22 May
1998
22 May
'98
6:31 a.m.
> Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have
been two distinct series,
> called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K, Series 0, no-floppy IBM
PC is
> alleged to have sold at auction in the UK for over UKP 10,000 ....and my
> intuition (but no more than that) detects an institutional buyer. (And not
> auction like eBay -- auction like Christie's.)
what were the differences between the two? I've got a 16KB model
somewhere with cassette interface; it's got a floppy controller in it
too, so I don't know whether that implies that the BIOS has been
re-burnt at some point to handle this (it's funny joining this list -
it's scary how much of this stuff I would have known at one point and
have since forgotten!!).
I seem to remember scrapping a good twelve or thirteen of these boxes a
few years back working for a firm specialising in bringing old computer
gear back to life (it was amazing how much strange stuff from the 70's
and early 80's I saw pass through that place!). The local scrap dealer
would only pay about 2 pounds for each system, so the whole lot just
went in the skip out the back of the warehouse... it's funny how much
perfectly good equipment I saw get slung out just because there wasn't
space for it and we had several piles of spares, seems a shame
considering that someone somewhere would have made use of it!!
back on topic though, what cassette unit could be connected up to the
original PC machines? Was it a custom IBM unit only (similar to the way
the C64's only accept Commodore tape decks), or could anything be used
if a cable was made up?
cheers
Jules
22 May
22 May
11:08 a.m.
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3:52 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
The pinout of the PC cassette connector is the same as
that on a TRS-80,
and the same cable works. My guess is this is not a coincidence - IBM
probably intended PC owners to go to the local Tandy/Radio Shack and buy a
cassette recorder and cable.
Or maybe it was a standard interface for the time, like RS-232 is supposed to
be....
> the C64's only accept Commodore tape decks),
or could anything be used
> if a cable was made up?
My understanding of Commode-Ore is that there is a chip within the cassette
interface that allows the pooter to talk to the cassette drive. Of course
Commodore (like many others, Apple comes to mind) was very good at keeping
most of their stuff proprietry in some (even small) way to dissuade the owners
from buying aftermarket.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
7:06 p.m.
Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
No, it wasn't a standard at any time. Apple, Commode, Atari cassette
systems were totally different. Since the TRS-80 cassette interface
was the most reliable around at the time, IBM adapted it for their
system along with the DIN pinout -- I think they actually paid Tandy
for the permission though I don't recall specifics.
RS-232 _is_ a standard. The DB-25 connector is part of it. IBM DB-9
serial connectors are _not_ RS-232 whatever anybody says.
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
The pinout of the PC cassette connector is the
same as that on a TRS-80,
and the same cable works. My guess is this is not a coincidence - IBM
probably intended PC owners to go to the local Tandy/Radio Shack and buy a
cassette recorder and cable.
Or maybe it was a standard interface for the time, like RS-232 is supposed to
be.... 
7:40 p.m.
Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
snip
RS-232 _is_ a standard. The DB-25 connector is part of it. IBM DB-9
serial connectors are _not_ RS-232 whatever anybody says.
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
Which brings up one of the 'bones' that I have to pick with IBM [as if
they were interested in listening to me. ;-(]
RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'. Any time that you saw a piece of
equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232
connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few
pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more
expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to
be able to afford it.)
Which brings us to todays state of affairs!
DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or
maybe something else.
Chuck
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond,
he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer
and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649)
While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955-
-----------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940
1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad(a)gamewood.net
Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803
8:14 p.m.
Charles A Davis wrote:
> RS-232 _is_ a standard. The DB-25 connector is part of it. IBM DB-9
> serial connectors are _not_ RS-232 whatever anybody says.
Which brings up one of the 'bones' that I have
to pick with IBM [as if
they were interested in listening to me. ;-(]
RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'. Any time that you saw a piece of
equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232
connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few
pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more
expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to
be able to afford it.)
Which brings us to todays state of affairs!
DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or
maybe something else.
Yes, the time you see (and smell) the result of a Radio Shack Daisy
Wheel Printer II (something I thought was unkillable) plugged into the
DB-25 video connector (carrying power) of an AT&T (Olivetti) 6300, you
want vendors to use better labels. (The aroma of doped silicon being
turned into silicon dioxide [sand] is pungeant, and you never know
which of the evaporating materials will later be discovered to be a
virulent carcinogen -- during a democrat administration, probably all
of them, including a few that were never near the computer.]
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
10:27 p.m.
Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
(The aroma of doped silicon being
turned into silicon dioxide [sand] is pungeant, and you never know
which of the evaporating materials will later be discovered to be a
virulent carcinogen -- during a democrat administration, probably all
of them, including a few that were never near the computer.]
Not to mention the fact that the doping is usually iodine or arsenic, usually
turned to a vapor when burned. Yum.....
Aren't Germanium diodes for the garden?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
23 May
23 May
2:21 p.m.
May I respectfully request that, when a thread evolves into a different
topic we change the subject header? It would save a lot of time when
scanning messages to decide which to read. I get about 400 emails a day,
and accurate subject headers make it a little less daunting task.
Thanks,
R.
--
Robert Arnold
Managing Editor
The MonkeyPool
WebSite Content Development
http://www.monkeypool.com
Creator and Eminence Grise
Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire.
muahahahahaaaaa
http://www.warbaby.com
Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies.
24 May
24 May
2:31 a.m.
New subject: Changin subjects (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...)
Rax wrote:
May I respectfully request that, when a thread evolves into a different
topic we change the subject header? It would save a lot of time when
scanning messages to decide which to read. I get about 400 emails a day,
and accurate subject headers make it a little less daunting task.
Well, editing the headers can slow you down when you're on a roll (or
a rant). Plus, some newsreaders deal with it poorly when you're
following a thread -- I know Netscrape isn't that skilled (and we're
not talking the Windows version, this is a Linux box).
Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies.
Why? They don't look any more stupid than on anybody else.
Dreadlocks on _anybody_ looks like crap.
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
22 May
22 May
8:55 p.m.
On Sat, 23 May 1998, Charles A Davis wrote:
RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'. Any
time that you saw a piece of
equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232
connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few
pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more
expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to
be able to afford it.)
DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or
maybe something else.
It's simple:
DB-25 male: serial port
DB-25 female: parallel port
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 05/11/98]
23 May
23 May
2:55 a.m.
Sam Ismail wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 1998, Charles A Davis wrote:
Yup!!! Does sound simple --- EXCEPT RS-232 uses BOTH the male and
female plugs. One for each of the TWO types of RS-232 euipment. You only
needed to stock M/F (extension type) cables to be able to hook up
anything. M/M and F/F were 'Null Modem' cables.
Chuck
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond,
he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer
and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649)
While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955-
-----------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940
1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad(a)gamewood.net
Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803
RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'.
Any time that you saw a piece of
equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232
connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few
pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more
expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to
be able to afford it.)
DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or
maybe something else.
It's simple:
DB-25 male: serial port
DB-25 female: parallel port
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
3:31 a.m.
Sam Ismail wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 1998, Charles A Davis wrote:
I've got a gagload of equipment that disagrees with you. At least the
connectors on my TRS-80 Model II are labelled in english instead of
foolish little "universally understandable" hieroglyphs. (My ass if
they're "universally understandable" -- those fewking pictures never
mean a thing to me, I'm handicapped by early literacy).
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'.
Any time that you saw a piece of
equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232
connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few
pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more
expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to
be able to afford it.)
DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or
maybe something else.
It's simple:
DB-25 male: serial port
DB-25 female: parallel port 
3:31 a.m.
Sam Ismail wrote:
>
> On Sat, 23 May 1998, Charles A Davis wrote:
>
> > RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'. Any time that you saw a piece
of
> > equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232
> > connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few
> > pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_
more
> > expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to
> > be able to afford it.)
> >
> > DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or
> > maybe something else.
>
> It's simple:
>
> DB-25 male: serial port
>
> DB-25 female: parallel port
I seem to rember that the port gender changed at RS232C time and before
RS232C the earlier RS232's used male or femail depending on the vendor.
I also seem to remember that Mail vs Female depended on DTE or DCE designations.
The gender may have been optional.
This caused Perkin-Elmer (Concurrent) terminals to have a different gender
then DEC due to being PRE-RS232C.
Bill
7:04 a.m.
On Sat, 23 May 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
No, no, no. I meant on the IBM PC and its ilk you can basically be
assured that male is serial, female is parallel. I wasn't referring to
any computer but.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 05/11/98]
It's
simple:
DB-25 male: serial port
DB-25 female: parallel port
I've got a gagload of equipment that disagrees with you. At least the
connectors on my TRS-80 Model II are labelled in english instead of
foolish little "universally understandable" hieroglyphs. (My ass if
they're "universally understandable" -- those fewking pictures never
mean a thing to me, I'm handicapped by early literacy).
9:54 a.m.
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2:16 p.m.
On Sat, 23 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
Well, it is reasonably logical, and means that, physical interference
aside, you can plug your external modem directly into the 25-pin serial
port. The cable simply puts it in a more convenient location.
- don
It's
simple:
DB-25 male: serial port
DB-25 female: parallel port
Can you please explain, then, why all my modems have female connetors?
Surely I shouldn't connect them to a parallel port ?
(Yes, I know about DTE vs DCE. I'm just making sure you do :-))
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-tony
8:49 a.m.
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24 May
24 May
12:49 p.m.
> Any time that you saw a piece of
> equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232
> connection.
Not entirely true - in fact, probably a dangerous assumption! The D style
connectors date WAY back, when computers used tubes!
Main problem is that the Amphenol connector is too
wide to properly fit
on a standard IBM card bracket (yes, OK, they should have made the
bracket wider...)
Can you fit two DB connectors on a card bracket? That may be one reason
they moved the RS-232 to the DE style.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
4:18 p.m.
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4:43 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Agreed. The maximum voltage for a D connector (at least a decent one) is
something like 500V. A lot higher than most people expect.
Exactly. The serial/parallel adapter came out with the AT - and that was
the first use of the DE-9 serial connector. And no, you couldn't fit 2
DBs on a bracket. You can _just_ fit a DA and a DB on the same bracket -
I've seen multifunction cards that do that. Problem is, the IBM case has
a lip (so you don't scratch your hand on the board fixing screws) that's
not in most clones. Getting the plugs into one of those cards on a real
XT is interesting...
The older 500v capable D connectors had solid pins though of a heavier guage. Has
anyone noticed that many of them are lightweight guage and in some cases hollow?
This drops the voltage and current capacity way down. I just repinned the
connector on a VT 130 terminal for a local business and noticed the difference in
the old pins and the new ones. You bend a new one and it breaks, and old one can
sometimes be straightened unless it's kinked (and then cracks).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> Any time that you saw a piece of
> equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232
> connection.
Not entirely true - in fact, probably a dangerous assumption! The D style
connectors date WAY back, when computers used tubes! Main
problem is that the Amphenol connector is too wide to properly fit
on a standard IBM card bracket (yes, OK, they should have made the
bracket wider...)
Can you fit two DB connectors on a card bracket? That may be one reason
they moved the RS-232 to the DE style.
25 May
25 May
9:57 a.m.
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24 May
24 May
5:37 p.m.
Agreed. The maximum voltage for a D connector (at
least a decent one) is
something like 500V. A lot higher than most people expect.
And then there are the high current pins found in some odd applications -
pins the size of pencil erasers.
There is another variation found on some Telco stuff that has a shield
over the face of the connector, with little holes for the pins to pass
thru.
Somewhere I have a chart that has all of the configurations (probably
according to the U.S. military) - there are a great deal of weird ones
that never find thier way into home computers.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
22 May
22 May
10:24 p.m.
Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
RS-232 _is_ a standard. The DB-25 connector is part
of it. IBM DB-9
serial connectors are _not_ RS-232 whatever anybody says.
Evidentally the male or female issue of the 25 was ignored too. Since most
IBM/compats use the male on the machine, I still see older machines with female
25's for serial ports, such as on the back of the Sr. Partner I have here. I know
many other machines have prts that are stated to be in compliance with the RS-232
standard but only in signal compatibility, not connector type.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
8:34 p.m.
On Fri, 22 May 1998, Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote:
My understanding of Commode-Ore is that there is a
chip within the cassette
interface that allows the pooter to talk to the cassette drive. Of course
Commodore (like many others, Apple comes to mind) was very good at keeping
most of their stuff proprietry in some (even small) way to dissuade the owners
from buying aftermarket.
Well, if you're alluding to the Disk ][, this was not an effort by Apple
to be "non-standard", but was basically due to the brilliant hacks of
Steve Wozniak in adding an inexpensive and simple disk controller to the
Apple ][. And as far as aftermarket goes, I can't think of even one drive
that was made to work on any Commodore that wasn't manufactured by
Commodore, but I myself have at least five examples of disk drives made
for the Apple by random no name manufacturers.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 05/11/98]
23 May
23 May
7:54 a.m.
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22 May
22 May
4:48 p.m.
Julian Richardson wrote:
back on topic though, what cassette unit could be
connected up to the
original PC machines? Was it a custom IBM unit only (similar to the way
the C64's only accept Commodore tape decks), or could anything be used
if a cable was made up?
A Radio Shack CTR-41 with a standard TRS-80 cassette cable. IBM never
got into the audio business. (There were other cassette decks that
worked, but that was the cable -- after all these years I've forgotten
the stock number but it is still in the inventory though a particular
store might have to make a special order).
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
9555
days inactive
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25 comments
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