7 Mar
2013
7 Mar
'13
9 a.m.
At 3:22 -0600 3/7/13, Fred wrote:
1985 Mac ~$3000
1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION.
1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting
True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985 [1] cost ~$1500
(new) including University of Texas' academic discount (I was a
student). I decided that way because that price beat Ciarcia Circuit
Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC, and the 68000 looked more
powerful to me than the 8086.
I mistakenly thought that I'd be writing most of my own
software in either case - and I've yet to really learn any assembly
language. I totally misjudged the development of MacOS and
applications, or the speed at which MS-DOS' hardware requirements
would advance ...
Anyway, my point is that exceptions to Apple pricing did
exist, and were (at least in my case, though not necessarily for the
right reasons) decisive.
[1] I was going to say, "I still have it", but on thoughtful
consideration, I guess I only still have the bottom and front bezel
of the case and the CRT. Power supply re-built, logic board upgraded
to Mac Plus which required replacement of case back. Not too sure
about the frame - is that the same between a Plus and a Fat Mac? I
still have the mouse and keyboard and power cable.
--
- Mark 210-379-4635
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Asteroids headed toward planets
inhabited by beings that don't have
technology adequate to stop them:
Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward.
7 Mar
7 Mar
9:37 a.m.
>1985 Mac ~$3000
>1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION.
>1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting
On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote:
True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985 [1]
cost ~$1500
(new) including University of Texas' academic discount (I was a
student).
Sweet. I didn't have access to that deal. It would have been nice.
I decided that way because that price beat Ciarcia
Circuit
Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC,
"Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot)
I built one of those.
and the 68000 looked more powerful to me than the
8086.
Unarguably better, although PC had more software and hardware selection
Anyway, my point is that exceptions to Apple pricing
did
exist, and were (at least in my case, though not necessarily for the
right reasons) decisive.
would have worked for me.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
9:55 a.m.
On 03/07/2013 12:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
SB180 was 64180 a which is Hitatchi Z80 derivative, not a PC
though small and fast and also 1980 or 81. I have one with the SCSI
adaptor.
The PC was indistinct in my mind and forgetable.
Allison
> 1985 Mac
~$3000
> 1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION.
> 1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting
On
Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote:
True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985
[1] cost ~$1500
(new) including University of Texas' academic discount (I was a
student).
Sweet. I didn't have access to that deal. It would have been
nice.
I decided that way because that price beat
Ciarcia Circuit
Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC,
"Micromint SB180??"?
(PC compatible 9 slot)
I built one of those.
12:42 p.m.
>> I decided that way because that price beat
Ciarcia Circuit
>> Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC,
> "Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot)
> I built one of those.
On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Allison wrote:
SB180 was 64180 a which is Hitatchi Z80 derivative,
not a PC
though small and fast and also 1980 or 81. I have one with the SCSI
adaptor.
Yep. I kinda knew (hence '??') that I wasn't remembering the model
number.
The PC was indistinct in my mind and forgetable.
It had NINE slots, with the alternate ones spaced the same as the 5150,
thus permitting 5150 case if you didn't need bracket on four of them.
But, the UNUSUAL part about it was that it was designed to work from a
terminal, instead of PC style keyboard and screen. That apparently didn't
work out, so he came out with a keyboard ISA card. (to make the machine
forgettable)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
12:57 p.m.
On 03/07/2013 12:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
It had NINE slots, with the alternate ones spaced the
same as the 5150,
thus permitting 5150 case if you didn't need bracket on four of them.
But, the UNUSUAL part about it was that it was designed to work from a
terminal, instead of PC style keyboard and screen. That apparently didn't
work out, so he came out with a keyboard ISA card. (to make the machine
forgettable)
I have a booklet of schematics for a very similar kit, but I don't think
the name is "Micromint". Also, wasn't the UART something like an 8274,
rather than an 8250, shared with DRAM on an ISA board?
--Chuck
1:49 p.m.
> It had NINE slots, with the alternate ones spaced
the same as the 5150,
> thus permitting 5150 case if you didn't need bracket on four of them.
> But, the UNUSUAL part about it was that it was designed to work from a
> terminal, instead of PC style keyboard and screen. That apparently didn't
> work out, so he came out with a keyboard ISA card. (to make the machine
> forgettable)
On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I have a booklet of schematics for a very similar kit,
but I don't think
the name is "Micromint". Also, wasn't the UART something like an 8274,
rather than an 8250, shared with DRAM on an ISA board?
The one that I was talking about was the MPX-16
It was available from Micromint (Steve Ciarcia Cicuit Cellar) ,
Cedarhurst, NY
for $1200
$595 wave soldered kit
$400 bare board
manuals $50
http://books.google.com/books?id=zQWNinpbFx0C&pg=PA120&source=gbs_s…
Steve Ciarcia wrote quite a bit about it.
It would have been out of my price comfort zone, if I hadn't gotten the
chance to take over somebody else's unfinished (not even completely
soldered yet) project. THAT brought the price into range.
When I closed up my office 10+ years ago, Sellam got both of the MPX-16s.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
2:15 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
The one that I was talking about was the MPX-16
That's the one I remember. I _read_ the articles at the time,
but so much of it was far, far over what I knew at the time
that about the only thing I walked away from the experience
with was the thought that "gee, this Intel stuff is *way* more
complicated than this 6502 stuff in front of me."
It was available... for $1200
$595 wave soldered kit
$400 bare board
It would have been out of my price comfort zone...
Waay over mine (it took me 2 years to save up half the
cost of a PET in 1979, but I was too young to have a
"real" job yet).
...if I hadn't gotten the chance to take over
somebody else's
unfinished (not even completely soldered yet) project.
THAT brought the price into range.
Sounds like a great deal for you.
I never knew anyone around here who had one. Plenty
of folks 10-15 years older than me had CP/M machines,
but the first 8088s I saw were genuine IBM 5150s and
the Eagle Computer clones we talk about from time to
time here.
So did you run CP/M-86 on yours or MS-DOS?
-ethan
3:19 p.m.
New subject: MPX-16 (Was: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines"
On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I have a booklet of schematics for a very similar kit,
but I don't think
the name is "Micromint". Also, wasn't the UART something like an 8274,
rather than an 8250, shared with DRAM on an ISA board?
8251A
http://books.google.com/books?id=zQWNinpbFx0C&pg=PA120&source=gbs_s…
p158
4:26 p.m.
New subject: MPX-16 (Was: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines"
On 03/07/2013 03:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Okay, I've got the schematics for the Explorer 88/PC (Netronics R&D, New
LItchfield, Conn), which uses an 8250 for async, has a separate keyboard
and cassette interface. No video as far as I can tell.
I also have an ISA card with 6 banks of 4164s and an Intual DUART on it.
And I recall the "Blue Seed" kits.
Lots of interest in the early PC, apparently.
--Chuck
I have a booklet of schematics for a very similar
kit, but I don't think
the name is "Micromint". Also, wasn't the UART something like an 8274,
rather than an 8250, shared with DRAM on an ISA board?
8251A
http://books.google.com/books?id=zQWNinpbFx0C&pg=PA120&source=gbs_s…
p158 
9:59 a.m.
On Mar 7, 2013, at 18:37 , Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the SB180 was Z80-based; the PC compatible was called MPX-16.
http://circuitcellar.com/featured/ciarcia-onward-upward/
> 1985 Mac
~$3000
> 1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION.
> 1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting
On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote:
True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985
[1] cost ~$1500
(new) including University of Texas' academic discount (I was a
student).
Sweet. I didn't have access to that deal. It would have been nice.
I decided that way because that price beat
Ciarcia Circuit
Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC,
"Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot)
I built one of those. 
8 Mar
8 Mar
4:50 a.m.
On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Raymond Wiker wrote:
On Mar 7, 2013, at 18:37 , Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the SB180 was Z80-based; the PC compatible was called MPX-16.
As pointed out by others, the SB180 used a Hitachi HD64180 cpu. A
superset of Z80 functionality.
--
> 1985
Mac ~$3000
> 1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION.
> 1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting
On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote:
True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985
[1] cost ~$1500
(new) including University of Texas' academic discount (I was a
student).
Sweet. I didn't have access to that deal. It would have been nice.
I decided that way because that price beat
Ciarcia Circuit
Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC,
"Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot)
I built one of those.
7 Mar
7 Mar
10:01 a.m.
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
I held out. I went from the 6502 (which I used daily from about 1979-1986)
to the 68000 (Amiga, 1986-2006) and mostly bypassed PC hardware until I
was able to run Linux on it (1992- ) I did use that first PC for DOS games
and such as well, but I didn't purchase one until 5 months after Linux came
out. Bought it as a 386X/40 motherboard + 4MB of RAM (when RAM was
$40 per 1MB stick) and built my first system around it.
So for a datapoint on the $100 vs $2000 debate, this was an up-to-date
machine for its day, and cost me approx $1000 to build a good DOS box or
entry-level Linux box in April, 1992. It was far from the cheapest computer
available.
-ethan
On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote:
I got a Mac SE in the late 1980s via student pricing. My mother paid for
it (legal according to the discount sale terms) and I left it at her shop
three blocks from the University (and three blocks from my campus
house) for her to use during the day and me to write papers on at
night - she had the $5000 Apple LaserWriter and the $1500 LaserWriter
Plus upgrade, so I was happy to have that at my fingertips.
True in general, but my Fat Mac in about
1985 [1] cost ~$1500 (new)
Sweet. I didn't have access to that deal. It would have been nice. "Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9
slot)
I built one of those.
Saw those in Byte but most of it was way over my head at the time.
and the 68000
looked more powerful to me than the 8086.
Unarguably better, although PC had more
software and hardware selection
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