4 Apr
2011
4 Apr
'11
4:34 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I wouldn't put 'Wanton Destruction 40'
anywhere near the floppy drive
(or
any other aprt of a classic computer). The stuff we get in the UK
contains some quite long-chain waxy hydrocarbons whcih will gum
things up
after a short while.
I second that. WD-40 and 5.56 and the likes may be good for cars and
motorbikes, but they should be kept well away from computers, or for
that matter, cameras.
The later ones are
riveted, so you can just rmeove the springs, soak the assmebly in
solvent, then work the parts back and forth and wipe off the old
grease
as it appears. I find propan-2-ol (isporpanol) woeks well for this.
Interesting, propanol is an alcohol and shouldn't be very good at
dissolving grease, in theory. I would have thought white spirit would be
better.
/Jonas
4 Apr
4 Apr
11:39 p.m.
On 4 Apr 2011 at 13:34, jonas at otter.se wrote:
Interesting, propanol is an alcohol and shouldn't
be very good at
dissolving grease, in theory. I would have thought white spirit would
be better.
Perc is even better; washes the grease and oils right off and leaves
a bone-dry surface.
Smells kinda purty too, duh...
--Chuck
5 Apr
5 Apr
11:05 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
They're not that good on some paets of cars either :-)
As you may have gathered from my OT posts last week, I am somewhat
interested in telephones. I was looking around some websites the other
day amd one the subject of rotarry dials it said 'Do not use WD40. It
will leave a sticky film that will atttract dust, Then the whole dial has
to be stripped'. Having just taken a Western Electric dial totally apart
(ven the staked parts), I can undersntad why this is not somethign to do
lightly..
Incidentally, I have a 35mm SLR that had a simple fault (a spring became
unhooked under the baseplate). Unfortuantely, the previous owner,
noticing tha thte slow shutter speeds didn't work, sprayed WD40 into evey
part of it. The result is that everything wil lahve to come apart (even
the exposure meter movement pivots are gummed up). What would ahve ben a
10 minute repair is goign to take several days.
I also know somebody who sprayed WD40 into a slightly sticking Kurta
(almost on-topic ;-)). The result was a totally sitcking Kurta.
I wouldn't put 'Wanton Destruction
40' anywhere near the floppy drive
(or
any other aprt of a classic computer). The stuff we get in the UK
contains some quite long-chain waxy hydrocarbons whcih will gum
things up
after a short while.
I second that. WD-40 and 5.56 and the likes may be good for cars and
motorbikes, but they should be kept well away from computers, or for
that matter, cameras. The later ones are
riveted, so you can just rmeove the springs, soak the assmebly in
solvent, then work the parts back and forth and wipe off the old
grease
as it appears. I find propan-2-ol (isporpanol) woeks well for this.
Interesting, propanol is an alcohol and shouldn't be very good at
dissolving grease, in theory. I would have thought white spirit would be
better. 
6 Apr
6 Apr
5:11 a.m.
On Tue, 5 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
White spriit would probalby be OK too. But most greases will disolve in
alcohols, And propan-2-ol has the advantage that it;s the recomended
cleaner for most disk drive parts, so it doesn't do any damage if it gets
where it shouldn't. It also doesn't attack many plastics.
The only place I've seen this is in the form of "Rubbing Alcohol" which
tends to be 65-70% concentration. Is that sufficient and/or safe to use
on electronic parts? Can anyone in the states recommend a good source for
larger (e.g. gallon) quantities of 99% propanol? I doubt it can be
shipped by mail or UPS, so I'm hoping to find some local source.
Others have recommended Perc. Unless I'm confusing that with something
similar-sounding, it's seriously nasty stuff. Back when flux remover
actually worked, it was perc based. The EPA has clamped down on the use
of perc, although I think it's still a component of "dry" cleaning.
Lastly, what are folks' opinions on the use of "Triflow" spray silicone
lubricant for things like the Lisa load mechanism? I've used it in the
past to service CD and cassette load mechanisms without any obvious
problems.
Steve
--
The later ones are
riveted, so you can just rmeove the springs, soak the assmebly in
solvent, then work the parts back and forth and wipe off the old
grease
as it appears. I find propan-2-ol (isporpanol) woeks well for this.
Interesting, propanol is an alcohol and shouldn't be very good at
dissolving grease, in theory. I would have thought white spirit would be
better. 
11:45 a.m.
On 06/04/2011 13:11, Steven Hirsch wrote:
The only place I've seen this is in the form of
"Rubbing Alcohol" which
tends to be 65-70% concentration. Is that sufficient and/or safe to use
on electronic parts? Can anyone in the states recommend a good source
for larger (e.g. gallon) quantities of 99% propanol?
It might be good enough, but "rubbing alcohol" can be many things, many
of which are not isopropanol. 99% isopropanol won't stay 99% for very
long unless very carefully stored; it slowly absorbs water from air and
ends up about 90%.
Others have recommended Perc. Unless I'm
confusing that with something
similar-sounding, it's seriously nasty stuff. Back when flux remover
actually worked, it was perc based. The EPA has clamped down on the use
of perc, although I think it's still a component of "dry" cleaning.
Over here (UK) all the common flux removers we used to use were based on
1-1-1-TCE (trichloroethane). Not quite as horrible as PERC
(tetrachloroethylene) in many ways but now banned, while (to my slight
surprise) PERC isn't.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
1:27 p.m.
On 6 Apr 2011 at 19:45, Pete Turnbull wrote:
Over here (UK) all the common flux removers we used to
use were based
on 1-1-1-TCE (trichloroethane). Not quite as horrible as PERC
(tetrachloroethylene) in many ways but now banned, while (to my slight
surprise) PERC isn't.
A trade name here was/is "Chlorothane" (not to be confused with
"chlorethane"). Great stuff, as chlorinated hydrocarbons go, fairly
safe.
It was banned as part of the Montreal Protocol because of its ozone-
depleting properties, not because of its toxicity. When I was
younger and more foolish, I used to wax the shop floor by dissolving
a glob of paste wax in a couple of gallons of chlorothane and then
swabbing it all over the floor. Buff after the solvent has
evaporated.
What do garage mechanics use for automotive degreaser in the
countries where Perc is banned?
--Chuck
1:33 p.m.
On 4/6/11 3:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 6 Apr 2011 at 19:45, Pete Turnbull wrote:
What do garage mechanics use for automotive degreaser in the
countries where Perc is banned?
I just bought a gallon pail of Berryman carb cleaner. I was shocked
when I opened it and read the directions - after soaking parts, they
must be RINSED IN WATER. It's closer to Simple Green than real carb
cleaner.
I dunno what this crap is, but it ain't the Berryman's I know and love.
Doc
2:01 p.m.
On 6 Apr 2011 at 16:39, William Donzelli wrote:
Thank you--I was about to return that methyl chloroform was level 3
carcinogen "not classifiable as to human carcinogenicity".
Far safer than the gasoline that gets sloshed around by the millions
of barrels every day...
--Chuck
It is a level
2A carcinogen, as well as being an irritant.
Clarification - tetrachloroethylene is level 2A, trichloroethane is
level 3. Both are irritants 
2:06 p.m.
On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, Pete Turnbull wrote:
Ah, that's correct. I had the two crossed-up. Trichlor is completely
banned for consumer uses, AFAIK. Perc is not something I want to come
into contact with either.
The only good thing I can say about trichlor is that it actually removed
flux. The alcohol based cleaners are a bad joke.
Steve
--
On 06/04/2011 13:11, Steven Hirsch wrote:
Interesting. I'll give it a try, then.
The only place I've seen this is in the form
of "Rubbing Alcohol" which
tends to be 65-70% concentration. Is that sufficient and/or safe to use on
electronic parts? Can anyone in the states recommend a good source for
larger (e.g. gallon) quantities of 99% propanol?
It might be good enough, but "rubbing alcohol" can be many things, many of
which are not isopropanol. 99% isopropanol won't stay 99% for very long
unless very carefully stored; it slowly absorbs water from air and ends up
about 90%. Others have
recommended Perc. Unless I'm confusing that with something
similar-sounding, it's seriously nasty stuff. Back when flux remover
actually worked, it was perc based. The EPA has clamped down on the use of
perc, although I think it's still a component of "dry" cleaning.
Over here (UK) all the common flux removers we used to use were based on
1-1-1-TCE (trichloroethane). Not quite as horrible as PERC
(tetrachloroethylene) in many ways but now banned, while (to my slight
surprise) PERC isn't. 
3:34 p.m.
On 06/04/11 22:06, Steven Hirsch wrote:
The only good thing I can say about trichlor is that
it actually removed
flux. The alcohol based cleaners are a bad joke.
Oh, too true -- I found this out to my cost while I was building the
DiscFerret boards. "Electronics grade" isopropyl barely did a thing to
the flux without a long soak and a good scrub with a toothbrush,
followed by a rinse in fresh IPA.
Now what *does* work well is Chemtronics' Flux-Off, which AIUI is
acetone-based. Spray it on and the flux starts dripping off the board.
There's a brush attached to the end of the aerosol can, but it's only
really of use for reducing the amount of F-O you need.
Only problem is, it's about ?8 for a 200ml can (!)
What I really want is something that comes in N-litre drums or tin cans,
evaporates a bit slower than Flux-Off but faster than IPA, and removes
Multicore's rosin-based fluxes. Haven't found anything like that yet,
though :(
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
4:51 p.m.
On 06/04/2011 22:06, Steven Hirsch wrote:
On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> Over here (UK) all the common flux removers we
used to use were based
> on 1-1-1-TCE (trichloroethane). Not quite as horrible as PERC
> (tetrachloroethylene) in many ways but now banned, while (to my slight
> surprise) PERC isn't.
The only good thing I can say about trichlor is that
it actually removed
flux. The alcohol based cleaners are a bad joke.
Yes, and that's why (looks round to check for eavesdroppers) I keep a
secret supply of the good stuff at the very back of the shelf.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
11:05 p.m.
I can rember my Father who was an apprentice refridgeration engineer in the
1930's saying that they used trichloroethane (AKA Trike) to degrease
compressor parts. The only problem was that when heated it turned into
Posgege gas as used in the first world war and they all smoked in those
days!
Asked what they did. He said if they felt a bit woozy they went outside for
a while and sat on a bench in the local graveyard just across the road!
Rod Smallwood
?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull
Sent: 06 April 2011 19:45
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration
On 06/04/2011 13:11, Steven Hirsch wrote:
The only place I've seen this is in the form of
"Rubbing Alcohol" which
tends to be 65-70% concentration. Is that sufficient and/or safe to use
on electronic parts? Can anyone in the states recommend a good source
for larger (e.g. gallon) quantities of 99% propanol?
It might be good enough, but "rubbing alcohol" can be many things, many
of which are not isopropanol. 99% isopropanol won't stay 99% for very
long unless very carefully stored; it slowly absorbs water from air and
ends up about 90%.
Others have recommended Perc. Unless I'm
confusing that with something
similar-sounding, it's seriously nasty stuff. Back when flux remover
actually worked, it was perc based. The EPA has clamped down on the use
of perc, although I think it's still a component of "dry" cleaning.
Over here (UK) all the common flux removers we used to use were based on
1-1-1-TCE (trichloroethane). Not quite as horrible as PERC
(tetrachloroethylene) in many ways but now banned, while (to my slight
surprise) PERC isn't.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
7 Apr
7 Apr
12:18 a.m.
On 7 Apr 2011 at 7:05, Rod Smallwood wrote:
Asked what they did. He said if they felt a bit woozy
they went
outside for a while and sat on a bench in the local graveyard just
across the road!
Yes, that's an accepted response for minor phosgene exposure. Lest
you think that Trike is nasty when burned, consider that almost any
chlorinated hydrocarbon as well as most chlorinated plastics such as
PVC will produce phosgene when burned. That's also one of the
reasons that flame refrigerant leak detectors are no longer used--
burning (actually decomposing) Freon in a hot flame produces
phosgene.
--Chuck
12 Apr
12 Apr
1:17 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 3:18 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 7 Apr 2011 at 7:05, Rod Smallwood wrote:
And evolution of HCl, Benzene and Toluene is why you shouldn't put PVC
into a laser cutter
(http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/104024117/abstract?CRETRY=1&…)
-ethan
... if they felt a bit woozy they went outside
for a while and sat on a bench...
Yes, that's an accepted response for minor phosgene exposure. ?Lest
you think that Trike is nasty when burned, consider that almost any
chlorinated hydrocarbon as well as most chlorinated plastics such as
PVC will produce phosgene when burned.
5003
days inactive
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16 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk -
doc＠vaxen.net -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
jonas＠otter.se -
pete＠dunnington.plus.com -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
rodsmallwood＠btconnect.com -
snhirsch＠gmail.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com