18 Mar
2011
18 Mar
'11
1:59 p.m.
Hi guys,
Does anyone have a copy of the OEM manual (or service manual) for the
NEC FD1165 disc drive variant which had the "G9NYB" controller board?
I've got one of these on the bench, which I'm trying to attach to the
DiscFerret. The jumper settings don't make sense, and the location and
function diagrams in the manual on Bitsavers are for a drive with a
G9NYF controller board...
Does anyone have a jumper map or a copy of the manuals for this thing?
Thankfully the power connector was labelled -- thank you NEC!
Unfortunately the two DIL terminator resistor packs have been snaffled,
and I'd rather like to know if the G9NYB used the same 150-ohm resistor
pack the G9NYF used before I go installing a bunch of MR25 resistors in
their place (seeing as I haven't got any 150R x8 DIL packs)
Thanks,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
18 Mar
18 Mar
2:08 p.m.
On 18 Mar 2011 at 20:59, Philip Pemberton wrote:
Hi guys,
Does anyone have a copy of the OEM manual (or service manual) for the
NEC FD1165 disc drive variant which had the "G9NYB" controller board?
Do I assume that you looked on bitsavers and that the maintenance
manual didn't give you want you need?
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/nec/FD1165_maint.pdf
--Chuck
4:26 p.m.
On 18/03/11 21:08, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Yup, that manual is for a different PCB...
For a start, the data connector is a 50-pin IDC, not a card-edge
connector. Secondly, the jumpers are scattered all over, and not in the
places shown in the manual.
I've got these jumpers on the board:
RX -- 2x3 block labelled "0", "1", "2", "3" (set
to 0)
DX -- 2x3 block labelled "0", "1", "2", "3" (set
to 0)
VF -- wire link across "0" and centre pad
VO -- wire link across "M" and centre pad
RD -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 2)
HD -- two pads, linked with wire
RGT -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1)
AUT -- 1x3 block labelled "T", "S" (no jumper cap)
DL -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1)
DR -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1)
DH -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1)
SC -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1)
SR -- three pads labelled "1", "2", open-circuit
RG -- 1x3 block labelled "1", "2" (set to 1)
The manual lists:
DX -- Drive Select
HL -- Head Load. 1=use Head Load input, 2=use Select input
RX -- Radial Ready, 1=gated by drvsel, 2=always available
SS -- Side Select. 1=use SIDESEL pin, 2=use DIRECTION pin
PR -- Write Protect. PR1=inhibit recording when WP active,
PR2=don't enforce WP
FR -- FR1 = disable File Unsafe. FR2 = enable File Unsafe.
DH/DL/DR -- Door Lock:
DR -- DR1 = READY from controller enables Door Lock
DL -- DL1 = (INUSE & DRVSEL) enables Door Lock
DH -- DH1 = Lock Hold (generated by drive) enables Door Lock
US -- In Use. Solder pads. US1=enable INUSE signal
RD -- Read Data. RD1=source from read amp,
RD2=source from VFO pulse shaper
BU, BS -- Busy Lamp mode
On during head load -- BU2,BS2
On during drive select -- BU2, BS1
On during In Use -- BU1, no BS jumper
Which leaves:
RX -- different implementation
VF -- not listed in the manual
VO
HD
RGT
AUT
SC
SR
RG
And these jumpers which are in the manual but not on my drive:
HL
SS
PR
FR
US
BU, BS
"Something isn't quite right..."
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
Does anyone
have a copy of the OEM manual (or service manual) for the
NEC FD1165 disc drive variant which had the "G9NYB" controller board?
Do I assume that you looked on bitsavers and that the maintenance
manual didn't give you want you need?
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/nec/FD1165_maint.pdf
5:04 p.m.
On 18 Mar 2011 at 23:26, Philip Pemberton wrote:
Yup, that manual is for a different PCB...
For a start, the data connector is a 50-pin IDC, not a card-edge
connector. Secondly, the jumpers are scattered all over, and not in
the places shown in the manual.
Do you have any idea what system the drive is from? The 1165s were
used in a lot of Japanese PC98-type industrial equipment, for
example.
--Chuck
5:28 p.m.
On 19/03/11 00:04, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Do you have any idea what system the drive is from?
The 1165s were
used in a lot of Japanese PC98-type industrial equipment, for
example.
From what I've been told, it came from a "Samurai" 8086 based machine,
possibly an "S16". Google provided no useful hits, and I couldn't see
anything on Bitsavers.
The drive pinout appears to be pretty non-standard. It doesn't match up
with the standard edge connector at all... Shorting pins 49 and 50, for
instance, makes the "drive active/heads loaded" LED light... The
connector is a 3M 3433, which is an IDC-like connector with two
polarising pins, neither of which is in the centre of the connector. To
make an IDC crimp plug fit, you have to shave off the polarising pin...
Somehow I get the feeling this is going to end with me reverse
engineering the pinout with a multimeter, and hoping this board uses the
same programmed 8048 that the other board variant uses...
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
6:20 p.m.
On 19 Mar 2011 at 0:28, Philip Pemberton wrote:
Somehow I get the feeling this is going to end with me
reverse
engineering the pinout with a multimeter, and hoping this board uses
the same programmed 8048 that the other board variant uses...
The only mention of the S16 that I can find is from an August, 1983
"New Scientist" article--something about the London Computer
Marathon, in which the S16 and the Olivetti M20 were the 16-bit
finalists. A note is made that the S16 is imported, presumably from
Japan.
Given the early date, I wonder if the S16 wasn't a re-badged NEC
PC9801E?
What color is the faceplate? If it's not black, but beige, that
would go toward confirming my suspicions.
--Chuck
6:43 p.m.
On 19/03/11 01:20, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Given the early date, I wonder if the S16 wasn't a
re-badged NEC
PC9801E?
What color is the faceplate? If it's not black, but beige, that
would go toward confirming my suspicions.
Yep -- beige faceplate, with a dark grey latch handle.
The text on the drive's model number plate is:
MODEL FD1165 S
P/N 134-100390-121-0 [121 is handwritten]
SERIAL NO 162774 MFG DATE 1982/12 [12 is handwritten]
[ NEC logo ] Nippon Electric Co. Ltd.
MADE IN JAPAN
To the right of the model number plate:
21215 (stamped)
REV 010 ("010" handwritten, possibly "0/0")
Thanks,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
7:46 p.m.
On 19 Mar 2011 at 1:43, Philip Pemberton wrote:
On 19/03/11 01:20, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I found a mention on a Japanese PC collector's website:
http://www2.ucatv.ne.jp/~m_okubo.moon/98fdd/fd1165a.html
Scroll down a bit and you'll see your FD1165S. He seems to be saying
that this was part of the PC8881 external drive box used with the
early PC9801 (which had no internal drives), but originally marketed
for the 8-bit PC8801:
http://park10.wakwak.com/~pinevill/image/nec/PC8881.JPG
Maybe someone has a manual for this thing...
--Chuck
Given the early date, I wonder if the S16
wasn't a re-badged NEC
PC9801E?
What color is the faceplate? If it's not black, but beige, that
would go toward confirming my suspicions.
Yep -- beige faceplate, with a dark grey latch handle.
The text on the drive's model number plate is:
MODEL FD1165 S
P/N 134-100390-121-0 [121 is handwritten]
SERIAL NO 162774 MFG DATE 1982/12 [12 is handwritten]
[ NEC logo ] Nippon Electric Co. Ltd.
MADE IN JAPAN 
19 Mar
19 Mar
2:15 a.m.
On 19/03/11 02:46, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I found a mention on a Japanese PC collector's
website:
http://www2.ucatv.ne.jp/~m_okubo.moon/98fdd/fd1165a.html
Scroll down a bit and you'll see your FD1165S. He seems to be saying
that this was part of the PC8881 external drive box used with the
early PC9801 (which had no internal drives), but originally marketed
for the 8-bit PC8801:
http://park10.wakwak.com/~pinevill/image/nec/PC8881.JPG
Maybe someone has a manual for this thing...
Google-fu FTW!
This page lists a few pinouts for the drives in the PC-8881 enclosure,
including a YE-Data drive (the YD180-1603)... the pinout for which is
suspiciously similar to my NEC drive:
http://ematei.web11.jp/kakolog/200302/r060036_.htm
Scroll down about half-way to a post by "Ludolph", or the later post by
"HAMLIN". Google Translate (JP -> EN) may prove useful... :)
Which via a search for "YD180-1603" leads us to this little gem:
http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~ytera/FD_AN-YE.PDF
A Japanese PDF containing pinouts and pin descriptions for:
* Shugart-style ("ANSI pinout") drives (YD180-1601)
* YE-Data custom pinout (YD180-1600)
* "VFO" pinout (YD180-1603)
And what is pin 49 on the YD180-1603 pinout? Why, it's HEAD LOAD of
course...
I think it's a fair guess the FD1165S uses the "VFO" pinout (which means
I need to make another adapter.. grr). I'd still like a manual or jumper
list, though...
Cheers,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
7:07 p.m.
Nailed it!
Turns out this drive has an onboard data separator. This is enabled by
default...
Solution: flip the RD jumper from position 2 to position 1, thus
disabling the separator.
"And that makes me... King of the Lab!"
There is still one "quirk" -- the drive seems to AND the Track-0 sensor
output with STEP. The DiscFerret picks up the TRACK0 pulse and stops the
seek, but because TK0 is inactive when SeekRecalibrate() checks the
status register, it thinks the seek failed...
I suspect I'll have to add another bit to the status register to deal
with this... ugh.
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
8:05 p.m.
On 20/03/11 02:43, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Back in the old days, you stayed away from Japanese
8" floppy drives
because of their weirdness. And NEC was one of the weirdest.
Lovely....
It would have been nice to find this out *before* I bought the drive... :-/
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
8:23 p.m.
On 20 Mar 2011 at 3:05, Philip Pemberton wrote:
It would have been nice to find this out *before* I
bought the
drive... :-/
Occasionally, I get a request for the 3.5" version of the 8" NEC
drive that you've got for some PC98-based CNC controller. They're
pretty rare on the ground and have all of the weird signals. You
can't just take a Teac FD235HG and swap one in.
They're not cheap when you find them.
--Chuck
20 Mar
20 Mar
6:18 p.m.
On 20/03/11 03:23, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Occasionally, I get a request for the 3.5"
version of the 8" NEC
drive that you've got for some PC98-based CNC controller. They're
pretty rare on the ground and have all of the weird signals. You
can't just take a Teac FD235HG and swap one in.
They're not cheap when you find them.
I'll bet!
It seems the "track 0 sensing quirk" is a little more complex than I
originally thought. The old DiscFerret microcode (anything pre-rev
0x0021) would only check the state of TRACK0 after making STEP active.
You were guaranteed at least one STEP pulse, even if TRACK0 was
active... "Oops."
This seems to upset the 8048 controller on the NEC drive. While it won't
block the step operation, it will totally screw up the track 0 sensing
until the head is stepped out a few tracks, then back to TK0. There also
seems to be some significant delay between STEP going active and TK0
becoming valid -- far more than any other drive I have...
The workaround, of course, is to check the state of TK0 both while STEP
is active, and while it's inactive. If it goes active when STEP is
inactive, then the drive is just slow to respond... :)
I've added the Step Termination Reason bit too -- this is a bit in the
STATUS1 register which is set if the last seek was aborted due to
reaching track 0.
Now to convert my scribbly paper notes on the FD1165S into Wiki markup,
and hunt down a Famicom Disk System drive and discs.....
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
18 Mar
18 Mar
2:16 p.m.
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote:
Hi guys,
Does anyone have a copy of the OEM manual (or service manual) for the NEC
FD1165 disc drive variant which had the "G9NYB" controller board?
I've got one of these on the bench, which I'm trying to attach to the
DiscFerret. The jumper settings don't make sense, and the location and
function diagrams in the manual on Bitsavers are for a drive with a G9NYF
controller board...
Does anyone have a jumper map or a copy of the manuals for this thing?
AFAIK, all 8" drives used 150-ohm termination. I have a couple of FD1165s
here that also fail to match the bitsavers doc. However, I don't recall
it being all that difficult to figure things out.
What specifically isn't lining up? Generally the acronyms and
abbreviations in the jumper silkscreen remain the same across revisions.
Steve
--
19 Mar
19 Mar
12:24 p.m.
Thankfully the power connector was labelled -- thank
you NEC!
Unfortunately the two DIL terminator resistor packs have been snaffled,
Or maybe it wasn't the last drive on the cable when it was last used.
and I'd rather like to know if the G9NYB used the
same 150-ohm resistor
pack the G9NYF used before I go installing a bunch of MR25 resistors in
their place (seeing as I haven't got any 150R x8 DIL packs)
They're almost certainly 150 ohm. The only thing to work out is thwe
connections.
The termination resisotrs go from a signal to Vcc (+5V). I would start by
buzzing out the +5V line to the p[ins on the terminator socket. If you
find all one column are +5V, then the terminator is 8 idividual
reissotrs. If +5V goes to pin 16 only, then it's more likely to be 15
commoned resistors (with the common to pin 16). The latter are much
harder to find in my experience (having just had to obtain a 16 pin DIL
pack of 15 commoned 220R resistors...).
If you find that pin 16 goes to +5V nd pin 8 is ground, then it's quite
possible that the rrsitor pack is a potential divider type network (say
330R to +5C and 220R to ground on each of the rrmaining 14 pins). Such
networks are rare in floppy drives btu common in other devices.
I wouldn;t solder any resisotrs to the PCB. Yo umay well want to remove
the terminator at some point. Use a DIL header plug if you can't get he
right DIL network.
-tony
Thanks,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
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