21 Apr
2007
21 Apr
'07
8:43 p.m.
I could swear there was a discussion recently (like in the last week)
about 11/34 consoles and KY11 documentation. Or maybe I dreamed that
up.
Anyway, it prompted me to try and figure out why my 11/34 console was
blank. The serial monitor works fine, as does the cpu, but the "digits"
in front are blank and only the run and dc-ok lights are on.
(this is a symptom described in the ky11 documenation - thank you very much
to whomever scanned that in)
Has anyone debugged a dead KY11 ? Any hints?
I looked at the docs and schematics and followed the wise words on page 8-2
titles "M7859 FAILURES"
I have +5 and -9 on the 8008 as well as clock(s). But the "INTR" line
(pin 18) is stuck high. I assume this is the problem.
[aside - I plugged one of the cables (J3) in backward and got the display to
show all zeros', but the scan rate was *very* slow, light 10hz; I found
that interesting]
STOP L and TS1 L are inactive, as are all the S0,S1 & S2 on the 8008.
Interestingly ping 14 is wiggling. I don't have a databook with with
an 8008 in it and that pin is not labeled.
I have only just started, but I'd thought I'd ask if anyone has done
this recently. It's fun debugging ttl. It's all so *slow* and manageable ;-)
-brad
22 Apr
22 Apr
4:51 p.m.
I've never worked on a KY11, but I might have to one day... And I've got
a minimal 8008 data sheet in front of me.
I looked at the docs and schematics and followed the
wise words on page 8-2
titles "M7859 FAILURES"
I have +5 and -9 on the 8008 as well as clock(s). But the "INTR" line
(pin 18) is stuck high. I assume this is the problem.
[aside - I plugged one of the cables (J3) in backward and got the display to
show all zeros', but the scan rate was *very* slow, light 10hz; I found
that interesting]
STOP L and TS1 L are inactive, as are all the S0,S1 & S2 on the 8008.
Interestingly ping 14 is wiggling. I don't have a databook with with
an 8008 in it and that pin is not labeled.
Pin 14 is 'Sync' 'It indicates the begining of a machine cycle"
What is 'ready' -- pin 17 -- doing?
Alas my data sheet, which is really only an introduction, doesn't give
what the Sn lines should be doing. Are yours all stuck in the same state,
if so what state?
Now, Intr -- pin 18 -- is active high, and an input. If it's stuck high,
that might be confusing thigs. What drives it, and why is it high?
-tony
7:50 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Pin 14 is 'Sync' 'It indicates the begining of a machine cycle"
What is 'ready' -- pin 17 -- doing?
The state appears to be "wait". Intr (pin 18) is in fact low.
The "rdy" signal (ping 17) is high. I discovered that if I ground the
"rdy" signal (ping 17), then I see the state output change.
I suspect the cpu is halting for some reason.
I did try and capture the state of the Intr pin from power up and I'm
not sure it ever went up (but I was in a hurry and not sure I actually
had the scope in the right mode to capture it - edge detect, rising
edge, 3v, but I'm not sure the time scale was correct). The 8008 has a
bit of setup which is done and the logic counts 16 clocks before
asserting Intr, sync'd with the clock, which is reset when it hits
a certain cpu state. I'm not convinced this is working.
I think the next step is to connect a logic analyzer to the data bus,
sync and state pins. The nice thing is there are only 16 signals...
If I can watch it fetch I can figure out why it is halting.
The maint manual talks about using a delayed sweep to see how far it
gets but I think a logic analyzer will get betters results faster.
-brad
8:11 p.m.
Did anyone check ACLO or DCLO...
On 4/22/07, Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
--
--
d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com
Pin 14 is 'Sync' 'It indicates the begining of a machine cycle"
What is 'ready' -- pin 17 -- doing?
The state appears to be "wait". Intr (pin 18) is in fact low.
The "rdy" signal (ping 17) is high. I discovered that if I ground the
"rdy" signal (ping 17), then I see the state output change.
I suspect the cpu is halting for some reason.
I did try and capture the state of the Intr pin from power up and I'm
not sure it ever went up (but I was in a hurry and not sure I actually
had the scope in the right mode to capture it - edge detect, rising
edge, 3v, but I'm not sure the time scale was correct). The 8008 has a
bit of setup which is done and the logic counts 16 clocks before
asserting Intr, sync'd with the clock, which is reset when it hits
a certain cpu state. I'm not convinced this is working.
I think the next step is to connect a logic analyzer to the data bus,
sync and state pins. The nice thing is there are only 16 signals...
If I can watch it fetch I can figure out why it is halting.
The maint manual talks about using a delayed sweep to see how far it
gets but I think a logic analyzer will get betters results faster.
-brad
8:38 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I've never worked on a KY11, but I might have to one day... And I've got
a minimal 8008 data sheet in front of me.
Try this: http://www.8008chron.com/8008um.pdf
-brad
23 Apr
23 Apr
3:49 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker
Sent: zondag 22 april 2007 2:44
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: KY11 - ever debug one?
I could swear there was a discussion recently (like in the
last week) about 11/34 consoles and KY11 documentation. Or
maybe I dreamed that up.
Yup, but it was only the wiring to the console :-)
Anyway, it prompted me to try and figure out why my
11/34
console was blank. The serial monitor works fine, as does
the cpu, but the "digits"
in front are blank and only the run and dc-ok lights are on.
[...snip...]
-brad
I worked on the M7859, a year ago, so things are hazy already.
See www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/cpu/options/m7859/troubleshoot.html
I will check this evening if I still have the printout of the
schematics with all kind of notes scribbled on it ...
- Henk, PA8PDP.
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12:34 p.m.
At 8:43 PM -0400 4/21/07, Brad Parker wrote:
I could swear there was a discussion recently (like in
the last week)
about 11/34 consoles and KY11 documentation. Or maybe I dreamed that
up.
I think I was one of the instigators :-) Sorry I'm late...
Anyway, it prompted me to try and figure out why my
11/34 console was
blank. The serial monitor works fine, as does the cpu, but the "digits"
in front are blank and only the run and dc-ok lights are on.
From a much earlier thread, not last week's, I had a not terribly
similar problem with mine. The power switch on the front would
seemingly turn things on/off but I had no lights. Turned out I had
-15V and +20V but no +5V. I was actually missing one of the power
regulators. Fixing that caused much joy!
[aside - I plugged one of the cables (J3) in backward
and got the display to
show all zeros', but the scan rate was *very* slow, light 10hz; I found
that interesting]
Do you mean the 20-conductor cable at J1? If it's really J3, my
comments are not applicable. IIRC, there is no J3 on the KY11-LB.
I had trouble with this cable (J1) to the M7859. (I'm using a BA11-K
box.) Shooting the lines on the cable turned up a damaged cable.
Replacing this resulted in reliable panel operation.
Good luck,
John
1:19 p.m.
Still debugging. I checked all the obvious things.
DC LO L is high on the bus, TP1 shows clock. Voltages appear nominal.
I put some logic analyzer leads on the 8008 and it resets correctly and
INTR goes away. (I have a nice picture if anyone wants it)
I see it enter state T1, T1I, T2 and then WAIT. But RDY is high. This
seems odd. It should go to T3.
Also, my read of the KY11B docs say that I should not have J2 & J3
connected unless I'm in maint mode. (so pulling RDY high should be fine)
Should the KY11 work (as the docs say) with only J1 connected? Anything
obvious I am missing?
-brad
Brad Parker
Heeltoe Consulting
+1-781-483-3101
http://www.heeltoe.com
2:11 p.m.
Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Brad Parker
Verzonden: ma 23-04-2007 19:19
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Onderwerp: Re: KY11 - ever debug one?
[...snip...]
I will have a look later, I am out the rest of the evening ...
Also, my read of the KY11B docs say that I should not
have J2 & J3
connected unless I'm in maint mode. (so pulling RDY high should be fine)
Should the KY11 work (as the docs say) with only J1 connected? Anything
obvious I am missing?
-brad
FWIW, I have J2 and J3 always connected. If you want, I can try and
look what the 11/34 "does" if J2 and J3 are disconnected (on M7859).
- Henk.
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24 Apr
24 Apr
2:53 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker
Sent: maandag 23 april 2007 19:20
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: KY11 - ever debug one?
[...snip...]
Also, my read of the KY11B docs say that I should not have J2
& J3 connected unless I'm in maint mode. (so pulling RDY high
should be fine)
Should the KY11 work (as the docs say) with only J1
connected? Anything obvious I am missing?
-brad
Yes, the 11/34 boots RT11 and runs fine, J2 and J3 disconnected.
And since I must enter 165020 LAD START to startup the diagnostic
code in the PROM on the M9312, I can tell that the console is also
working fine while J2 and J3 are disconnected.
I have J2 and J3 normally always connected, and never had problems.
- Henk.
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contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure
under applicable law.
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Thank you for your co-operation.
23 Apr
23 Apr
1:09 p.m.
Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Brad Parker
Verzonden: zo 22-04-2007 02:43
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Onderwerp: KY11 - ever debug one?
Anyway, it prompted me to try and figure out why my
11/34 console was
blank. The serial monitor works fine, as does the cpu, but the "digits"
in front are blank and only the run and dc-ok lights are on.
Has anyone debugged a dead KY11 ? Any hints?
[...snip...]
-brad
Ok, I still have the printset with all scribbles that I made while working on it.
First, how do you boot your 11/34? Do you use the keypad to enter a start
address? I'd like to know, because that eliminates a lot of possible problems!
(and useless writing here).
Ok, only looking at the display stuff.
1. Check DCLO. It is used! (see drawing KY-1)
2. DC OK Led will always be on, as long as +5V is present.
3. Check pins 1, 2, and 7 of the 7447 and the DRIVE # L signals, they should
have a repetitive pulse.
FIY, the connector pinout is as follows on the console board (ASCII art):
__________________________________
|
| 19 17 15 13 11 9 7 5 3 1 <---- row of pins near edge of the board
| 20 18 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 2 <---- row of pins to the "center" of the
board
|
^card edge
If you do not know if the keypad works, check if the 8008 is running.
There should be pulses on D0..D7 and S0-S1-S2. INTR will be active (high,
IIRC) if DC LO is active, or the state on S0-1-2 indicates STOP (from the
timing states decoder E23, pin 2).
Can you tell a bit more what the console does, or does not?
- Henk.
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24 Apr
24 Apr
6:27 a.m.
"Gooijen, Henk" wrote:
FIY, the connector pinout is as follows on the console
board (ASCII art):
__________________________________
|
| 19 17 15 13 11 9 7 5 3 1 <---- row of pins near edge of the board
| 20 18 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 2 <---- row of pins to the "center" of the
bo
ard
|
^card edge
The docs say pin 1 is on the left side of the console board and the left
side of the KY11 (facing the chips). Or at least they say the "red stripe"
should be on the left. (this is J1)
can you confirm that's how you have it wired?
ps: thanks very much for trying it with J2/J3 disconnected!
-brad
7:01 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker
Sent: dinsdag 24 april 2007 12:27
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: KY11 - ever debug one?
"Gooijen, Henk" wrote:
ERROR!! Sorry.
The ASCII pinout is *not* of the console board, but of the M7859!
I have the "scribbled" printset with me. You are correct on J1
on the console board, pin #1 is near the edge.
Typical (...), in my notes, I have just one comment near the 7442
(on KY-1), saying pin #2 (KY1 STOP L) gets never active ...
Is there some info written in the M7859 manual? In the end of that
manual is also a source code listing of the 8008 assembler code.
Useful, if you put the logic analyser on the databus, to see what
the cpu is executing. Perhaps that can explain why you get WAIT.
Is the 8008 executing the states you mentioned just once?
I don't know the 8008, but what if E16/E17 is defective. Is the
8008 putting out an address, reading data? Is that data correct?
- Henk.
- Henk.
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contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure
under applicable law.
If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this
message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by
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Thank you for your co-operation.
FIY, the connector pinout is as follows on the
console board
(ASCII art):
__________________________________
|
| 19 17 15 13 11 9 7 5 3 1 <---- row of pins near
edge of the board
| 20 18 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 2 <---- row of
pins to the
"center" of the bo
ard
|
^card edge
The docs say pin 1 is on the left side of the console board
and the left side of the KY11 (facing the chips). Or at
least they say the "red stripe"
should be on the left. (this is J1)
can you confirm that's how you have it wired?
ps: thanks very much for trying it with J2/J3 disconnected!
-brad
23 Apr
23 Apr
1:20 p.m.
Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Brad Parker
Verzonden: zo 22-04-2007 02:43
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Onderwerp: KY11 - ever debug one?
I forgot one thing.
As you said that you had the connector the wrong way around plugged in,
I would check the drivers (7417 on drawing KY-7) ... is the input signal
also present on the output? You might have destroyed one of those ...
The console has 2 fastons (tabs?) for the +5 V power, but +5V is also on
that flatcable, pin 19. Plugging it in the wrong way gives +5 on pin 2.
I do not see much harm there, as pin 2 goes to TB1 "BOOT SW".
But check what connections you make between the M7859 and the console
if that connector was plugged in the wrong way ... it might give clues!
- Henk.
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6300
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14 comments
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participants (5)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
dundas＠caltech.edu -
henk.gooijen＠oce.com -
pechter＠gmail.com