7 Apr
2001
7 Apr
'01
2:12 p.m.
just wondering....am i the only kid on this list?
Robert Cobbins
7 Apr
7 Apr
2:37 p.m.
Nope - I've been a kid for 37 years. I suspect I'll be a kid a lot longer ;)
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: <Demon02554(a)aol.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 9:12 PM
Subject: just outta curiosity
just wondering....am i the only kid on this list?
Robert Cobbins
2:40 p.m.
On Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 10:12:31PM -0400, Demon02554(a)aol.com (Demon02554(a)aol.com) wrote:
just wondering....am i the only kid on this list?
Let's see -- the majority of the folks on this list spend much of
their waking hours keeping an eye out for interesting toys, spends a
disproportionate amount of money bringing those toys home (or
constructing a home for them, etc.), spends their leisure time seated
at console playing with them...
No, you're not the only kid on this list. But it may be that the rest
of the kids on the list might be older than you. :-)
-Rich
--
------------------------------ Rich Lafferty ---------------------------
Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services
Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625
------------------------- rich(a)alcor.concordia.ca ----------------------
2:49 p.m.
Nope, definitely not. I am. :-) Just gettin into all this stuph, workin on a
homebrew 6502 SBC at the moment.
-Lanny
----- Original Message -----
From: <Demon02554(a)aol.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 11:42 PM
Subject: just outta curiosity
just wondering....am i the only kid on this list?
Robert Cobbins
4:20 p.m.
Quoting Demon02554(a)aol.com:
just wondering....am i the only kid on this list?
It depends on your definition of 'kid'. I'm 22, but I am probably near
the young end of the distribution as well. The fact that we're young,
however, does not make us any less deserving of the pleasure of exploring
the history of computing through classic computers. Granted, we might
know less than the older gurus here, but we are just as important. Lack
of knowledge is a temporary obstacle; even the gurus were neophytes once.
If the traditions, folklore, and spirit of computing in ages past are to
survive, then at some point the flag must be passed to the next generation.
So don't get discouraged by your age; get out there and start learning
stuff.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu
6:48 p.m.
Very well stated and welcome to all that are interested in your given area!
Bill Claussen
elecdata1
"Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote:
Quoting Demon02554(a)aol.com:
just wondering....am i the only kid on this list?
It depends on your definition of 'kid'. I'm 22, but I am probably near
the young end of the distribution as well. The fact that we're young,
however, does not make us any less deserving of the pleasure of exploring
the history of computing through classic computers. Granted, we might
know less than the older gurus here, but we are just as important. Lack
of knowledge is a temporary obstacle; even the gurus were neophytes once.
If the traditions, folklore, and spirit of computing in ages past are to
survive, then at some point the flag must be passed to the next generation.
So don't get discouraged by your age; get out there and start learning
stuff.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu 
8:26 p.m.
New subject: Looking for 27C020's at a decent price.
local electronics shop (active electronics) wants $15 a pop for 27C020's I
need a couple at a decent price. anyone know of any sources??
8 Apr
8 Apr
4 a.m.
New subject: Looking for 27C020's at a decent price.
At 01:26 08-04-2001 -0700, Geoff Reed wrote:
local electronics shop (active electronics) wants $15 a
pop for 27C020's I
need a couple at a decent price. anyone know of any sources??
www.jameco.com only wants about $6-$7 each if I recall. I think they have
a $15.00 minimum order.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).
3:27 a.m.
On Sat, 7 Apr 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
It depends on your definition of 'kid'.
I'm 22, but I am probably
near the young end of the distribution as well. The fact that we're
young, however, does not make us any less deserving of the pleasure of
exploring the history of computing through classic computers.
Granted, we might know less than the older gurus here, but we are just
as important. Lack of knowledge is a temporary obstacle; even the
gurus were neophytes once. If the traditions, folklore, and spirit of
computing in ages past are to survive, then at some point the flag
must be passed to the next generation.
Nope, we intend to keep everything from you young whipper-snappers. Your
first history lesson is to understand that computers used to sit behind
big panes of glass, accessible only to the priesthood that maintained
them. You communed with them only through a small hole where you passed
your punched cards and got your results back (usually just error
messages).
So too it is with computer history. You can only have access to the
knowledge we pass to you through the little hole in the window. Do not
try to subvert our authority or we will find it fit to smite thee.
And let's just get one thing straight, you were either born to compute or
you ended up being some post-degree market-molded wannabee nerd who
couldn't get a job in your chosen profession and just jumped on the
bandwagon during the great Internet bubble economy of the late 1990s and
"became" a programmer.
So it is not true that "gurus were neophytes once". Gurus are born,
not made.
Ah, nothing like a good rabble rousing to start a Sunday morning.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:10 a.m.
You know, I really liked Jeffrey's observation, but Sellam's
reply gave me a good chuckle. My thoughts on it are that history is
something to be passed on, with as little personal bias and as much
fact as possible, so that the same mistakes aren't repeated. Often,
it takes the fresh eyes to bring something into proper perspective
when the original participants are too close to the problem to see it
in an unbiased light.
Jeff
On Sat, 7 Apr 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
--
Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
It depends on your definition of 'kid'.
I'm 22, but I am probably
near the young end of the distribution as well. The fact that we're
young, however, does not make us any less deserving of the pleasure of
exploring the history of computing through classic computers.
Granted, we might know less than the older gurus here, but we are just
as important. Lack of knowledge is a temporary obstacle; even the
gurus were neophytes once. If the traditions, folklore, and spirit of
computing in ages past are to survive, then at some point the flag
must be passed to the next generation.
Nope, we intend to keep everything from you young whipper-snappers. Your
first history lesson is to understand that computers used to sit behind
big panes of glass, accessible only to the priesthood that maintained
them. You communed with them only through a small hole where you passed
your punched cards and got your results back (usually just error
messages).
So too it is with computer history. You can only have access to the
knowledge we pass to you through the little hole in the window. Do not
try to subvert our authority or we will find it fit to smite thee.
And let's just get one thing straight, you were either born to compute or
you ended up being some post-degree market-molded wannabee nerd who
couldn't get a job in your chosen profession and just jumped on the
bandwagon during the great Internet bubble economy of the late 1990s and
"became" a programmer.
So it is not true that "gurus were neophytes once". Gurus are born,
not made.
Ah, nothing like a good rabble rousing to start a Sunday morning.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:28 a.m.
On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote:
You know, I really liked Jeffrey's observation,
but Sellam's
reply gave me a good chuckle. My thoughts on it are that history is
something to be passed on, with as little personal bias and as much
fact as possible, so that the same mistakes aren't repeated. Often,
it takes the fresh eyes to bring something into proper perspective
when the original participants are too close to the problem to see it
in an unbiased light.
Good point. Revisionist historians are oft times derided for trying to
see into events things the actual participants claim was just not the
case. But sometimes it's really their own personal biases that taint
their memories.
It's important to collect as many objects, stories, and data as possible
today, so that tomorrow's historians can paint an accurate picture of what
when on we were in the midst of it all.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
9:32 a.m.
Revisionism is fine as long as you have the documentation,
1st hand accounts, and anything else to back it up. One problem with
being a participant though, especially if it's something on a grand
scale, is that rarely do you get to see anything other than the
smallest piece of the pie. One has to wonder though how much of what
is written as 'factual history' would actually be proved wrong if
more hard core data was available? A good example is the Dynalogic
Hyperion and Commodore link. During my initial research on the
machine, I found vague references to the possibility that Commodore
had at least thought of producing them. Not even Jim Brain's site
had anything hard on the connection. Then a few months later I
started talking to an ex-Commodore UK employee and he explained the
link to me, which I've documented on my page. Granted, it's not
written documentation, but it is direct from someone who is said to
have been part of it. Not a big piece of the puzzle, but saved from
nearly being forgotten all the same.
Jeff
Good point. Revisionist historians are oft times
derided for trying to
see into events things the actual participants claim was just not the
case. But sometimes it's really their own personal biases that taint
their memories.
It's important to collect as many objects, stories, and data as possible
today, so that tomorrow's historians can paint an accurate picture of what
when on we were in the midst of it all.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
--
Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
12:29 p.m.
On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote:
Revisionism is fine as long as you have the
documentation, 1st
hand accounts, and anything else to back it up. One problem with
being a participant though, especially if it's something on a grand
scale, is that rarely do you get to see anything other than the
smallest piece of the pie. One has to wonder though how much of what
is written as 'factual history' would actually be proved wrong if more
hard core data was available? A good example is the Dynalogic
Hyperion and Commodore link. During my initial research on the
machine, I found vague references to the possibility that Commodore
had at least thought of producing them. Not even Jim Brain's site had
anything hard on the connection. Then a few months later I started
talking to an ex-Commodore UK employee and he explained the link to
me, which I've documented on my page. Granted, it's not written
documentation, but it is direct from someone who is said to have been
part of it. Not a big piece of the puzzle, but saved from nearly
being forgotten all the same.
Very cool! This is the kind of information I was speaking of when I said
it is very important to collect this data now before these first hand
sources pass on.
I was watching the movie Apollo 13 last night and realized how cool it is
to still be able to shake the hand of the man that first stepped foot on
the moon. I hope someday, somehow, I get that experience so I can tell my
grandkids :)
One great thing about living in the part of the world where I do is that
you routinely run into giants of the computing age. As an example, any
Computer Museum event you attend affords you the opportunity to not only
see Gordon Bell, but to actually go up to him, shake his hand, and talk to
him about the computers he designed! Now THAT'S cool!
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
6:54 p.m.
One great thing about living in the part of the world
where I do is that
you routinely run into giants of the computing age. As an example, any
Computer Museum event you attend affords you the opportunity to not only
see Gordon Bell, but to actually go up to him, shake his hand, and talk to
him about the computers he designed! Now THAT'S cool!
Years ago I used to be a member of the L5 society, and talk about events
with interesting people in the space program within touching distance.
5:41 a.m.
Ahhhh..... young Vs. Old. As (i think) the youngest person on this list, I
would think that, although older people probably know a lot more, younger
people would be fresher and open to new ideas. As a general assumption, I
figure a lot of the younger computer junkies were probably bred up on video
games, probably either thought, "hey, i wanna know how to make these
games!!" or "Hey, i wonder if there's anything more?". I myself own a
PS2
(the new) and a C64, CoCo1, Amiga 500, and a ZX81 (the really old). I'd
rather be hacking at those than mindlessly playing PS2.
Now, from another front, the older guys (and gals) around here probably were
in the perfect spot for new technology, some witnessing the moon landing as
a kid or teenager, and being caught up in the microcomputer revolution. I'm
not one to guess, but I figure that living in Silicon Valley in the mid to
late 70s must have been utterly amazing.
- Lanny
PS And if any old, wise elder has a nice PIC programmer to pawn off on a
mindless young guru-wannabe, thou shalt contact me.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: just outta curiosity
Nope, we intend to keep everything from you young
whipper-snappers. Your
first history lesson is to understand that computers used to sit behind
big panes of glass, accessible only to the priesthood that maintained
them. You communed with them only through a small hole where you passed
your punched cards and got your results back (usually just error
messages).
So too it is with computer history. You can only have access to the
knowledge we pass to you through the little hole in the window. Do not
try to subvert our authority or we will find it fit to smite thee.
And let's just get one thing straight, you were either born to compute or
you ended up being some post-degree market-molded wannabee nerd who
couldn't get a job in your chosen profession and just jumped on the
bandwagon during the great Internet bubble economy of the late 1990s and
"became" a programmer.
So it is not true that "gurus were neophytes once". Gurus are born,
not made.
Ah, nothing like a good rabble rousing to start a Sunday morning.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
6:44 a.m.
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7:29 a.m.
On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Lanny Cox wrote:
Now, from another front, the older guys (and gals)
around here
probably were in the perfect spot for new technology, some witnessing
the moon landing as a kid or teenager, and being caught up in the
microcomputer revolution. I'm not one to guess, but I figure that
living in Silicon Valley in the mid to late 70s must have been utterly
amazing.
Even these days, it still is pretty amazing, actually :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:45 a.m.
Quoting Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com>om>:
On Sat, 7 Apr 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
:-) Yes, it's a little different for us, and yes, we must respect our
elders. Did I not just give my elders the title "guru"?
It depends on your definition of 'kid'.
I'm 22, but I am probably
near the young end of the distribution as well. The fact that we're
young, however, does not make us any less deserving of the pleasure of
exploring the history of computing through classic computers.
Granted, we might know less than the older gurus here, but we are just
as important. Lack of knowledge is a temporary obstacle; even the
gurus were neophytes once. If the traditions, folklore, and spirit of
computing in ages past are to survive, then at some point the flag
must be passed to the next generation.
Nope, we intend to keep everything from you young whipper-snappers.
Your first history lesson is to understand that computers used to sit
behind big panes of glass, accessible only to the priesthood that
maintained them. You communed with them only through a small hole
where you passed your punched cards and got your results back (usually
just error messages).
So too it is with computer history. You can only have access to the
knowledge we pass to you through the little hole in the window. Do not
try to subvert our authority or we will find it fit to smite thee. And let's just get one thing straight, you were
either born to compute
or you ended up being some post-degree market-molded wannabee nerd who
couldn't get a job in your chosen profession and just jumped on the
bandwagon during the great Internet bubble economy of the late 1990s and
"became" a programmer.
Well, I was most definitely born that way. Computing runs through my
blood; programming is my religion. I absolutely detest the wannabees of
which you speak, those to whom it is just another good-paying job. Those
types are quite numerous at college, and I make every possible attempt to
treat them as a lower class. It's easy to spot them when they say things
like "Man, this programming assignment will be tough. I haven't had to
write anything since two semesters ago. Maybe I should change my major
back to business. And that stupid <professor>, why does he grade so hard?
I failed his <some-class-I-made-an-A-in> because he grades too hard."
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu
6:11 a.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Sat, 7 Apr 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
Ah the BOFH! I was a BOFH and a BUFH (at the same time ;-)
Sellam have you ever had a disk drive try to sneak up on you while in
the temple of glass? ;-)
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
It depends on your definition of 'kid'.
I'm 22, but I am probably
near the young end of the distribution as well. The fact that we're
young, however, does not make us any less deserving of the pleasure of
exploring the history of computing through classic computers.
Granted, we might know less than the older gurus here, but we are just
as important. Lack of knowledge is a temporary obstacle; even the
gurus were neophytes once. If the traditions, folklore, and spirit of
computing in ages past are to survive, then at some point the flag
must be passed to the next generation.
Nope, we intend to keep everything from you young whipper-snappers. Your
first history lesson is to understand that computers used to sit behind
big panes of glass, accessible only to the priesthood that maintained
them. You communed with them only through a small hole where you passed
your punched cards and got your results back (usually just error
messages).
So too it is with computer history. You can only have access to the
knowledge we pass to you through the little hole in the window. Do not
try to subvert our authority or we will find it fit to smite thee.
And let's just get one thing straight, you were either born to compute or
you ended up being some post-degree market-molded wannabee nerd who
couldn't get a job in your chosen profession and just jumped on the
bandwagon during the great Internet bubble economy of the late 1990s and
"became" a programmer.
So it is not true that "gurus were neophytes once". Gurus are born,
not made.
Ah, nothing like a good rabble rousing to start a Sunday morning. 
9:11 a.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
If you never raced RP06's across the floor on a PDP11 or Vax you're too
young.
-Bill
--
bpechter(a)monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10
Brainbench MVP | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
Unix Sys.Admin. | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour"
So it is not true that "gurus were neophytes
once". Gurus are born,
not made.
Ah, nothing like a good rabble rousing to start a Sunday morning.
Ah the BOFH! I was a BOFH and a BUFH (at the same time ;-)
Sellam have you ever had a disk drive try to sneak up on you while in
the temple of glass? ;-)
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) 
6:50 p.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
So it is not true that "gurus were neophytes
once". Gurus are born,
not made.
:-)
Ah, nothing like a good rabble rousing to start a
Sunday morning.
That was a good Monday morning startup.. or should I say human IPL...
e.
========================================================================
Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella(a)softstar.it
Soft*Star srl eb(a)vax.cnuce.cnr.it
InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092
Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487
10143 Torino, Italy
Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software,
manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals
==========================================================================
6:07 a.m.
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7:31 a.m.
Tony,
Haven't read all of your message yet, but wanted to fire this off,
before I head out the door.
I don't blame someone so much for not wanting to learn, as much as I
dislike it when they don't respect it. For instance, I have friends
that always make fun of my old computers. I don't blame them for not
being interested, but it makes me irritaed sometimes when they come down
on me for liking them. Granted, since we are friend we don't come down
to hard on each other, but still.....
Now, if it is a job situation, then I believe people are obligated to
learn about stuff, and can be upsetting when they don't.
Hopefully, I haven't taken your statements out of context.... like I
said, I didn't get through your whole message. This is one of those
times I am checking email, when I should be doing something else :-)
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Tony Duell wrote:
There is nothing wrong with not being knowledgeable
about something. The
attitude I don't like, though, is not wanting to learn.
8:04 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
In that the equipment on the plane may fall into the classic category,
this message might be on-topic...... Kinda.
I think the Chinese are holding our people and demanding an impossible
apology to give themselves time to hack whatever is left of the gear
aboard our plane.
Please do send your thoughts on this to:
chinaembassy_us(a)fmprc.gov.cn
This is the e-mail address of the Chinese Embassy in Washington DC.
Our people need our support now. Later is never in this game.
Regards,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
8:53 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Jeff,
Not to start a flame war, but...
I felt stongly about the subject until a friend asked, " What would *we*
be doing if the roles were reversed?" Answer. Except for the apology
part, EXACTLY the same thing.
We would hold the flight crew in seclusion pending a determination of
whether they wished to defect or not. Our 'experts' would be taking the
aircraft apart. We would be stalling the other side until our 'experts'
were finished.
Jim
5:17 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Not to start a flame war, but...
Fighter jet and large heavy turboprop spy plane collide, and I think by
definition the bulk of the blame has to go on the fighterjet.
Want some wild speculation? How about the fighter pilot was INSTRUCTED to
crash into the spy plane to force it to land on chinese soil.
IMHO Greed, worldwide, is currently blinding people to a proper course of
action with China.
9:31 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Flame-avoiders, skip to the end for a KIM-1 question.
The rest, prepare for controversy. :)
Not to start a
flame war, but...
Fighter jet and large heavy turboprop spy plane
collide, and I think by
definition the bulk of the blame has to go on the fighterjet.
Not necessarily. Standard procedure is to harass and
play chicken with enemy aircraft approaching your
airspace. That means often matching speed and
approaching very, very closely.
It could as easily have been the prop plane
that suddenly maneuvered into the jet.
Besides, if it were deliberate, wouldn't the pilot have struck in such a
way that survival was likely, especially given the much more vulnerable
position
of the small jet vs. the huge spy plane in an impact?
Want some wild speculation? How about the fighter pilot was INSTRUCTED to
crash into the spy plane to force it to land on chinese soil.
I think it was an accident, but let's have some fun and
imagine an at least equally likely scenario that USA deliberately hit the
Chinese jet.
It's a fact that the current
Administration has been hell-bent on destroying relations
with China and North Korea from the very start --
provoking China by negotiating arms sales with Taiwan,
then sabotaging North-South Korea talks in the US by
falsely accusing North Korea of violating its treaty
obligations (even South Korea agreed it was just one
obligation, and the North lived up to it perfectly.)
Add to that telling Russia they're "just not that important",
and you get the impression the Administration is angling
to provoke as much anti-US sentiment in the East as possible.
One reasonale analysis might be that it's a deliberate attempt to rekindle a
cold war, with China and possibly
North Korea this time. (Another is that the US President
is a moron.)
Not sure how submarines killing Japanese high school
kids or then landing a nuclear submarine on Japanese
soil in explicit (and unprecedented) violation of US
treaties with Japan fits in with the theme exactly, but
there can be no question that a major focus of this
administration is to damage relations as much as
possible in the shortest possible time. There are so
many accidents, and diplomatic gaffes, that it reminds
me of the famous saying: "Never attribute to malice
what can adequately be explained by abject stupidity."
It's sad when you wish it's stupidity that explains all
this because the alternative is so much worse.
Never has a presidency failed so quickly in modern times.
The Republican's answer to Jimmy Carter, only far more so.
IMHO Greed, worldwide, is currently blinding people to
a proper course of
action with China.
So this discussion isn't totally off-topic, does anyone have
any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
I don't think it can be repaired, and If I were to add
an external keypad, I'd want it to have the same matrix
and legends as the originals if possible. Is there any kind
of kit or system where you can make up your own semi-
professional looking keypad?
Thanks for any pointers.
-- Ross
10:33 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Monday, April 9, 2001, at 06:03 AM, Mike Ford wrote:
If the KIM-1 keyboard is of the same type as my VIM-1, there's not
much to take apart. Thin pressure sensitive pads soldered directly to
the main circuit board.
Jeff
So this
discussion isn't totally off-topic, does anyone have
any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
Step one, take it apart and
see what you have.
9 Apr
9 Apr
2:46 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
So this discussion isn't totally off-topic, does
anyone have
any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
Find a cheap Chinese-made replacement keyboard.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
11:52 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
Hehe, brilliant reply.
I was hoping to do something more home-made
and customized to have the same layout.
The odds of getting that in a premade keyboard
are about the same as that crash actually
being deliberate from either side, which is
to say, low. But conspiracy theories are fun. :-)
All flames from my prior mail, please direct to
dogbert(a)mindless.com instead of the list.
Sorry for posting whilst aggravated at the
sheer number of accidents that seem to be
happening lately.
So this discussion isn't totally off-topic,
does anyone have
any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
Find a cheap Chinese-made replacement keyboard.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
11:29 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
Hehe, brilliant reply.
I was hoping to do something more home-made
and customized to have the same layout.
The odds of getting that in a premade keyboard
are about the same as that crash actually
being deliberate from either side, which is
to say, low. But conspiracy theories are fun. :-)
Ok, so all kidding aside, your best bet is to probably find a batch of
surplus KIM-1 keyboards (this is not as far-fetched as you may
think...certainly less far-fetched than the idea of Jeffrey staying on
topic ;)
The next equally impossible suggestion is to find another KIM-1 that is
mostly junk and use it for parts.
I'll bet that the KIM-1 keypad was the same type that was used in one of
Commodore's pocket calculators. But even THOSE are pretty rare.
I guess you're SOL. Is it possible to unsolder the keypad and disassemble
it to clean the contacts?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
So this discussion isn't totally off-topic, does
anyone have
any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
Find a cheap Chinese-made replacement keyboard. 
1:12 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
[[[ Editor's Note - original poster not identified ]]]
> > > So this discussion isn't totally
off-topic, does anyone have
> > > any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
[ snip ]
I'll bet that the KIM-1 keypad was the same type
that was used in one of
Commodore's pocket calculators. But even THOSE are pretty rare.
I guess you're SOL. Is it possible to unsolder the keypad and disassemble
it to clean the contacts?
I hope he's not [1]... I happen to have a Commie pocket calculator in my
basement - dunno if it's what you're looking for (it's *duuuuuusty!* and I
don't think it works well) but I can put digital pix on the 'net in the
next couple days if that'd help...
Shipping or small trade would be all I ask...
[1] I'm hoping that the original poster isn't SOL, that is...
HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
4:23 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Here's an accurate drawing of the whole board, including the keypad:
http://www.ping.be/kim-1__6502/6502/usrman.html#B
It isn't simply soldered to the board -- it's a "stand-alone" unit,
and some of the legends like "PC" and "GO" would probably not
be found on your garden-variety pocket calculator.
Roger Merchberger wrote:
Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned
these words:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
[[[ Editor's Note - original poster not identified ]]]
> > > So this discussion isn't
totally off-topic, does anyone have
> > > any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
[ snip ]
I'll bet that the KIM-1 keypad was the same
type that was used in one of
Commodore's pocket calculators. But even THOSE are pretty rare.
I guess you're SOL. Is it possible to unsolder the keypad and disassemble
it to clean the contacts?
I hope he's not [1]... I happen to have a Commie pocket calculator in my
basement - dunno if it's what you're looking for (it's *duuuuuusty!* and I
don't think it works well) but I can put digital pix on the 'net in the
next couple days if that'd help...
Shipping or small trade would be all I ask...
[1] I'm hoping that the original poster isn't SOL, that is...
HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
3:34 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
Here's an accurate drawing of the whole board,
including the keypad:
http://www.ping.be/kim-1__6502/6502/usrman.html#B
It isn't simply soldered to the board -- it's a "stand-alone" unit,
and some of the legends like "PC" and "GO" would probably not
be found on your garden-variety pocket calculator.
Sure, both those are just labels. The actual mechanism is still just a
pocket calculator keypad (I think).
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:55 p.m.
New subject: VCF 4.0 Pics
Stumbled by this Omaha-based site with good assortment
of VCF 4.0 pics. Don't recall seeing it mentioned here
before. Anyone know who took these? I don't recognize
any of the names associated with "Omahug". "Dave
Miller" seems like the most likely candidate though.
http://www.omahug.org/vcf40/
-W
5:27 p.m.
New subject: VCF 4.0 Pics
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote:
Stumbled by this Omaha-based site with good
assortment
of VCF 4.0 pics. Don't recall seeing it mentioned here
before. Anyone know who took these? I don't recognize
any of the names associated with "Omahug". "Dave
Miller" seems like the most likely candidate though.
http://www.omahug.org/vcf40/
Interesting...they have a picture of me (in the middle of some odd facial
contortion :) holding up the Apple 1 that was auctioned off with the
caption "First Prize for Best of Show" :)
A nice set of pictures though.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10 Apr
10 Apr
4:18 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Though I haven't studied it in detail, I did peek at the manual that was posted.
It seems that it would be straightforward to "ohm-out" the keypad from the edge
connector, to which the rows and columns are connected, just to ensure that the
connectino integrity of the board is not what's causing the problems. If the
connections between both the port LSI and the edge connector and the key matrix
are good and the keypad really is the problem, the edge connector certainly
offers a good workaround. There are key switches that have removable tops, and,
hence, to which labels can be attached. I have some of these on keyboards, but,
for now, that's where they're staying. With a little rubber cement, today's
high-resolution printers, and a bit of clear nail polish, one ought to be able
to make a useable label for a keytop.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
Here's an accurate drawing of the whole
board, including the keypad:
http://www.ping.be/kim-1__6502/6502/usrman.html#B
It isn't simply soldered to the board -- it's a "stand-alone" unit,
and some of the legends like "PC" and "GO" would probably not
be found on your garden-variety pocket calculator.
Sure, both those are just labels. The actual mechanism is still just a
pocket calculator keypad (I think).
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
4:04 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the keypad or the circuit that's
malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch(a)30below.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:12 PM
Subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned
these words:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
[[[ Editor's Note - original poster not identified ]]]
> > > So this discussion isn't
totally off-topic, does anyone have
> > > any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
[ snip ]
I'll bet that the KIM-1 keypad was the same
type that was used in one of
Commodore's pocket calculators. But even THOSE are pretty rare.
I guess you're SOL. Is it possible to unsolder the keypad and disassemble
it to clean the contacts?
I hope he's not [1]... I happen to have a Commie pocket calculator in my
basement - dunno if it's what you're looking for (it's *duuuuuusty!* and I
don't think it works well) but I can put digital pix on the 'net in the
next couple days if that'd help...
Shipping or small trade would be all I ask...
[1] I'm hoping that the original poster isn't SOL, that is...
HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
8:21 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
--- Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the
keypad or the circuit that's
malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
Looking at the schematic, it appears to be a simple matrix. Short a particular
X and Y line for the questionable key. If it "strikes", it's the keypad.
If it still flakes out, it could be a component or trace.
-ethan
=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
The original webpage address is still going away. The
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
9:07 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Not only is it a matrix, but it appears that the matrix scan connections are
available at the expansion connector. It should be quite straightforward to
deterine whether there's a faulty/inermittent connection and to isolate it.
It's just a matter of the associated tedium. That was why I suggested that the
on-board keypad could be replaced with an off-board one connected in a similar
fashion to the applicaton connector. That will "buy time" to find a suitable
replacement, and it will provide a replacement to use in the meantime, also
allowing the owner to regain confidence in the remaining functions on the board.
Moreover, it allows for the possiblility that there's a problem with the board
itself, i.e. intermittent trace, etc. If the external keypad connected to the
expansion connector doesn't work consistently either, it suggests there's a
problem with the board itself. Likewise, if the problem presently on the board
doesn't go away when wires are soldered in parallel with the existing
matrix-scanner device connections, presumably a PIA or VIA, then it's likely
that the device itself may have been damaged, though I have a bit of trouble
imagining a circumstance that it would become intermittent if its solder
connections are sound.
What's most likely, however, is that the connections or traces have been damaged
over years of pressing on the keypad and thereby flexing the board. The simple
way to get around that is to solder on the fewer than two-dozen wires used to
hook up the keypad and expansion connector, and proceed from there.
Ideally, one would generate a test routine for the KIM that would echo via a
parallel port, say, the value associated with the scan of the keypad. This
would be monitored by an external PC. That same PC would drive a matrix of SPST
relays wired in the same matrix as the keypad and attached, in one instance to
the physical switch connections on the underside of the KIM-1's keypad, and in
another at the expansion connector.
After running it over a long time, e.g. a day or weekend, and logging, in the
PC, the time and date of each failure, one could then proceed to perturb the
circuit board, i.e. push on the keypad to see if it causes the externally
generated switch closures to be misread or missed entirely. If the board works
perfectly when stimulated externally over a long period of time, and if it
doesn't fail when perturbed, it's likely one or more of the switches is worn
out. That's when a different keypad becomes attractive. The KIM-1 Keypad was
never a thing of beauty or of any technical appeal. for purposes of preserving
the device, I'd say it's best to look for an exact replacement, in whatever form
it has to be obtained, and use an external keypad attached to the expansion
connector in order to retain use of the KIM-1.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
--- Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
particular
It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the
keypad or the circuit that's
malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
Looking at the schematic, it appears to be a simple matrix. Short a X and Y line for the questionable key. If it
"strikes", it's the keypad.
If it still flakes out, it could be a component or trace.
-ethan
=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
The original webpage address is still going away. The
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
7:27 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
Not only is it a matrix, but it appears that the
matrix scan connections
are
available at the expansion connector.
They are. I've tested the "broken" keys this way,
and they're all functional. (*Whew!*) :-)
Because the KIM uses a pair of 6530s, which are
nigh impossible to find anywhere at any price,
and there are two different flavors of them out
there that are not interchangable, this is good news.
In fact, 'till I read your message
the thought that it might not be the keypad had never
(*SHUDDER*) even entered my mind.
I could see mounting the whole KIM-1 unit in a box
with a lucite or red-filter cut-out for the 7-segment
display and a keypad near-flush with the top above
the "real" keypad. That would have the advantage of
being a place to put the filtered power source and
protect the unit from dust and further wear and tear
until/if ever a replacement keypad is found.
But still I would like a "nice looking"
keypad, or at least "not amateurish".
So does anyone know where one might find
a "take a bunch of keycaps and fit into a plastic
grid to make your own keypad array" sort of kit?
Membrane vs. standard, 5x4, 4x6, whatever,
as long as you can manually wire them into
the required 3x7 array?
:)
-- Ross
It should be quite straightforward to
deterine whether there's a faulty/inermittent connection and to isolate
it.
It's just a matter of the associated tedium. That
was why I suggested
that the
on-board keypad could be replaced with an off-board
one connected in a
similar
fashion to the applicaton connector. That will
"buy time" to find a
suitable
replacement, and it will provide a replacement to use
in the meantime,
also
allowing the owner to regain confidence in the
remaining functions on the
board.
Moreover, it allows for the possiblility that
there's a problem with the
board
itself, i.e. intermittent trace, etc. If the external
keypad connected to
the
expansion connector doesn't work consistently
either, it suggests there's
a
problem with the board itself. Likewise, if the
problem presently on the
board
doesn't go away when wires are soldered in
parallel with the existing
matrix-scanner device connections, presumably a PIA or VIA, then it's
likely
that the device itself may have been damaged, though I
have a bit of
trouble
imagining a circumstance that it would become
intermittent if its solder
connections are sound.
What's most likely, however, is that the connections or traces have been
damaged
over years of pressing on the keypad and thereby
flexing the board. The
simple
way to get around that is to solder on the fewer than
two-dozen wires used
to
hook up the keypad and expansion connector, and
proceed from there.
Ideally, one would generate a test routine for the KIM that would echo via
a
parallel port, say, the value associated with the scan
of the keypad.
This
would be monitored by an external PC. That same PC
would drive a matrix
of SPST
relays wired in the same matrix as the keypad and
attached, in one
instance to
the physical switch connections on the underside of
the KIM-1's keypad,
and in
another at the expansion connector.
After running it over a long time, e.g. a day or weekend, and logging, in
the
PC, the time and date of each failure, one could then
proceed to perturb
the
circuit board, i.e. push on the keypad to see if it
causes the externally
generated switch closures to be misread or missed entirely. If the board
works
perfectly when stimulated externally over a long
period of time, and if it
doesn't fail when perturbed, it's likely one or more of the switches is
worn
out. That's when a different keypad becomes
attractive. The KIM-1 Keypad
was
never a thing of beauty or of any technical appeal.
for purposes of
preserving
the device, I'd say it's best to look for an
exact replacement, in
whatever form
it has to be obtained, and use an external keypad
attached to the
expansion
connector in order to retain use of the KIM-1.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
keypad.
--- Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
particular
> X and Y line for the questionable key. If it "strikes", it's the
It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the
keypad or the circuit that's
malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
Looking at the schematic, it appears to be a simple matrix. Short a If it still
flakes out, it could be a component or trace.
-ethan
=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
The original webpage address is still going away. The
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
7:12 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
But still I would like a "nice looking"
keypad, or at least "not amateurish".
So does anyone know where one might find
a "take a bunch of keycaps and fit into a plastic
grid to make your own keypad array" sort of kit?
Maybe you can find an old calculator with a suitable keypad and
cannibalize it? Or perhaps some old PC numeric keypad?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
11 Apr
11 Apr
6:41 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Yes ... cannibalizing a PC keyboard might be a solution, provided you can come
up with a way to modify the keycap legends. MicroSwitch once made keyboard
switches that had an undersized keycap with a clear plastic cover that was
"normal" sized. You could put a paper legend underneath the clear cover,
obviously, and thereby avoid having to replace it all the time, not that
replacing it would be a big chore.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
But still I would like a "nice
looking"
keypad, or at least "not amateurish".
So does anyone know where one might find
a "take a bunch of keycaps and fit into a plastic
grid to make your own keypad array" sort of kit?
Maybe you can find an old calculator with a suitable keypad and
cannibalize it? Or perhaps some old PC numeric keypad?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
13 Apr
13 Apr
1:17 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
Yes ... cannibalizing a PC keyboard might be a
solution, provided you can
come
up with a way to modify the keycap legends.
Or not.
0-9 ==> 0-9 (from top row)
A-F ==> A-F
AD ==> * (from numeric keypad)
DA ==> Insert (from stand-alone pad)
PC ==> P
+ ==> +/= (or + on numeric if not oversize cap)
GO ==> G
ST ==> S
RS ==> R
Of course, you could duplicate the layout exactly.
:)
Thanks for the ideas again. This ought to work relatively
well.
The outboard display is mostly no-go though.
Although the 7-segment digital lines go out to
the application connector, where they can be
re-buffered with a 74HC06 or similar, the lines
to select which LED to light at any particular scan
moment (nor the raw undecoded input selecting them)
do not leave the board. I'd have to solder to something,
whether it was the 6530 or the decoder. For obvious
reasons, if I did solder to it, it would be on the decoder
outputs x 6, since I can get another one of those if they fried. :)
MicroSwitch once made keyboard
switches that had an undersized keycap with a clear plastic cover that was
"normal" sized. You could put a paper legend underneath the clear cover,
obviously, and thereby avoid having to replace it all the time, not that
replacing it would be a big chore.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
>
> > But still I would like a "nice looking"
> > keypad, or at least "not amateurish".
> > So does anyone know where one might find
> > a "take a bunch of keycaps and fit into a plastic
> > grid to make your own keypad array" sort of kit?
>
> Maybe you can find an old calculator with a suitable keypad and
> cannibalize it? Or perhaps some old PC numeric keypad?
>
> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
3:18 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
If you can scrounge the key switches and caps you need from an extra
PC-keyboard, that's great! As for the displays, I'd suggest you either (1) wire
the displays in parallel with what's already there, or (2) fabricate a duplicate
driver circuit, with both the encoders (or segment drivers) and the digit
selects (I haven't yet looked at the schematic to see what's easiest) as well as
the current-limiting resistors. The latter will provide more satisfying
results, methinks. I'd recommend LARGE displays and a convenient keypad layout.
The reason will become obvious as you get older.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
Yes ... cannibalizing a PC keyboard might be a
solution, provided you can
come
up with a way to modify the keycap legends.
Or not.
0-9 ==> 0-9 (from top row)
A-F ==> A-F
AD ==> * (from numeric keypad)
DA ==> Insert (from stand-alone pad)
PC ==> P
+ ==> +/= (or + on numeric if not oversize cap)
GO ==> G
ST ==> S
RS ==> R
Of course, you could duplicate the layout exactly.
:)
Thanks for the ideas again. This ought to work relatively
well.
The outboard display is mostly no-go though.
Although the 7-segment digital lines go out to
the application connector, where they can be
re-buffered with a 74HC06 or similar, the lines
to select which LED to light at any particular scan
moment (nor the raw undecoded input selecting them)
do not leave the board. I'd have to solder to something,
whether it was the 6530 or the decoder. For obvious
reasons, if I did solder to it, it would be on the decoder
outputs x 6, since I can get another one of those if they fried. :)
MicroSwitch once made keyboard
switches that had an undersized keycap with a clear plastic cover that was
"normal" sized. You could put a paper legend underneath the clear cover,
obviously, and thereby avoid having to replace it all the time, not that
replacing it would be a big chore.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
>
> > But still I would like a "nice looking"
> > keypad, or at least "not amateurish".
> > So does anyone know where one might find
> > a "take a bunch of keycaps and fit into a plastic
> > grid to make your own keypad array" sort of kit?
>
> Maybe you can find an old calculator with a suitable keypad and
> cannibalize it? Or perhaps some old PC numeric keypad?
>
> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
11 Apr
11 Apr
4:09 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
"Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com> wrote:
They are. I've tested the "broken" keys this way,
and they're all functional. (*Whew!*) :-)
Because the KIM uses a pair of 6530s, which are
nigh impossible to find anywhere at any price,
Hi
There is a fellow that is working on making a replacement
board for the 6530. These are intended to replace the 6530's
on Gottlieb pinball audio boards. As I understand, it would
use a 6532, EPROM and a little glue logic. One does need
a copy of the original data from the ROM on the 6530. I
realize this doesn't meet the purest idea of restoring
but unless someone finds a stock of these in some warehouse
and recognizes there value, it may be the only way to
bring these KIM's back to life.
Dwight
10 Apr
10 Apr
7:17 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
--- Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
particular
It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the
keypad or the circuit that's
malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
Looking at the schematic, it appears to be a simple matrix. Short a X and Y line for the questionable key. If it
"strikes", it's the keypad.
If it still flakes out, it could be a component or trace.
Right. It's a 3 x 7 array with 2 keys wired to a 556 for ST (step) and
RS (reset).
I've already tested the broken keys via the edge connector, and they're
working fine. Not that there was too much doubt, as the buttons
involved are either caved in or "feel like they're not connecting
with anything". So a 3x7 + 2 switch setup should do the trick,
but what would look good.
-ethan
=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
The original webpage address is still going away. The
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
11 Apr
11 Apr
6:09 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Look "good" ... ??? ... Depends on your preferences, I guess.
A big part of the question of HOW to go about fixing this is to answer the
question of whether your goal is to restore the KIM-1 to its original condition
for historical authenticity or whether you'd just as soon have something that
works well instead. If the former is your goal, then you've a lot of hunting to
do, but may eventually find out how to modify some other product to fit the
application. On the other hand, there are lots of available keypads, or, if you
prefer, lots of available individual keyswitches with removable/clear-capped
tops, that you can build a really decent and servicable keypad that you can
attach to the auxilliary connector in order to substitute it for the original
without having first to remove the existing keypad. It seems to me that they
should work quite well in parallel.
I don't know that Commodore actually fabricated the keypads themselves, and, in
fact, rather doubt it, so it's likely someone, somewhere, will have used a
similar keypad, or, at least, similar switches, so that will provide you with
amusement at swapmeets and junk sales. Moreover, if you haven't yet looked at
third-party switch catalogs, I'd certainly recommend that so you can explore
replacing the keypad with a possibly more durable and/or convenient, yet
cosmetically similar keypad.
This will require some serious head-scratching.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
--- Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
particular
It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the
keypad or the circuit that's
malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
Looking at the schematic, it appears to be a simple matrix. Short a X and Y line for the questionable key. If it
"strikes", it's the keypad.
If it still flakes out, it could be a component or trace.
Right. It's a 3 x 7 array with 2 keys wired to a 556 for ST (step) and
RS (reset).
I've already tested the broken keys via the edge connector, and they're
working fine. Not that there was too much doubt, as the buttons
involved are either caved in or "feel like they're not connecting
with anything". So a 3x7 + 2 switch setup should do the trick,
but what would look good.
-ethan
=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
The original webpage address is still going away. The
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
2:31 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Look "good" ... ??? ... Depends on your
preferences, I guess.
A big part of the question of HOW to go about fixing this is to answer the
question of whether your goal is to restore the KIM-1 to its original condition
for historical authenticity or whether you'd just as soon have something that
works well instead.
Operational is the main thing, but I'd be thrilled to restore it if the opportunity
came up.
My main interest in the KIM and other really simple machines is as a
hands-on demo of what being a computerist was like in the early days
of microcomputers, before the keyboard, box, and monitor
paradigm took hold. Extra points for toggle switches too. :)
I've seen interest in the thing from visitors who are
into computers, and so far all were less "what a quaint but completely
prehistoric piece of junk" than "wow, I can't believe a machine with
1/1000th the CPU speed and 1/64,000th the memory can play
Hunt the Wumpus and other games and they're even a little fun." :)
It's a tribute to doing an amazing amount with what by modern standards
seems preposterously little, and I think preserving this realization is part
of what being "into" classic computers can be about.
If the former is your goal, then you've a lot of
hunting to
do, but may eventually find out how to modify some other product to fit the
application. On the other hand, there are lots of available keypads, or, if you
prefer, lots of available individual keyswitches with removable/clear-capped
tops, that you can build a really decent and servicable keypad that you can
attach to the auxilliary connector in order to substitute it for the original
without having first to remove the existing keypad. It seems to me that they
should work quite well in parallel.
Okay. I try the regular electronics outlets. I'll try specifically keyboard
manufacturers (ALPs, Cherry, etc. I guess) and see what I can dig up.
I don't know that Commodore actually fabricated the keypads themselves, and, in
fact, rather doubt it, so it's likely someone, somewhere, will have used a
similar keypad, or, at least, similar switches, so that will provide you with
amusement at swapmeets and junk sales. Moreover, if you haven't yet looked at
third-party switch catalogs, I'd certainly recommend that so you can explore
replacing the keypad with a possibly more durable and/or convenient, yet
cosmetically similar keypad.
This will require some serious head-scratching.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
>
>
> >
> > --- Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
> > > It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the keypad or the circuit
that's
> > > malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
> >
> > Looking at the schematic, it appears to be a simple matrix. Short a
> particular
> > X and Y line for the questionable key. If it "strikes", it's the
keypad.
> > If it still flakes out, it could be a component or trace.
> >
>
> Right. It's a 3 x 7 array with 2 keys wired to a 556 for ST (step) and
> RS (reset).
>
> I've already tested the broken keys via the edge connector, and they're
> working fine. Not that there was too much doubt, as the buttons
> involved are either caved in or "feel like they're not connecting
> with anything". So a 3x7 + 2 switch setup should do the trick,
> but what would look good.
>
> > -ethan
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
> > vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
> >
> > The original webpage address is still going away. The
> > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
> >
> > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
>
>
6:12 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
As far as looking for key switches, for functionality, I rather liked Sellam's
suggestion implying that an old PC Keyboard (not a rarity) might provide
sufficient switches. Moreover, with a good software package and a hi-res
printer, you could make key legends that you can rubber-cement to the keycaps
and paint over with clear laquer. If you don't mind that they're less durable,
you can even use the (clear vinyl, not "magic") scotch tape to keep from
rubbing
off the legends. The caps come off the keytops, and if you are careful you can
do this so it looks good and works very well.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
opportunity
in
Richard Erlacher wrote:
> Look "good" ... ??? ... Depends on your preferences, I guess.
>
> A big part of the question of HOW to go about fixing this is to answer the
> question of whether your goal is to restore the KIM-1 to its original
condition
> for historical authenticity or whether you'd
just as soon have something
that
works well
instead.
Operational is the main thing, but I'd be thrilled to restore it if the
came up.
My main interest in the KIM and other really simple machines is as a
hands-on demo of what being a computerist was like in the early days
of microcomputers, before the keyboard, box, and monitor
paradigm took hold. Extra points for toggle switches too. :)
I've seen interest in the thing from visitors who are
into computers, and so far all were less "what a quaint but completely
prehistoric piece of junk" than "wow, I can't believe a machine with
1/1000th the CPU speed and 1/64,000th the memory can play
Hunt the Wumpus and other games and they're even a little fun." :)
It's a tribute to doing an amazing amount with what by modern standards
seems preposterously little, and I think preserving this realization is part
of what being "into" classic computers can be about.
> If the former is your goal, then you've a lot of hunting to
> do, but may eventually find out how to modify some other product to fit the
> application. On the other hand, there are lots of available keypads, or, if
you
> prefer, lots of available individual keyswitches
with removable/clear-capped
> tops, that you can build a really decent and servicable keypad that you can
> attach to the auxilliary connector in order to substitute it for the
original
> without having first to remove the existing
keypad. It seems to me that
they
should work
quite well in parallel.
Okay. I try the regular electronics outlets. I'll try specifically keyboard
manufacturers (ALPs, Cherry, etc. I guess) and see what I can dig up.
>
>
> I don't know that Commodore actually fabricated the keypads themselves, and,
> fact, rather doubt it, so it's likely
someone, somewhere, will have used a
> similar keypad, or, at least, similar switches, so that will provide you
with
> amusement at swapmeets and junk sales. Moreover,
if you haven't yet looked
at
> third-party switch catalogs, I'd certainly
recommend that so you can explore
> replacing the keypad with a possibly more durable and/or convenient, yet
> cosmetically similar keypad.
>
> This will require some serious head-scratching.
>
> Dick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:17 AM
> Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --- Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
> > > > It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the keypad or the
circuit that's
> > > > malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
> > >
> > > Looking at the schematic, it appears to be a simple matrix. Short a
> > particular
> > > X and Y line for the questionable key. If it "strikes",
it's the
keypad.
> > If
it still flakes out, it could be a component or trace.
> >
>
> Right. It's a 3 x 7 array with 2 keys wired to a 556 for ST (step) and
> RS (reset).
>
> I've already tested the broken keys via the edge connector, and they're
> working fine. Not that there was too much doubt, as the buttons
> involved are either caved in or "feel like they're not connecting
> with anything". So a 3x7 + 2 switch setup should do the trick,
> but what would look good.
>
> > -ethan
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
> > vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
> >
> > The original webpage address is still going away. The
> > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
> >
> > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
>
>
13 Apr
13 Apr
1:03 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
something
that
and
As far as looking for key switches, for functionality,
I rather liked
Sellam's
suggestion implying that an old PC Keyboard (not a
rarity) might provide
sufficient switches.
That's a great idea. I have a few dead ones in
the boneyard. Might as well tear into one and see
if it can be salvaged.
I'm going to have to learn to desolder I guess. :)
Don't know how I got this far in electronics hobby
building and never had to do any serious parts
removal.
Moreover, with a good software package and a hi-res
printer, you could make key legends that you can
rubber-cement to the
keycaps
and paint over with clear laquer. If you don't
mind that they're less
durable,
you can even use the (clear vinyl, not
"magic") scotch tape to keep from
rubbing
off the legends. The caps come off the keytops, and
if you are careful
you can
do this so it looks good and works very well.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
>
>
> Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> > Look "good" ... ??? ... Depends on your preferences, I guess.
> >
> > A big part of the question of HOW to go about fixing this is to answer
the
> question
of whether your goal is to restore the KIM-1 to its original
condition
> > for historical authenticity or whether you'd just as soon have
that
opportunity
> came up.
>
> My main interest in the KIM and other really simple machines is as a
> hands-on demo of what being a computerist was like in the early days
> of microcomputers, before the keyboard, box, and monitor
> paradigm took hold. Extra points for toggle switches too. :)
>
> I've seen interest in the thing from visitors who are
> into computers, and so far all were less "what a quaint but completely
> prehistoric piece of junk" than "wow, I can't believe a machine with
> 1/1000th the CPU speed and 1/64,000th the memory can play
> Hunt the Wumpus and other games and they're even a little fun." :)
> It's a tribute to doing an amazing amount with what by modern standards
> seems preposterously little, and I think preserving this realization is
part
works
well instead.
Operational is the main thing, but I'd be thrilled to restore it if the > of what being "into" classic computers
can be about.
>
>
>
> > If the former is your goal, then you've a lot of hunting to
> > do, but may eventually find out how to modify some other product to
fit
the
> > application. On the other hand, there are
lots of available keypads,
or, if
you
> > prefer, lots of available individual keyswitches with
removable/clear-capped
> > tops, that you can build a really decent and
servicable keypad that
you can
> attach to
the auxilliary connector in order to substitute it for the
original
> > without having first to remove the existing keypad. It seems to me they
> > should work quite well in parallel.
>
> Okay. I try the regular electronics outlets. I'll try specifically
keyboard
> manufacturers (ALPs, Cherry, etc. I guess) and
see what I can dig up.
>
> >
> >
> > I don't know that Commodore actually fabricated the keypads
themselves, and,
in
> > fact, rather doubt it, so it's likely someone, somewhere, will have
used a
> > similar keypad, or, at least, similar
switches, so that will provide
you
with
> > amusement at swapmeets and junk sales. Moreover, if you haven't yet
looked
at
> > third-party switch catalogs, I'd certainly recommend that so you can
explore
> > replacing the keypad with a possibly more
durable and/or convenient,
yet
> > cosmetically similar keypad.
> >
> > This will require some serious head-scratching.
> >
> > Dick
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
> > > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
> > > > > It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the keypad or the
circuit
that's
> > > > > malfunctioning. How did you
determine it's the keypad itself?
> > > >
> > > > Looking at the schematic, it appears to be a simple matrix. Short
a
> >
particular
> > > X and Y line for the questionable key. If it "strikes",
it's the
keypad.
> > > > If it still flakes out, it could be a component or trace.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Right. It's a 3 x 7 array with 2 keys wired to a 556 for ST (step)
> > > RS (reset).
> > >
> > > I've already tested the broken keys via the edge connector, and
they're
> working fine. Not that there was too much doubt,
as the buttons
> involved are either caved in or "feel like they're not connecting
> with anything". So a 3x7 + 2 switch setup should do the trick,
> but what would look good.
>
> > -ethan
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
> > vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
> >
> > The original webpage address is still going away. The
> > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
> >
> > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
>
>
6 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
If you want good key action, check out the old XT and AT/ PS/2 REAL IBM
keyboards for the keyswitches :)
At 06:03 AM 4/13/01 -0700, you wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
something
that
and
As far as looking for key switches, for
functionality, I rather liked
Sellam's
suggestion implying that an old PC Keyboard (not
a rarity) might provide
sufficient switches.
That's a great idea. I have a few dead ones in
the boneyard. Might as well tear into one and see
if it can be salvaged.
I'm going to have to learn to desolder I guess. :)
Don't know how I got this far in electronics hobby
building and never had to do any serious parts
removal.
Moreover, with a good software package and a hi-res
printer, you could make key legends that you can
rubber-cement to the
keycaps
and paint over with clear laquer. If you
don't mind that they're less
durable,
you can even use the (clear vinyl, not
"magic") scotch tape to keep from
rubbing
off the legends. The caps come off the keytops,
and if you are careful
you can
do this so it looks good and works very well.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
>
>
> Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> > Look "good" ... ??? ... Depends on your preferences, I guess.
> >
> > A big part of the question of HOW to go about fixing this is to answer
the
>
question of whether your goal is to restore the KIM-1 to its original
condition
> > for historical authenticity or whether you'd just as soon have
that
opportunity
> came up.
>
> My main interest in the KIM and other really simple machines is as a
> hands-on demo of what being a computerist was like in the early days
> of microcomputers, before the keyboard, box, and monitor
> paradigm took hold. Extra points for toggle switches too. :)
>
> I've seen interest in the thing from visitors who are
> into computers, and so far all were less "what a quaint but completely
> prehistoric piece of junk" than "wow, I can't believe a machine with
> 1/1000th the CPU speed and 1/64,000th the memory can play
> Hunt the Wumpus and other games and they're even a little fun." :)
> It's a tribute to doing an amazing amount with what by modern standards
> seems preposterously little, and I think preserving this realization is
part
works
well instead.
Operational is the main thing, but I'd be thrilled to restore it if the > of what being "into" classic
computers can be about.
>
>
>
> > If the former is your goal, then you've a lot of hunting to
> > do, but may eventually find out how to modify some other product to
fit
the
> > application. On the other hand, there
are lots of available keypads,
or, if
you
> > prefer, lots of available individual keyswitches with
removable/clear-capped
> > tops, that you can build a really
decent and servicable keypad that
you can
>
attach to the auxilliary connector in order to substitute it for the
original
> > without having first to remove the existing keypad. It seems to me they
> > should work quite well in parallel.
>
> Okay. I try the regular electronics outlets. I'll try specifically
keyboard
> manufacturers (ALPs, Cherry, etc. I guess)
and see what I can dig up.
>
> >
> >
> > I don't know that Commodore actually fabricated the keypads
themselves, and,
in
> > fact, rather doubt it, so it's likely someone, somewhere, will have
used a
> > similar keypad, or, at least, similar
switches, so that will provide
you
with
> > amusement at swapmeets and junk sales. Moreover, if you haven't yet
looked
at
> > third-party switch catalogs, I'd certainly recommend that so you can
explore
> > replacing the keypad with a possibly
more durable and/or convenient,
yet
> > cosmetically similar keypad.
> >
> > This will require some serious head-scratching.
> >
> > Dick
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
> > > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
> > > > > It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the keypad or the
circuit
that's
> > > > > malfunctioning. How did
you determine it's the keypad itself?
> > > >
> > > > Looking at the schematic, it appears to be a simple matrix. Short
a
> >
particular
> > > X and Y line for the questionable key. If it "strikes",
it's the
keypad.
> > > > If it still flakes out, it could be a component or trace.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Right. It's a 3 x 7 array with 2 keys wired to a 556 for ST (step)
> > > RS (reset).
> > >
> > > I've already tested the broken keys via the edge connector, and
they're
> > > > working fine. Not that there was too much doubt, as the buttons
> > > > involved are either caved in or "feel like they're not
connecting
> > > > with anything". So a 3x7 + 2 switch setup should do the trick,
> > > > but what would look good.
> > > >
> > > > > -ethan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =====
> > > > > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
> > > > > vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
> > > > >
> > > > > The original webpage address is still going away. The
> > > > > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
> > > > >
> > > > > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> > > > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> 
2:14 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:00:48 -0700
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
From: Geoff Reed <geoffr(a)zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
Reply-to: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
If you want good key action, check out the old XT and
AT/ PS/2 REAL IBM
keyboards for the keyswitches :)
Click, click, clack...provided that can stand that noise.
Very reliable till someone spills in something wet, you're SOL.
Check out hall-effect keyswitches such as found on toshiba T1960
series. I had both notebooks apart. Cool!
Cheers,
Wizard
PS: snip that long string of replies pls, mind those people on pay
by minute modem connection.
14 Apr
14 Apr
12:52 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
If you want
good key action, check out the old XT and AT/ PS/2 REAL IBM
keyboards for the keyswitches :)
Click, click, clack...provided that can stand that noise.
6:06 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
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7:20 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
This is apparently not universally true, as I have one now partially
disassembled/cannibalized keyboard (Microswitch) that has individially removable
switches. Once they're removed and used elsewhere, it doesn't matter what sort
of switches are used. With switches of which the underlying PCB is a component,
you're stuck with using the PCB and associated switch layout, which is a bummer!
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
If you want good key action, check out the old XT and AT/ PS/2 REAL IBM
keyboards for the keyswitches :)
Bad idea -- AFAIK none of the IBM keyboards have individual keyswitches.
The PC/XT/Portable keyboards have a strange capacitive mechanism --
pressing a key moves a plastic flap onto the circuit board that increases
the capacitance between 2 traces. The AT and PS/2 keyboards actually
have membrane-type contacts, although with a similar plastic flap
mechanism to operate them.
In either case it's almost impossible to split the keyboard up into
individual keys.
FWIW, I have seen keyboard switches in the electronics catalogues over
here relatively recently. Only problem is, they are _very_ expensive
compared to the price of a PC keyboard. But you can get them.
-tony
8:13 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
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9:54 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Well, clearly, one has to know what sort of switches are in place before
deciding to use a given keyboard. Being Microswitch, it's NOT genuine IBM. If
the IBM real-McCoys are unuseable there's no point in attempting to use one of
them. Hall-effect switches are probably too expensive to appear in a cheapie as
one would expect to see on a PC clone. What's called for in the KIM-1 case is
clearly a switch, however. There's some question as to whether the relatively
high-impedance contact closure provided by the type of switch you previously
described would even serve in the KIM-1 case, as its scanning logic is "tuned"
for simple switches. A keypad scanner circuit such as the 74C923 will "see" a
50K-ohm impedance as a closure, while I doubt that the KIM-1 circuit will see 5k
as a closure.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
>
> This is apparently not universally true, as I have one now partially
> disassembled/cannibalized keyboard (Microswitch) that has individially
removable
Is this a _genuine_ IBM keyboard? My comments refered to true IBM
keyboards only -- not clones. I've seen plenty of clone keyboards with
individual switches.
> switches. Once they're removed and used elsewhere, it doesn't matter what
sort
> of switches are used. With switches of which the
underlying PCB is a
component,
It does if the external 'interface' to the switch is anything other than
a pair of contacts that are connected together when the switch is
pressed. I've seen hall-effect switches that have 4 pins -- Vcc, Ground
and 2 open-collector outputs. You could wire the outputs to row and
column lines, with a resistor pullup on each line, and when you pressed a
key the appropriate row and column line were asserted.
Most of the time, keyboard switches are just that -- switches. Sometimes
they are some kind of electronic sensor.
-tony
10:18 a.m.
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4:49 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
I've seen attempts by others to repair keypads of the KIM-1 sort. It's doomed
to frustration. They cost MUCH less than $1 US in the quantity in which they
were purchased in '76, and that was >50% shipping and packaging. The KIM-1 was
designed more as a novelty than as a computer, since it was really just a
demo/evaluation kit for their ROM/I/O etc. devices. It was designed to see <
1-2 hr of power-on time. Clearly they didn't need a seriously serviceable
keypad for that.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
If
Well, clearly, one has to know what sort of switches are in place before
Exactly. I can think of a few keyboards that I know to be made up of
individual switches, but all of them are over 10 years old, and hence
should be restored themselves, not stripped.
> deciding to use a given keyboard. Being Microswitch, it's NOT genuine IBM.
> the IBM real-McCoys are unuseable there's no
point in attempting to use one
of
That was my original comment. The true IBM 'clicky' keyboards are not
suitable for this, for all they have a lovely feel (I am using one right
now).
> them. Hall-effect switches are probably too expensive to appear in a
cheapie
as
> one would expect to see on a PC clone.
What's called for in the KIM-1 case
is
Again, agreed, but you might come across them in some (high-end) classic
computers.
> clearly a switch, however. There's some question as to whether the
relatively
We're agreeing on everything. Yes, no point in making life difficult. The
Kim was designed to use a switch, and that's what should be used to make
a new keypad -- especially as suitable switches are available.
Incidentally, has the chap with the Kim tried taking the old keypad
apart. Somethimes they can be mended -- broken contacts resoldered or
replaced, for example.
-tony
11:15 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
I've seen attempts by others to repair keypads of
the KIM-1 sort. It's
doomed
to frustration. They cost MUCH less than $1 US in the
quantity in which
they
were purchased in '76, and that was >50%
shipping and packaging. The
KIM-1 was
designed more as a novelty than as a computer, since
it was really just a
demo/evaluation kit for their ROM/I/O etc. devices. It was designed to
see <
1-2 hr of power-on time. Clearly they didn't need
a seriously serviceable
keypad for that.
I think the outboard keyboard & case idea is excellent, and a fun "hour at a
time"
kind of project to tinker with whenever bored. :) I already took apart one
broken
keyboard in my boneyard -- it was a membrane type. <:-(
As for up-time, this particular KIM-1 has seen many thousands of up-time
hours,
being the platform on which I learned to program computers (even before
BASIC), and that got me hooked.
So there are obvious fond memories of discovery there.
Even hand assembly and calculating relative branches by
hand didn't seem too awful at the time. Just being able to write a program
and make it do something was far too magical to seem tedious. :)
It also spent an awful lot of time playing Microchess, Wumpus,
Lunar Lander, Blackjack, etc. The First Book of KIM and the programmers
reference guide were tattered almost to oblivion. :) And the keyboard was
a hunk of junk, you're right. I seem to remember having trouble with the
"0"-"3" and "+" keys even in the late 70's.
I do agree that the board was principally aimed an engineers and the sort
of person who would play around just enough to decide if this was a family
of chips they can use and try out a few ideas, then go on to design their
own hardware, but there were some indications that MOS expected some
users to expand it significantly; otherwise, why supply expansion connectors
with all
relevant signals and provisions to flexibly alter the on-board decoding
externally,
and why TTY + paper tape capabilities on top of keyboard + cassette if it
was just
to bang a few bits and play long enough to make a mindshare sale? It seems
like
a lot of engineering effort could have been spared if it was intended to be
a fixed,
unexpandable board.
It looks to me more like MOS Technologies expected some of these boards to
end
up as process controllers or to be expanded, e.g. KIM-4, and not just for
evaluation
service. Then hobbyists discovered it and who knows what percentage of
total
KIMs sold ultimately went to hobbyists for home use?
-- Ross
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> >
> > Well, clearly, one has to know what sort of switches are in place
before
>
> Exactly. I can think of a few keyboards that I know to be made up of
> individual switches, but all of them are over 10 years old, and hence
> should be restored themselves, not stripped.
>
> > deciding to use a given keyboard. Being Microswitch, it's NOT genuine
IBM.
If
> > the IBM real-McCoys are unuseable there's no point in attempting to
use one
of
case
That was my original comment. The true IBM 'clicky' keyboards are not
suitable for this, for all they have a lovely feel (I am using one right
now).
> them. Hall-effect switches are probably too expensive to appear in a
cheapie
as
> > one would expect to see on a PC clone. What's called for in the KIM-1
is
The
Again, agreed, but you might come across them in some (high-end) classic
computers.
> clearly a switch, however. There's some question as to whether the
relatively
>
> We're agreeing on everything. Yes, no point in making life difficult. Kim was
designed to use a switch, and that's what should be used to make
a new keypad -- especially as suitable switches are available.
Incidentally, has the chap with the Kim tried taking the old keypad
apart. Somethimes they can be mended -- broken contacts resoldered or
replaced, for example.
-tony
15 Apr
15 Apr
2:43 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
The membrane types are quite a bit cheaper, hence you'll see them most of the
time. When you select a candidate for canibalizing, you look at the underside
of the PCB. If there are two contacts that are soldered through the board,
that's the type you want, since whatever mechanism makes the keyboard work in
that case is removable as a unit.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
I've seen attempts by others to repair
keypads of the KIM-1 sort. It's
doomed
to frustration. They cost MUCH less than $1 US
in the quantity in which
they
were purchased in '76, and that was >50%
shipping and packaging. The
KIM-1 was
designed more as a novelty than as a computer,
since it was really just a
demo/evaluation kit for their ROM/I/O etc. devices. It was designed to
see <
1-2 hr of power-on time. Clearly they didn't
need a seriously serviceable
keypad for that.
I think the outboard keyboard & case idea is excellent, and a fun "hour at a
time"
kind of project to tinker with whenever bored. :) I already took apart one
broken
keyboard in my boneyard -- it was a membrane type. <:-(
As for up-time, this particular KIM-1 has seen many thousands of up-time
hours,
being the platform on which I learned to program computers (even before
BASIC), and that got me hooked.
So there are obvious fond memories of discovery there.
Even hand assembly and calculating relative branches by
hand didn't seem too awful at the time. Just being able to write a program
and make it do something was far too magical to seem tedious. :)
It also spent an awful lot of time playing Microchess, Wumpus,
Lunar Lander, Blackjack, etc. The First Book of KIM and the programmers
reference guide were tattered almost to oblivion. :) And the keyboard was
a hunk of junk, you're right. I seem to remember having trouble with the
"0"-"3" and "+" keys even in the late 70's.
I do agree that the board was principally aimed an engineers and the sort
of person who would play around just enough to decide if this was a family
of chips they can use and try out a few ideas, then go on to design their
own hardware, but there were some indications that MOS expected some
users to expand it significantly; otherwise, why supply expansion connectors
with all
relevant signals and provisions to flexibly alter the on-board decoding
externally,
and why TTY + paper tape capabilities on top of keyboard + cassette if it
was just
to bang a few bits and play long enough to make a mindshare sale? It seems
like
a lot of engineering effort could have been spared if it was intended to be
a fixed,
unexpandable board.
It looks to me more like MOS Technologies expected some of these boards to
end
up as process controllers or to be expanded, e.g. KIM-4, and not just for
evaluation
service. Then hobbyists discovered it and who knows what percentage of
total
KIMs sold ultimately went to hobbyists for home use?
-- Ross
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> >
> > Well, clearly, one has to know what sort of switches are in place
before
>
> Exactly. I can think of a few keyboards that I know to be made up of
> individual switches, but all of them are over 10 years old, and hence
> should be restored themselves, not stripped.
>
> > deciding to use a given keyboard. Being Microswitch, it's NOT genuine
IBM.
If
> > the IBM real-McCoys are unuseable there's no point in attempting to
use one
of
case
That was my original comment. The true IBM 'clicky' keyboards are not
suitable for this, for all they have a lovely feel (I am using one right
now).
> them. Hall-effect switches are probably too expensive to appear in a
cheapie
as
> > one would expect to see on a PC clone. What's called for in the KIM-1
is
The
Again, agreed, but you might come across them in some (high-end) classic
computers.
> clearly a switch, however. There's some question as to whether the
relatively
>
> We're agreeing on everything. Yes, no point in making life difficult. Kim was
designed to use a switch, and that's what should be used to make
a new keypad -- especially as suitable switches are available.
Incidentally, has the chap with the Kim tried taking the old keypad
apart. Somethimes they can be mended -- broken contacts resoldered or
replaced, for example.
-tony
8:11 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
The membrane types are quite a bit cheaper, hence
you'll see them most of
the
time. When you select a candidate for canibalizing,
you look at the
underside
of the PCB. If there are two contacts that are
soldered through the
board,
that's the type you want, since whatever mechanism
makes the keyboard work
in
that case is removable as a unit.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
Or, I may just go this route with a keypad kit, complete
with user labels. This is what I've been looking for.
At least they claim to be good to up to 3 million cycles.
Pity the original keypad wasn't nearly that good.
The Radio Shack lead didn't turn up anything on their
website. If they do have something like this, I'd check that
out too.
-- Ross
-- Ross
http://www.grayhill.com/grayhill.nsf/9f8c4a13a816a6e58625681f0065ecd1/a10513
e0e909811086256846005a8408/$FILE/C-39-43.pdf
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 9:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
>
>
> > I've seen attempts by others to repair keypads of the KIM-1 sort.
It's
> doomed
> > to frustration. They cost MUCH less than $1 US in the quantity in
which
> they
> > were purchased in '76, and that was >50% shipping and packaging. The
> KIM-1 was
> > designed more as a novelty than as a computer, since it was really
just
a
> > demo/evaluation kit for their ROM/I/O etc.
devices. It was designed
to
> see <
> > 1-2 hr of power-on time. Clearly they didn't need a seriously
serviceable
> > keypad for that.
> >
>
> I think the outboard keyboard & case idea is excellent, and a fun "hour
at a
> time"
> kind of project to tinker with whenever bored. :) I already took apart
one
> broken
> keyboard in my boneyard -- it was a membrane type. <:-(
>
> As for up-time, this particular KIM-1 has seen many thousands of up-time
> hours,
> being the platform on which I learned to program computers (even before
> BASIC), and that got me hooked.
> So there are obvious fond memories of discovery there.
> Even hand assembly and calculating relative branches by
> hand didn't seem too awful at the time. Just being able to write a
program
> and make it do something was far too magical to
seem tedious. :)
>
> It also spent an awful lot of time playing Microchess, Wumpus,
> Lunar Lander, Blackjack, etc. The First Book of KIM and the programmers
> reference guide were tattered almost to oblivion. :) And the keyboard
was
> a hunk of junk, you're right. I seem to
remember having trouble with
the
> "0"-"3" and "+"
keys even in the late 70's.
>
> I do agree that the board was principally aimed an engineers and the
sort
> of person who would play around just enough to
decide if this was a
family
> of chips they can use and try out a few ideas,
then go on to design
their
> own hardware, but there were some indications
that MOS expected some
> users to expand it significantly; otherwise, why supply expansion
connectors
> with all
> relevant signals and provisions to flexibly alter the on-board decoding
> externally,
> and why TTY + paper tape capabilities on top of keyboard + cassette if
it
> was just
> to bang a few bits and play long enough to make a mindshare sale? It
seems
> like
> a lot of engineering effort could have been spared if it was intended to
be
> a fixed,
> unexpandable board.
>
> It looks to me more like MOS Technologies expected some of these boards
to
> end
> up as process controllers or to be expanded, e.g. KIM-4, and not just
for
> evaluation
> service. Then hobbyists discovered it and who knows what percentage of
> total
> KIMs sold ultimately went to hobbyists for home use?
>
> -- Ross
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dick
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 4:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > Well, clearly, one has to know what sort of switches are in place
> before
> > >
> > > Exactly. I can think of a few keyboards that I know to be made up of
> > > individual switches, but all of them are over 10 years old, and
hence
> > > should be restored themselves, not
stripped.
> > >
> > > > deciding to use a given keyboard. Being Microswitch, it's NOT
genuine
> IBM.
> > If
> > > > the IBM real-McCoys are unuseable there's no point in attempting
to
> use one
> > of
> > >
> > > That was my original comment. The true IBM 'clicky' keyboards are
not
> > > suitable for this, for all they have a
lovely feel (I am using one
right
> > > now).
> > >
> > > > them. Hall-effect switches are probably too expensive to appear
in a
> > cheapie as
> > > > one would expect to see on a PC clone. What's called for in the
KIM-1
> case
> > is
> > >
> > > Again, agreed, but you might come across them in some (high-end)
classic
> > > computers.
> > >
> > > > clearly a switch, however. There's some question as to whether
the
> > relatively
> > >
> > > We're agreeing on everything. Yes, no point in making life
difficult.
> The
> > > Kim was designed to use a switch, and that's what should be used to
make
> > > a new keypad -- especially as suitable
switches are available.
> > >
> > > Incidentally, has the chap with the Kim tried taking the old keypad
> > > apart. Somethimes they can be mended -- broken contacts resoldered
or
replaced, for
example.
-tony
14 Apr
14 Apr
11:18 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
[snip]
Incidentally, has the chap with the Kim tried taking
the old keypad
apart. Somethimes they can be mended -- broken contacts resoldered or
replaced, for example.
Some of the keys are actually caved in, and others feel like
something major is missing underneath. I suspect it's a
goner, given it has been literally used until it wore out.
-- Ross
-tony
15 Apr
15 Apr
2:55 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Yes, they made quite a number of KIM-4's as well as some of the KIM-2 and KIM-3
boards, of which I have one of each now, if I didn't, in a moment of madness,
toss them while having an "easter-egg" hunt in the basement. I don't
remember
much about the KIM-1, never having owned one myself, but I did build a prototype
DRAM board (32K) for the thing for a friend at one time. I even had a 32K DRAM
board with the DRAM (4027) array on it built up with a wirewrap area on the
remainder of the board. That was when 4116's were still expensive but everybody
was replacing their 4027's with them. It happened that the friend for whom I
built up the memory circuit was the guy who ran the PCB house that made my
prototypes, so he could make up whatever he felt like doing. IIRC, the memory
map was divide in half, with RAM in the bottom and ROM and I/O in the top half.
That allowed for some expansion.
The KIM-3 and KIM-2 boards used 21L02's and were made here in the Denver area by
Monolithic Systems. They clearly bore the MOS-Technology Logo, and had the
on-board regulators that were required for the KIM BUS. The fact they designed
this stuff and had it made up suggests they had other plans for the KIM-1 than
merely a DEMO board. However, the shape of these boards suggests that their
design team was somewhat lacking in grey matter. The bus connectors on the
KIM-2 and KIM-3 boards were centered in their nominally 8" x 10" size, and
would
certainly NOT line up conveniently with the connectors on the KIM-1 for any sort
of well-, or even badly,- thought-out packaging arrangement. I've never looked
at a KIM-4 to see what its configuration suggests. I think all this suggests
that there were oppposing forces at work at Commodore, and you know what they
say about "too many cooks" ...
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 5:18 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
[snip]
Incidentally, has the chap with the Kim tried
taking the old keypad
apart. Somethimes they can be mended -- broken contacts resoldered or
replaced, for example.
Some of the keys are actually caved in, and others feel like
something major is missing underneath. I suspect it's a
goner, given it has been literally used until it wore out.
-- Ross
-tony
6:01 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
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19 May
19 May
11:50 p.m.
New subject: Arcadia Amiga
Is anyone familiar with the 'Arcadia Amiga' arcade machine?
--
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com
Home of the Amiga magazine guide, Complete Amiga prototype/official/clone
list, and more!
20 May
20 May
2:50 a.m.
New subject: Arcadia Amiga
I remember "back in the day" when I had an Amiga I had heard of the machine.
I'd brag to my friends that the Amiga was so powerful that it ran some
arcade games. I think it was just an Amiga 500 with a custom ROM on board.
I searched around and found a little info on it:
http://www.arcadecollecting.com/mametargets/arcadia.html
-John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gareth Knight
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 7:50 AM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Arcadia Amiga
Is anyone familiar with the 'Arcadia Amiga' arcade machine?
--
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com
Home of the Amiga magazine guide, Complete Amiga prototype/official/clone
list, and more!
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
10 Apr
10 Apr
7:31 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the
keypad or the circuit that's
malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
Funny you should ask. I studied the circuit in detail
about two years back, and verified that closing the
right pair of application connector pins caused the
"broken" keys to register. I got busy, put the KIM
away in a box and forgot about it until recently.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch(a)30below.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:12 PM
Subject: Kim / Commie keypads
> Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words:
> >On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
>
> [[[ Editor's Note - original poster not identified ]]]
>
> >> > > So this discussion isn't totally off-topic, does anyone have
> >> > > any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
>
> [ snip ]
>
> >I'll bet that the KIM-1 keypad was the same type that was used in one
of
> >Commodore's pocket calculators. But even
THOSE are pretty rare.
> >
> >I guess you're SOL. Is it possible to unsolder the keypad and
disassemble
> >it to clean the contacts?
>
> I hope he's not [1]... I happen to have a Commie pocket calculator in my
> basement - dunno if it's what you're looking for (it's *duuuuuusty!* and
I
don't
think it works well) but I can put digital pix on the 'net in the
next couple days if that'd help...
Shipping or small trade would be all I ask...
[1] I'm hoping that the original poster isn't SOL, that is...
HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
11 Apr
11 Apr
6:23 a.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
I'd recommend that you not only replace the keypad with something more durable,
but that you buffer and parallel the LED display such that you can use some
significantly larger displays. That will provide you with flexibility in
packaging that the use of the existing display won't allow. It's lotsa work,
but that's what the hobby is about, isn't it?
The way to handle this might be to buy a scrap of aluminum sheet stock that's
about large enough to build a box that will hold the KIM-1, perhaps together
with a PSU, and, if you've any desire to do that, together with whatever
expansion hardware you want. Make sure it's sturdy enough for your purposes.
Obtain a hacksaw, shear, files, etc, and whatever else you think you'll need to
butcher the metal. Radio Shack once sold a really decent nibbler, that's the
easiest tool to afford for making oddly-shaped square-cornered holes for
keypads, displays, connectors, etc. It was a good tool so it's likely no longer
available. I bought two just to be safe.
Purchase or fabricate a keypad, ABSOLUTELY NOT a membrane or otherwise prebuilt
matrix keypad, but rather, one with keyboard-type switches and removable keytops
to which you can see yourself applying some sort of decent-looking legends.
That way you have a maintenance path. It's not hard to hand-wire a set of
switches onto a piece of perf-board in a solid way that can be attached to the
underside of your aluminum top. I've done this sort of thing many times and if
you want "spiritual guidance" with respect to this, I doubt I'm the only one
in
this forum who's got advice for you.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the
keypad or the circuit that's
malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
Funny you should ask. I studied the circuit in detail
about two years back, and verified that closing the
right pair of application connector pins caused the
"broken" keys to register. I got busy, put the KIM
away in a box and forgot about it until recently.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch(a)30below.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:12 PM
Subject: Kim / Commie keypads
> Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words:
> >On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
>
> [[[ Editor's Note - original poster not identified ]]]
>
> >> > > So this discussion isn't totally off-topic, does anyone have
> >> > > any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
>
> [ snip ]
>
> >I'll bet that the KIM-1 keypad was the same type that was used in one
of
> >Commodore's pocket calculators. But
even THOSE are pretty rare.
> >
> >I guess you're SOL. Is it possible to unsolder the keypad and
disassemble
> >it to clean the contacts?
>
> I hope he's not [1]... I happen to have a Commie pocket calculator in my
> basement - dunno if it's what you're looking for (it's *duuuuuusty!* and
I
don't
think it works well) but I can put digital pix on the 'net in the
next couple days if that'd help...
Shipping or small trade would be all I ask...
[1] I'm hoping that the original poster isn't SOL, that is...
HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
2:36 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Richard Erlacher wrote:
I'd recommend that you not only replace the keypad
with something more durable,
but that you buffer and parallel the LED display such that you can use some
significantly larger displays. That will provide you with flexibility in
packaging that the use of the existing display won't allow. It's lotsa work,
but that's what the hobby is about, isn't it?
I gave that some thought. Suppose having BIG displays would be nice.
I don't intend to input much data via the keypad -- I plan to take the best
parts of my 65C02 microcontroller and add it to the KIM so you can use
the PC as a rather fast tape drive. :) Still, it's cool to show people who
are into computers how people hand-assembled their programs and
typed them in, etc. :)
AC in, a filtered DC supply, cassette I/O jacks, an RS232 port, and 32K RAM
and secondary monitor ROM would all fit nicely within a box and
protect the whole thing, so I like that idea very much.
The way to handle this might be to buy a scrap of aluminum sheet stock that's
about large enough to build a box that will hold the KIM-1, perhaps together
with a PSU, and, if you've any desire to do that, together with whatever
expansion hardware you want. Make sure it's sturdy enough for your purposes.
Obtain a hacksaw, shear, files, etc, and whatever else you think you'll need to
butcher the metal. Radio Shack once sold a really decent nibbler, that's the
easiest tool to afford for making oddly-shaped square-cornered holes for
keypads, displays, connectors, etc. It was a good tool so it's likely no longer
available. I bought two just to be safe.
Purchase or fabricate a keypad, ABSOLUTELY NOT a membrane or otherwise prebuilt
matrix keypad, but rather, one with keyboard-type switches and removable keytops
to which you can see yourself applying some sort of decent-looking legends.
That way you have a maintenance path. It's not hard to hand-wire a set of
switches onto a piece of perf-board in a solid way that can be attached to the
underside of your aluminum top. I've done this sort of thing many times and if
you want "spiritual guidance" with respect to this, I doubt I'm the only
one in
this forum who's got advice for you.
It sounds like I could manage this assuming there's a ready supply of individual
keys somewhere out there -- and I figure this must be the case.
Thanks a lot for all the ideas.
-- Ross
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:04 AM
> Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
>
>
> > It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the keypad or the circuit
that's
> > malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
> >
>
> Funny you should ask. I studied the circuit in detail
> about two years back, and verified that closing the
> right pair of application connector pins caused the
> "broken" keys to register. I got busy, put the KIM
> away in a box and forgot about it until recently.
>
> > Dick
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch(a)30below.com>
> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:12 PM
> > Subject: Kim / Commie keypads
> >
> >
> > > Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words:
> > > >On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
> > >
> > > [[[ Editor's Note - original poster not identified ]]]
> > >
> > > >> > > So this discussion isn't totally off-topic, does
anyone have
> > > >> > > any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
> > >
> > > [ snip ]
> > >
> > > >I'll bet that the KIM-1 keypad was the same type that was used in
one
> of
> > > >Commodore's pocket calculators. But even THOSE are pretty rare.
> > > >
> > > >I guess you're SOL. Is it possible to unsolder the keypad and
> disassemble
> > > >it to clean the contacts?
> > >
> > > I hope he's not [1]... I happen to have a Commie pocket calculator in
my
> > > basement - dunno if it's what you're looking for (it's
*duuuuuusty!* and
> I
> > > don't think it works well) but I can put digital pix on the 'net
in the
> > > next couple days if that'd help...
> > >
> > > Shipping or small trade would be all I ask...
> > >
> > > [1] I'm hoping that the original poster isn't SOL, that is...
> > >
> > > HTH,
> > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger
> > > --
> > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
> > > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
> > >
> > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
> > > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
6:18 p.m.
New subject: Kim / Commie keypads
Though I never owned a KIM-1, I once built a memory circuit for the KIM-1 that
lived on a prototype card I once had made and sold for the thing, which, when
combined with an FDC allowed one to run the "APEX" os, but only after disabling
the KIM-1-resident I/O and Firmware. It also required a small character display
(16 lines of 64 characters), and a parallel-interfaced ascii keyboard.
I may still have enough information about that to be of some use. My efforts to
locate various KIM-stuff have been in vain though. I've been looking for a
KIM-2 and a KIM-3 board, which I hope I didn't pitch, for some years now.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
that's
individual
Richard Erlacher wrote:
> I'd recommend that you not only replace the keypad with something more
durable,
> but that you buffer and parallel the LED display
such that you can use some
> significantly larger displays. That will provide you with flexibility in
> packaging that the use of the existing display won't allow. It's lotsa
work,
but that's
what the hobby is about, isn't it?
I gave that some thought. Suppose having BIG displays would be nice.
I don't intend to input much data via the keypad -- I plan to take the best
parts of my 65C02 microcontroller and add it to the KIM so you can use
the PC as a rather fast tape drive. :) Still, it's cool to show people who
are into computers how people hand-assembled their programs and
typed them in, etc. :)
AC in, a filtered DC supply, cassette I/O jacks, an RS232 port, and 32K RAM
and secondary monitor ROM would all fit nicely within a box and
protect the whole thing, so I like that idea very much.
>
>
> The way to handle this might be to buy a scrap of aluminum sheet stock
> about large enough to build a box that will hold
the KIM-1, perhaps together
> with a PSU, and, if you've any desire to do that, together with whatever
> expansion hardware you want. Make sure it's sturdy enough for your
purposes.
> Obtain a hacksaw, shear, files, etc, and whatever
else you think you'll need
to
> butcher the metal. Radio Shack once sold a
really decent nibbler, that's
the
> easiest tool to afford for making oddly-shaped
square-cornered holes for
> keypads, displays, connectors, etc. It was a good tool so it's likely no
longer
> available. I bought two just to be safe.
>
> Purchase or fabricate a keypad, ABSOLUTELY NOT a membrane or otherwise
prebuilt
> matrix keypad, but rather, one with keyboard-type
switches and removable
keytops
> to which you can see yourself applying some sort
of decent-looking legends.
> That way you have a maintenance path. It's not hard to hand-wire a set of
> switches onto a piece of perf-board in a solid way that can be attached to
the
> underside of your aluminum top. I've done
this sort of thing many times and
if
> you want "spiritual guidance" with
respect to this, I doubt I'm the only one
in
this forum
who's got advice for you.
It sounds like I could manage this assuming there's a ready supply of
keys somewhere out there -- and I figure this must be
the case.
Thanks a lot for all the ideas.
-- Ross
>
> Dick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:04 AM
> > Subject: Re: Kim / Commie keypads
> >
> >
> > > It's pretty hard to tell whether it's the keypad or the circuit
that's
> > > malfunctioning. How did you determine it's the keypad itself?
> > >
> >
> > Funny you should ask. I studied the circuit in detail
> > about two years back, and verified that closing the
> > right pair of application connector pins caused the
> > "broken" keys to register. I got busy, put the KIM
> > away in a box and forgot about it until recently.
> >
> > > Dick
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch(a)30below.com>
> > > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:12 PM
> > > Subject: Kim / Commie keypads
> > >
> > >
> > > > Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words:
> > > > >On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [[[ Editor's Note - original poster not identified ]]]
> > > >
> > > > >> > > So this discussion isn't totally off-topic,
does anyone have
> > > > >> > > any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1
keyboard?
> > > >
> > > > [ snip ]
> > > >
> > > > >I'll bet that the KIM-1 keypad was the same type that was
used in one
> > of
> > > > >Commodore's pocket calculators. But even THOSE are pretty
rare.
> > > > >
> > > > >I guess you're SOL. Is it possible to unsolder the keypad
and
> > disassemble
> > > > >it to clean the contacts?
> > > >
> > > > I hope he's not [1]... I happen to have a Commie pocket
calculator in
my
> > > > basement - dunno if it's what
you're looking for (it's *duuuuuusty!*
and
> > I
> > > > don't think it works well) but I can put digital pix on the
'net in
the
> > >
next couple days if that'd help...
> > >
> > > Shipping or small trade would be all I ask...
> > >
> > > [1] I'm hoping that the original poster isn't SOL, that is...
> > >
> > > HTH,
> > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger
> > > --
> > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
> > > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
> > >
> > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
> > > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
9 Apr
9 Apr
1:35 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Beleive it or not. I'm on topic.
Not to let the cat out of the bag but to do exactly that, Computer Parts
Barn has several machines you might be EXTREMELY interested in.
An original Kim
An original Imsai 8080
An original Sim
An original Sol20?
All for sale (at the right price)
-- and others. If you want a full account, I will visit there and
inventory. I'm only a couple of miles from there. The deal is that the
proprietor is expecting to retire on this gear or something like it. No
phone, no loan. Dig? He want's full freight for this gear, but if you
offer something close to full freight, he will bite.
He also has a couple of 16bit DG boxes among his 8-bit gear. If you saw
the collection you would die of bliss.
For myself, I'd love to have one or all those killer 8-bit boxes but we
don't have the money to spend on toys right now. These machines are dry,
well kept, maybe a bit dusty. They have not had power for decades but are
complete. Best, worst kept secret on the web.
You want one? Call Ed Kirby at EdCPB(a)email.com. or give me a ring at the
numbers or email adresses below. I'll work hard for you and it won't cost
you anything but what it costs for the gear itsself. His number is
828-274-5963. Good luck and happy hunting!
Regards,
Jeff
Others are a poor condition Pet 2002.
In <Pine.LNX.4.10.10104091626020.16774-100000(a)siconic.com>om>, on 04/09/01
at 09:35 PM, Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> said:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Ross Archer wrote:
> > > So this discussion isn't totally
off-topic, does anyone have
> > > any suggestions on how to fix my dead KIM-1 keyboard?
> >
> > Find a cheap Chinese-made replacement keyboard.
>
> Hehe, brilliant reply.
>
> I was hoping to do something more home-made
> and customized to have the same layout.
> The odds of getting that in a premade keyboard
> are about the same as that crash actually
> being deliberate from either side, which is
> to say, low. But conspiracy theories are fun. :-)
Ok, so all kidding aside, your best bet is to probably
find a batch of
surplus KIM-1 keyboards (this is not as far-fetched as you may
think...certainly less far-fetched than the idea of Jeffrey staying on
topic ;)
The next equally impossible suggestion is to find
another KIM-1 that is
mostly junk and use it for parts.
I'll bet that the KIM-1 keypad was the same type
that was used in one of
Commodore's pocket calculators. But even THOSE are pretty rare.
I guess you're SOL. Is it possible to unsolder the
keypad and
disassemble it to clean the contacts?
Sellam Ismail
Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
1:22 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001 THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
An original Sim
What in tarnations is a Sim?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
2:45 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001 THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
My guess is a misspelt SYM.
-ethan
=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
The original webpage address is still going away. The
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
An original Sim
What in tarnations is a Sim?
3:13 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Mr. Dicks is right. My mistake. I couldn't afford Kilobaud back then so
rely on memory today. And, based on your previous message, that memory is
imperfect to say the least. Ask my wife C ummm C umm Chrissy.
V/R
Jeff
In <20010410024554.23714.qmail(a)web9502.mail.yahoo.com>om>, on 04/09/01
at 11:13 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com> said:
--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Apr 2001 THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
>
> > An original Sim
>
> What in tarnations is a Sim?
My guess is a misspelt SYM.
-ethan
=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
The original webpage address is still going away. The
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
2:54 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Sim was a single board back in the days of Aim65, ELF, and others. Just
another box. Often, things Sim were referred to as Kim/Sim because they
used the same CPU and had little in the way of anything else. In that
sense, they were compatible.
regards,
Jeff
In <Pine.LNX.4.10.10104091821490.17306-100000(a)siconic.com>om>, on 04/09/01
at 10:54 PM, Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> said:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001 THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
> An original Sim
What in tarnations is a Sim?
Sellam Ismail
Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
3:20 p.m.
New subject: system/36 parts for free
Well, free means for shipping, but the guts of the machine are going. I'm
turning it into a wet bar.
Lemme know,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
8:06 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Conspiracy theories abound! I love it. I thought something like that
might be.
It would explain why the pilot is missing though he did eject. Chinese
pilots in general may be second string, but I doubt they are generally so
incompetant as to go crashing into other airplanes whilest escorting them.
Maybe they will produce him, maybe not. I've heard Chinese pilots called
2nd rate pilots in 3rd rate aircraft, but they do have some Mig 29's I
wouldn't want to tangle with.
The Chinese claim that our plane veered into thier's is ridiculous. Just
like the rules of the road for seagoing vessels, the smaller, more
maneuverable vessel maneuvers and the larger, less maneuverable one
maintains it's heading and speed.
Example, I was sailing in the Bahamas about 15 years ago. We were near
the Acoustic testing range called Autec. We were under sail. The captain
radioed us to maneuver and we said "NO". He maneuvered his destroyer
around us. Not the reverse.
We stayed at the AUTEC range for a few days. It was fun dinking with the
Navy in our 44' sailboat.
The operable variables are: Method of Propulsion - wind power stays on
course, motors maneuver. Size: The smaller vessel is generally the more
maneuverable and is obliged to do so.
There are other rules as well, but these two suit this situation very
nicely. Fast, jet powered fighter aircraft can and should avoid colliding
with butt slow prop-driven piglike aircraft. Really, that is the first
duty of any fighter pilot after taking off and before landing. The rest
is trying to SHOOT down the bad guys. Ramming them is not nearly so
effective, as our Chinese friends have learned.
In <l03102801b6f6f44db419(a)[192.168.1.4]>4]>, on 04/09/01
at 04:06 PM, Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> said:
>Not to start a flame war, but...
Fighter jet and large heavy turboprop spy plane
collide, and I think by
definition the bulk of the blame has to go on the fighterjet.
Want some wild speculation? How about the fighter pilot
was INSTRUCTED to
crash into the spy plane to force it to land on chinese soil.
IMHO Greed, worldwide, is currently blinding people to
a proper course of
action with China.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
11:29 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Mike Ford wrote:
Fwooosh!
Not to start a
flame war, but...
Fighter jet and large heavy turboprop spy plane
collide, and I think by
definition the bulk of the blame has to go on the fighterjet.
Want some wild speculation? How about the fighter pilot was INSTRUCTED to
crash into the spy plane to force it to land on chinese soil.
China's definition of the boundary of their nation isn't the same
as ours (in the US). IIRC, they claim 200 miles of ocean, and we
claim 50 miles of ocean. I may be wrong on the numbers, but the
idea is correct.
Put the shoe on the other foot... If China was flying a plane with
the sole purpose of intercept our communications traffic within OUR
territorial waters, you can be certain a pair of US fighters would
force them out, or crash them, or probably even shoot them down.
Why do we, as Americans, feel we can do whatever we want, whenever
we want? We didn't learn our lesson when the U2 was shot down over
Russia? We didn't learn our lesson in the Bay of Pigs fiasco?
I think the blame rests solely with the idiots in Washington, DC
that sent the spy plane out to begin with...
IMHO Greed, worldwide, is currently blinding people to
a proper course of
action with China.
I agree with this. It's a huge market for our goods, and a huge
pool of cheap labor to make goods for us. If you can get a room
full of children to sew shoes for pennies a day, and sell the
same shoes for $100 in the US, there are a lot of dollars
available to buy the goverment you want...
clint
PS And how 'bout Bush selling his soul to the oil & gas interests?
Does anyone other than me think the California energy crisis and the
midwest gasoline prices were deliberately set up to encourage
legislation to allow exploration in Alaska and other federally
protected wilderness areas?
11:53 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Yes. Of course we would, but we would not ever COLLIDE with that
aircraft. That would be counter productive to both the US and it's pilot.
Regards,
Jeff
In <Pine.BSF.4.21.0104091719190.22435-100000(a)oldy.crwolff.com>om>, on
04/09/01
at 07:53 PM, "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" <vaxman(a)qwest.net> said:
Put the shoe on the other foot... If China was flying a
plane with the
sole purpose of intercept our communications traffic within OUR
territorial waters, you can be certain a pair of US fighters would force
them out, or crash them, or probably even shoot them down.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
10 Apr
10 Apr
3:17 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
At 05:29 PM 4/9/01 -0600, clint wrote:
China's definition of the boundary of their nation isn't the same
as ours (in the US). IIRC, they claim 200 miles of ocean, and we
claim 50 miles of ocean. I may be wrong on the numbers, but the
idea is correct.
Put the shoe on the other foot... If China was flying a plane with
the sole purpose of intercept our communications traffic within OUR
territorial waters, you can be certain a pair of US fighters would
force them out, or crash them, or probably even shoot them down.
BULLSHIT! The Cubans regularly fly along and even into our borders. The
North Koreans do the same in Korea. The East Germans did the same in
Europe. The Russians did the same in the North Atlantic, Bearing Sea and
other places. And there are a good number of other examples that I could
name. We routinely intercept and fly along with them but to my knowledge we
NEVER crashed into one mush less shot one down. Another good example are
the antenna laiden "fishing boats" from Russia and other coutries that
regularly patrol just off our shores. When have we ever crashed into or
shot at one?
Why do we, as Americans, feel we can do whatever we want, whenever
we want? We didn't learn our lesson when the U2 was shot down over
Russia? We didn't learn our lesson in the Bay of Pigs fiasco?
This isn't the same thing at all. The EP-3 was over international water.
Even if the chinese claim a 200 mile territorial limit, the fact remains
that the EP_3 was not over any of their land mass. That makes this very
different from the Bay or Pigs or U-2 incidents.
Joe
5:23 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Something people seem to be missing here, is that gathering intelligence
promotes PEACE and prevents WAR. Generally speaking it is in the interest
of most people in the world for things like the sale or transport of
weapons of mass distruction to be detected EARLY. If for example Iraq got
its hands on some "working" missles instead of the reject scuds the whole
middle east could go up in smoke. It would be messy for everybody if
terrorist groups got a couple nukes.
This second link to Janes is an assessment of the risk, and it looks like
the spy plane was just upgraded to the latest tech. They say the worst loss
since the U2 went down.
http://www.janes.co.uk/aerospace/military/news/misc/aries010406_1_n.shtml
12 Apr
12 Apr
2:25 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Want some wild speculation? How about the fighter
pilot was INSTRUCTED to
crash into the spy plane to force it to land on chinese soil.
not that drastic, the chinese are not that suicidal
the hotdogging and thumping had one and only one purpose: nudge NUDGE the
ep3 that flew on the intl lines edge into chinese airspace ... lift it under
its left wing! - and then have the follow-plane down it for not immediately
answering commands to land at hainan airport for penetrating restricted
chinese airspace over a secret airbase - as secret as the satellite photo
shows - and creating an incident of american agression on holy chinese
territory......shades of kal 007.....havent the us public gotten enough of
that kind of crap?
net result: wang wei pressed the button to eject.....when he hit the
underwing with his rudder...and he ejected right into engine #2....instant
waring blender....a propeller of 16ft dia and 27000rpm....ugh....wang wei
pressed the wong button!
fred
8 Apr
8 Apr
9:06 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Hmmmm,
I'd have to agreed, quite frankly if it were the other way around, we'd
have the NSA, CIA and everyone other "A"cronym crawling all over some
captured piece of technology wanting to get whatever we could from it
before having to return it to its rightful owners.
The catch 22 here is the "Black Box" in the plane, which would
basically tell exactly what happened up there and whether or not the plane
made the supposed sudden turn or if the Chinese fighter jockey was playing
it a little too close to the cuff and crashed into the plane.
Curt
THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
In that the equipment on the plane may fall into the
classic category,
this message might be on-topic...... Kinda.
I think the Chinese are holding our people and demanding an impossible
apology to give themselves time to hack whatever is left of the gear
aboard our plane.
Please do send your thoughts on this to:
chinaembassy_us(a)fmprc.gov.cn
This is the e-mail address of the Chinese Embassy in Washington DC.
Our people need our support now. Later is never in this game.
Regards,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
12:07 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Vendel" <curt(a)atari-history.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
The catch 22 here is the "Black Box" in
the plane, which would
basically tell exactly what happened up there and whether or not the
plane
made the supposed sudden turn or if the Chinese
fighter jockey was
playing
it a little too close to the cuff and crashed into the
plane.
Military aircraft do not normally carry flight data recorders. This
would be a Bad Thing if the aircraft were shot down
and had details of it's course and speed, not to mention cockpit
conversations and radio traffic prior to being shot down.
Any GPS or other positioning data would have been flushed prior to
landing, since it would have been on the destruction list.
There are several variants to the scenario (this is part of the reason
the crew are still being held) but the most likely, and eliminating as
much rhetoric as possible, is that the Finback was either holding
formation way too close and they contacted during the course of normal
flight and manouvering, or the Finback was doing a 'thump' pass and
misjudged and they hit.
Some reports indicate that the Finback hit the prop on the way past, let
me tell you that a 16' diameter prop on a 7,500 SHP gas turbine will
ruin your whole day. (Another account is that the Finback pilot ejected
ok, but into one of the props. Ick.)
In either case, if the matter is not resolved within a reasonable time
frame, it is reasonable to assume the US will take action against China
in some form, (though I doubt if they will do anything before the crew
are returned, realistically, they are less worried about the aircraft
itself) probably this action will take the form of commissioning a new,
well armed, aircraft carrier off the coast of China.
USS Taiwan by name. (Basically, I expect the US to give Taiwan anything
on it's shopping list) China's entry to the WTO would now be seriously
in doubt, and I'd say they can forget the 2008 Olympics.
My 02c worth.
Now back to our regularly scheduled Classic Computers.
FLGOFF (AIRTC) Geoff Roberts
FLTCDR
No. 14 (City of Port Pirie) Flight
S.A. Squadron
Air Training Corps
geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au
12:52 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Do you remember when we would call that "an Army weather plane doing
meteorological research"?
When did we start calling them spy planes?
What WOULD we do if the roles were reversed?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
3:46 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Vendel" <curt(a)atari-history.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
I've flown back and forth between Canada nd Hong Kong for the past
decade, and I'm current living in Hong Kong, so I'm somewhat
familiar with that patch of air space. At this time of year there
is a lot of turbulence in that region, and I suspect it played
a role in the accident. This is somewhat consistent with the
reports on the accident. Since the US plane is larger and slower
than the Chinese fighters it would be effected more by the
turbulence. This would explain the report of its sudden movement
into the Chinese fighter. If this is the case, it truely was an
accident, and neither side is to blame, just a case of mis-judging
distances and weather.
The catch 22 here is the "Black Box"
in the plane, which would
basically tell exactly what happened up there and whether or not the
plane
made the supposed sudden turn or if the Chinese
fighter jockey was
playing
it a little too close to the cuff and crashed
into the plane.
Military aircraft do not normally carry flight data recorders. This
would be a Bad Thing if the aircraft were shot down
and had details of it's course and speed, not to mention cockpit
conversations and radio traffic prior to being shot down.
Any GPS or other positioning data would have been flushed prior to
landing, since it would have been on the destruction list.
There are several variants to the scenario (this is part of the reason
the crew are still being held) but the most likely, and eliminating as
much rhetoric as possible, is that the Finback was either holding
formation way too close and they contacted during the course of normal
flight and manouvering, or the Finback was doing a 'thump' pass and
misjudged and they hit.
Some reports indicate that the Finback hit the prop on the way past, let
me tell you that a 16' diameter prop on a 7,500 SHP gas turbine will
ruin your whole day. (Another account is that the Finback pilot ejected
ok, but into one of the props. Ick.)
In either case, if the matter is not resolved within a reasonable time
frame, it is reasonable to assume the US will take action against China
in some form, (though I doubt if they will do anything before the crew
are returned, realistically, they are less worried about the aircraft
itself) probably this action will take the form of commissioning a new,
well armed, aircraft carrier off the coast of China.
USS Taiwan by name. (Basically, I expect the US to give Taiwan anything
on it's shopping list) China's entry to the WTO would now be seriously
in doubt, and I'd say they can forget the 2008 Olympics.
The Chinese side of the story has changed somewhat today. The other
Chinese pilot has been somewhat dis-credited by the Chinese media for
not telling the complete story. It could be that there will be a
solution sometime in the next few days.
My 02c worth.
Now back to our regularly scheduled Classic Computers.
FLGOFF (AIRTC) Geoff Roberts
FLTCDR
No. 14 (City of Port Pirie) Flight
S.A. Squadron
Air Training Corps
geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au
--
Dr. Mark Green mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca
McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584
Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX)
University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada
4:32 p.m.
New subject: Way OT (was RE: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.)
Mark Green wrote:
Since the US plane is larger and slower than the
Chinese fighters it
would be effected more by the turbulence.
Based on published data I make the wing loading of the Fishbed as
around 77 lb/sq ft at max gross; at max gross the Aires-II
comes in at 107 lb/sq ft. If anything the Aires-II should be more
stable in turbulence.
This would explain the report of its sudden movement
into the Chinese fighter.
There's a bunch of problems with the Chinese claim that the EP-3
made a sudden roll and thus caused the contact:
- The photo evidence of the damage isn't consistent with running
into another airplane. The prop tips are munched, but the props
are still attached to the gearboxes and the gearboxes and engines
didn't depart the airframe. The damage is more consistent with
colliding with birds -- or debris.
- The radome is missing. I'm at a loss to explain how the radome
got ripped off the aircraft by contact on the wing -- especially
given that the fuselage forward of the wing root doesn't appear
damaged.
It looks more like the Fishbed was trying to bump the Aries (which
essentially consists of passing under the Aires with a delta of
about +200 knots and pulling vertical) and wasn't up to the task.
The empennage collided with the radome, peeled the radome and part of
the empennage off and the Aires in turn plowed through the debris field.
The Chinese side of the story has changed somewhat
today. The other
Chinese pilot has been somewhat dis-credited by the Chinese media for
not telling the complete story.
Like saying that _he_ gave the downed pilot permission to bail out?
Since when does wing give lead permission to do anything (the usual
job of wing is to tuck in tight, shut up and listen to guard) -- or
was the surviving pilot lead, in which case what was the wingman doing
in a position where the only way he could collide with the Aires
would have been if the Aires went into Beta thrust?
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
6:33 p.m.
New subject: Way OT (was RE: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.)
On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Chris Kennedy wrote:
- The radome is missing. I'm at a loss to explain
how the radome
got ripped off the aircraft by contact on the wing -- especially
given that the fuselage forward of the wing root doesn't appear
damaged.
Was the missing radome collision damage?
Or would jettisoning the radome be standard procedure?
9 Apr
9 Apr
8:19 a.m.
New subject: Way OT (was RE: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.)
There is some disagreement about jettisoning the radome. Not sure what
made it fall off, but it is only a fiberglass bubble over a radar
transceiver. Not terribly sturdy because it has to be transparent to
radar waves. It is only there to protect the antennae and for aerodynamic
purposes.
I bet that is one of the only senders on the plane. The rest of it are
antennae for receiving electronic intelligence such as radar frequencies,
radio traffic, microwave traffic, and the like.
In <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104082328560.11155-100000(a)lanshark.lanminds.com>om>, on
04/09/01
at 04:19 PM, "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> said:
On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Chris Kennedy wrote:
> - The radome is missing. I'm at a loss to explain how the radome
> got ripped off the aircraft by contact on the wing -- especially
> given that the fuselage forward of the wing root doesn't appear
> damaged.
Was the missing radome collision damage?
Or would jettisoning the radome be standard procedure?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
9:06 a.m.
New subject: Way OT (was RE: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.)
There is some disagreement about jettisoning the
radome. Not sure what
made it fall off, but it is only a fiberglass bubble over a radar
transceiver. Not terribly sturdy because it has to be transparent to
radar waves. It is only there to protect the antennae and for aerodynamic
purposes.
I think what bugs me the most about that missing radome is that the radar
emitter and hydraulic actuator(or fixed mount if the emitter is for a
phased array system) seems to be missing as well. The picture I
saw (admittedly on TV) didn't show much if any damage to that first
station that the emitter assembly gets bolted to. This makes me think
that it was removed post-landing...
g.
8 Apr
8 Apr
9:29 p.m.
New subject: Way OT (was RE: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.)
The Chinese side of the story has changed
somewhat today. The other
Chinese pilot has been somewhat dis-credited by the Chinese media for
not telling the complete story.
Like saying that _he_ gave the downed pilot permission to bail out?
Since when does wing give lead permission to do anything (the usual
job of wing is to tuck in tight, shut up and listen to guard) -- or
was the surviving pilot lead, in which case what was the wingman doing
in a position where the only way he could collide with the Aires
would have been if the Aires went into Beta thrust? 
9 Apr
9 Apr
3:48 a.m.
New subject: Way OT (was RE: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.)
- The radome is missing. I'm at a loss to explain
how the radome
got ripped off the aircraft by contact on the wing -- especially
given that the fuselage forward of the wing root doesn't appear
damaged.
I've assumed that the missing radome was part of the "landing preparations"
if you know what I mean.
Eric
8:10 a.m.
New subject: Way OT (was RE: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.)
Guess I'd be a good EC intel guy, I can strip anything machine in minutes
with nothing but a screwdriver and a hammer. Heck, I can do damage with a
well made dime. Give me ten minutes with a crowbar on one of those E3's and
they'd be lucky if they got a seat out of it...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric J. Korpela" <korpela(a)ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: Way OT (was RE: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.)
preparations"
- The radome
is missing. I'm at a loss to explain how the radome
got ripped off the aircraft by contact on the wing -- especially
given that the fuselage forward of the wing root doesn't appear
damaged.
I've assumed that the missing radome was part of the "landing
if you know what I mean.
Eric
12:10 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
At 09:37 AM 09/04/2001 +0930, you wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Vendel" <curt(a)atari-history.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
A friend suggests that the neatness of the opening at the front of
the US aircraft suggests that sensitive equipment in the nose may have been
jettisoned after the collision.
Charlie Fox
Chas E. Fox Video Productions
793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8
foxvideo(a)wincom.net
Check out:
Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com
6:44 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
At 08:10 AM 4/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
At 09:37 AM 09/04/2001 +0930, you wrote:
Your friend doesn't know S&*T about aircraft! Does he really think it
takes 21 guys to operate something that could be held in the nose? All of
the senitive equipment is housed inside the aircraft and it's packed FULL
of equipment. The nose is hollow and contains a radar antenna. The antenna
and the dome are very fragile. That's why they broke off so cleanly. FWIW
I spent 3 years flying and working on a very similar aircraft for the USAF.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Vendel" <curt(a)atari-history.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
A friend suggests that the neatness of the opening at the front of
the US aircraft suggests that sensitive equipment in the nose may have been
jettisoned after the collision.
8 Apr
8 Apr
4:25 p.m.
New subject: Logbooks???
Hi everyone,
At the Vintage Computer Festival, in all the commotion and meeting
everyone, someone approached me and mentioned they had some old Atari
engineering logbooks. Unfortunately my brain (what little still works)
can't seem to generate enough electricity to remember the persons name.
So I'm hoping that person frequents this mailing list, if they do,
please send me an email and thanks.
Curt
5:47 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Sun, 8 Apr 2001 THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
In that the equipment on the plane may fall into the
classic category,
this message might be on-topic...... Kinda.
Or not at all, even.
I think the Chinese are holding our people and
demanding an impossible
apology to give themselves time to hack whatever is left of the gear
aboard our plane.
Shouldn't be much left if it was designed with any enginuity. There must
have been some kind of self-destruct mechanism, and destroying ICs may be
rather simple.
Our people need our support now. Later is never in
this game.
Our?
9 Apr
9 Apr
2:40 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote:
Hmmm, good point. This is an international mailing list. I'll bet the
very intrusion of this discussion offends a good many people.
And it is decidedly off-topic.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
Our people
need our support now. Later is never in this game.
Our?
7:55 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Intrusion?? Offending?? Why, because Americans care about what is
taking place between the USA and China? I wouldn't be offended if an
Israeli talked about the stuff in there country with the Palestinians.
Why is it that because a list is "International" that everyone is
expected to pretend that they don't live in a country?
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Sellam Ismail wrote:
Hmmm, good point. This is an international mailing
list. I'll bet the
very intrusion of this discussion offends a good many people.
And it is decidedly off-topic.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:13 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
Intrusion?? Offending?? Why, because Americans care
about what is
taking place between the USA and China? I wouldn't be offended if an
Israeli talked about the stuff in there country with the Palestinians.
Why is it that because a list is "International" that everyone is
expected to pretend that they don't live in a country?
Maybe the biggest objection is that it is completely and totally off-topic
for a mailing list dedicated to discussing old computers?
The LAST thing I want is an "Us vs. Them" argument in ClassicCmp.
In ClassicCmp, as in Cyerbspace, there are no borders.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
8:47 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
We are all adults here. I doubt this could turn into a flame war. One
fellow mentioned it might be interesting to hear what other's think about
it given the international nature of this list.
Nothing beats a list of articulate propellerheads like this one.
Regards,
Jeff
In <Pine.LNX.4.10.10104091211340.15778-100000(a)siconic.com>om>, on 04/09/01
at 04:47 PM, Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> said:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
> Intrusion?? Offending?? Why, because Americans
care about what is
> taking place between the USA and China? I wouldn't be offended if an
> Israeli talked about the stuff in there country with the Palestinians.
> Why is it that because a list is "International" that everyone is
> expected to pretend that they don't live in a country?
Maybe the biggest objection is that it is completely
and totally
off-topic for a mailing list dedicated to discussing old computers?
The LAST thing I want is an "Us vs. Them"
argument in ClassicCmp.
In ClassicCmp, as in Cyerbspace, there are no borders.
Sellam Ismail
Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
9:40 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001 THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
We are all adults here. I doubt this could turn into
a flame war. One
fellow mentioned it might be interesting to hear what other's think about
it given the international nature of this list.
Nothing beats a list of articulate propellerheads like this one.
Nothing beats someone insisting on carrying on a completely off-topic
discussion like a wooden club.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
11:32 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Aw, Sellam, why you gotta be like that?
If I were the only one interested then I could understand.
But I don't because I'm not.
Love.
Regards,
Jeff
In <Pine.LNX.4.10.10104091439220.16344-100000(a)siconic.com>om>, on 04/09/01
at 07:32 PM, Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> said:
Nothing beats someone insisting on carrying on a
completely off-topic
discussion like a wooden club.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
10:08 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
I came across a neat little PC/XT clone on the weekend, a Headstart
Explorer (made by Vendex according to some Web info I found). It's an 8088,
with an unusual level of integration: mono/CGA video card, modem (300
bps?), serial port, parallel port and external disk drive port all on the
motherboard. There's an internal 720K 3.5" drive, and a bay for an MFM
drive. Comes in an unusual pseudo-portable case, where the hinged keyboard
folds up and stores upside down on top of the case. There's a single ISA
slot under a cover on top. Apparently, there was a monitor available that
came with a custom stand that fit neatly over the desktop case.
It has several features I've not seen before: the folding keyboard, a
mono/colour switch on the video output, and the PS/2 style mouse and heavy
integration on a clone of this vintage. Also, as far as I could tell, there
was no trace of the manufacturers name anywhere. I had to take the system
to pieces to find the Headstart Explorer name on the PCB, and the name
Vendex wasn't on it anywhere.
Does anybody have the custom version of DOS that came with this thing, that
supposedly included a very annoying shell program, or any additional info
about this beast? I didn't get any manuals or docs with it (why oh why do
thrift stores never keep system components together?)
and the HD was missing.
Thanks,
Mark Gregory
11:36 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
Hello,
I used to know some people that owned one. They loved it, and used it
up into the mid 90s. The mom really liked the gui, and sort of prided
herself in owning such an old pre-win95 computer that had a gui. I
guess I can agree with her on that part, but I thought the GUI was kind
of dorky :-)
As far as surplus stores not keeping stuff together goes.... I can't
agree with you more. I am always finding stuff scattered at Goodwill.
If someone doesn't buy something in the first few days, people rip it
apart and scatter it!
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Mark Gregory wrote:
I came across a neat little PC/XT clone on the weekend, a Headstart
Explorer (made by Vendex according to some Web info I found). It's an 8088,
with an unusual level of integration: mono/CGA video card, modem (300
bps?), serial port, parallel port and external disk drive port all on the
motherboard. There's an internal 720K 3.5" drive, and a bay for an MFM
drive. Comes in an unusual pseudo-portable case, where the hinged keyboard
folds up and stores upside down on top of the case. There's a single ISA
slot under a cover on top. Apparently, there was a monitor available that
came with a custom stand that fit neatly over the desktop case.
It has several features I've not seen before: the folding keyboard, a
mono/colour switch on the video output, and the PS/2 style mouse and heavy
integration on a clone of this vintage. Also, as far as I could tell, there
was no trace of the manufacturers name anywhere. I had to take the system
to pieces to find the Headstart Explorer name on the PCB, and the name
Vendex wasn't on it anywhere.
Does anybody have the custom version of DOS that came with this thing, that
supposedly included a very annoying shell program, or any additional info
about this beast? I didn't get any manuals or docs with it (why oh why do
thrift stores never keep system components together?)
and the HD was missing.
Thanks,
Mark Gregory
4:22 p.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
Evening! We used to be a service center for Vendex. I'll look around the shop
tomorrow and see what info and programs I have for it and let the list know.
Bill Claussen
elecdata1
Chad Fernandez wrote:
Hello,
I used to know some people that owned one. They loved it, and used it
up into the mid 90s. The mom really liked the gui, and sort of prided
herself in owning such an old pre-win95 computer that had a gui. I
guess I can agree with her on that part, but I thought the GUI was kind
of dorky :-)
As far as surplus stores not keeping stuff together goes.... I can't
agree with you more. I am always finding stuff scattered at Goodwill.
If someone doesn't buy something in the first few days, people rip it
apart and scatter it!
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Mark Gregory wrote:
>
> I came across a neat little PC/XT clone on the weekend, a Headstart
> Explorer (made by Vendex according to some Web info I found). It's an 8088,
> with an unusual level of integration: mono/CGA video card, modem (300
> bps?), serial port, parallel port and external disk drive port all on the
> motherboard. There's an internal 720K 3.5" drive, and a bay for an MFM
> drive. Comes in an unusual pseudo-portable case, where the hinged keyboard
> folds up and stores upside down on top of the case. There's a single ISA
> slot under a cover on top. Apparently, there was a monitor available that
> came with a custom stand that fit neatly over the desktop case.
>
> It has several features I've not seen before: the folding keyboard, a
> mono/colour switch on the video output, and the PS/2 style mouse and heavy
> integration on a clone of this vintage. Also, as far as I could tell, there
> was no trace of the manufacturers name anywhere. I had to take the system
> to pieces to find the Headstart Explorer name on the PCB, and the name
> Vendex wasn't on it anywhere.
>
> Does anybody have the custom version of DOS that came with this thing, that
> supposedly included a very annoying shell program, or any additional info
> about this beast? I didn't get any manuals or docs with it (why oh why do
> thrift stores never keep system components together?)
> and the HD was missing.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark Gregory
11 Apr
11 Apr
3:55 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
Hello Chad,
I checked the shop and it appears that we don't have any information, schematics,
programs or what ever for the explorer. Apparently we got rid of it sometime
back.
Sorry
Bill Claussen
elecdata1
Chad Fernandez wrote:
Hello,
I used to know some people that owned one. They loved it, and used it
up into the mid 90s. The mom really liked the gui, and sort of prided
herself in owning such an old pre-win95 computer that had a gui. I
guess I can agree with her on that part, but I thought the GUI was kind
of dorky :-)
As far as surplus stores not keeping stuff together goes.... I can't
agree with you more. I am always finding stuff scattered at Goodwill.
If someone doesn't buy something in the first few days, people rip it
apart and scatter it!
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Mark Gregory wrote:
>
> I came across a neat little PC/XT clone on the weekend, a Headstart
> Explorer (made by Vendex according to some Web info I found). It's an 8088,
> with an unusual level of integration: mono/CGA video card, modem (300
> bps?), serial port, parallel port and external disk drive port all on the
> motherboard. There's an internal 720K 3.5" drive, and a bay for an MFM
> drive. Comes in an unusual pseudo-portable case, where the hinged keyboard
> folds up and stores upside down on top of the case. There's a single ISA
> slot under a cover on top. Apparently, there was a monitor available that
> came with a custom stand that fit neatly over the desktop case.
>
> It has several features I've not seen before: the folding keyboard, a
> mono/colour switch on the video output, and the PS/2 style mouse and heavy
> integration on a clone of this vintage. Also, as far as I could tell, there
> was no trace of the manufacturers name anywhere. I had to take the system
> to pieces to find the Headstart Explorer name on the PCB, and the name
> Vendex wasn't on it anywhere.
>
> Does anybody have the custom version of DOS that came with this thing, that
> supposedly included a very annoying shell program, or any additional info
> about this beast? I didn't get any manuals or docs with it (why oh why do
> thrift stores never keep system components together?)
> and the HD was missing.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark Gregory
8:08 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
Hello Bill,
It wasn't me that wanted the info, it was Mark Gregory. I just new
someone that had one at one time, but thanks for getting back to the
list with it :-)
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
bill claussen wrote:
Hello Chad,
I checked the shop and it appears that we don't have any information, schematics,
programs or what ever for the explorer. Apparently we got rid of it sometime
back.
Sorry
Bill Claussen
elecdata1
9 Apr
9 Apr
3:06 p.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
I got one at a local Goodwill also with the manuals and the monitor ( it
was $12 extra ) but the diskettes were missing. It works fine $20 for a
total $32 plus tax for everything. If need something from the manual
let me know and can send it to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Gregory" <gregorym(a)cadvision.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 5:08 PM
Subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
I came across a neat little PC/XT clone on the
weekend, a Headstart
Explorer (made by Vendex according to some Web info I found). It's an
8088,
with an unusual level of integration: mono/CGA video
card, modem (300
bps?), serial port, parallel port and external disk drive port all on
the
motherboard. There's an internal 720K 3.5"
drive, and a bay for an MFM
drive. Comes in an unusual pseudo-portable case, where the hinged
keyboard
folds up and stores upside down on top of the case.
There's a single
ISA
slot under a cover on top. Apparently, there was a
monitor available
that
came with a custom stand that fit neatly over the
desktop case.
It has several features I've not seen before: the folding keyboard, a
mono/colour switch on the video output, and the PS/2 style mouse and
heavy
integration on a clone of this vintage. Also, as far
as I could tell,
there
was no trace of the manufacturers name anywhere. I had
to take the
system
to pieces to find the Headstart Explorer name on the
PCB, and the name
Vendex wasn't on it anywhere.
Does anybody have the custom version of DOS that came with this thing,
that
supposedly included a very annoying shell program, or
any additional
info
about this beast? I didn't get any manuals or docs
with it (why oh why
do
thrift stores never keep system components together?)
and the HD was missing.
Thanks,
Mark Gregory
11 Apr
11 Apr
7:45 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
My wife's family still has one although I don't know if her younger brother has
'experimented' with it yet. It worked when I saw them last and I know they had
a bunch of games and programs for it. It ran what looked like a version of
windows. I can ask if they still have any programs for it.
Robert
Mark Gregory wrote:
I came across a neat little PC/XT clone on the
weekend, a Headstart
Explorer (made by Vendex according to some Web info I found). It's an 8088,
with an unusual level of integration: mono/CGA video card, modem (300
bps?), serial port, parallel port and external disk drive port all on the
motherboard. There's an internal 720K 3.5" drive, and a bay for an MFM
drive. Comes in an unusual pseudo-portable case, where the hinged keyboard
folds up and stores upside down on top of the case. There's a single ISA
slot under a cover on top. Apparently, there was a monitor available that
came with a custom stand that fit neatly over the desktop case.
It has several features I've not seen before: the folding keyboard, a
mono/colour switch on the video output, and the PS/2 style mouse and heavy
integration on a clone of this vintage. Also, as far as I could tell, there
was no trace of the manufacturers name anywhere. I had to take the system
to pieces to find the Headstart Explorer name on the PCB, and the name
Vendex wasn't on it anywhere.
Does anybody have the custom version of DOS that came with this thing, that
supposedly included a very annoying shell program, or any additional info
about this beast? I didn't get any manuals or docs with it (why oh why do
thrift stores never keep system components together?)
and the HD was missing.
Thanks,
Mark Gregory
8:23 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
Headstart had a cd to load it with and most people neither have the CD nor
do they have the boot floppy for the cdrom. I retored one back to factory
load about 3 yrs ago but I've since lost all ties with where the Headstart
links have gone.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Robert
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:46 PM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: New find: Headstart Explorer
My wife's family still has one although I don't know if her
younger brother has
'experimented' with it yet. It worked when I saw them last and I
know they had
a bunch of games and programs for it. It ran what looked like a
version of
windows. I can ask if they still have any programs for it.
Robert
Mark Gregory wrote:
I came across a neat little PC/XT clone on the
weekend, a Headstart
Explorer (made by Vendex according to some Web info I found).
It's an 8088,
with an unusual level of integration: mono/CGA
video card, modem (300
bps?), serial port, parallel port and external disk drive port
all on the
motherboard. There's an internal 720K
3.5" drive, and a bay for an MFM
drive. Comes in an unusual pseudo-portable case, where the
hinged keyboard
folds up and stores upside down on top of the
case. There's a single ISA
slot under a cover on top. Apparently, there was a monitor
available that
came with a custom stand that fit neatly over the
desktop case.
It has several features I've not seen before: the folding keyboard, a
mono/colour switch on the video output, and the PS/2 style
mouse and heavy
integration on a clone of this vintage. Also, as
far as I could
tell, there
was no trace of the manufacturers name anywhere.
I had to take
the system
to pieces to find the Headstart Explorer name on
the PCB, and the name
Vendex wasn't on it anywhere.
Does anybody have the custom version of DOS that came with this
thing, that
supposedly included a very annoying shell
program, or any
additional info
about this beast? I didn't get any manuals or
docs with it (why
oh why do
thrift stores never keep system components
together?)
and the HD was missing.
Thanks,
Mark Gregory
8:20 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Russ Blakeman" <rhblake(a)bigfoot.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: RE: New find: Headstart Explorer
Headstart had a cd to load it with and most people
neither have the CD
nor
do they have the boot floppy for the cdrom. I retored
one back to factory
load about 3 yrs ago but I've since lost all ties with where the
Headstart
links have gone.
Russ, are you sure we're talking about the same computer? 8088-based XT
clone by Vendex? CD drives were pretty expensive in the mid-to-late 1980s,
and it wasn't at all common for software to come on a CD. Additionally, I
didn't see anything like a CD-ROM connector when I took the beast apart.
Maybe you're thinking of a [Compaq,Dell,Gateway] "Headstart" program, where
the OS and software (usually MS-Works) were pre-loaded at the factory, as
an aid to newbies?
Cheers,
Mark.
9:30 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
Mark You are correct, they did not come with cd Roms, Not any that I worked on.
Most had a 40 meg drive if I remember right or it was an 80 meg I think.
Bill Claussen
elecdata1
Mark Gregory wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Russ Blakeman" <rhblake(a)bigfoot.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: RE: New find: Headstart Explorer
Headstart had a cd to load it with and most
people neither have the CD
nor
do they have the boot floppy for the cdrom. I
retored one back to factory
load about 3 yrs ago but I've since lost all ties with where the
Headstart
links have gone.
Russ, are you sure we're talking about the same computer? 8088-based XT
clone by Vendex? CD drives were pretty expensive in the mid-to-late 1980s,
and it wasn't at all common for software to come on a CD. Additionally, I
didn't see anything like a CD-ROM connector when I took the beast apart.
Maybe you're thinking of a [Compaq,Dell,Gateway] "Headstart" program,
where
the OS and software (usually MS-Works) were pre-loaded at the factory, as
an aid to newbies?
Cheers,
Mark.
10:17 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
Yup, they were 8088 or 8086 but came out around the time of the PS/2 and
were essentially a cheap Eduquest. (Nothing wrong with Eduquest, my daughter
runs a 35 w/95 on our network). They came with a sound card, cdrom (1x or 2,
can't remember) and I believe they also had a 286 model. They ran on DOS
with a GEM-like GUI and came with all sorts of neat programs and had lo-res
VGA as well. I just called the guy that I worked on it for and he had given
it away to a collector after he popped $4500 for a PIII-800 laptop and his
kids got tired of the thing. He even remebered the CD it had and the fun he
had restoring it without the cdrom driver, and having to look all over the
net then for it. I believe it had a Mitsumi interface drive linked to the
sound card.
From what I gathered they were expensive for what you
got but schools,
daycare, mom & pop and others blindly bought them in the name
of
"education".
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mark Gregory
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 3:20 PM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: New find: Headstart Explorer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Russ Blakeman" <rhblake(a)bigfoot.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: RE: New find: Headstart Explorer
Headstart had a cd to load it with and most
people neither have the CD
nor
do they have the boot floppy for the cdrom. I
retored one back
to factory
load about 3 yrs ago but I've since lost all
ties with where the
Headstart
links have gone.
Russ, are you sure we're talking about the same computer? 8088-based XT
clone by Vendex? CD drives were pretty expensive in the mid-to-late 1980s,
and it wasn't at all common for software to come on a CD. Additionally, I
didn't see anything like a CD-ROM connector when I took the beast apart.
Maybe you're thinking of a [Compaq,Dell,Gateway] "Headstart"
program, where
the OS and software (usually MS-Works) were pre-loaded at the factory, as
an aid to newbies?
Cheers,
Mark.
9:22 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
Vendex was bought by Philips Electronics. I am a service center for Philips, I
could ask if any info is still available if anyone is interested.
Bill Claussen
elecdata1
Russ Blakeman wrote:
Headstart had a cd to load it with and most people
neither have the CD nor
do they have the boot floppy for the cdrom. I retored one back to factory
load about 3 yrs ago but I've since lost all ties with where the Headstart
links have gone.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Robert
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:46 PM
> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: New find: Headstart Explorer
>
>
> My wife's family still has one although I don't know if her
> younger brother has
> 'experimented' with it yet. It worked when I saw them last and I
> know they had
> a bunch of games and programs for it. It ran what looked like a
> version of
> windows. I can ask if they still have any programs for it.
>
> Robert
>
> Mark Gregory wrote:
>
> > I came across a neat little PC/XT clone on the weekend, a Headstart
> > Explorer (made by Vendex according to some Web info I found).
> It's an 8088,
> > with an unusual level of integration: mono/CGA video card, modem (300
> > bps?), serial port, parallel port and external disk drive port
> all on the
> > motherboard. There's an internal 720K 3.5" drive, and a bay for an
MFM
> > drive. Comes in an unusual pseudo-portable case, where the
> hinged keyboard
> > folds up and stores upside down on top of the case. There's a single ISA
> > slot under a cover on top. Apparently, there was a monitor
> available that
> > came with a custom stand that fit neatly over the desktop case.
> >
> > It has several features I've not seen before: the folding keyboard, a
> > mono/colour switch on the video output, and the PS/2 style
> mouse and heavy
> > integration on a clone of this vintage. Also, as far as I could
> tell, there
> > was no trace of the manufacturers name anywhere. I had to take
> the system
> > to pieces to find the Headstart Explorer name on the PCB, and the name
> > Vendex wasn't on it anywhere.
> >
> > Does anybody have the custom version of DOS that came with this
> thing, that
> > supposedly included a very annoying shell program, or any
> additional info
> > about this beast? I didn't get any manuals or docs with it (why
> oh why do
> > thrift stores never keep system components together?)
> > and the HD was missing.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mark Gregory
>
10:09 a.m.
New subject: New find: Headstart Explorer
He's right and I thought up the names/locations I was thinking of after I
sent the last post. When I had to reload the last one Phillips still had a
file/info base on the web intheir support area, not sure that they still do.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of bill claussen
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 4:22 PM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: New find: Headstart Explorer
Vendex was bought by Philips Electronics. I am a service center
for Philips, I
could ask if any info is still available if anyone is interested.
Bill Claussen
elecdata1
Russ Blakeman wrote:
Headstart had a cd to load it with and most
people neither have
the CD nor
do they have the boot floppy for the cdrom. I
retored one back
to factory
load about 3 yrs ago but I've since lost all
ties with where
the Headstart
links have gone.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Robert
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:46 PM
> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: New find: Headstart Explorer
>
>
> My wife's family still has one although I don't know if her
> younger brother has
> 'experimented' with it yet. It worked when I saw them last and I
> know they had
> a bunch of games and programs for it. It ran what looked like a
> version of
> windows. I can ask if they still have any programs for it.
>
> Robert
>
> Mark Gregory wrote:
>
> > I came across a neat little PC/XT clone on the weekend, a Headstart
> > Explorer (made by Vendex according to some Web info I found).
> It's an 8088,
> > with an unusual level of integration: mono/CGA video card,
modem (300
> > bps?), serial port, parallel port and
external disk drive port
> all on the
> > motherboard. There's an internal 720K 3.5" drive, and a bay
for
an MFM
> > drive. Comes in an unusual
pseudo-portable case, where the
> hinged keyboard
> > folds up and stores upside down on top of the case. There's
a single
ISA
> > slot under a cover on top. Apparently,
there was a monitor
> available that
> > came with a custom stand that fit neatly over the desktop case.
> >
> > It has several features I've not seen before: the folding
keyboard,
a
> > mono/colour switch on the video output,
and the PS/2 style
> mouse and heavy
> > integration on a clone of this vintage. Also, as far as I could
> tell, there
> > was no trace of the manufacturers name anywhere. I had to take
> the system
> > to pieces to find the Headstart Explorer name on the PCB,
and the name
> > Vendex wasn't on it anywhere.
> >
> > Does anybody have the custom version of DOS that came with this
> thing, that
> > supposedly included a very annoying shell program, or any
> additional info
> > about this beast? I didn't get any manuals or docs with it (why
> oh why do
> > thrift stores never keep system components together?)
> > and the HD was missing.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mark Gregory
>
9 Apr
9 Apr
9:44 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
I agree that it is off-topic. However, off-topic discussions get
tolerated all the time. I find it disturbing that any discussions
specific to the US get blasted as being blatantly improper, rude,
offensive, or whatever.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Sellam Ismail wrote:
Maybe the biggest objection is that it is completely
and totally off-topic
for a mailing list dedicated to discussing old computers?
The LAST thing I want is an "Us vs. Them" argument in ClassicCmp.
In ClassicCmp, as in Cyerbspace, there are no borders.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10:01 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
I agree that it is off-topic. However, off-topic
discussions get
tolerated all the time. I find it disturbing that any discussions
specific to the US get blasted as being blatantly improper, rude,
offensive, or whatever.
Chad, where did you get this (erroneous) impression?
Off-topic discussions usually just happen as a consequence of topical
discussions, and it was slowly learned over the years that no matter how
much bitching and griping goes on about it, they always eventually go away
on their own.
In this case, an off-topic discussion was specifically started by Jeffrey
Worley, who all too regularly does this. Sorry, but I have to draw the
line on this, especially when someone comes to the defense of it. It is
NOT acceptable.
Case in point: would you like me to begin a discussion on my hemorrhoids?
I don't actually have hemorrhoids, but that's inconsequential. I want to
talk about them.
Chad, do you want to talk about hemorrhoids?
I didn't think so. So why do you think it's OK to begin a discussion
about spy planes being shot down, when there are probably a hundred
threads discussing this going on at other more appropriate places?
More importantly, why do you think it's rude for anyone to object?
This list is international in scope, and narrow in focus. We are a
world-wide group of individuals collected here to mainly talk about old
computers. We are not here to discuss world politics, or the US military,
or guns, or automobiles (gee, there isn't a topic I just mentioned that
wasn't brought up by Jeffrey at some point...hmmm).
Is that OK with you, Chad? Am I unpatriotic for insisting that we keep an
off-topic thread, of which probably only Americans and Chinese are
interested in, off a mailing list about classic computers?
Hmmmm?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
11:43 a.m.
New subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
I just thought we might start that thread for an ice breaker....
Regards,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
11:21 a.m.
New subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001 THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
I just thought we might start that thread for an ice
breaker....
My hemorrhoids are a rare variety called Worleyites. The nastiest type
you can get. Usually onset by smoking crack. I've been trying to break
the habit but everytime I have to endure an off-topic thread started by
Jeffrey I just have to hit that pipe!
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
12:12 p.m.
New subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
Sellam would have probably beaten me at my 6th grade spelling bee. Better
a live ignorant that a dead genius I suppose... I meant right. That
counts no?
Regards,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
11:42 a.m.
New subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001 THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
Sellam would have probably beaten me at my 6th grade
spelling bee.
Better a live ignorant that a dead genius I suppose... I meant right.
That counts no?
Don't feel too badly, I had to look it up myself. Although I must say I
got it more right than you on the first try (I substituted two m's for two
r's). You're missing an 'h' and have one too many 'e's.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
12:25 p.m.
New subject: Sellam
Jeff,
Stop that. Just becasue Sellam got a litte upset doesn't mean you have
to antagonize him.... even though it might be fun :-)
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
I just thought we might start that thread for an ice breaker....
Regards,
Jeff
3:05 p.m.
New subject: Sellam
Thanks for changing the topic for me.
I never had the intention of forewarding that topic. Thanks again.
Sellam knows where I'm at. I think and has the maturity to deal with it.
He has already demonstrated it with good humour. Just my intention.
Humor with a point.
I think we all need a coach or a challenge once in awhile. He got his and
that is all. I'm no patsey and we all know that now.
I've shown my ass on this list and people, for some reason, still love me.
Thank you all. I enjoy your company and would miss you if I were to be
lost from the list. Your collective forgiveness is something I've enjoyed
and something Sellam still and probably will always enjoy. <GRIN>
Oh, and it was fun. That is the point is it not? Next time you take a
screwdriver to a PDP, remember that this is supposed to be FUN!
All for the greater good.
Best and regards,
Jeff
In <3AD252DF.719877B2(a)internet1.net>et>, on 04/09/01
at 11:05 PM, Chad Fernandez <fernande(a)internet1.net> said:
Jeff,
Stop that. Just becasue Sellam got a litte upset
doesn't mean you have
to antagonize him.... even though it might be fun :-)
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
>
> I just thought we might start that thread for an ice breaker....
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
10 Apr
10 Apr
4:06 a.m.
New subject: Sellam
Wherever Sam's at, you need a spellchecker!
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: <THETechnoid(a)home.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: Sellam
Thanks for changing the topic for me.
I never had the intention of forewarding that topic. Thanks again.
Sellam knows where I'm at. I think and has the maturity to deal with it.
He has already demonstrated it with good humour. Just my intention.
Humor with a point.
I think we all need a coach or a challenge once in awhile. He got his and
that is all. I'm no patsey and we all know that now.
I've shown my ass on this list and people, for some reason, still love me.
Thank you all. I enjoy your company and would miss you if I were to be
lost from the list. Your collective forgiveness is something I've enjoyed
and something Sellam still and probably will always enjoy. <GRIN>
Oh, and it was fun. That is the point is it not? Next time you take a
screwdriver to a PDP, remember that this is supposed to be FUN!
All for the greater good.
Best and regards,
Jeff
In <3AD252DF.719877B2(a)internet1.net>et>, on 04/09/01
at 11:05 PM, Chad Fernandez <fernande(a)internet1.net> said:
Jeff,
Stop that. Just becasue Sellam got a litte upset
doesn't mean you have
to antagonize him.... even though it might be fun :-)
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
>
> I just thought we might start that thread for an ice breaker....
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
4:03 a.m.
New subject: Sellam
I used to do that too. He must have said something that P*SSED me off, but now
that I don't remember it any longer, it makes little sense to go on picking on
the guy.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Fernandez" <fernande(a)internet1.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Sellam
Jeff,
Stop that. Just becasue Sellam got a litte upset doesn't mean you have
to antagonize him.... even though it might be fun :-)
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
I just thought we might start that thread for an ice breaker....
Regards,
Jeff
3:51 a.m.
New subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
You have GOT to get a spell-checker!
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: <THETechnoid(a)home.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
I just thought we might start that thread for an ice
breaker....
Regards,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
10:09 a.m.
New subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
Jeez, I'd have to REGISTER my e-mailer for that. What do you want from
me? Blood?
Seriously, Sellam has a great sense of humor. I'm impressed.
Regards,
Jeff
In <004401c0c1d6$1b7098e0$9cc762d8(a)idcomm.com>om>, on 04/10/01
at 06:09 PM, "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> said:
You have GOT to get a spell-checker!
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: <THETechnoid(a)home.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
> I just thought we might start that thread for an
ice breaker....
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jeffrey S. Worley
> President
> Complete Computer Services, Inc.
> 30 Greenwood Rd.
> Asheville, NC 28803
> 828-277-5959
> Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
> THETechnoid(a)home.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
7:33 p.m.
New subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: Sellam's Hemmeroids
You have GOT to get a spell-checker!
--- Wondering if it isn't rather anal-retentive to worry
about the spelling of hemmoroids?
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: <THETechnoid(a)home.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
I just thought we might start that thread for an
ice breaker....
Regards,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
11 Apr
11 Apr
6:38 a.m.
New subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
Taken by itself, it wouldn't be annoying, but anyone who thinks so little about
what he posts that he has serious spelling/grammar/syntax errors in every post
needs to slow down and think before hitting the SEND button.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: Sellam's Hemmeroids
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: Sellam's Hemmeroids
You have GOT to get a spell-checker!
--- Wondering if it isn't rather anal-retentive to worry
about the spelling of hemmoroids?
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: <THETechnoid(a)home.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
I just thought we might start that thread for an
ice breaker....
Regards,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
2:38 p.m.
New subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Taken by itself, it wouldn't be annoying, but
anyone who thinks so little about
what he posts that he has serious spelling/grammar/syntax errors in every post
needs to slow down and think before hitting the SEND button.
Dick
I guess that joke was so bad, it slid right under people.
Hemmoroids. Anal retentive. Heh heh heh.
:)
</me ducking for cover>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Archer" <dogbert(a)mindless.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: Sellam's Hemmeroids
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:51 AM
> Subject: Re: Sellam's Hemmeroids
>
>
> > You have GOT to get a spell-checker!
>
> --- Wondering if it isn't rather anal-retentive to worry
> about the spelling of hemmoroids?
>
> >
> > Dick
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <THETechnoid(a)home.com>
> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 5:43 PM
> > Subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
> >
> >
> > > I just thought we might start that thread for an ice breaker....
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > --
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > Jeffrey S. Worley
> > > President
> > > Complete Computer Services, Inc.
> > > 30 Greenwood Rd.
> > > Asheville, NC 28803
> > > 828-277-5959
> > > Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
> > > THETechnoid(a)home.com
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
12 Apr
12 Apr
12:30 a.m.
New subject: hp 3bnc-3bnc video cables?
Does anyone have any hp 3bnc-3bnc video cables that you don't need?
thanks.
-Bob
13 Apr
13 Apr
3:50 a.m.
New subject: Sellam's Hemmeroids
On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Taken by itself, it wouldn't be annoying, but
anyone who thinks so little about
what he posts that he has serious spelling/grammar/syntax errors in every post
needs to slow down and think before hitting the SEND button.
And you, dear sir, should learn to quote and snip correctly. Preferably
before your next message arrives at my inbox.
[snip snip snip snip snip snip]
9 Apr
9 Apr
12:04 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Sellam,
I have included comments below the referenced material.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
Personal observation of mailing list behavior.
I agree that it is off-topic. However, off-topic
discussions get
tolerated all the time. I find it disturbing that any discussions
specific to the US get blasted as being blatantly improper, rude,
offensive, or whatever.
Chad, where did you get this (erroneous) impression? Off-topic discussions usually just happen as a
consequence of topical
discussions, and it was slowly learned over the years that no matter how
much bitching and griping goes on about it, they always eventually go away
on their own.
In this case, an off-topic discussion was specifically started by Jeffrey
Worley, who all too regularly does this. Sorry, but I have to draw the
line on this, especially when someone comes to the defense of it. It is
NOT acceptable.
It varies by list, but I see off topic stuff started now and again. You
can read it, or not read it, just as easily as you can not read a thread
that started "on-topic".
Case in point: would you like me to begin a discussion
on my hemorrhoids?
I don't actually have hemorrhoids, but that's inconsequential. I want to
talk about them.
Well, if you really want to, but it's probably a thread I won't read :-)
Chad, do you want to talk about hemorrhoids?
See above :-)
I didn't think so. So why do you think it's OK to begin a discussion
about spy planes being shot down, when there are probably a hundred
threads discussing this going on at other more appropriate places?
More importantly, why do you think it's rude for anyone to object?
No, you misunderstood. I said the offenders (the US off-topic people)
are seen as "being blatantly improper, rude, offensive, or whatever." I
do get irritated by the people that see it this way.
This list is international in scope, and narrow in focus. We are a
world-wide group of individuals collected here to mainly talk about old
computers. We are not here to discuss world politics, or the US military,
or guns, or automobiles (gee, there isn't a topic I just mentioned that
wasn't brought up by Jeffrey at some point...hmmm).
Generally, I don't keep track of who brings what up.
Is that OK with you, Chad? Am I unpatriotic for insisting that we keep an
off-topic thread, of which probably only Americans and Chinese are
interested in, off a mailing list about classic computers?
Dude your are really mad, and need to cool off. It's not that big a
deal. Look at how many people are actually taking part in the thread.
If people objected that much to it, I don't think they would be actively
participating.
Hmmmm?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
I like your sig BTW.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
11:40 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
Thanks, it's all true. In fact, I am the pilot of the EP-3, writing this
message from confinement on Hainan Island in China. Luckily they gave us
e-mail access so we could communicate with friends and family back home,
but I took advantage of the opportunity to catch up on ClassicCmp
messages. Bandwidth is limited here, so that's why I'm getting peeved at
all this off-topic discussion about the incident (which, by the way, I
cannot talk about for obvious reasons :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
No, you misunderstood. I said the offenders (the US
off-topic people)
are seen as "being blatantly improper, rude, offensive, or whatever." I
do get irritated by the people that see it this way.
Chad, I feel this way about ANYONE who starts an off-topic discussion, be
they American, Chinese, Mexican or Arab. But I've learned from past
experience that it is pointless to try to fight it. Those that indulge in
the off-topic discussions will do it because they are perhaps rude and
selfish.
It's true that the best advice is to ignore it and move on to the next
message, and eventually the thread will die. But I found it necessary to
create another off-topic thread to object to your objection (thus proving
I am guilty too, ergo rude and selfish :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
I like your sig BTW.
10 Apr
10 Apr
4:32 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Sellam "old shoe" Ismail wrote:
Thanks, it's all true. In fact, I am the pilot of
the EP-3, writing this
message from confinement on Hainan Island in China. Luckily they gave us
Why didn't H explain to W that unless this is going to last 3.5 years, it
is too early?
Even if your hemmorrhoids spell out "Courage, mom" in Morse code (ASCII?
EBCDIC?), they are off-topic. And if they are over 10 years old, try a
cortisone cream.
So, just blue-screen the Hacker Hellstorm and come down off of the tower.
10:19 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Would they spell by tapping, clapping? Maybe they do thier spelling in
infrared..... Or red shift. I'd call em' a wonder of the world if they
did it in ASCII.
Step right up. Ladies and gents........... ;-)
Busy busy busy.
Regards,
Jeff
In <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104100925001.21314-100000(a)lanshark.lanminds.com>om>, on
04/10/01
at 06:19 PM, "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> said:
Even if your hemmorrhoids spell out "Courage,
mom" in Morse code (ASCII?
EBCDIC?), they are off-topic. And if they are over 10 years old, try a
cortisone cream.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
12 Apr
12 Apr
11:37 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
off-topic thread, of which probably only Americans and
Chinese are
interested in, off a mailing list about classic computers?
Sellam Ismail
Vintage Computer
Festival
Easy on your hemorhoids, Ismail!
On Easter Sunday, April 15th, the MIT opens its first 2001 Fleamarket, a
treasure trove of classic computers and communications equipment. It is
loaded with the best of the crop of MIT students from Chiba and americans
who wallow in junk. Who knows, maybe even some EP3 stuff will show up there?
Not so off topic at all, methinks.
Fred/K1HB
9 Apr
9 Apr
10:18 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Like that wierd Gieco commercial ( an automotive insurance company for you
foreigners ;-0).
I think the whole purpose of this group is to have fun. People want to
have fun. If it serves them to discuss something not wholely dedicated to
computing, then let them. We do. We do.
We enjoy computers. That is fun. We enjoy talking with each other. That
is fun. It is all about fun so ... have some!
On topic for this message and in response, I have some rap lyrics for you
by Sir Mix Alot.
I'm living like hell in a world of death
Protectors of the people wear bullet-proof vests
You little nit, you flipped him an Uzi
took to the street, shot em' up then WHO ME?
Locked in a trap by Republican villains
pinstripe suits, experts at killin'
Civil war, but some want out
locked in a trap called the ghetto we shout
Heading for the strip cause' the squares ain't hip
sell a couple g's, make the homeboys trip
The President is a dope-man's friend
the government's strong but the dope got in.
Punish the accused but the trial was short
A black mans' dogged in an all-white court.
Jury's dismissed, the prosecutor says "can em'"
Now I'm ashamed of my national anthem
The Pentagon had a plan for rescue
they said intelligence never makes misques
The thirty-first was a day of death
Lt. Col. Higgins....You know the rest.
Not negotiations with a terrorist force
but Iran's still buzzin off of Oliver North
The Iatollah's dead but the hearts' not gone
The burning of the flag Iran goes' on.
Anti-Americans - we're loved by few
we pay big money to the ones that do
The Christian Militia - they give us big knowledge
but the Pentagon messed up and wouldn't acknowlege
Ollie took orders from the number one man
but the crap hit the fan and superiors ran
Democrats trip. The committee said 'Can em''
Now I'm ashamed of my national anthem.
Am I a communist? No. But my brain ain't slow
not long ago Mix-a-Lot was po'
Never helped out by the one's with clout
I was mad at the world cause' I felt left out
Stealin' hub caps, stereos, anything to get paid
I realized I'm a modern-day slave
Posse downtown, the sight was sad
saw my homeboy's mother with a buggy and a bag
people walked by, laughing at poverty
I looked in her face and I soon saw me
College educated, but she can't get a job
The American dream once again got robbed
Vietnam vets on the street? That's a shame.
Fight for the man and the man plays games.
Dogged by the hippies. Dope smoking critics.
You blame it on the soldier but your government did it.
Bolivia, Columbia, the CIA, - any similarities - I won't say
But the dope gets in uncut like pfunk
headin' over boarders in a scent-free trunk
Coffee over dope but the dog cain't sniff it
remember that lady that was broke? She's with it.
Started with a key, clocked 17g's
got another shipment
pure D
Headin' for Portland, the money was better
Rollin' in a Porche and a Cashmere sweater
Crime, revenge, I'm telling you this
the people that laughed are the people that noticed
her community complained, callin' the police
but where was her community when she was in the streets?
The dope's commin' in. It's killin' em' at random.
Now I'm ashamed of my National Anthem.
From Jeff, Sup to you to figure out how this ties in,
but I'll give you a
hint. Nationalism never got us anywhere. Ask Adolf if you
can find him.
L.
Jeff
In <3AD22D33.99F9223E(a)internet1.net>et>, on 04/09/01
at 06:18 PM, Chad Fernandez <fernande(a)internet1.net> said:
I agree that it is off-topic. However, off-topic
discussions get
tolerated all the time. I find it disturbing that any discussions
specific to the US get blasted as being blatantly improper, rude,
offensive, or whatever.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Sellam Ismail wrote:
> Maybe the biggest objection is that it is completely and totally off-topic
> for a mailing list dedicated to discussing old computers?
>
> The LAST thing I want is an "Us vs. Them" argument in ClassicCmp.
>
> In ClassicCmp, as in Cyerbspace, there are no borders.
>
> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
11:15 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001 THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
I think the whole purpose of this group is to have
fun. People want
to have fun. If it serves them to discuss something not wholely
dedicated to computing, then let them. We do. We do.
Jeff, go fucking blow yourself.
We enjoy computers. That is fun. We enjoy talking
with each other. That
is fun. It is all about fun so ... have some!
It would seem your idea of having fun is smoking crack. God bless you,
but must you take us all down with you?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
12:22 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
Jeff,
From Jeff, Sup to you to figure out how this ties in,
but I'll give you a
hint. Nationalism never got us anywhere. Ask Adolf if you can find him.
Please don't equate Hitler with Nationalism. True, Hitler used
nationalism but to the level of abuse. Every nation should be able to
have a sense of National pride (nationalism).
One world govt. won't solve anything, I think it was you who alluded to
one world govt.? For instance, the situation that took place in the
Gulf War, the Iraqis were going after a smaller group in there own
country. Then the whole deal in the former Chekoslovakia (spelling?).
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
11:44 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
Please don't equate Hitler with Nationalism.
True, Hitler used
nationalism but to the level of abuse. Every nation should be able to
have a sense of National pride (nationalism).
Well, except the Germans, right Hans? :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
12 Apr
12 Apr
8:20 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
Jeff,
True. Without nationalism, we'd never have all those Acorns or ICONs. =)
From Jeff, Sup to you to figure out how this ties
in, but I'll give you a
hint. Nationalism never got us anywhere. Ask Adolf if you can find him.
Please don't equate Hitler with Nationalism. True, Hitler used
nationalism but to the level of abuse. Every nation should be able to
have a sense of National pride (nationalism). One world govt. won't solve anything, I think it
was you who alluded to
one world govt.? For instance, the situation that took place in the
Gulf War, the Iraqis were going after a smaller group in there own
country. Then the whole deal in the former Chekoslovakia (spelling?).
World government would solve a lot of things. At least russel said so, and
I'm inclined to believe him.
As for the Gulf war, I thought that was due to Iraq's attack on another
country, not the Kurd situation. The Kurds don't produce enough oil.
And as for Czechoslovakia, I can't think of any major problems there.
There is a gypsy situation and the usual eastern-bloc poverty, but at
least CZ seems to be doing quite fine.
9 Apr
9 Apr
8:27 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
That may be a good thing. You should check out the life and times of a
former U.S.A.A.F bomber pilot named Gary Davis. He wrote a book titled
"My Country is the World" and contributed much to the world for having
done so. I'm a registered World Citizen - passport and all.
I think it is nice that the list is borderless. Someday our world will be
too. No more internecine crap like what we are seeing now with the US and
China.
As for those hostages not being "our" people, I guess that is up to the
individual to decide. They are certainly my people and I care.
Regards,
Jeff
In <3AD213B5.720A46B5(a)internet1.net>et>, on 04/09/01
at 04:27 PM, Chad Fernandez <fernande(a)internet1.net> said:
Intrusion?? Offending?? Why, because Americans care
about what is taking
place between the USA and China? I wouldn't be offended if an Israeli
talked about the stuff in there country with the Palestinians. Why is it
that because a list is "International" that everyone is expected to
pretend that they don't live in a country?
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Sellam Ismail wrote:
> Hmmm, good point. This is an international mailing list. I'll bet the
> very intrusion of this discussion offends a good many people.
>
> And it is decidedly off-topic.
>
> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
8:43 a.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
At 07:40 AM 4/9/01 -0700, you wrote:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote:
Hmmm, good point. This is an international mailing list. I'll bet the
very intrusion of this discussion offends a good many people.
OT as hell but still it would be interesting to hear what some of the
non-US members think of it.
Joe
Our
people need our support now. Later is never in this game.
Our? 
9:31 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Hi,
Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> said:
At 07:40 AM 4/9/01 -0700, you wrote:
I'm not offended in the leats!
I think it's all very interesting even if it is OT. Electronic spying has
been going on since radio was invented.
As for other countries, I know our RAF planes regularly _very_ closely
escort Russian planes over the North Atlantic etc.
I would have thought the need for these flights would have declined since
there are so many satellites up there doing the same job, but I suppose
they also need to monitor signals such as those in the bands that are
absorbed by water vapour and CO2 which are increasingly used for secure
short range comms. Also you want to trigger their radar systems and
monitor them.
Anyway it never hurts to show the flag!
As for the radome, it probably contained an ordinary radar antenna
the details of which the Chinese could have got from "Janes Avionics"
but there's no substitute for getting your hands on the hardware...
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote:
Hmmm, good point. This is an international mailing list. I'll bet the
very intrusion of this discussion offends a good many people.
OT as hell but still it would be interesting to hear what some of the
non-US members think of it.
Our
people need our support now. Later is never in this game.
Our?
12:56 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Our?
Hmmm, good point. This is an international mailing list. I'll bet the
very intrusion of this discussion offends a good many people. 
2:24 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Our?
Hmmm, good point. This is an international mailing list. I'll bet the
very intrusion of this discussion offends a good many people.
2:52 p.m.
New subject: OT somewhat. China, our aircraft, delays.
Voted for Harry Brown. Couldn't agree with you more. Sorry we didn't
win, but we are growing.
Rapacious. Rare to have the chance to use the word. Good on on you.
Regards,
Jeff
In <3AD236AC.29652.19DAF507@localhost>, on 04/09/01
at 10:52 PM, "Lawrence Walker" <lgwalker(a)look.ca> said:
I agree, America should quietly shoulder the burden of world peace, so that
citizens of third world countries are not disturbed.
I've kept my peace til now and I can only hope that the above was in
jest but most of the world doesn't view the US and it's corporate
dictated policies as especially benign. Unless you've forgotten recent
history and gobble up the the spin doctors presentations on the
controlled media, the US is the most rapacious, self-interested, morally
bankrupt state, since Hitlers Germany.
Sorry all you "good ol' boys" but if you are going to take part in an
international forum, the bullshit you hear on CNN is no less tainted than
that on Chinas outlets, and only distinguished by its slickness.
Mike this reeks of "the white mans burden " of British colonial times
and is hardly less onorous with the parallels to the thousands who died
to further the profits of the likes of the East India Trading Company or
its US counterpart US Fruit. And it still continues. Please spare me
this BS on a list dedicated to old computers.
Our?
Hmmm, good point. This is an international mailing list. I'll bet the
very intrusion of this discussion offends a good many people. larry
Reply to:
lgwalker(a)look.ca
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
8 Apr
8 Apr
8:37 a.m.
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2:12 p.m.
Tony,
Ok, seems like we are on the same wave length. I agree with you.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Tony Duell wrote:
Tony,
Haven't read all of your message yet, but wanted to fire this off,
before I head out the door.
I don't blame someone so much for not wanting to learn, as much as I
dislike it when they don't respect it. For instance, I have friends
I think, perhaps, I wasn't particularly clear (my fault...).
I can fully understand when somebody doesn't want to learn a particular
thing. Heck, there are plenty of things I have no interest in learning
about. What I can't understand is somebody who has no interest in
learning anything.
And like you, I dislike it when people don't respect somebody else's
interests (even though they may not share them themselves).
Another issue is that if you take up a hobby like classic computing, you
are likely to run into problems from time to time. And IMHO, you should
then _want_ to learn whatever is needed to sort those problems. Perhaps I
am going a little too far, then...
-tony
8:53 a.m.
Quoting Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>uk>:
I'm actually going to get my first PDP11 this summer, and I'll be in a
situation similar to yours. There are many things that I need to learn,
much money to be spent (preparing its home, moving it, the electrician),
and much time to be used before I will be able to really get down and
dirty with the machine, but I am still unbelievably excited about it
all.
My sincerest thanks go to the list member who has made this possible for
me. You know who you are.
Quoting
Demon02554(a)aol.com:
Agredd 100%.
...
I can well remember my first PDP11. As I have said before, this was my
first complex minicomputer (and it is complex -- about 1000 TTL chips
in the CPU area alone), I had peripherals, the wrong memory board, and
no user manual. I really didn't have a clue what I was doing at the
start. But by spending many months (seriously) reading the schematic
diagrams, figuring out what the chips were and then how various
sections worked, I finally got it to run a program. It took a long
time, but that didn't bother me. just wondering....am i the only kid on this list?
It depends on your definition of 'kid'. I'm 22, but I am probably
near the young end of the distribution as well. The fact that we're
young, however, does not make us any less deserving of the pleasure
of exploring the history of computing through classic computers. I was learning about stuff I was interested it :-)
Yes. Though I said I "need to learn", I also very much want to learn.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu
9:42 a.m.
Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
I'm actually going to get my first PDP11 this
summer, and I'll be in a
situation similar to yours. There are many things that I need to learn,
much money to be spent (preparing its home, moving it, the electrician),
and much time to be used before I will be able to really get down and
dirty with the machine, but I am still unbelievably excited about it
all.
Jerome Fine replies:
I still can remember when I bought my first PDP-11. It was a VT103
box with a DSD 880/8 for the hard disk drive and floppy. I had already
used RT-11 for over a decade at that point, but could never cost justify
my own system.
My sincerest thanks go to the list member who has made
this possible for
me. You know who you are.
Have you decided which OS(s) you are going to run. If you need help with
RT-11, perhaps I can find some manuals for you. But they are very heavy.
Even if free, the shipping will cost a fair bit.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
10:37 a.m.
Quoting Jerome Fine <jhfine(a)idirect.com>om>:
Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
My original inroad to classic computing was the discovery of Unix many
years ago (well, many to me), so I am admittedly biased towards it.
However, I plan on trying out all the major OSes that ran on machines
like my future one(s), including RT11.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu
I'm actually going to get my first PDP11 this
summer
I still can remember when I bought my first PDP-11. It was a VT103
box with a DSD 880/8 for the hard disk drive and floppy. I had
already used RT-11 for over a decade at that point, but could never
cost justify my own system.
Have you decided which OS(s) you are going to run. If you need help
with RT-11, perhaps I can find some manuals for you. But they are
very heavy. Even if free, the shipping will cost a fair bit.
10:10 a.m.
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10:40 a.m.
Quoting Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>uk>:
It's just the risk of sudden death that scares me...
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu
the
electrician
That's one expense I would never have. I'd do the mains wiring
myself. After all, if I can't get the 3 wires of a mains cable the
right way round, what hope do I have when I've got the <mumble>
connections on the Unibus to sort out :-).
11:35 a.m.
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8 Apr
8 Apr
5:44 a.m.
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