28 Mar
2010
28 Mar
'10
9:09 p.m.
Hi all --
I've spent the last couple nights searching in vain for the Northstar
Horizon boot disks a listmember produced for me a few years back. I
*swear* I had them in my hands not a month ago but now they are nowhere
to be found. I'm worried they may have fallen into a box that got recycled.
I've decided I want to get my Horizon running again now that I have a
bit more spare time (my other current project, a '54 Nash Metropolitan,
is now off to the body shop for some serious work) but I'm stuck without
bootable media or any way to make my own, so I can't do much with it at
the moment.
Can anyone do me a favor and make me a copy of a couple of Horizon boot
disks (CP/M or otherwise) for this machine? I have the MDS-AD3
double-density controller with a Shugart SA400 drive.
(As a related aside, is there *anywhere* one can get hard-sectored 5.25"
floppies these days?)
Thanks as always,
Josh
28 Mar
28 Mar
10:12 p.m.
On 28 Mar 2010 at 21:09, Josh Dersch wrote:
(As a related aside, is there *anywhere* one can get
hard-sectored
5.25" floppies these days?)
You might drop the folks at Athana a line. They *used* to provide
hard sector diskettes on request; maybe they still do:
http://www.athana.com/html/inquiry.html
Cheers,
Chuck
29 Mar
29 Mar
4:12 a.m.
Hi all --
I've spent the last couple nights searching in vain for the Northstar
Horizon boot disks a listmember produced for me a few years back. I
*swear* I had them in my hands not a month ago but now they are nowhere
to be found. I'm worried they may have fallen into a box that got recycled.
I've decided I want to get my Horizon running again now that I have a
bit more spare time (my other current project, a '54 Nash Metropolitan,
is now off to the body shop for some serious work) but I'm stuck without
bootable media or any way to make my own, so I can't do much with it at
the moment.
Can anyone do me a favor and make me a copy of a couple of Horizon boot
disks (CP/M or otherwise) for this machine? I have the MDS-AD3
double-density controller with a Shugart SA400 drive.
Just an FYI - it is possible to recreate these on your own. I have a fairly
large collection of NorthStar system disk images archived on my site.
You can run them on my Horizon simulator (also on my site), and I have provided
a tool to transfer the disk images over a serial cable to a Horizon system
running a client which will write them to physical media. If you take the time
to get this running, it will give you several versions of NorthStar DOS, CP/M
and UCSD pascal, as well as a number of applications.
The client runs under NorthStar DOS, and can be transferred into the system
using the NorthStar monitor (I provide a tool that can do this). If you have
a running N*DOS system, it should be pretty easy to get it all working.
Bootstrapping a Horizon if you don't have a working boot disk is tricky, but
it can be done - the main issue with a Horizon is "how to I get the code into
the system" - because there is no front panel or ROM monitor. Fortunately
there is a 1K ROM socket on the NorthStar CPU card. I can provide a little
(500 byte) monitor which will provide basic read/write memory commands, and
the tool mentioned above can be configured to "type" data into this monitor
as well - I have pre-configured in-ram images of both single and double
density NorthStar DOS with my client which can be transferred into the system
and launched using this little ROM monitor. Then you use the PC "NST" tool
to transfer a boot disk image to physical media.
An added bonus is that the ROM monitor does not use any RAM, makes it useful
for debugging nearly-dead systems as well. The "hard part" in all this is that
you have to have or find someone who has the capability to program code into
an EPROM,
(As a related aside, is there *anywhere* one can get
hard-sectored 5.25"
floppies these days?)
You might check with the Heathkit H8 guys - It's been a while since I have
monitored that list, but I know that a couple of times in the past someone
on that list has organized a bulk order of 5.25" HS disks.
You could also program a little microcontroller to time the index
pulses and "fake" the sector pulses, thereby allowing the use of
much-more-common soft-sector disks - A few people have done this
over the years, and I think at one point someone was offering a
little board to do it.
Dave
--
dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/
5:26 a.m.
On Monday (03/29/2010 at 06:12AM -0500), Dave Dunfield wrote:
You might check with the Heathkit H8 guys - It's been a while since I have
monitored that list, but I know that a couple of times in the past someone
on that list has organized a bulk order of 5.25" HS disks.
You could also program a little microcontroller to time the index
pulses and "fake" the sector pulses, thereby allowing the use of
much-more-common soft-sector disks - A few people have done this
over the years, and I think at one point someone was offering a
little board to do it.
Yes... We did this for the H8/H89 10-hole, hard-sector floppies on the
H-17/H-88-1 controller. I put an AVR microcontroller on a little board
that synthesizes the index holes and uses 3.5" floppies.
It's all written up here,
http://sebhc.lesbird.com/storage/storage.html
look for the "HSFE" Hard Sector Floppy Emulator
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
12:53 p.m.
Dave Dunfield wrote:
Cool. I actually have a few 2708s lying around but I don't think my
programmer will write them (I think 2716s are the lower limit).
Ironically, I have a Piiceon "8K program saver" that will (assuming it's
working and I can find documentation) do the job but of course I don't
have a working S100 machine to use it in :).
So I now have a second request: Can anyone program a 2708 (or two) for
me, assuming I supply the chips? (I'd just adapt a 2716, but I don't
have any...)
Thanks, I'll check around there.
Hi all --
I've spent the last couple nights searching in vain for the Northstar
Horizon boot disks a listmember produced for me a few years back. I
*swear* I had them in my hands not a month ago but now they are nowhere
to be found. I'm worried they may have fallen into a box that got recycled.
I've decided I want to get my Horizon running again now that I have a
bit more spare time (my other current project, a '54 Nash Metropolitan,
is now off to the body shop for some serious work) but I'm stuck without
bootable media or any way to make my own, so I can't do much with it at
the moment.
Can anyone do me a favor and make me a copy of a couple of Horizon boot
disks (CP/M or otherwise) for this machine? I have the MDS-AD3
double-density controller with a Shugart SA400 drive.
Just an FYI - it is possible to recreate these on your own. I have a fairly
large collection of NorthStar system disk images archived on my site.
You can run them on my Horizon simulator (also on my site), and I have provided
a tool to transfer the disk images over a serial cable to a Horizon system
running a client which will write them to physical media. If you take the time
to get this running, it will give you several versions of NorthStar DOS, CP/M
and UCSD pascal, as well as a number of applications.
The client runs under NorthStar DOS, and can be transferred into the system
using the NorthStar monitor (I provide a tool that can do this). If you have
a running N*DOS system, it should be pretty easy to get it all working.
Bootstrapping a Horizon if you don't have a working boot disk is tricky, but
it can be done - the main issue with a Horizon is "how to I get the code into
the system" - because there is no front panel or ROM monitor. Fortunately
there is a 1K ROM socket on the NorthStar CPU card. I can provide a little
(500 byte) monitor which will provide basic read/write memory commands, and
the tool mentioned above can be configured to "type" data into this monitor
as well - I have pre-configured in-ram images of both single and double
density NorthStar DOS with my client which can be transferred into the system
and launched using this little ROM monitor. Then you use the PC "NST" tool
to transfer a boot disk image to physical media.
An added bonus is that the ROM monitor does not use any RAM, makes it useful
for debugging nearly-dead systems as well. The "hard part" in all this is that
you have to have or find someone who has the capability to program code into
an EPROM,
(As a related aside, is there *anywhere* one can
get hard-sectored 5.25"
floppies these days?)
You might check with the Heathkit H8 guys - It's been a while since I have
monitored that list, but I know that a couple of times in the past someone
on that list has organized a bulk order of 5.25" HS disks.
You could also program a little microcontroller to
time the index
pulses and "fake" the sector pulses, thereby allowing the use of
much-more-common soft-sector disks - A few people have done this
over the years, and I think at one point someone was offering a
little board to do it.
That also sounds like a fun option... once I verify that the machine
works with real media, this seems like the way to go.
Thanks!
Josh
Dave
--
dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/
1:44 p.m.
On Mar 29, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
Cool. I actually have a few 2708s lying around but I
don't think
my programmer will write them (I think 2716s are the lower limit).
Ironically, I have a Piiceon "8K program saver" that will (assuming
it's working and I can find documentation) do the job but of course
I don't have a working S100 machine to use it in :).
So I now have a second request: Can anyone program a 2708 (or two)
for me, assuming I supply the chips? (I'd just adapt a 2716, but I
don't have any...)
I can program 2708s, and I need to ship you a box soon anyway.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
30 Mar
30 Mar
8:57 p.m.
Excellent :). Contact me offlist and we can work something out...
Thanks,
Josh
Dave McGuire wrote:
On Mar 29, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
Cool. I actually have a few 2708s lying around
but I don't think my
programmer will write them (I think 2716s are the lower limit).
Ironically, I have a Piiceon "8K program saver" that will (assuming
it's working and I can find documentation) do the job but of course I
don't have a working S100 machine to use it in :).
So I now have a second request: Can anyone program a 2708 (or two)
for me, assuming I supply the chips? (I'd just adapt a 2716, but I
don't have any...)
I can program 2708s, and I need to ship you a box soon anyway.
-Dave
29 Mar
29 Mar
2:19 p.m.
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:53:29 -0700
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu
---snip---
(As a related aside, is there *anywhere* one can
get hard-sectored 5.25"
floppies these days?)
You might check with the Heathkit H8 guys - It's been a while since I have
monitored that list, but I know that a couple of times in the past someone
on that list has organized a bulk order of 5.25" HS disks.
You could also program a little microcontroller
to time the index
pulses and "fake" the sector pulses, thereby allowing the use of
much-more-common soft-sector disks - A few people have done this
over the years, and I think at one point someone was offering a
little board to do it.
That also sounds like a fun option... once I verify that the machine
works with real media, this seems like the way to go.
Thanks!
Josh 
2 Apr
2 Apr
2:24 p.m.
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote:
Bootstrapping a Horizon if you don't have a
working boot disk is tricky, but
it can be done - the main issue with a Horizon is "how to I get the code into
the system" - because there is no front panel or ROM monitor. Fortunately
there is a 1K ROM socket on the NorthStar CPU card. I can provide a little
(500 byte) monitor which will provide basic read/write memory commands, and
the tool mentioned above can be configured to "type" data into this monitor
as well - I have pre-configured in-ram images of both single and double
density NorthStar DOS with my client which can be transferred into the system
and launched using this little ROM monitor. Then you use the PC "NST" tool
to transfer a boot disk image to physical media.
Dave,
Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? I have a Horizon
here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all
of them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional
system would be greatly appreciated.
Steve
--
3 Apr
3 Apr
6:18 a.m.
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> I can provide a little (500 byte) monitor which
will provide basic
> read/write memory commands, and the tool mentioned above can be
> configured to "type" data into this monitor as well - I have
> pre-configured in-ram images of both single and double density
> NorthStar DOS with my client which can be transferred into the system
> and launched using this little ROM monitor. Then you use the PC "NST"
> tool to transfer a boot disk image to physical media.
Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM
monitor? I have a Horizon
here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all of
them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional
system would be greatly appreciated.
Ah. I believe "can provide" ---> "is included as source with NST".
Is
that correct? If so, I believe I'm set.
Steve
--
5 Apr
5 Apr
2:22 p.m.
>> I can provide a little (500 byte) monitor
which will provide basic
>> read/write memory commands,
>> ...
Ah. I believe "can provide" --->
"is included as source with NST". Is
that correct? If so, I believe I'm set.
At the time I wrote that, "can provide" ment I could give it to you if you
emailed me - however since then I have added the monitor to the Horizon
simulator package (which also includes NST etc.) - so if you don't have it
in the copy you have, just re-download it from my site.
Dave
--
dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/
3 Apr
3 Apr
8:59 a.m.
Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM
monitor? I have a Horizon
here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all
of them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional
system would be greatly appreciated.
I've been handing it out on a request basis, however I've just updated the
Horizon tools on my web site to include the monitor (source and tools to
build it) as well as updated the documentation with some hints on how to
go about making it work.
Go to "Download simulators and emulators" near the end of the main page,
and get the Horizon simulator - the simulator also includes all the tools
to bootstrap and transfer disk images to real NorthStar based systems. The
package includes bootable Double and Single density NorthStar DOS disk
images which you can customize (using the simulator) if needed. Once you
get the system up and running, check my site for other NorthStar images
which may be useful to you.
Regards,
Dave
--
dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/
5 Apr
5 Apr
11:13 a.m.
On Sat, 3 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote:
Thanks! I had noticed the addition just minutes after I made that first
posting (don't think it was there the last time I looked).
The CPU board on my Horizon does not have the EPROM option populated, but
I was able to scrounge up the parts and will add it myself.
It would really be lovely if a Catweasel driver with N* hard-sector write
support existed. I may look into this at some point.
Steve
--
Where can I
get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? I have a Horizon
here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all
of them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional
system would be greatly appreciated.
I've been handing it out on a request basis, however I've just updated the
Horizon tools on my web site to include the monitor (source and tools to
build it) as well as updated the documentation with some hints on how to
go about making it work.
Go to "Download simulators and emulators" near the end of the main page,
and get the Horizon simulator - the simulator also includes all the tools
to bootstrap and transfer disk images to real NorthStar based systems. The
package includes bootable Double and Single density NorthStar DOS disk
images which you can customize (using the simulator) if needed. Once you
get the system up and running, check my site for other NorthStar images
which may be useful to you. 
12:34 p.m.
Dave Dunfield wrote:
Dave,
Without a bootable disk he can't do anything! The only resident rom is
the disk booter all 256 or 512 bytes depending if its SD or DD.
Minimally a monitor on a rom card (or cpu) with a minimal monitor is
needed.
This has been the challenge for all new people aquiring NS* systems
without media.
The other problem is without a CW card one cannot make a bootable
disk using a generic PC as it's hard sectored.
My solution is a CPU (compupro Z80, of SBC880) with Eprom monitor
or using a card like Compupro System Support 1 that can carry rom
and provide a system monitor/debugger. Of course any rom card
can carry the needed code.
One would also do well to read the available and very complete NS*
Horizon docs on line. It explains the system very well and also
provides the needed schematics, layouts and minute detail that
are required.
Allison
Where can I
get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? I have a Horizon
here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all
of them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional
system would be greatly appreciated.
I've been handing it out on a request basis, however I've just updated the
Horizon tools on my web site to include the monitor (source and tools to
build it) as well as updated the documentation with some hints on how to
go about making it work.
Go to "Download simulators and emulators" near the end of the main page,
and get the Horizon simulator - the simulator also includes all the tools
to bootstrap and transfer disk images to real NorthStar based systems. The
package includes bootable Double and Single density NorthStar DOS disk
images which you can customize (using the simulator) if needed. Once you
get the system up and running, check my site for other NorthStar images
which may be useful to you.
Regards,
Dave
--
dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/
1:21 p.m.
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:34:22 -0400
From: ajp166 at verizon.net
To:
Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon boot disks
Dave Dunfield wrote:
Dave,
Without a bootable disk he can't do anything! The only resident rom is
the disk booter all 256 or 512 bytes depending if its SD or DD.
Minimally a monitor on a rom card (or cpu) with a minimal monitor is
needed.
This has been the challenge for all new people aquiring NS* systems
without media.
The other problem is without a CW card one cannot make a bootable
disk using a generic PC as it's hard sectored.
My solution is a CPU (compupro Z80, of SBC880) with Eprom monitor
or using a card like Compupro System Support 1 that can carry rom
and provide a system monitor/debugger. Of course any rom card
can carry the needed code.
One would also do well to read the available and very complete NS*
Horizon docs on line. It explains the system very well and also
provides the needed schematics, layouts and minute detail that
are required.
Allison
Hi Allison
What Dave is talking about is a bootstrapping ROM monitor that can be
used to create a boot disk. That is exactly what he is providing.
He is quite aware of the problem of the chicken and egg.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=P…
Where can
I get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? I have a Horizon
here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all
of them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional
system would be greatly appreciated.
I've been handing it out on a request basis, however I've just updated the
Horizon tools on my web site to include the monitor (source and tools to
build it) as well as updated the documentation with some hints on how to
go about making it work.
Go to "Download simulators and emulators" near the end of the main page,
and get the Horizon simulator - the simulator also includes all the tools
to bootstrap and transfer disk images to real NorthStar based systems. The
package includes bootable Double and Single density NorthStar DOS disk
images which you can customize (using the simulator) if needed. Once you
get the system up and running, check my site for other NorthStar images
which may be useful to you.
Regards,
Dave
--
dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/
1:34 p.m.
On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, dwight elvey wrote:
Hi Allison
What Dave is talking about is a bootstrapping ROM monitor that can be
used to create a boot disk. That is exactly what he is providing.
He is quite aware of the problem of the chicken and egg.
Dave is quite cognizant of the bizarre requirements to "Bootstrap".
Having an EPROM programmer on another machine really helps a lot!
The term originated from the exploits of Baron Von Munchausen. He was
sinking into a swamp, with nothing overhead nor to the sides to grab hold
of. So, he reached down, and grabbed his own boot straps, pulled up on
them, and lifted himself (and his horse!) out of the mire.
Or so he claimed.
It's a great metaphor!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
2:56 p.m.
Dave Dunfield wrote:
>> Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor?
Without a bootable disk he can't do anything! The
only resident rom is
the disk booter all 256 or 512 bytes depending if its SD or DD.
Minimally a monitor on a rom card (or cpu) with a minimal monitor is
needed.
This has been the challenge for all new people aquiring NS* systems
without media.
We've been specifically talking about a tiny (<500 byte) RAMless monitor
which can be put into the 2708 socket on the N* ZPB CPU card.
The other problem is without a CW card one cannot make
a bootable
disk using a generic PC as it's hard sectored.
Once you have the ROM monitor working in the CPU card, it can be used to
download into RAM a copy of N*DOS with my NST client - then you can use
my NST utility on the PC to transfer images over the serial port and have
the system write them to disk.
My solution is a CPU (compupro Z80, of SBC880) with
Eprom monitor
or using a card like Compupro System Support 1 that can carry rom
and provide a system monitor/debugger. Of course any rom card
can carry the needed code.
Good point that I failed to mention earlier - if you have access to another
working S-100 system, you can put your NorthStar controller into it, load
the software into memory by whatever means can be done on that system, and
then launch it to write the N* disks ... My simulator has fully configurable
serial I/O (can make it look like virtually any UART) so you can use it to
configure and test a version of N*DOS and the NST client which would work
on that other system.
Dave
--
dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/
5375
days inactive
5382
days old
16 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
ajp166＠verizon.net -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chrise＠pobox.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dave09＠dunfield.com -
derschjo＠mail.msu.edu -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
snhirsch＠gmail.com