30 Apr
2009
30 Apr
'09
3:19 p.m.
Philipp Hachtmann <hachti at hachti.de> wrote:
Hi,
I just try to get a VT05 working with my PDP-8/e.
Having a tuned KL8E interface at 2400 baud.
I need fill characters....
Found a KL8E.PA in the OS/8 V3D sources. It is a two page handler and works.
But how do I get my system to use it as terminal handler? Or is there another one?
Best wishes,
Philipp :-)
You need to use BUILD to make a new system image, with your device
driver included. However, you also need to understand many programs do
I/O to the console without going through that device driver, but talks
directly with the console.
So it might be that there is no easy solution to your problem.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
1 May
1 May
9:26 a.m.
Hi Johnny,
thanks for your reply.
You need to use BUILD to make a new system image, with
your device
driver included.
I know. But it had no effect. I used the KL8E.PA from the OS/8 V3D
sources, dectape 4.
It has a switch called "DELAY". But that seems to be a little delay only. For a
VT78 (whatever that
is).
What I want is fill characters. And I want to be able to configure the stuff via the
"SET" command.
Both are mentioned in the source file, but the source itself doesn't implement it. I
assume that the
fill character support has already been dropped in my version.
Perhaps anyone has an idea where to get older sources? I'm SURE that there once
existed a KL8E
driver which worked with VT05 out of the box.
I don't want to rewrite the driver...
However, you also need to understand many programs do
I/O to the console without going through that device driver, but talks
directly with the console.
I know :(
So it might be that there is no easy solution to your
problem.
If I run in trouble with all that, I will have to go back to 300 baud. The
VT05 can do without fill
characters up to 300 baud. But that's really not what I intended to use the VT05 for.
Appreciate any further hints.
Best wishes,
Philipp :-)
--
http://www.hachti.de
3:15 p.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
Again..... Looked further on, so I will answer my own message.
> I just try to get a VT05 working with my PDP-8/e.
> Having a tuned KL8E interface at 2400 baud.
And I begin to think about
switching everything to 300 baud :-(
> I need fill characters....
> Found a KL8E.PA in the OS/8 V3D sources. It is a two page handler and
> works.
Yes, it works with applications using the TTY handler
You need to use BUILD to make a new system image, with
your device
driver included. However, you also need to understand many programs do
I/O to the console without going through that device driver, but talks
directly with the console.
So it might be that there is no easy solution to your problem.
And the very first
of these "bad" programs is the OS/8 keyboard monitor!
Yes, the keyboard monitor doesn't use a handler, it just uses TLS to print what it
wants to print.
This explains why my DIRECT output works fine with the KL8E handler with delay turned on.
But I
don't get the prompt properly (sometimes). The keyboard monitor implementation looks
very straight
forward.
So there are a few new problems on my way to a working 2400 baud VT05:
How to correctly assemble the keyboard monitor? There is at least one undefined symbol in
the source
code (V3D).
When I have the binary - how to put that onto my system device?
The software support manual, OS/8 manual and "Introduction to programming" did
not really help me.
They explain *some* procedures, but only in a step by step way. They tell about building
from paper
tape using "CODNFIG" tapes (what IS that???) or the build program. They
reference paper tapes that
contain "several binaries" - but don't explain WHICH binaries. Just that the
user has to load all of
them... So in the end I did not find out how an OS/8 system is initally built.
The BUILD program can do it, I know. But where does it take the keyboard monitor from? The
"OS8.BN"
binary is not included in the installation - but I can spawn new systems using BUILD. So
it must
somehow *contain* the OS/8 binary.
I could imagine that one has to load several binaries on top of each other to pull
together the core
image that comes as BUILD.SV. But where can I find the instructions?
All in all I cannot understand why I'm getting in such deep trouble while trying to
get my VT05
working. It is a VT05 B with the "high speed" option, sold for $$$ by DEC.
Their TTY handler also supports the odd ends of the VT05 - but why doesn't the
keyboard monitor?
Either I am completely wrong or their software really did not fit their hardware.
In other places (VR14 display), they have built in the strangest device drivers into their
software,
just ready to use and plug and play. Why shouldn't they have supported their high
speed VT05? It is
from 1974, OS/8 V3D is newer than that...
Best wishes, currently a bit frustated,
Philipp :-)
--
http://www.hachti.de
3 May
3 May
8:41 a.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
Philipp Hachtmann wrote:
I could imagine that one has to load several binaries on top of each
other to pull together the core image that comes as BUILD.SV. But
where can I find the instructions?
The OS8 Handbook and the documents you mentioned have about all the
information you should need.
Philipp :-)
-chuck
12 May
12 May
9:21 p.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
Hi Charles,
The OS8 Handbook and the documents you mentioned have
about all the
information you should need.
But.. I asked here because it's not always easy to
actually FIND the information needed.
By the way I did not yet find out how to rebuild OS/8 from scratch (including
reassembly).
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
13 May
13 May
4:06 p.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
Philipp Hachtmann wrote:
Hi Charles,
I don't think that I understood the source of your troubles. I think
that the basic problem is that most of the OS/8 system did its own
thing with the console. There is no getting around that.
I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8 today. I would be
surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. All of the
diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using PAL10 on a PDP-10.
I have tried to find a coherent set of binaries and this can be
difficult too. SET is especially problematical because it requires
intimate knowledge of the handler it is going to patch. I have the
opinion that the the suggestions about using SET to change things in the
KL8-E hander are a red herring, they were probably never added to SET.
-chuck
The OS8 Handbook and the documents you mentioned
have about all the
information you should need.
But.. I asked here because it's not always easy
to actually FIND the
information needed.
By the way I did not yet find out how to rebuild OS/8 from scratch
(including reassembly).
Philipp
4:41 p.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
Charles H Dickman wrote:
I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8 today.
I would be
surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. All of the
diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using PAL10 on a PDP-10.
Strange... we still have 8's around but no 10's. Well we have a few
but I don't think PDP8 code lurks there.
I have tried to find a coherent set of binaries and
this can be
difficult too. SET is especially problematical because it requires
intimate knowledge of the handler it is going to patch. I have the
opinion that the the suggestions about using SET to change things in the
KL8-E hander are a red herring, they were probably never added to SET.
I can under stand a PDP8 not having it's own development system,
but compared to todays software, the PDP-10 software for the 8
must fit on a CD-rom, source and all.
-chuck
5:11 p.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
I can under stand a PDP8 not having it's own
development system,
but compared to todays software, the PDP-10 software for the 8
must fit on a CD-rom, source and all.
> -chuck
No argument... just find it.
-chuck
6:56 p.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
From: Charles H Dickman
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:07 PM
I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8 today.
I would be
surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. All of the
diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using PAL10 on a PDP-10.
That is easily remedied. We can certainly host PAL10 and any other PDP-10
based tools (PAL11, for example) on either the Tops-10 2065 or the TOPS-20
Toad-1 at PDPplanet. Let me know what you need, and I'll try to track it
down.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
http://www.pdpplanet.org/
14 May
14 May
4:46 a.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
Rich Alderson wrote:
From: Charles H Dickman
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:07 PM
There seem to be two separate issues here.
One is the source for maindec diags (both pdp-8 and pdp-11), which seem
to have been created and built on a pdp-10.
Discovering those sources would be quite a find. I've only seen
microfiche printouts.
(i've been working in "the mill" the past few months and I keep hoping
to find an old magtape in the ceiling or a closet :-)
But I'm not sure I believe (yet) the notion that OS/8 was not built on a
pdp-8. but who knows, I'm often mistaken.
has anyone tried to track down the any maindec or os/8 authors? they
might have kept a tape...
-brad
I suspect that it is impossible to rebuild OS/8
today. I would be=20
surprised if OS/8 was actually maintained on a PDP-8. All of the=20
diagnostic listing, for example, were generated using PAL10 on a PDP-10.
That is easily remedied. We can certainly host PAL10 and any other PDP-10
based tools (PAL11, for example) on either the Tops-10 2065 or the TOPS-20
Toad-1 at PDPplanet. Let me know what you need, and I'll try to track it
down.
5468
days inactive
5482
days old
9 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bqt＠softjar.se -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
chd_1＠nktelco.net -
hachti＠hachti.de -
RichA＠vulcan.com