dick, > > > > I get the impression, which may not be correct, that you > > may be retired, because of the greater amount of time that > > you are able to devote to reading and responding to newsgroup > > messages. > > > Contrary to what you apparently believe, this is not a newsgroup. This is a > mailing list, and one that's privately maintained, funded, and hosted. I'd > suggest you find out what a newsgroup is and then proceed. I'd also > suggest you consider why this list exists. It's a medium for communicating > information and thoughts germane to a specific topic. If your message is > not germane to that topic, if it contains no relevant information, or if it > reflects no thought, it should not be there. > > > > If this is so, that would mean you encountered an educational > > system at a previous date in time that may have been more formal > > than that which I encountered. > > > Nope ... I have two kids in expensive, out-of-state colleges thouseands of > miles away, and that doesn't allow me to sit on my duff and read nonsense, > not to mention oddly composed, incomprehensibly formatted, and poorly > spelled items, written in poor grammar and with incomprehensibly incorrect > syntax. > > If I were you, I'd not start on blaming the educational system for your own > inability to communicate in the prevailing language in our culture. If you > had attended all your classes, performed all the assigned reading and > writing, and taken the feedback from your teachers seriously, you'd be able > to express yourself precisely and accurately using the tools the system > provided. The fact that you don't shows that you didn't. > > I was actively engaged in assisting as well as monitoring the education of > my children as they went through the public education system. From that > experience I learned that one can still get the level of education necessary > to express onesself appropriately and accurately in terms of the common > mathematics and science and with reference to the same historical and > literary background that has traditionally been taught. It is a different > process than it was when I went through it, which I did in grades 6 through > 12, and onward, probably all well before you were born. > > > > Question. Did you ever study Latin? Was Latin offered in your > > school system? It was not offered in mine, but since I recently > > have been in contact with people in France, Italy, Germany, and > > Spain, I believe having studied the root language of all the > > "romance" languages would have proven helpful now. I'll bet that > > when Latin no longer became a requirement in many educational > > programs, there was more than one that must have felt that > > that was a sign of deteriorating standards. > > > No, I didn't study Latin, since people don't use it any longer. I was > studying English, which, as everyone knows, is NOT a romance language. > > Did you ever study FORTRAN (before FTN77) or COBOL? At least those are > still used ... occasionally. > > Latin was taught in order to teach the concept of structure and rigor. > Those are things clearly absent from your "stream-of-consciousness" writing > style, which suggests that, if you did study Latin, you didn't attend all > the classes or perform all the assigned work. > > English is a Germanic language, like, German, which also is not a romance > language, and is my "second" language, German having been the first. That > may explain why my adherence to precise grammar, syntax, and orthography > leans somewhat to the pedantic. > > I'd suggest that you take the extra moment or two to think about what you > need to say in the ClassicCmp mailing list environment BEFORE you say it, in > which case you won't have to defend it afterwards, which really isn't > necessary anyway. I'd also suggest you take time to consider the effect of > what you do to format, punctuate, and capitalize your writing on other > people's ability to read what you transmit. The mailing list isn't a "Chat" > room. It's not a place for idle chatter, nor is it a place to prattle on > about senseless things, though that happens from time to time. > > Oddly formatted messages become nearly unreadable on displays formatted > differently from yours, and there's little you can do about it, since you've > no control over the display system some folks use. Many of the users of > "the list" are in other countries, which means they're using a language with > which they're not familiar. > > The use of colloqialisms, particularly the use of esoteric abbreviations, > can render your messages unintelligible. The reason most of us use > "standard" English is that (1) because it's familiar to us, we can quickly > and easily read it, extracting the content with reasonable reliability, and > (2) because people not so familiar with popular idioms will not have to > spend time deciphering them. It's difficult enough sifting through the > computerese jargon. > > > I take time form my busy day to tell you all this because you may have > something of value to contribute. Learning, first and foremost, requires > exposure to information that one doesn't already have. If there's little of > that, and if your messages are difficult to read, your messages will > ultimately end up in the "kill file" rather than on the list of things > people read. That will, of course be transparent to you, since the listbot > will still distribute the things you transmit. It will just become a waste > of bandwidth, however. > > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > Gee ... judging from the net unwillingness to use normal "adult" > > > punctuation, captitalization, etc, it does look as though you're doing > it > > > just to be "cute." I can't think of a single reason, otherwise, why one > > > would one do that? > > > > > > When I was in the 8th grade, one of the courses we were required to take > was > > > in typing. I've never gotten particularly good at it, but I did learn > that > > > a period at the end of a sentence is followed by two spaces, for > example. > > > In about the first grade, I learned that the first letter in a sentence > is > > > customarily capitalized. Why? I don't know, but it appears to be the > > > custom. As a consequence, the absence of these basic features makes > one's > > > writing harder to read. The odd-length lines of text don't help > > > readability, either. It's also customary to insert a blank line between > > > paragraphs. That, surely, is to enhance readability. If you want > people to > > > read your stuff, you've got to make it easy for them. > > > > > > If you insist on writing in a style reminiscent of E. E. Cummings > poetry, > > > you may find that your messages are read by readers of this forum with > about > > > the same frequency as E.E. Cummings' work, which might be a shame, in > case > > > you really do have something significant to contribute. or in case I'm > the > > > only one who doesn't read much Cummings. > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <Golemancd(a)aol.com> > > > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> > > > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 6:13 AM > > > Subject: Re: Language and English > > > > > > > this may help > > > > i am 38 years old, so there is nothing about my typing style > > > > where i am trying to be cute. > > > > i collect any computer i can get my hands on. > > > > i am developing an operating system and a multimedia program > > > > to create movies. > > > > i use a newer computer to produce records. > > > > i am also working out, as i was talking about > > > > in the original thread that got off track, a distributed > > > > os to control robots and also a custom computer > > > > to do the same. > > > > > > > > i guess thats it. > > > > joee > > > > > > > > > > > >