12 Aug
1997
12 Aug
'97
6:08 a.m.
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:33:33 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Willing graced us
with these words:
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, William Donzelli wrote:
I had the same sort of reaction when I heard the news through
different channels. Needless to say I was less than pleased. However,
Mr. Donzelli believes there to be hope in this; he states that the
guy in question was willing to let him know about future systems
like that.
I also talked to a guy that deals with old
computers. Two weeks
ago, he _finally_ scrapped out a bunch of old machines - really
old. Amongst the deaths were various PDP-8s, two PDP-9s, a
Burroughs mainframe, and an IBM 7090 of some sort.
I think; I may scream! *How* do we reach these people *before* things like
this happen?!?
That's the proverbial $64,000 (65,536?) dollar question. I guess
we'll have to get to know the various scrap dealers (and especially
"recyclers") in our areas.
(preferably without starting a mad rush from yuppie
collector
wannabes!)
This is another hot-button issue with me, having seen what the
price of Altairs and the like is now. (No, the price is not
justifiable - other than the machines are very "trendy" right now
and speculators think they can make a killing on them.) However,
given the size of things like PDP-9s and mainframes, I doubt that
systems in that class are likely to fall victim to "speculative
collection". Some of the smaller machines in the PDP-8 class might,
but the PDP-8/I I just acquired filled half of the rear of my
minivan (the other half had an Interdata Model 4 in it) - a bit
too large for the average yuppie. You've got to be pretty sick to
collect things the size of refrigerators (yes, I know, I fit the bill).
Cheers.
--
______________________________________________________________________
| | |
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA |
| mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | |
| http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 |
|________________________________________________|_____________________|
12 Aug
12 Aug
6:17 a.m.
I had the same sort of reaction when I heard the
news through
different channels. Needless to say I was less than pleased. However,
Mr. Donzelli believes there to be hope in this; he states that the
guy in question was willing to let him know about future systems
like that.
Although he thinks I am a nutbar for wanting such things, he did tell me
to bother him every so often. Occasionally, he probably does get a goodie
or two.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
7:01 a.m.
Carl R. Friend wrote:
This is another hot-button issue with me, having
seen what the
price of Altairs and the like is now. (No, the price is not
justifiable - other than the machines are very "trendy" right now
and speculators think they can make a killing on them.) However,
I would disagree with your statement that the price is not justifiable; as
we all know, the price of something is the price people are willing to pay.
The more people that are looking for these classics, the more they will be
saved from the unmentionable that happened to the PDP9, etc. For my part, I
would rather such computers were desireable enough that they are worth more
to a collector (cost wise) than salvage dealers; the marketplace will
decide what they are really worth. And just to call a spade a spade, of
course I would rather acquire these machines for free!
7:46 a.m.
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Marvin wrote:
Carl R. Friend wrote:
The problem I see with this view, is that it does not fully take into
consideration the class/capabilities/intent of "people" who are throwing
these outlandish amounts of money around!
The 'speculators' who are out to try to make a quick buck on these
machines while having no regard for their preservation or history will
only make life much more difficult (and expensive) for those who would
preserve both the machine and its history.
Once the percieved value of a given item is (publically) driven up, either
by speculators with too much money to spend or too many badly out of touch
New York/L.A. Times articles, it can take a very long time for the prices
to return to reality (if they ever do).
And once an item is in the hands of one of these money oriented types, it
may well languish in a vault(sic) until someone will pay the 'proper'
prices, or when the novelty has worn off the item may still end up in the
trash rather than being released for a more reasonable price. (don't
laugh, I regularly deal with a *lot* of these types!)
There has got to be a balance somewhere, I'm just not sure how to get
there.
Are *you* prepared to pay $500US for an Osborne or a TI99-4a ???
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
This is another hot-button issue with me,
having seen what the
price of Altairs and the like is now. (No, the price is not
justifiable - other than the machines are very "trendy" right now
and speculators think they can make a killing on them.) However,
I would disagree with your statement that the price is not justifiable; as
we all know, the price of something is the price people are willing to pay.
The more people that are looking for these classics, the more they will be
saved from the unmentionable that happened to the PDP9, etc. For my part, I
would rather such computers were desireable enough that they are worth more
to a collector (cost wise) than salvage dealers; the marketplace will
decide what they are really worth. And just to call a spade a spade, of
course I would rather acquire these machines for free!
12:48 p.m.
James Willing wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Marvin wrote:
saved from the unmentionable that happened to the
PDP9, etc. For my
part, I
would rather such computers were desireable
enough that they are worth
more
to a collector (cost wise) than salvage dealers;
the marketplace will
decide what they are really worth. And just to call a spade a spade, of
course I would rather acquire these machines for
free!
The problem I see with this view, is that it does not fully take into
consideration the class/capabilities/intent of "people" who are throwing
these outlandish amounts of money around! The 'speculators' who are out to try to make a
quick buck on these
machines while having no regard for their preservation or history will
only make life much more difficult (and expensive) for those who would
preserve both the machine and its history.
I think that there will always be people around who don't have the "purest"
motives for doing anything, and collecting computers is no exception.
Antique dealers could be considered collectors only in it for the money, BUT
without that force being present, a lot more collectibles would be in that
great landfill in the sky.
Once the percieved value of a given item is
(publically) driven up, either
by speculators with too much money to spend or too many badly out of touch
New York/L.A. Times articles, it can take a very long time for the prices
to return to reality (if they ever do).
And once an item is in the hands of one of these money oriented types, it
may well languish in a vault(sic) until someone will pay the 'proper'
prices, or when the novelty has worn off the item may still end up in the
trash rather than being released for a more reasonable price. (don't
laugh, I regularly deal with a *lot* of these types!)
There has got to be a balance somewhere, I'm just
not sure how to get
there.
I think art would also fall in the catagory of how much is it *really*
worth. Who was that guy a number of centurys ago, Michael something or
other, who did some artsy things that many people consider worth a lot of
money now? Do you think that his paintings, etc. would have stayed around
if some significant value had not been placed on them?
Another thing to think about is the opportunity that the speculators
provide. I don't recall the number of museums spread around the world, but
it is at least a dozen or two :). Right now, I am in the learning stages of
finding out what it takes to run a museum and donations seem to be a
biggie. If a non-profit status museum is available, I can't imagine any
speculator trashing something instead of taking a tax rightoff.
And yes, this type of stuff WILL make it harder for people to collect
computers. HOWEVER, we are still at the stage where the perceived value of
most older computers is not very high thus making it relatively easy for
anyone who has the desire to get a fairly complete selection of computers
relatively inexpensively. And since we seem to be some of the few concerned
with the preservation of old computers and their history, that leaves us in
a rather responsible position and I think the future will look back kindly
at our efforts!
Are *you* prepared to pay $500US for an Osborne or a
TI99-4a ???
No, but I do have a couple I would sell for $500 US :)!
6:26 p.m.
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Marvin wrote:
And yes, this type of stuff WILL make it harder for
people to collect
computers. HOWEVER, we are still at the stage where the perceived value of
most older computers is not very high thus making it relatively easy for
anyone who has the desire to get a fairly complete selection of computers
relatively inexpensively. And since we seem to be some of the few concerned
with the preservation of old computers and their history, that leaves us in
a rather responsible position and I think the future will look back kindly
at our efforts!
I think it is up to us to some extent to not give in to high prices
demanded by people selling their old computers. As I've indicated in
previous messages, I ALWAYS haggle a deal, no matter how mundane. In
this way I serve two useful purposes: 1) I keep people from trying to
command high prices for old computers, 2) I conserve my money so that I
am able to buy up as many computers as possible. The other day I haggled
over a quarter for god's sake! (Relative to the total cost of what I was
buying it was 25%, but still, it was just a damn quarter! In the end
somebody came along and gave the seller a quarter for me! Ok, call me
cheap, but sometimes I just get caught up in the fever.)
So anyway, ALWAYS negotiate with the seller. In the end, everyone wins,
especially YOU!
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
8:14 a.m.
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11:40 a.m.
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Unfortunately, the high demand for common
"trendy" machines (i.e. IMSAI's,
Altairs, whatever) often displaces the preservation of machines which
are much rarer, which are far more important historically, and which
present far greater difficulties to preserve, maintain, and use.
Not as long as there are people like us to preserve the balance of systems.
For example, any average Joe could assemble a perfect
IMSAI-lookalike
using still commercially available parts. The IMSAI chassis is certainly
the single most common S-100 box ever made. So why are IMSAI's regarded
as so valuable, while all the S-100 boards made by enterprising guys in their
garage in small quantities are undesirable? I really don't know. But I
do know that the guys making S-100 boards in their garages were the true movers
and shakers of leading technology for most of a decade.
In time, if this hobby becomes another speculator's attraction, these
boards will start to take on monetary value. As of now, the only real
value would be to those who need these boards to make a working system.
Other than that, most of us are just collecting them for the
preservational value, ie. the value inherent in preserving any bit of
history so that we may better understand our past when it is long forgotten.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
7:20 a.m.
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7:29 a.m.
New subject: Sickness (was: A moment of silence, please)
(on a little lighter note...)
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote:
...the PDP-8/I I just acquired filled half of the rear
of my
minivan (the other half had an Interdata Model 4 in it) - a bit
too large for the average yuppie. You've got to be pretty sick to
collect things the size of refrigerators (yes, I know, I fit the bill).
Well, if size is any indication then I'm well into the 'sickness' too!
(8/i, 8/e, 11/40, 11/70, 11/780, 11/750 among others) And quite happy to
be there!
Of course, then there is Paul Pierce who can quite easily embarrass most
of us with a single piece of his collection (based on mass/volume) B^}
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
13 Aug
13 Aug
3:49 a.m.
New subject: Sickness (was: A moment of silence, please)
James Willing wrote:
(on a little lighter note...)
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote:
sick, sick, sick, sick, sick...
But wait!
...the PDP-8/I I just acquired filled half of the
rear of my
minivan (the other half had an Interdata Model 4 in it) - a bit
too large for the average yuppie. You've got to be pretty sick to
collect things the size of refrigerators (yes, I know, I fit the bill).
Well, if size is any indication then I'm well into the 'sickness' too!
(8/i, 8/e, 11/40, 11/70, 11/780, 11/750 among others) And quite happy to
be there!
The problem I see with this view, is that it does not
fully take into
consideration the class/capabilities/intent of "people" who are throwing
these outlandish amounts of money around!
even sicker...
Are *you* prepared to pay $500US for an Osborne or a
TI99-4a ???
Not quite THAT sick...
I ALWAYS haggle a deal, no matter how mundane. In
this way I serve two useful purposes: 1) I keep people from trying to
command high prices for old computers, 2) I conserve my money so that I
am able to buy up as many computers as possible. The other day I haggled
over a quarter for god's sake! (Relative to the total cost of what I was
buying it was 25%, but still, it was just a damn quarter! In the end
somebody came along and gave the seller a quarter for me! Ok, call me
cheap, but sometimes I just get caught up in the fever.)
So anyway, ALWAYS negotiate with the seller. In the end, everyone wins,
especially YOU!
Sam
You're a tough negotiator, Sam. I can see there's nothing to be gained
butting heads with you except maybe a sore noggin. I'll go ahead and
eat 25% (I've had worse things in my mouth). The TI's yours for
$375.
In time, if this hobby becomes another
speculator's attraction, these
boards will start to take on monetary value. As of now, the only real
value would be to those who need these boards to make a working system.
Other than that, most of us are just collecting them for the
preservational value, ie. the value inherent in preserving any bit of
history so that we may better understand our past when it is long forgotten.
Sam
delusional...
No, I shouldn't say that as it would be unwise to spectulate on the
motivations of a man known to fight a crowd of panhandlers and street
drunks over a dropped quarter. Knowing how these things get exaggerated
over
the web, I discounted the rumors about you killing two of them in the
process. (You didn't really, did you?)
James Willing observed:
The 'speculators' who are out to try to make a quick buck on these
machines while having no regard for their preservation or history will
only make life much more difficult (and expensive) for those who would
preserve both the machine and its history.
highly romanticized...
May I look through your rose colored glasses for a spell? (assuming you
have a sense of humor and lack a history of violence ;-)
Gee I thought I was clear on my motivations for "collecting" all these
______________ (fill in the blank, start with "computers"). An
obsessive/
compulsive hoarding neurosis with anal retentive overtones. "Can you
believe anyone would acutally throw one of these (display nonfuctional,
partially disassembled "treasure" to all) babies in the TRASH! Whoa!
This must be my LUCKY DAY!" I like to think I've expanded on the mere
"fixation" aspect with elaborate regressive fantasies to enhance my
little
trips down memory lane. "A Micro VAX? I "always" wanted a Micro VAX.
And it's FREE? I want one. I want two. I GOTTA have it!. <Tantrum>
And I really do want one. God only knows what I would do with it.
Must have read a few too many DEC sales promos on the overnights I spent
camping out in the machine room with Field Service while they sacrificed
chickens over the 2060. I knew I should have grabbed the 11/750 when my
old boss offered it. Would have had PLENTY of room if my (ex)wife
had the imaginination to see past "weird" and appreciate the bohemian
uniqness and "style" exhibited by sleeping on a matress atop the system
box and drive units!
Yes, it's definitely a "toy" thing with me. Will one of you historians
please note that in the record?
And now for the POINT. I'll bet you didn't think I had one, did you?
Any such speculators are complete fools. Believe me,
I've met
many of them! Most of them don't know a serial console from a
memory-mapped video display!
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
I think we can all agree that lamers like these don't DESERVE fine
examples of classic computers as the historical value these units
is just wasted on such cretans. They probably don't know how to
play with the damn thing either. Though you may disagree with
the morality involved, I hope you can see why I'm drawn to give myself
up to a higher calling and become:
Mark W Kuefel
Classic Computer Thief for Hire
Discrection Assured
Discount Rates for Classic Computer List Members
Like Robin Hood, takes from the lame, gives to the insane.
Of course, then there is Paul Pierce who can quite
easily embarrass most
of us with a single piece of his collection (based on mass/volume)
-jim
Well, we'll see after I've had the chance to make a few midnight
"visits"
to a machine room or two ;-)
Mark W Kuefel
kuefel(a)sky.net
and THE COLISEUM SLAVE (Netwrecker II)
Anyone "ordering" minis or mainframes must select from a "display"
site
that has a loading dock and forklift available. (I've never seen a
picture
of Robin Hood wearing a hernia belt, have you?)
6:38 a.m.
New subject: Sickness (was: A moment of silence, please)
On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Mark W Kuefel wrote:
May I look through your rose colored glasses for a
spell? (assuming you
have a sense of humor and lack a history of violence ;-)
Gee I thought I was clear on my motivations for "collecting" all these
______________ (fill in the blank, start with "computers"). An
obsessive/
compulsive hoarding neurosis with anal retentive overtones. "Can you
believe anyone would acutally throw one of these (display nonfuctional,
partially disassembled "treasure" to all) babies in the TRASH! Whoa!
This must be my LUCKY DAY!" I like to think I've expanded on the mere
"fixation" aspect with elaborate regressive fantasies to enhance my
little
trips down memory lane. "A Micro VAX? I "always" wanted a Micro VAX.
And it's FREE? I want one. I want two. I GOTTA have it!. <Tantrum>
And I really do want one. God only knows what I would do with it.
Must have read a few too many DEC sales promos on the overnights I spent
camping out in the machine room with Field Service while they sacrificed
chickens over the 2060. I knew I should have grabbed the 11/750 when my
old boss offered it. Would have had PLENTY of room if my (ex)wife
had the imaginination to see past "weird" and appreciate the bohemian
uniqness and "style" exhibited by sleeping on a matress atop the system
box and drive units!
Yes, it's definitely a "toy" thing with me. Will one of you historians
please note that in the record?
I think you hit this squarely on the head, with a sledgehammer no doubt.
Ok, I admit, there is no rhyme or reason to this, no grand scheme of
preservation. I just want these old systems. I just assign noble
reasons to mask my insanity.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
9841
days inactive
9842
days old
11 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
carl.friend＠stoneweb.com -
dastar＠crl.com -
jimw＠agora.rdrop.com -
kuefel＠sky.net -
marvin＠rain.org -
shoppa＠alph02.triumf.ca -
william＠ans.net