12 May
2004
12 May
'04
10:51 a.m.
Has anyone on here ever thought about putting up a site that
documents the collector interest or areas of specialty for the
folks who visit here?
If this sounds like a good idea, I'll create a site and host it.
It could have things like a "wish list", "current inventory",
"items for trade/sale", etc.
I know some of this type of thing exists elsewhere, such as
on Sellam's VCM site, but I haven't seen a place where I can
go to find individuals who have specific computers, parts, wants,
etc.
Other ideas and opinions are welcome. If this kind of thing
already exists, just enlighten me as to where it is located.
Ashley
12 May
12 May
11 a.m.
Has anyone on here ever thought about putting up a
site that
documents the collector interest or areas of specialty for the folks
who visit here?
I'd certainly be interested in such a database, but if the interface to
it is some Web-only horror, I unfortunately will not be participating
at all actively.
For my own part, I'm mostly a Sun person, concentrating on the period
from late sun4c to the early sun4u. I'm mostly not
interested in
anything without an MMU or otherwise incapable of running some
flavour
of Unix, but not totally - for example, I have a 68hc11 development
board I wouldn't mind another one of.
I'd love to get hold of anything that runs four-year-old NetBSD that I
don't already have an example of, especially if it's a CPU architecture
I don't have, notably mmeye/evbsh3 (the Super-H SH3) or pc532.
I'd also particularly like to hear of HP-IB disks of nontrivial digital
size and reasonably small physical size, as I have an hp300 that's been
gathering dust because I have almost no disk for it - or anything
equivalent, such as a converter between HP-IB and something commoner
such as IDE or SCSI.
I also have a small number of Sun cards (mostly third-party) which are
useless to me for lack of documentation, and I would love to find out
anything anyone can tell me about them. I can't compose a list at the
moment (I'm not near the cards), but if such a database is to be kept
somewhere I can certainly make such a list.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
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X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1:42 p.m.
>>> if the interface to it is some Web-only
horror, I unfortunately will not
be participating
How else could it be done? Please be specific.
--- der Mouse <mouse(a)Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> wrote:
Has anyone on
here ever thought about putting up a site that
documents the collector interest or areas of specialty for the folks
who visit here?
I'd certainly be interested in such a database, but if the interface to
it is some Web-only horror, I unfortunately will not be participating
at all actively.
For my own part, I'm mostly a Sun person, concentrating on the period
from late sun4c to the early sun4u. I'm mostly not interested in
anything without an MMU or otherwise incapable of running some flavour
of Unix, but not totally - for example, I have a 68hc11 development
board I wouldn't mind another one of.
I'd love to get hold of anything that runs four-year-old NetBSD that I
don't already have an example of, especially if it's a CPU architecture
I don't have, notably mmeye/evbsh3 (the Super-H SH3) or pc532.
I'd also particularly like to hear of HP-IB disks of nontrivial digital
size and reasonably small physical size, as I have an hp300 that's been
gathering dust because I have almost no disk for it - or anything
equivalent, such as a converter between HP-IB and something commoner
such as IDE or SCSI.
I also have a small number of Sun cards (mostly third-party) which are
useless to me for lack of documentation, and I would love to find out
anything anyone can tell me about them. I can't compose a list at the
moment (I'm not near the cards), but if such a database is to be kept
somewhere I can certainly make such a list.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1:57 p.m.
if the
interface to it is some Web-only horror, I unfortunately will
not be participating
How else could it be done? Please be specific. 
1:58 p.m.
On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 04:00:04PM -0400, der Mouse wrote:
I'd also particularly like to hear of HP-IB disks
of nontrivial digital
size and reasonably small physical size...
The only HPIB disks I have _are_ of trivial digital size and _non_
trivial physical size - Commodore D9060 and D9090 units (5MB and 7.5MB,
5.25"-full height MFM drives inside). I keep thinking of trying to
rewrite the ROM code and turn the software-driven SASI port into a
SCSI port. One limitation, naturally, is the filesystem - it tops
out at around 16MB (it manages cylinder, head and sectors internally
as bytes - the "normal" geometry is something like 153 x 4|6 x 32).
One could re-write the filesystem, since I am not aware of any PET
apps that accessed the drive on a track/sector basis, unlike lots of
floppy programs, but that's a whole lot more work than implementing
a larger drive as N units of 255x255x255 sectors of 256 bytes.
What probably makes more sense, naturally, is to not attempt to
make the drive handle larger disks internally, but rather to make
a D9060/D9090 _compatible_ drive, with a subset of C= DOS 3.0,
using all modern technology, down to either a modern hard drive,
or perhaps a CF card. All you'd really need for that is your
favorite uP with an IEEE-488 interface, and a few megs of local
storage.
I haven't played much with HP IEEE-488 devices... where would I
find the command set (i.e. what strings to send the drive
over the GPIB bus) for mass storage? The other device I'm
curious about is a 9-track HP drive I have, but that can wait
until I'm home and have it in front of me...
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-May-2004 22:36 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -65.5 F (-54.2 C) Windchill -124.6 F (-87 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 14.4 kts Grid 034 Barometer 687.6 mb (10341. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
2:50 p.m.
I'd also
particularly like to hear of HP-IB disks of nontrivial
digital size and reasonably small physical size...
The only HPIB disks I have
_are_ of trivial digital size and _non_
trivial physical size - Commodore D9060 and D9090 units (5MB and 7.5MB,
5.25"-full height MFM
drives inside). I keep thinking of trying to rewrite the ROM code
and turn the software-driven SASI port into a SCSI port.
The software-driven SASI port of what? The machine I want to use this
on is a NetBSD/hp300 system, a 319 or 320 or some such.
I haven't played much with HP IEEE-488 devices...
where would I find
the command set (i.e. what strings to send the drive over the GPIB
bus) for mass storage?
Darned if I know. The NetBSD/hp300 driver might have some of that in
it, but it also might not. I ought to go look.
I have what I think is probably an IEEE-488 interface for a SPARC (it's
an SBus card); perhaps I should try to scare up docs on it and see if I
can put it in a machine and build a disk server for it. That should be
sufficiently hacky. :-)
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/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
3:39 p.m.
New subject: HPIB disks (was Re: IDEA - Collector interest database)
On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 07:50:14PM -0400, der Mouse wrote:
I wrote:
The SASI port is internal - there are two PCBs in the drive enclosure,
a "DOS board" (C='s term) with one processor to talk GPIB to the outside
world, and another processor to talk SASI to the other board, a Xebec?
SASI<->ST-506 board. The drive mech is either a Tandon TM602S or a TM603S.
The idea was to upgrade the "DOS board" firmware to speak SCSI rather than
SASI (same electrical interface, _slightly_ different command set) to use
a more modern 50MB-200MB drive of the sort I have in stacks on the shelf.
Slightly easier than implementing a command-set compatible drive from
scratch.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-May-2004 00:32 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -66.9 F (-55.0 C) Windchill -130.3 F (-90.2 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 15.7 kts Grid 031 Barometer 688.1 mb (10321. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
The only HPIB
disks I have _are_ of trivial digital size and _non_
trivial physical size -
Commodore D9060 and D9090 units (5MB and 7.5MB,
5.25"-full height MFM
drives inside). I keep thinking of trying to rewrite the ROM code
and turn the software-driven SASI port into a SCSI port.
The software-driven SASI port of what?
4:56 p.m.
New subject: HPIB disks (was Re: IDEA - Collector interest database)
and turn the software-driven SASI port into a SCSI
port.
The software-driven SASI port of what?
7:38 p.m.
New subject: HPIB disks (was Re: IDEA - Collector interest database)
On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 09:56:17PM -0400, der Mouse wrote:
I wrote:
I wasn't trying to describe _all_ HPIB drives, just the Commodore D9060
and D9090 drives. Your 7958 sounds like a perfectly valid way of doing
things... in fact, since it uses a 1355, I'm sort of intrigued (since I
have a few on the shelf). I'll have to try to remember that HP model
number when I'm digging for drive docs.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-May-2004 04:11 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.4 F (-56.3 C) Windchill -132.2 F (-91.2 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 15.1 kts Grid 028 Barometer 688.3 mb (10313. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
The SASI port
is internal - there are two PCBs in the drive
enclosure, a "DOS board" (C='s term) with one processor to talk GPIB
to the outside world, and another processor to talk SASI to the other
board, a Xebec? SASI<->ST-506 board. The drive mech is either a
Tandon TM602S or a TM603S.
This...does not agree with the reality I find upon opening up the first
HP-IB disk that came to hand (a 7958). The HP-IB connector is soldered
to a board which speaks to the disk drive - a Micropolis 1355, not a
TManything - over two ribbon cables. Except for stuff internal to the
1355, the only other PCB in the box is the power supply.
8:02 p.m.
New subject: HPIB disks (was Re: IDEA - Collector interest database)
The SASI port is internal - there are two PCBs [...]
This...does not agree with the reality I find upon opening up the
first HP-IB disk that came to hand (a 7958). [...] Your 7958 sounds like a perfectly valid way of doing
things... in
fact, since it uses a 1355, I'm sort of intrigued (since I have a few
on the shelf). I'll have to try to remember that HP model number
when I'm digging for drive docs.
I should poke around and see if I have any other drives with that
interface (what is it, ESDI?). If I have any _largeish_ such drives
(FVO "largeish" of about "more than about ?G") I'd be extremely
tempted
to hook one up and see if it works.
I also should dig out that SBus IEEE488 card and see if I can scare up
any doc on it.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
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13 May
13 May
1:37 a.m.
New subject: HPIB disks (was Re: IDEA - Collector interest database)
On Thu, May 13, 2004 at 01:02:41AM -0400, der Mouse wrote:
Ah! I misunderstood. ("When I regained
consciousness...." :)
Fair enough...
I should poke around and see if I have any other
drives with that
interface (what is it, ESDI?).
Off the top of my head, I forget what interfaces the 1325, 1335 and
1355 have (I have all of them on the shelf), but yes... find out what
the 1355 looks like, and and see what else is like it.
If I have any _largeish_ such drives
(FVO "largeish" of about "more than about ?G") I'd be extremely
tempted
to hook one up and see if it works.
I have some 1.2GB ESDI drives on an SDI card... they got quite large.
I also should dig out that SBus IEEE488 card and see
if I can scare up
any doc on it.
I should be so lucky to have an Sbus GPIB card... I do have a couple of
ISA cards (and a couple of Qbus cards), but that's it... if I ever
end up manufacturing a D9060/D9090-compatitible, it will be with a
home-brew machine, perhaps 68000-based (since I have $40K MSRP worth
of debugging/development tools).
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-May-2004 10:30 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.9 F (-56.6 C) Windchill -129.2 F (-89.59 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 14 kts Grid 032 Barometer 688.9 mb (10293. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
12 May
12 May
11:10 a.m.
If this sounds like a good idea, I'll create a
site and host it.
It could have things like a "wish list",
"current inventory",
"items for trade/sale", etc.
Something like this would be great, even if it is just a software package
for one's own private uses. I mainly just want to catalog and archive
information about my own 'collection', whether it be on or offline.
I encourage you to go ahead, there is no such thing as too much of a good
thing. ;)
--
Thanks,
Torquil MacCorkle, III
Lexington, Virginia
11:18 a.m.
I would create it as a web-based, self-service application available on the
web
to registered members. It could perhaps be associated with this list, if
the
guys running the list approve (Jay?). I'll create a test-run version (in my
spare
time) and let everyone test it out. If you like it, we can keep it.
Other ideas and thoughts?
Ashley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Torquil MacCorkle, III" <torquil(a)chemist.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: IDEA - Collector interest database
If this sounds
like a good idea, I'll create a site and host it.
It could have things like a "wish
list", "current inventory",
"items for trade/sale", etc.
Something like this would be great, even if it is just a software package
for one's own private uses. I mainly just want to catalog and archive
information about my own 'collection', whether it be on or offline.
I encourage you to go ahead, there is no such thing as too much of a good
thing. ;)
--
Thanks,
Torquil MacCorkle, III
Lexington, Virginia
12:52 p.m.
The friendliest way to do this seems to be a webring where everybody
has their own page, and all are linked together, making something like
a neighborhood block party, where a visitor can go from person'd place
to the next. Even though I've worked with databases, they seem too
conforming and impersonal.
I've held back in making a page (shy?) but would get in it quickly if
classiccmp started a community (accent: unity) like this.
BTW I've seen several of the database attempts, but few that appeal.
maybe we should look at those first and see what's good/bad with
them first.
John A.
1:29 p.m.
On Wed, 12 May 2004, John Allain wrote:
BTW I've seen several of the database attempts,
but few that appeal.
maybe we should look at those first and see what's good/bad with
them first.
Patrick and I are always interested in comments, suggestions, and general
feedback on the VCM.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
1:54 p.m.
Webring and unity: that's a good idea.
I think one problem with web-based collector's lists is that too many people
want to be one who 'owns' the list. It is a GOOD thing that so many people
care about this hobby and want to see an authoritative directory, but is a BAD
thing that they end of overlapping, ultimately creating a lack of interest.
Perhaps it's Darwinian. For example, even though there are (I think) 500-700
people on this list and on CCtalk combined, there are still many more people
who maybe aren't 'collectors' per se but who are still interested, and those
people probably just Google whenever the need arises, and find their way to
sites such as www.old-computers.com -- these people probably never know
cctalk/cctech exists -- however these casual collectors are the ones we should
be trying to lure deeper into the hobby.
We all have to stop being introspective geeks and start being extrovertive
advocates. Otherwise, isolated web sites and eBay will be our doom.
--- John Allain <allain(a)panix.com> wrote:
The friendliest way to do this seems to be a webring
where everybody
has their own page, and all are linked together, making something like
a neighborhood block party, where a visitor can go from person'd place
to the next. Even though I've worked with databases, they seem too
conforming and impersonal.
I've held back in making a page (shy?) but would get in it quickly if
classiccmp started a community (accent: unity) like this.
BTW I've seen several of the database attempts, but few that appeal.
maybe we should look at those first and see what's good/bad with
them first.
John A.
11:35 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ashley Carder" <wacarder(a)usit.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 3:51 PM
Subject: IDEA - Collector interest database
Has anyone on here ever thought about putting up a site that
documents the collector interest or areas of specialty for the
folks who visit here?
If this sounds like a good idea, I'll create a site and host it.
It could have things like a "wish list", "current inventory",
"items for trade/sale", etc.
I know some of this type of thing exists elsewhere, such as
on Sellam's VCM site, but I haven't seen a place where I can
go to find individuals who have specific computers, parts, wants,
etc.
Other ideas and opinions are welcome. If this kind of thing
already exists, just enlighten me as to where it is located.
Ashley
_________________________
I've had this site up for more than a year now. It's kinda lame, I know, but
it's an attempt anyway. The hard part is to keep emails current (and to keep
from getting pissed off at people who don't have
the decency to thank you
when you're making a change for them.)
I've posted requests for additions to this list every now and then, and have
thought of making changes but, honestly, there doesn't seem to be a whole
lot of interest.
http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/index.htm
and :
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/collectors.htm
The latter is my personal collecting/family site but both versions of the
list are complete and up-to-date as of right now. We get letters from the
site now and then, which I forward to all members no matter where they are
or what they collect. Just got one yesterday from South Florida from someone
with a raft of PC stuff.
bm
11:44 a.m.
I've had this site up for more than a year now.
It's kinda lame, I know, but
it's an attempt anyway. The hard part is to keep emails current (and to keep
from getting pissed off at people who don't have the decency to thank you
when you're making a change for them.)
I've posted requests for additions to this list every now and then, and have
thought of making changes but, honestly, there doesn't seem to be a whole
lot of interest.
http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/index.htm
Two comments on the lack of interest. How many people are aware it exists,
and how many people are afriad of such a list making them a target?
Zane
3:40 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: IDEA - Collector interest database
exists,
> I've had this site up for more than a year
now. It's kinda lame, I know,
but
> it's an attempt anyway. The hard part is to
keep emails current (and to
keep
> from getting pissed off at people who don't
have the decency to thank
you
> when you're making a change for them.)
>
> I've posted requests for additions to this list every now and then, and
have
> thought of making changes but, honestly, there
doesn't seem to be a
whole
lot of
interest.
http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/index.htm
Two comments on the lack of interest. How many people are aware it and how many people are afriad of such a list making
them a target?
Zane
A target for what? Spam? Offers of free computers? Information and price
quotes? I get all of those but that's why I use hotmail/yahoo etc. except
for this list. Since 1995 I've answered every email I've received about
computers and pricing, where to find collectors and many offers of free
computers. I don't mind it one bit. Really don't know why anyone would be
afraid of being a target. I figure it's a service I am offering and my
reward is free computers ... lots of them.
As for people not knowing it exists, the fifth search result in Google for
'computer collectors list' is a reference from classiccomp.Gives the url and
complete info on how to get listed. You're right though, there should be
more mention of it. Don't know what else I can do except send my info to
Google every now and then plus mention it on here.
Hey, go for it. The more lists there are, the more valuable stuff is kept
out of the landfill. If there are a hundred lists, it'll be a lot easier for
folks to contact collectors. If you've got some better ideas on marketing
such a list, take the ball and run with it. I'll support anyone who does.
I think the key would be to have a searchable database online. Someone
collects X computers and someone who has one can instantly find them. I
think that was the gist of the original post. Best of luck to anyone who can
do this.
bm
4:02 p.m.
I appreciate the encouragement. A searchable database is
very do-able, as long as we can get interested folks to
contribute to it. A web ring is also a good thing and is
very do-able as well. There are things that can be done
to make your pages move toward the front of Google searches
so that they can be found.
I also agree with the earlier comment that mentioned the
word UNITY. I understand that it is often hard to get
a large group of folks organized for such a task, but even
if we can get some portion of the folks here to participate,
I do believe it will be beneficial.
I will hold off on doing anything for a few days and see
what other types of ideas folks have. If we do move
forward on such a thing, I think that it will be more
successful if everyone has input.
Ashley
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Brian Mahoney
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 8:40 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IDEA - Collector interest database
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: IDEA - Collector interest database
exists,
> I've had this site up for more than a year
now. It's kinda lame, I know,
but
> it's an attempt anyway. The hard part is to
keep emails current (and to
keep
> from getting pissed off at people who don't
have the decency to thank
you
> when you're making a change for them.)
>
> I've posted requests for additions to this list every now and then, and
have
> thought of making changes but, honestly, there
doesn't seem to be a
whole
lot of
interest.
http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/index.htm
Two comments on the lack of interest. How many people are aware it and how many people are afriad of such a list making
them a target?
Zane
A target for what? Spam? Offers of free computers? Information and price
quotes? I get all of those but that's why I use hotmail/yahoo etc. except
for this list. Since 1995 I've answered every email I've received about
computers and pricing, where to find collectors and many offers of free
computers. I don't mind it one bit. Really don't know why anyone would be
afraid of being a target. I figure it's a service I am offering and my
reward is free computers ... lots of them.
As for people not knowing it exists, the fifth search result in Google for
'computer collectors list' is a reference from classiccomp.Gives the url and
complete info on how to get listed. You're right though, there should be
more mention of it. Don't know what else I can do except send my info to
Google every now and then plus mention it on here.
Hey, go for it. The more lists there are, the more valuable stuff is kept
out of the landfill. If there are a hundred lists, it'll be a lot easier for
folks to contact collectors. If you've got some better ideas on marketing
such a list, take the ball and run with it. I'll support anyone who does.
I think the key would be to have a searchable database online. Someone
collects X computers and someone who has one can instantly find them. I
think that was the gist of the original post. Best of luck to anyone who can
do this.
bm
5:14 p.m.
On Wed, 12 May 2004, Brian Mahoney wrote:
I think the key would be to have a searchable database
online. Someone
collects X computers and someone who has one can instantly find them. I
think that was the gist of the original post. Best of luck to anyone who can
do this.
Again, this is exactly what the Vintage Computer Marketplace database
feature does/will do. The next iteration of the system will have most
(or all) of this functionality in place. There are other tangible
benefits to using the VCM to keep your catalog online, including being
able to easily convert a database entry into a for sale/auction listing
and also transfering records from one collection to another with a single
click and thereby automatically creating a line of provenance for a
particular system. Plus many more cool features...
http://marketplace.vintage.org
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
5:59 p.m.
Sellam,
I don't want to do duplicate work. How will folks put their
information into your system and search for stuff, etc? It
sounds like you're already planning to do these things that I
brought up in my original post. When will your database be
available for us to put our name, interests, catalog, location,
want list, etc. into? Something like that would be of great
benefit to folks here and would sure make searching easier.
Thanks,
Ashley
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer
Festival
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 10:14 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IDEA - Collector interest database
On Wed, 12 May 2004, Brian Mahoney wrote:
I think the key would be to have a searchable database
online. Someone
collects X computers and someone who has one can instantly find them. I
think that was the gist of the original post. Best of luck to anyone who
can
do this.
Again, this is exactly what the Vintage Computer Marketplace database
feature does/will do. The next iteration of the system will have most
(or all) of this functionality in place. There are other tangible
benefits to using the VCM to keep your catalog online, including being
able to easily convert a database entry into a for sale/auction listing
and also transfering records from one collection to another with a single
click and thereby automatically creating a line of provenance for a
particular system. Plus many more cool features...
http://marketplace.vintage.org
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage
mputers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at
ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ]
6:50 p.m.
On Wed, 12 May 2004, Ashley Carder wrote:
I don't want to do duplicate work. How will folks
put their
information into your system and search for stuff, etc? It
sounds like you're already planning to do these things that I
brought up in my original post. When will your database be
available for us to put our name, interests, catalog, location,
want list, etc. into? Something like that would be of great
benefit to folks here and would sure make searching easier.
Most (all?) of those features are already in place. There are just a few
loose ends to tie up to make it complete and fully functional. For
instance, right now there's not an easy way to find another user's
collection, though you can get a complete listing of the various wanted
items and contact the wanting users directly.
Anyway, the next iteration of the system will tie up a lot of these loose
ends.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
6:17 p.m.
I think the
key would be to have a searchable database
online. Someone
collects X computers and someone who has one can
instantly
find them.
6:38 p.m.
Patrick,
Thanks for the info! I'll check it out. It sounds like you're
already mostly there. I'm still learning about the various
resources available and seemed to notice a lack of a collector
profile site/database, but it was likely due to my lack of
knowledge of what's available. If I'm looking for stuff, I
look first on eBay and VCM, then Google. I was trying to make
a list for myself of who had what types of collections, so I
would have a reference.
Once I take a short tour, I'll give you some feedback,
(constructive, not destructive!).
Ashley
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Patrick Rigney
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:18 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: IDEA - Collector interest database
To elaborate on what Sellam said about the Vintage Computer Marketplace,
even the current version can do this, and although the current incarnation
of that process is a bit more manual than we'd ultimately like it to be,
it's far less manual than sending email to a bunch of lists or webmasters of
various sites and waiting for replies.
Specifically, on the current version of the site, you will find in the left
navigation a "Wanted" link... This page presents a list of what all current
VCM members have in their wish lists, and who is looking for them. You can
contact them by clicking on their name. If you, for example, have a PDP-11
you wish to sell, you can readily find who would be interested in buying.
If there is recent history for that item, it also displays the high, low,
and average price for it over the last 12 months, so you can get some
datapoints on value. If you happen have one of those items in your
collection, it will alert you to that fact (so you don't have to remember).
Also, wherever you see someone's user name (handle as we call it), you can
click to see their profile, and you'll see the listing of what's in their
collection. If an item is for sale, there's a link to the listing. Check
out mine (incomplete, but most of the important stuff is there, and yes,
it's extremely modest by most of your standards, I'm sure)...
http://marketplace.vintage.org/showuser.cfm?handle=patrick
You'll also see my personal wish list there, if you're interested. :-)
We chose not to put a site-wide search of people's collections in the first
revision because of privacy/abuse concerns. We were concerned that VCM
members would get sheafs of email offering to take that
<insert-system-name-here> off their hands for <insert-stupidly-low-price>.
Ironically, even without that search capability, this is happening anyway.
People email sellers based on listings they post for sale/auction. But in
the last few months, what we've heard so far is that (1) people really want
to search collections across the entire membership base, and (2) some people
want their collections to be private. The former is coming, and we already
support the latter.
So, we're getting there, and we're listening. A lot of people have had
great feedback, and a lot of that feedback has been incorporated into the
site already. Please keep it coming, but here's a hint: feedback (politely
worded) from registered members who have actually used the site (beyond just
registering and skimming a few pages), carries more weight.
Ashley: Try us out. It's free. It's painless. It's run by fellow collectors.
Patrick :-)
I think the
key would be to have a searchable database
online. Someone
collects X computers and someone who has one can
instantly
find them.
13 May
13 May
5:06 a.m.
^^^^^^^^^^^
BTW I like the VCM.*
Itt's just that we're talking show-and-tell, not show
and sell, in this instance. The VCM is actually a
surprizingly good effort and I hope everybody on
the list checks it out at least once a month.
John A.
* a freeze-dried sentence
5:46 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Allain" <allain(a)panix.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: IDEA - Collector interest database
^^^^^^^^^^^
BTW I like the VCM.*
Itt's just that we're talking show-and-tell, not show
and sell, in this instance. The VCM is actually a
surprizingly good effort and I hope everybody on
the list checks it out at least once a month.
John A.
* a freeze-dried sentence
All of the material doesn't have to be on the same site to be searchable, I
don't think. Can't you setup a Google app to search only what site/sites you
want and then continually edit that list? I don't mean the Google main
search site, I mean the one you can install on your own site. That way you'd
have this massive database similar to the web itself but using only sites
that pertain to vintage computing. Dead links would be reported somehow or a
spider could check the base sites on a regular basis.
bm
10:52 a.m.
On Thu, 2004-05-13 at 14:06, John Allain wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^
BTW I like the VCM.*
Itt's just that we're talking show-and-tell, not show
and sell, in this instance. The VCM is actually a
surprizingly good effort and I hope everybody on
the list checks it out at least once a month.
Are there any stats for the location of buyers, casual browers (that'd
have to be based on IP) and sellers? Looking at that front page it looks
purely an American affair at the moment, with a couple of strays.
I'd use it for listing my collection and interests. I couldn't really
use it for buying or selling though, as shipping to/from the UK just
makes it uneconomical on anything but the smallest items unless they're
located in this country.
Does anyone else on this side of the pond have any idea where all the
classic collectors are lurking? Generally, they don't seem to be on this
list. It'd be nice if the VCM reached a wider (non-US) audience...
cheers
Jules
11:58 a.m.
On Thu, 13 May 2004, Jules Richardson wrote:
Are there any stats for the location of buyers, casual
browers (that'd
have to be based on IP) and sellers? Looking at that front page it looks
purely an American affair at the moment, with a couple of strays.
Hi Jules.
I'll have Patrick respond with regional statistics. But as for the system
itself, it's definitely geared towards an international user base. We
added multiple currency support a while ago and have always intended a
global scope.
I'd use it for listing my collection and
interests. I couldn't really
use it for buying or selling though, as shipping to/from the UK just
makes it uneconomical on anything but the smallest items unless they're
located in this country.
That's my next business plan :)
Does anyone else on this side of the pond have any
idea where all the
classic collectors are lurking? Generally, they don't seem to be on this
list. It'd be nice if the VCM reached a wider (non-US) audience...
I'd like to know as well...
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
1:43 p.m.
I'll have Patrick respond with regional
statistics. But as
for the system itself, it's definitely geared towards an
international user base. We added multiple currency support
a while ago and have always intended a global scope.
We have users from 44 different countries as of this moment, and we support
seven currencies (US $, Euros, British Pounds, Australian $, Canadian $,
Hong Kong $, and Japanese Yen).
The breakdown of users, for those of you who love ISO-3166 country codes,
is:
AR 2
AT 2
AU 21
BE 4
BG 2
BR 5
CA 45
CH 5
CL 1
CM 1
CN 1
CO 1
CR 1
DE 20
DK 4
ES 7
FI 1
FR 4
FX 4
GB 42
GG 1
GR 2
HU 1
IE 1
IL 1
IN 1
IT 11
JP 1
LK 1
LU 2
MO 1
MX 2
MY 1
NL 13
NO 1
NZ 2
PH 1
PL 1
PT 2
RU 1
SE 4
SK 2
US 619
YU 1
> this list. It'd be nice if the VCM reached a
wider (non-US)
> audience...
All they have to do is sign up! Spread the word, man! :-)
Patrick
2:21 p.m.
On Thu, May 13, 2004 at 03:43:59PM -0700, Patrick Rigney wrote:
We have users from 44 different countries as of this
moment, and we support
seven currencies (US $, Euros, British Pounds, Australian $, Canadian $,
Hong Kong $, and Japanese Yen).
The breakdown of users, for those of you who love ISO-3166 country codes,
is:
US 619
Didn't you forget...
AQ 1
:-)
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-May-2004 23:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.0 F (-56.2 C) Windchill -101.3 F (-74.09 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 7.7 kts Grid 068 Barometer 689.3 mb (10277. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
1:47 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk(a)yahoo.co.uk>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: IDEA - Collector interest database
On Thu, 2004-05-13 at 14:06, John Allain wrote:
Good point Jules. I used to have quite a few contacts from Britain, Belgium
and Italy plus some more probably who emailed me from my site. I guess in
1996 there weren't that many vintage computer pages so I used to get a lot
more then, than I do now. Terrific interest in Atari, Amiga, Tandy too I
think plus Apple. Those were the ones I knew, then there were Acorns and
things I didn't know about. (Since discovered that Sears here in Canada used
to sell Acorns.) The sites and the people are out there, it just seems
harded to find them.
What's a boot sale? :)
Maybe you could start a European vintage site!
bm
^^^^^^^^^^^
BTW I like the VCM.*
Itt's just that we're talking show-and-tell, not show
and sell, in this instance. The VCM is actually a
surprizingly good effort and I hope everybody on
the list checks it out at least once a month.
Are there any stats for the location of buyers, casual browers (that'd
have to be based on IP) and sellers? Looking at that front page it looks
purely an American affair at the moment, with a couple of strays.
I'd use it for listing my collection and interests. I couldn't really
use it for buying or selling though, as shipping to/from the UK just
makes it uneconomical on anything but the smallest items unless they're
located in this country.
Does anyone else on this side of the pond have any idea where all the
classic collectors are lurking? Generally, they don't seem to be on this
list. It'd be nice if the VCM reached a wider (non-US) audience...
cheers
Jules
5:53 a.m.
I've had this site up for more than a year now.
It's kinda lame, I
know, but it's an attempt anyway.
http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/index.htm
I like the simplicity of this.
Kind of like the bulletin board where everybody posts their business
card. The links to individual sites are there... so this could be an
index to a webring, and each individual could decide how much
information to put there, and how to do it. That would also create
a compete and evolve system that may be a good motivational tool.
- - -
On the subject of databases. I think they're too "Robot friendly"
and that may be more an opportunity for the unfriendly than the
friendly. Look how neat eMail and NewsGroups were for years,
and then people got the spark of an idea for spam. Right now
I get 300 spams a day, and that costs a lot of time.
I think if you list out your whole collection to a database that
creates an opportunity for some kind of unfriendly approaches,
I don't think I'll know what exactly they'll be until they're a problem.
BTW I have a personal collection database on my computer
and even though I know SQL and Excel I kept it flatfile, since
the needs differ between systems and parts, between manuals
and boards, etc. Different things fit different spots.
John A.
6:10 a.m.
New subject: Optical mouse pad
Anybody have one spare or a link to seller?
TIA / IAO / PAM
John A.
6:14 a.m.
New subject: Optical mouse pad
For the Sun style mice, there are a number of different sized grids,
which must be matched with the particular mouse.
What type of mouse do you have?
--tom
At 11:10 AM 5/13/2004 -0400, you wrote:
Anybody have one spare or a link to seller?
TIA / IAO / PAM
John A.
8:33 a.m.
New subject: Optical mouse pad
Anybody have
one [optical mouse pad] spare or a link to seller?
For the Sun style mice, there
are a number of different sized grids,
which must be matched with the particular mouse. What type of mouse do you have?
Yes, that was my first question too: "an optical pad for what kind of
mouse?".
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
8:43 a.m.
New subject: Optical mouse pad
On Thu, 13 May 2004 11:10:11 -0400
"John Allain" <allain(a)panix.com> wrote:
Anybody have one spare or a link to seller?
Draw
a grid, print it with a 600 dpi laser printer on transparent foil,
mount it on a alu tin sheet. (Or make a sandwich transparent foil, alu
foil, printed transparent foil) This worked well for my type 4 und 5 Sun
optical rodents.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
13 May
13 May
8:54 a.m.
On the subject of databases. I think they're too
"Robot
friendly" and that may be more an opportunity for the
unfriendly than the friendly. Look how neat eMail and
NewsGroups were for years, and then people got the spark of
an idea for spam. Right now I get 300 spams a day, and that
costs a lot of time. I think if you list out your whole
collection to a database that
creates an opportunity for some kind of unfriendly
approaches, I don't think I'll know what exactly they'll be
until they're a problem.
John, this is exactly why we held back on the collections directory in VCM,
why email addresses are not exposed anywhere on the interface, and why many
"bulk" transactions like looking at the entire list of items or the wanted
list requires you to log in as a registered user first. I would have to say,
we are "robot wary." :-)
Ashley said:
Is there a way to see a list of all the registered
members and their interests? What I'd like to do
is produce a list of all registered users who are
interested in PDP-11's, for example.
It would be easy to provide this since the data is all there, the real
question is, what will you do with that info? The use you have in mind may
be strictly honorable, but not everyone plays by the same rule book and
moral standards. Sadly, the honor system doesn't work these days. Even
right now on VCM, we have member-to-member "spam" in the form of low-ball
offers on listed items and shall we say "un-sportsman-like" commentary in
reply to refusals. I imagine that would increase dramatically if one could
see everything someone had, not just what they had for sale. We don't want
to be in the role of "spam cop", handling complaints, reviewing emails and
passing judgement, and handing out sentences to members. That's a big
concern for us. It also wouldn't take a lot of that activity to irritate
people, and then they'd mark their collections private, and after enough of
that, the feature loses its value anyway.
I don't want to say we're not open to the idea. We're are going to try it.
To paraphrase John's comment, we wont' really know if this is a problem, or
what the real problem is if any at all, until we get there.
And thanks to all of you who are supporting this project. Traffic is way up
and some really interesting things are posted, and it's a great reward for
us to see people buying and selling every day.
Patrick
12 May
12 May
12:51 p.m.
On Wed, 12 May 2004, Ashley Carder wrote:
Has anyone on here ever thought about putting up a
site that
documents the collector interest or areas of specialty for the
folks who visit here?
If this sounds like a good idea, I'll create a site and host it.
It could have things like a "wish list", "current inventory",
"items for trade/sale", etc.
I know some of this type of thing exists elsewhere, such as
on Sellam's VCM site, but I haven't seen a place where I can
go to find individuals who have specific computers, parts, wants,
etc.
Other ideas and opinions are welcome. If this kind of thing
already exists, just enlighten me as to where it is located.
Version Dos of the VCM will be coming out soon and will address a lot of
this.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
2:18 p.m.
At 03:51 PM 5/12/04 -0400, Ashley Carder wrote:
Has anyone on here ever thought about putting up a site
that
documents the collector interest or areas of specialty for the
folks who visit here?
Maybe something like a profile, lots of check boxes etc. places for urls etc.
Thats the easy part, who has access and what kind etc. is the hard question
7380
days inactive
7382
days old
40 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
allain＠panix.com -
brianmahoney＠look.ca -
dickset＠amanda.spole.gov -
evan947＠yahoo.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
patrick＠vintagecomputermarketplace.com -
torquil＠chemist.com -
uban＠ubanproductions.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
wacarder＠usit.net