A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1968 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000718/dd8a8026/at…

Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: And I agree with you, on no matter how uninteresting an item it is, if it can be fixed, it should be fixed. (on a related, but side note: I also share your opinion that if a classic computer can only be fixed with newer parts (a.k.a. not original timeline parts) it should be fixed and used). However, you seem to have a *lot* of useful tools that not the average "joe blow" would have. I wouldn't have a snowball's chance in Hades on repairing that transformer myself, and that monitor would've (sadly) become "dumpster fodder." I have the ability to burn most "mainstream" eproms that would be used in classic machines (from 2716's up to IIRC 27128 or 27256's) which I do know many other folks don't have the ability to do... So I think part of the "what would you fix vs. part out" question has a lot to do with what people actually have the ability to fix. That depends on the floppy drive... Most PeeCee drives are hard-wired (not jumpered) for most things like drive number, density & whatnot... so a lot of newer drives can't be used in a classic machine. IMHO it's very good that you'd choose to repair an older drive - I'm not nearly as good with repair as you, but in my defense - at least when I find an older (jumpered) drive that someone's going to toss [[especially if you can jumper the density as well, turning it into a 720K drive]], I'll rescue it usually mumbling something to the effect "gotta have a spare drive for the Atari ST/CoCo/etc..." BTW, I'd repair *any* drive I have if I had the knowhow... I have most of the tools you'd need (including 'scope) - except no alignment disks. IIRC, however, I *think* I have some 'scope waveforms on how to fix certain things on a CoCo floppy drive in the FD502 Technical Manual... but it's been years since I even *looked* at that. (and, of course, my CoCo floppy drive hasn't broken yet... ;-) Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it... :-P Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: Personally, I don't have a probe, but I do have a 'scope, (and I actually know how to use it...) but I do realize that others aren't so lucky... Of course, I also own a JCB backhoe... not too useful whatsoever for classic computers, but hey... how many other geeks do you know with one of those? ;-) While it's not an unusual tool on its own, I would think not that many folks into collecting classic computers would have one (especially if that collector centers on the software side of things and isn't as in-depth on hardware). Ditto on the lathe... Sure, but I've noticed that not everyone has a good "kludging" ability... Merchbergers, despite being from the shallow end of the gene pool WRT other things... ;-) I've been more interested in transformers lately... (especially since an "educated electrical contractor" said I'll *never* be able to set up & run a 288 VAC light on 120V garage wiring...) The best way to get me to do something is to tell me it *can't* be done. ;-) Any good books anyone could recommend? Most certainly -- and hopefully you'll [try to] teach your skills to your children (should you have any, of course), so your kids can help our kids fix things in the next generation, when parts are much more scarce... ;-) [[ An aside... I thanked my father a few weeks ago for teaching me none other than how to build/sharpen/adjust/fix chainsaws & chainsaw chains - something I thought I'd *never* use until I purchased my wife's parents farmstead... ]] Admittedly, I don't get my knickers in a knot if I can't save a common machine. Last weekend my wife was garage sale browsing - came across a C128/printer/paper/some common software (not sure if there was a drive). Wife called me, I offered (thru wife) $20. Lady wouldn't budge from $30. The computer stayed put. I do make an extra effort (including cash expenditures) to save things that are much rarer... a while back I acquired a Frank Hogg Labs CoCo Cartridge Expander module - No one else online wanted it... so I saved it. The person said that it might even be a prototype - he wasn't sure... but I sure like it! ;-) Anyone have info on that beastie? Personally, even if it is common, I always offer anything classic to others before I even think about the dumpster, unless it's big, heavy, and excepting exceptional folks like you, Tony, unrepairable. Like very common old VGA monitors... stuff like that. AAMAF, I'll have some stuff going up soon - I need to part ways with a few things I know I'll never have time for. Really common stuff, like 2 parted-out PCjrs which should make one good, working machine (including monitor & thermal printer) and I'll prolly give up the Atari 800xl I rescued over a year ago - still sitting in packing box I got it in. Full list later... I may actually get one PCjr running before offering it to the list, just for the fun of fixing... Anywho, the wifey called, wants me to go home. And I want to go, too! ;-) If anyone sees David Hasselhoff before the end of the day, wish him a happy birthday. ;-) 'Later, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

Tony Duell wrote: [someone else wrote:] [...] Surely any serious computer hobbyist, especially one who is a collector or preservationist, has at least the following: DVM, oscilloscope (even if just an old 5mHZ one to look for things like PSU ripple/spikes), soldering iron, logic probe, assorted hand tools and perhaps a logic analyzer. These are not things that the average hobbyist should be unlikely to have. I can't believe that any serious computer hobbyist would toss any thing like that in a dumpster - at the very least, something that's common and physically broken (e.g. - broken case, broken circuit board, etc.) - would at least salvage, or attempt to salvage, the components. Monitors, for example, have all sorts of interesting things in them like power-resistors useful for building and repairing other types of circuitry. Right, however, one should at least know what a schematic is and have a basic idea of how to interpret it, have a basic idea of how an operating system works (having at least read partway through the sources for a few different ones), know how to do some minimal machine work such as creating some very simple things at least from wood and plastic, know what an EPROM programmer is and at least be wanting to purchase one. Throwing it away is still wrong; there are plenty of people like you, not to mention hackers-in-training such as high-school kids still taking electronics classes, who would like to get their hands on that broken machine to hack and experiment with. Like you said, it's like solving puzzles... good for the mind, helps to prevent the onset of senility in one's later years. Anyway, surely there are at least some useable bits, from connectors to switches, wires and ICs to be found in those machines that some, oddly, toss out. Just makes it all the more fun, as this is stuff that everyone says can't be repaired. :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900

I'd say 90% of my stuff is done with a fluke DMM, home brew logic probe (TTL/cmos Hi/low/pulse type), good soldering iron, bench power supplies and basic hand tools. I have scopes, freq counters, signals sources but often thats not needed. My biggest tool if informations, my library and experience. Ye Olde junk box, mine is 35+ years deep. I thin it from time to time but old boards and the like are very handy for that one odd IC, transistor or whatever. Thinning out useless (or less useful) stuff is also an art that come from expereince. I only have so many CuFT available to store it and still have emory of whats there and where it is. ;) Programming does not require the knowledge of electronics and is generally removed from the realm of hardware. Hardware requires at least basic electricity, electronics and possibly some other theory to understand. With those basic enginering skills mastering others beomes natural. At one time to program a computer you had to be at least able to design and troubleshoot it! Granted that was back when but, it's not a lost skill. ;) Amen. Allison

Tony Duell wrote: I don't know that I'm qualified to comment on this, but.... Isn't programming included in the College courses that a hardware person would be taking? While a Software person doesn't have any hardware courses? Not having bothered with College I'm not sure, but I believe this is the case. I'm *far* from competent when it comes to electronics, but I did originally work as an Electrician before switching over to computers and Systems Administration. I do pretty good with non-Board level hardware, and I can do basic board level stuff, especially if I've got good enough doc's. The main reason I do any programming is it's the only way to get the computer to do what *I* want! This isn't to say that I *like* programming, because I don't. However, just about any computer platform I own has at least a couple languages that I can program it in (if nothing else there is BASIC). As for the original Repair/Replace question. It depends on what it is, what I've got for documentation, how interested I am in it, and if I have time to deal with it. Having the time to deal with it is becoming the biggest factor. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

Dwight Elvey wrote: I have one even better, I picked up a hardware diagnostic/emulator for the Z80! The guy originally wanted $20 for it and I was willing to pay it. When I told him what I was going to do with it he gave it to me for $5, gave me a Moto 68K eval board (circa 81) and offered me a 8086 diag/emu too (I had to turn him down on the 8086, too much to carry. He knew it was going to a good home. Boy have I made use of it, it has 64K RAM, a serial port for Intel Hex dump/load and does a great job of debugging assembly code (hex level). One day I'll d/l the ROMs from the device (for backup of course). Everything is TTl inside so it should be easy to keep working (or rig to repair). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, William von Hagen wrote: Is it a "computer" in the sense that we all generally agree to or is it a programmable calculator? Sounds interesting either way. Got pics? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details!

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, William von Hagen wrote: Until now I've only known Facit to have made calculators. I'd really like to see this. What year was it manufactured? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details!

Facit did an awful lot of computing stuff including Desktop Computers - AFAIR Z80 based systems. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

Tony Duell wrote: So? I picked software because the electronics component of 'A' level Physics bored me rigid. However, I now write software for embedded realtime systems, so I have to be able to read a schematic and use a logic analyser. Oddly enough, the company I work for doesn't put 'software', 'hardware' or 'mechanical' in the job titles of its engineers. I think the nature of the work demands individuals with the curiousity to cross boundaries. That's just _my_ career path, though. I can't imagine why a softie writing commercial software for PCs would need these skills. 1. They know where the real fun is. 2. Hardware is getting softer. 3. There's a big difference between writing a program and engineering a large software system. No doubt I should have sprinkled some smileys in the above text.