2 Feb
1999
2 Feb
'99
12:13 p.m.
On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, kstumpf(a)unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) wrote:
] ... To make matters even worse, the
] Classiccmp archive maintained by Kevan Heydon (many thanks man), also
] suffered from a technical glitch and needed to be restored. ...
With a little digging, I recently discovered that the classiccmp archive
is also available at washington.edu, where the list processor itself
keeps a copy. Here is the URL:
gopher://lists.u.washington.edu:70/11/public/classiccmp
It isn't as pretty or nicely indexed as Kevan's, but it *should* have
exactly the same articles that went through the list processor.
Another URL:
http://www.washington.edu/computing/listproc/
has instructions for using the list processor, all nicely HTML'd.
Cheers,
Bill.
PS. My thanks to Kevan too!
2 Feb
2 Feb
12:31 p.m.
On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote:
On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, kstumpf(a)unusual.on.ca (Unusual
systems) wrote:
] ... To make matters even worse, the
] Classiccmp archive maintained by Kevan Heydon (many thanks man), also
] suffered from a technical glitch and needed to be restored. ...
Has this been discussed before? Can Kevan, or anyone help him, get a
search engine on that stuff. It's a bear finding anything in that
archive.
Or am I lame and just missed seeing a serch mechanism?
-- Steve
3:55 p.m.
On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Stephen Dauphin wrote:
On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote:
Well, I've picked up messages from the list through Yahoo and Altavista.
Including some of my own. I'm of seriously mixed emotions concerning
web-accessible mailing list archives (Usenet archives are different --
you _know_ that everything you type is being archived by somebody), as
I've traditionally considered mailing lists "semi-private". Since I
belong to a few where I damned well know there are lurkers with
intentions far from honorable due to their status as government goons.
(Although it can be a dangerous job -- some govgoons have been corrupted
by libertarian thinking and thereby ruined for their former profession).
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, kstumpf(a)unusual.on.ca
(Unusual systems) wrote:
] ... To make matters even worse, the
] Classiccmp archive maintained by Kevan Heydon (many thanks man), also
] suffered from a technical glitch and needed to be restored. ...
Has this been discussed before? Can Kevan, or anyone help him, get a
search engine on that stuff. It's a bear finding anything in that
archive.
Or am I lame and just missed seeing a serch mechanism? 
3:52 p.m.
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote:
Well, I've picked up messages from the list
through Yahoo and Altavista.
Including some of my own. I'm of seriously mixed emotions concerning
web-accessible mailing list archives (Usenet archives are different --
you _know_ that everything you type is being archived by somebody), as
I've traditionally considered mailing lists "semi-private".
So, why use your real identity on "published" lists like this one? I
stopped doing that after I found some email I wrote in *1985* web archived
and search engine indexed.
-- Doug
4:40 p.m.
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Doug wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote:
My name is mine (well, it was also my father's and grandfather's, as
there wasn't much originality in my family for a while), and I've never
written anything I'm ashamed of in over fifteen years on Usenet and
mailing lists. (There are some things I'm _embarrassed_ by, but that's
a different category). But on some lists I have been known to show
sympathy to "criminals" who never harmed anybody other than themselves
with chemicals or plants yet get sentenced to many decades of prison, to
"criminals" who made the mistake of defending themselves from thieves or
rapists, to "criminals" who offerred an honest product at an honest price
when the product was consensual sexual activity (I have a beloved
ex-sister-in-law in that last category).
--
Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take
the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
Well, I've picked up messages from the list
through Yahoo and Altavista.
Including some of my own. I'm of seriously mixed emotions concerning
web-accessible mailing list archives (Usenet archives are different --
you _know_ that everything you type is being archived by somebody), as
I've traditionally considered mailing lists "semi-private".
So, why use your real identity on "published" lists like this one? I
stopped doing that after I found some email I wrote in *1985* web archived
and search engine indexed.
4:50 p.m.
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote:
My name is mine (well, it was also my father's and
grandfather's, as
there wasn't much originality in my family for a while), and I've never
written anything I'm ashamed of in over fifteen years on Usenet and
mailing lists. (There are some things I'm _embarrassed_ by, but that's
a different category).
Who said anything about shame? The fact is that this list is comprised of
casual conversations. I don't like having my casual conversations
recorded, but I do like having perls of wisdom archived (and these
inevitably come from other list members).
So, I compromise. A pseudonym frees you, to some extent, from worries
about having your casual conversations recorded or otherwise monitored. On
the internet, nobody know's you're really a Dalmatian. Don't let your
spots show. Arf.
ObCC: I just picked up an old mag with a cover story about Squee, a simple
Berkeley robot from the early 1950's. There wasn't enough detail in the
article to replicate Squee, but I think I can mimic the look and behavior
pretty well with my MindStorms kit. Squee follows a steady light, scoops
up a "nut" and then follows a strobe light back to the "nest" to drop
off
the nut.
-- Doug
1:59 a.m.
New subject: Spam
Just curious if anyone else on this list is getting hit with a barrage of
badly done spam from overseas?
4:04 a.m.
Who said anything about shame? The fact is that this
list is comprised of
casual conversations. I don't like having my casual conversations
recorded, but I do like having perls of wisdom archived (and these
inevitably come from other list members).
Me_Too(TM) don't feel comfortable with a _public_ archive of this
list. I considere this more privat - and for the pe(a)rls in here,
I made up two archives (_on_my_hard_disk_) - one where every pice
is stored, and one where I put the very genuine things. So I have
any possible search option (fast and local) and privacy (i hope).
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
3:42 a.m.
As the creator of the web archive I feel I should reply...
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Hans Franke wrote:
Me_Too(TM) don't feel comfortable with a _public_ archive of this
If other people are of the same opinion then I will take down the web
archives. I can always use the 170MB (and now growing at a rate of about
12MB a month) of disk space they take at the moment. Instead of cluttering
the list send mail to me directly at kevan(a)heydon.org and I will count the
votes.
list. I considere this more privat - and for the
pe(a)rls in here,
I made up two archives (_on_my_hard_disk_) - one where every pice
is stored, and one where I put the very genuine things. So I have
any possible search option (fast and local) and privacy (i hope).
I also tend to keep post that I think will be usefull (which happens to be
most of Tony Duells posts) in a mail folder. I have also been keeping
entire threads with a thought to extracting the pearls of wisdom into web
pages.
It is much less work to archive the entire list than it is to manually
extract particular bits of information. It is also easy to let the major
search engines trawl the list archive to allow searching.
--
Kevan
Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/
5:36 a.m.
I'm un happy with public archives as they tend to get address farmed and
as is I'm getting too much junk mail that suggests a data farming from at
elast one other list I'm now inactive(read only) in.
Allison
5:49 a.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help (was: Collecting computers
Upon the date 02:36 PM 2/3/99 -0500, allisonp(a)world.std.com said something
like:
I'm un happy with public archives as they tend to get address farmed and
as is I'm getting too much junk mail that suggests a data farming from at
elast one other list I'm now inactive(read only) in.
FWIW, since I changed ISP's back in October, I have not had _any_ spam or
such garbage whatsoever. I love it!!! I've posted here often so it seems
that spambots may not have dredged addresses from our archive (at least
since last Oct. sometime.)
When I post to NG's I make darn sure I have my email addr. altered so that
those danged spambots don't get it. I use c_fandt(a)net_sync.net, which works
quite well.
Regards, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
5:49 a.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help
If we really wanted to get this discussion rolling, we could debate
whether anyone had the right to take the archives and include
them on a CD with a "Profit From Old Computers The EBay Way" book.
- John
8:40 a.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, John Foust wrote:
If we really wanted to get this discussion rolling, we
could debate
whether anyone had the right to take the archives and include
them on a CD with a "Profit From Old Computers The EBay Way" book.
What!? Did this actually occur?
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always hasslin' the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
9:10 a.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Sam Ismail wrote:
Not yet, but Marvin is reviewing my proofs. We're also doing a monthly
magazine, and Tony has agreed to pose for a centerfold.
-- Doug
If we really
wanted to get this discussion rolling, we could debate
whether anyone had the right to take the archives and include
them on a CD with a "Profit From Old Computers The EBay Way" book.
What!? Did this actually occur? 
10:31 a.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help
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9:48 a.m.
New subject: Ebay for fun and profit
Sam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, John Foust wrote:
Advertisement
Profit From Old Computers the Ebay Way
by many
This compilation of postings from the Classic Computer Listserver is filled
with valuable information. Just a few of the many topics include:
O Is Ebay a good way to sell classic computers?
O Yes it is, but don't tell anyone
O Value is what people are willing to pay, and how to get them to pay more.
O The advantages of putting *RARE* somewhere in the title description
O Using the Search engine for maximum efficiency
Yes, this is just a few of the many topics covered in this soon to be
released book, cd, newsletter, and other means of spaming, er,
distribution. The comments contained in this work is not available at your
local store ... yet unless we find out that will make us more money. Read
all the raw, unedited, and frequently hot comments on selling the Ebay way.
Available soon.
If we really wanted to get this discussion
rolling, we could debate
whether anyone had the right to take the archives and include
them on a CD with a "Profit From Old Computers The EBay Way" book.
What!? Did this actually occur?
4 Feb
4 Feb
7:19 a.m.
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote:
I'm un happy with public archives as they tend to get address farmed and
as is I'm getting too much junk mail that suggests a data farming from at
elast one other list I'm now inactive(read only) in.
So maybe the solution here is to filter out all the email addresses. I
think mhonarc can do this.
--
Kevan
Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/
3 Feb
3 Feb
10:32 p.m.
As the creator of the web archive I feel I should
reply...
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Hans Franke wrote:
> Me_Too(TM) don't feel comfortable with a _public_ archive of this
If other people are of the same opinion then I will
take down the web
archives. I can always use the 170MB (and now growing at a rate of about
12MB a month) of disk space they take at the moment. Instead of cluttering
the list send mail to me directly at kevan(a)heydon.org and I will count the
votes.
What about puting the pages within a restricted area, and the
password is supplied with the acknowledge message of the lists
registration ? So it would be 'restricted' to people that have
the list also (or at least had it at one time). So the privacy
would be simmilar to the list itself.
> list. I considere this more privat - and for the
pe(a)rls in here,
> I made up two archives (_on_my_hard_disk_) - one where every pice
> is stored, and one where I put the very genuine things. So I have
> any possible search option (fast and local) and privacy (i hope).
I also tend to keep post that I think will be usefull
(which happens to be
most of Tony Duells posts) in a mail folder. I have also been keeping
entire threads with a thought to extracting the pearls of wisdom into web
pages.
It is much less work to archive the entire list than
it is to manually
extract particular bits of information. It is also easy to let the major
search engines trawl the list archive to allow searching.
What about set up your own search engine, just for the CC-pages ?
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
4 Feb
4 Feb
7:39 a.m.
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Hans Franke wrote:
What about puting the pages within a restricted area, and the
password is supplied with the acknowledge message of the lists
registration ? So it would be 'restricted' to people that have
the list also (or at least had it at one time). So the privacy
would be simmilar to the list itself.
This can easily be done.
What about set up your own search engine, just for the
CC-pages ?
As I have said in a previous post, the machine it runs on would not be
able to cope with a local search engine on it.
--
Kevan
Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/
5 Feb
5 Feb
1:58 a.m.
> What about puting the pages within a restricted
area, and the
> password is supplied with the acknowledge message of the lists
> registration ? So it would be 'restricted' to people that have
> the list also (or at least had it at one time). So the privacy
> would be simmilar to the list itself.
This can easily be done.
I would prefer this before altering mails or snip of addresses.
> What about set up your own search engine, just
for the CC-pages ?
As I have said in a previous post, the machine it runs
on would not be
able to cope with a local search engine on it.
Shure ? less than a 486/33 with 16 MB ? We've such a old guy
running as web service (some 2000 pages) and with a search
engine on top and all is going fast enough. OS is Linux.
For the CC-search i think we cann accept some seconds to wait .)
Servus
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
8 Feb
8 Feb
12:44 a.m.
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Hans Franke wrote:
The problem here is that I suspect I will get flooded with emails
requesting the password. I don't have the time for this or the regular
attention to my email for this to work.
> What
about puting the pages within a restricted area, and the
> password is supplied with the acknowledge message of the lists
> registration ? So it would be 'restricted' to people that have
> the list also (or at least had it at one time). So the privacy
> would be simmilar to the list itself.
This can easily be done.
I would prefer this before altering mails or snip of addresses.
3 Feb
3 Feb
5:23 a.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help (was: Collecting computers - the
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11:35 a.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help (was: Collecting computers - the
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Why is having a lurker on the mailing list any
different from having it
archived? Either way we have no control on who gets what we post.
It's the difference between somebody overhearing your conversation (and
possibly deciding to record it) and somebody automatically publishing your
conversation and making it available to countless readers for who knows
how many years.
I like the idea of a "no archive" header, similar to the way Usenet (and
DejaNews) handles this issue, but it doesn't bother me that much since 10
years from now when I'm President of the US, all of this nonsense I spew
won't be traceable to me!
-- Doug
11:45 a.m.
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noon
New subject: web archive & listproc help (was: Collecting computers - the
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Oh, I like the archive too. But I like the *individual* control something
like a "no archive" header would give you. I didn't mean to suggest that
the default should be "no archive".
I agree it's a valuable service and I applaud Kevan, but I also sympathize
with those who worry about slimey email address harvesting spammers, the
possibility of retribution for unpopular views, and the general sense of
surprise one has when finding an old "publication" quoted out of context
10 years after the fact.
-- Doug
I like the
idea of a "no archive" header, similar to the way Usenet (and
DejaNews) handles this issue, but it doesn't bother me that much since 10
I like the classiccmp archive. If you want to hide it, then go ahead
(although IMHO hiding it won't be that successful, due to the fact that
anyone can join the list and thus discover where it is). But please keep
it active. 
2:54 p.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help (was: Collecting computers - the
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Doug wrote:
Oh, I like the archive too. But I like the
*individual* control something
like a "no archive" header would give you. I didn't mean to suggest that
the default should be "no archive".
I agree it's a valuable service and I applaud Kevan, but I also sympathize
with those who worry about slimey email address harvesting spammers, the
possibility of retribution for unpopular views, and the general sense of
surprise one has when finding an old "publication" quoted out of context
10 years after the fact.
An electronic archive of this list would be an incredibly useful research
tool for those trying to preserve old computers, given that lots of useful
information would be contained therein. As for spammers, munging all
email addresses in the archive would significantly decrease the threat.
Finally, Murphy says that if you're going to be quoted out of context,
it'll happen whether or not there's a public archive -- but if such an
archive exists, it would be trivial to determine the context of any such
quotes.
I've done research in the Cornell archives before, so I've become rather
accustomed to full archival. I get annoyed when records from 1890 have
been destroyed, either maliciously or due to neglect, and I'd think that
researchers will feel the same way a century from now -- wouldn't you, in
their place?
Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home
bsa3(a)cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them."
http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998
3:27 p.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help (was: Collecting computers - the
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Brad Ackerman wrote:
An electronic archive of this list would be an
incredibly useful research
tool for those trying to preserve old computers, given that lots of useful
information would be contained therein.
An archive of this list *is* a useful resource:
http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/
As for spammers, munging all email addresses in the
archive would
significantly decrease the threat.
Sure, or just omit email addresses entirely. What will future researchers
care about our email addresses?
And what will future researchers care about this particular meta thread?
The archive is a Good Thing. But it raises some issues:
1) It's mostly noise. Fix: use a search engine.
2) It has no search engine. Fix: index often with altavista. Better fix:
add a local search engine *and* index with altavista.
3) Nobody new to the list knows it exists. Fix: add it to the FAQ and
list intro.
4) Nobody new to the list knows their words are being archived and
indexed. Fix: (3) above. Better fix: (3) + some user-controllable
mechanism to keep your words out of the archive.
5) Spam, retribution, etc. Fix: omit or munge email addresses.
6) Nobody has time to do any of this stuff. Fix: find a cure for sleep.
-- Doug
10:07 p.m.
New subject: FA: S-100 SBC-2650 CPU board
For Auction: Signetics-2650 based CPU board for S-100 BUS.
Full copy of manual, schematics and 2650 tech reference included. This
board is the same as used by the wonderful S-100 machine on my Weird
Computing Machines site (the one running a software emulator of 8080 so that
it might run Microsoft BASIC :). Please visit the following URL for pics
and info...
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=63594364
No reserve, once again.
A
--
adavie(a)mad.scientist.com
visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html
a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool
Site!?
4 Feb
4 Feb
7:36 a.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help (was: Collecting computers - the
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Doug wrote:
Sure, or just omit email addresses entirely. What will future researchers
care about our email addresses?
If this would satisfy people then it can be done.
1) It's mostly noise. Fix: use a search engine.
7:29 a.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help (was: Collecting computers - the
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Doug wrote:
I agree it's a valuable service and I applaud Kevan, but I also sympathize
with those who worry about slimey email address harvesting spammers, the
Some of the stupid ones actually advertise themselves via the browser
header and thus you can filter them out in the web server. Obviously the
clever ones just look like Netscape or IE.
It has to be said that I haven't got any of the stupid hervesters filtered
out because I don't think it will do any long term good.
--
Kevan
Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/
7:26 a.m.
New subject: web archive & listproc help (was: Collecting computers - the
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Why is having a lurker on the mailing list any different from having it
archived? Either way we have no control on who gets what we post.
This is a very valid point. I am sure that the spam people will have
already thought of this as a way to get valid email addresses. It was
often the case that once subscribed to an email list you could request a
list of all the subscribers. Now this is very rare and the subscription
list is blocked to everybody, but it is not a lot of work ( a few line
python/perl script) to extract addresses from messages and then discard
the body of the message.
--
Kevan
Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/
7 Feb
7 Feb
2:29 a.m.
New subject: Museum of HP calcs CD-ROM shipping ...
Hi,
Thought I'd let ya'll know that Dave Hicks is now shipping his
"Museum of HP Calculators" CD-ROM set. This is a two-disk
set that has the entire contents of his Web site, plus
40 Meg of so of additional high-resolution images,
copies of the manuals for nearly all the HP calculators that
are featured in the Museum, and copies of many of the
program manuals for HP's programmable calculators. The manuals
are in Acrobat PDF format. It is also worth noting that
Dave secured permission from HP to re-publish these manuals,
so the CD-ROMs have copyright notices for both Dave's original
stuff and the HP manuals.
I know that several of those on the list are interested in
the HP9100 & HP98xx series machines - I provided Dave the
scans of the HP9100, HP9810, HP9815, and HP9830 operating
manuals, and the manuals for three of the common 9830
ROM modules. Someone else provided the HP9820 manual and
some HP9100 programs. There's a bunch of HP-41 stuff
in the set, and some HP-71B stuff, too I think.
Dave tells me that the total content of the set is around
900 Megabytes, and he's charging $25 plus shipping for
the set. You can get a complete listing of what's contained
on the CD-ROMs, and ordering instructions, from Dave's
web site at http://www.hpmuseum.org
Given that an original HP9100 manual alone sold for over $60
on eBay recently, I think this set is a real bargain for
those who are primarily interested in the information in
the manuals.
Regards,
Alex
Calculator History & Technology Archive Web Page
http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm
9449
days inactive
9455
days old
35 comments
19 participants
participants (19)
-
adavie＠mad.scientist.com -
ai705＠osfn.org -
aknight＠mindspring.com -
allisonp＠world.std.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bsa3＠cornell.edu -
cfandt＠netsync.net -
ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
doug＠blinkenlights.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jpl15＠netcom.com -
kevan＠heydon.org -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu