17 Apr
2011
17 Apr
'11
11:29 a.m.
I think the mole is defined from the number of attons
in a certain mass
of a certain isotope of an certain element (carbon 12 IIRC)
The mole is the amount of a substance which contains Avogadro's number
(6.0225 ? 10^23 ) of atoms or molecules of the substance.
Stated differently, it is the same amount of grammes of the substance as
that element's molecular weight.
The definition says that it is the amount of a substance which contains
the same number of molecules of the substance as 12 grammes of
carbon-12, which is a way of expressing the number of molecules in such
a manner that the required number of molecules can be provided by means
of weighing, which involves a comparison :-)
I suppose Tony's teacher would have wanted him to measure out a mole of
sugar by counting the number of molecules of sugar...
/Jonas
18 Apr
18 Apr
10:56 a.m.
I think the mole is defined from the number of
attons in a certain mass
of a certain isotope of an certain element (carbon 12 IIRC)
The mole is the amount of a substance which contains Avogadro's number=20
(6.0225 =D7 10^23 ) of atoms or molecules of the substance. Stated differently, it is the same amount of grammes
of the substance as=20
that element's molecular weight.
The definition says that it is the amount of a substance which contains=20
the same number of molecules of the substance as 12 grammes of=20
carbon-12, which is a way of expressing the number of molecules in such=20
I have an idea that the definition I came across specifies Carbon-12.
Since the atomic masses are not exact integer rations of each other (in
other words, an oxygen-16 atom is not exactly 4/3 of the mass of a
carbon-12 atom), I think you do have to specify the element you are using
here.
-tony
4:07 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
At 12:56 PM 4/18/2011, you wrote:
Sure. Defining the mole is equivalent to defining Avogadro's number. But
that's similar to saying that as the electonic charge is 1.602*10^-19C, a
colomob is the charge on 6.24*10^18 electrons. so defining the coulomb
is equivalent to definint that number
I saw this on the bathroom wall at school once:
"For a good time, call Avogadro, 6.02x10^23."
I elected not to investigate further.
345 . [Computing] `... if we wish to count lines
of code, we should not regard them as "lines
produced" but as "lines spent." ' --Edsger Dijkstra
NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square
EN53wc
LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician
? Registered Linux User 385531
I think the mole is defined from the number of
attons in a certain mass
of a certain isotope of an certain element (carbon 12 IIRC)
The mole is the amount of a substance which contains Avogadro's number=20
(6.0225 =D7 10^23 ) of atoms or molecules of the substance. Stated differently, it is the same amount of
grammes of the substance as=20
that element's molecular weight.
The definition says that it is the amount of a substance which contains=20
the same number of molecules of the substance as 12 grammes of=20
carbon-12, which is a way of expressing the number of molecules in such=20
I have an idea that the definition I came across specifies Carbon-12.
Since the atomic masses are not exact integer rations of each other (in
other words, an oxygen-16 atom is not exactly 4/3 of the mass of a
carbon-12 atom), I think you do have to specify the element you are using
here. 
5:08 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 19/04/2011 00:07, Tom wrote:
At 12:56 PM 4/18/2011, you wrote:
> I have an idea that the definition I came across specifies Carbon-12.
> Since the atomic masses are not exact integer rations of each other (in
> other words, an oxygen-16 atom is not exactly 4/3 of the mass of a
> carbon-12 atom), I think you do have to specify the element you are using
> here.
Trying to remember my Chemistry A level from 25 years ago....
I believe that an Atomic Mass Unit (AMU), is defined as 1/12 of the mass
of a Carbon 12 neucleus. The reason for choosing C-12 is that it has an
equal number of protons and neutrons, so the slight difference in mass
is averaged out. In the past Hydrogen was used but since (the most
common isotope) of Hydrogen only contains 1 proton, this lead to
descrepancies for any nucleus with neutrons in.
A Mole is really just an abitary amount of a substance that contains the
same number of particals as a mole of any other substance, that is
Avigadro's number. This is usefull when working with chemical formulas
such as :
2 H2 + O2 ----> 2 H2O
You know that s molecules of Hydrogen react with 1 molecule of Oxygen to
give 2 molecules of Water.
Or to put it another way 2 moles of H2 with 1 mole of O2 produce 2 moles
of water.
More practically 4 grams of Hydrogen + 32 gamms of Oxygen produce 36
gramms of Water.
I think I rememberd it correctly......
Cheers.
Phill.
--
Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric !
"You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush.
19 Apr
19 Apr
1:34 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 19/04/2011 00:07, Tom wrote:
Yes, but it's hardly unique in that. So does oxygen 16 )8 of each),
helium 4 (2 of each), etc.
Hwoever, a carbon 12 atom does not have _exactly_ 3 times the mass of a
helium 4 atom. The difference is minute, but when you're defining a unit,
it matters.
At 12:56 PM 4/18/2011, you wrote:
> I have an idea that the definition I came across specifies Carbon-12.
> Since the atomic masses are not exact integer rations of each other (in
> other words, an oxygen-16 atom is not exactly 4/3 of the mass of a
> carbon-12 atom), I think you do have to specify the element you are using
> here.
Trying to remember my Chemistry A level from 25 years ago....
I believe that an Atomic Mass Unit (AMU), is defined as 1/12 of the mass
of a Carbon 12 neucleus. The reason for choosing C-12 is that it has an
equal number of protons and neutrons, so the slight difference in mass is averaged out. In the past Hydrogen was used but
since (the most
Oxygen 16 was also used at one time (a different time :-))
common isotope) of Hydrogen only contains 1 proton,
this lead to
descrepancies for any nucleus with neutrons in.
Actually you could pic any atom you liked as the basis of the definiton.
The thing is that the exact value of Avogadro's number depends on which
atom you use. So you have to specify one.
-tony
18 Apr
18 Apr
7:09 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
Oh it is big, very big number - as a retired chemist, nice to see chemistry in action !!!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom <a50mhzham at gmail.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:11 pm
Subject: Avogadro's number
At 12:56 PM 4/18/2011, you wrote:
Sure. Defining the mole is equivalent to defining Avogadro's number. But
that's similar to saying that as the electonic charge is 1.602*10^-19C, a
colomob is the charge on 6.24*10^18 electrons. so defining the coulomb
is equivalent to definint that number
I think the mole is defined from the number of
attons in a certain mass
of a certain isotope of an certain element (carbon 12 IIRC)
The mole is the amount of a substance which contains Avogadro's number=20
(6.0225 =D7 10^23 ) of atoms or molecules of the substance. Stated differently, it is the same amount of grammes
of the substance as=20
that element's molecular weight.
The definition says that it is the amount of a substance which contains=20
the same number of molecules of the substance as 12 grammes of=20
carbon-12, which is a way of expressing the number of molecules in such=20
I have an idea that the definition I came across specifies Carbon-12.
Since the atomic masses are not exact integer rations of each other (in
other words, an oxygen-16 atom is not exactly 4/3 of the mass of a
carbon-12 atom), I think you do have to specify the element you are using
here.
I saw this on the bathroom wall at school once:
For a good time, call Avogadro, 6.02x10^23."
I elected not to investigate further.
45 . [Computing] `... if we wish to count lines
f code, we should not regard them as "lines
roduced" but as "lines spent." ' --Edsger Dijkstra
EW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio)
HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK
3? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square
EN53wc
AN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician
Registered Linux User 385531
7:01 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 4/19/11 6:11 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Tom wrote:
Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole bunch' as in
"I just got a mole of floppy cables"
Since most people have no idea how many a mole is.
I saw this on the bathroom wall at school once:
"For a good time, call
Avogadro, 6.02x10^23."
And, as we know, one Avogadro makes one Mole sauce.
7:17 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 19/04/2011 15:01, Al Kossow wrote:
Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole
bunch' as in
"I just got a mole of floppy cables"
Since most people have no idea how many a mole is.
That's a **LOT** of floppy drives......wonder how long a mole of floppy
cables would be if laid end to end......
Cheers.
Phill.
7:23 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On Tuesday 19 April 2011, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote:
On 19/04/2011 15:01, Al Kossow wrote:
Assuming they're each 1ft long, that's over 19e6 light years according
to google.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Mole is also a good approximation for 'a
whole bunch' as in
"I just got a mole of floppy cables"
Since most people have no idea how many a mole is.
That's a **LOT** of floppy drives......wonder how long a mole of
floppy cables would be if laid end to end...... 
12:56 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
Since most people have no idea how many a mole is.
That's a **LOT** of floppy drives......wonder how long a mole of
floppy cables would be if laid end to end......
2:07 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
That's a **LOT** of floppy drives......wonder how
long a mole of floppy
cables would be if laid end to end......
I've guessed they're 0.5m long each (seems about right).
In which case I calculate (or rather my HP48 calculates) that a mole of
them would br about 32 million lightyears long...
-tony
8:47 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:07 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Avogadro's number
Thus requiring a "Hitchhiker's Garage to the Galaxy" to store them.
That's a **LOT** of floppy drives......wonder
how long a mole of
floppy
cables would be if laid end to end......
I've guessed they're 0.5m long each (seems about right).
In which case I calculate (or rather my HP48 calculates) that a mole
of
them would br about 32 million lightyears long...
9:43 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 19 Apr 2011 at 7:01, Al Kossow wrote:
Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole
bunch' as in
"I just got a mole of floppy cables"
Since most people have no idea how many a mole is.
One mole is enough to make a mess out of your lawn. On the other
hand, I've found that a ratsnake can keep the number of moles in
check. Maybe the snake should be called Avogadro?
--Chuck
9:59 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 7:01 AM
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Avogadro's number
On 4/19/11 6:11 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole bunch' as in
"I just got a mole of floppy cables"
Since most people have no idea how many a mole is.
I once had a chemistry professor who talked about having a mole of Volkswagens. It was
his way to say that a mole is like a dozen or a score, just bigger.
He drove a Land Rover - I had to ask. -- Ian
Tom wrote:
> I saw this on the bathroom wall at school once: "For a good time,
call
Avogadro,
6.02x10^23."
And, as we know, one Avogadro makes one Mole sauce.
2:03 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole
bunch' as in
"I just got a mole of floppy cables"
Since most people have no idea how many a mole is.
I am, however, sure that I cou;dn't fit a mole of floppy disks in my
workshop amd that I wouldn't have time to load each one to read it. Heck,
I am pretty sure that the total number of floppies ever manufactured
would come close ot being a mole of them
-tony
8:38 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 4/19/11 9:11 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
ROFL!!
Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out
a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this
way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I saw this on
the bathroom wall at school once: "For a good time, call
Avogadro, 6.02x10^23."
And, as we know, one Avogadro makes one Mole sauce. 
8:54 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks
ago. It turned out
a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this
way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again.
The on-list physician is suitably horrified. And would like to watch.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- lp0 reported invalid error status (on fire, eh?) -- Linux 1.1.62 -----------
9:47 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 4/19/11 11:54 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Whatsamatta, you don't like mole sauce?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Hey
Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out
a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this
way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again.
The on-list physician is suitably horrified. And would like to watch.
2:01 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago.
It turned out
a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this
way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again.
The on-list physician is suitably horrified. And would like to watch.
2:30 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 4/19/11 5:01 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Whatsamatta, you don't like mole sauce?
No, more the anaphylaxis part. It's hard to instruct people on emergency
field intubation over E-mail. Too much latency and the patients die. ;)
Emergency Field Intubation. I think I saw a band by that name in
Baltimore once.
Hey Sridhar,
Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out
a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this
way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again.
The on-list physician is suitably horrified. And would like to watch. Although, I'm not too wild about mole; I've
had too many dishes that abused
it at the cost of other flavours.
More for me! =)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
12:50 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 8:55 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Avogadro's number
We have an on-list physician? Cool!
Hey Doc, I have this pain... probably from pushing around 300 lb. disk drives.... -- Ian
Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few
weeks ago. It turned
out
a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next
time you head out
this
way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk
her into making it
again.
The on-list physician is suitably horrified. And would like to watch.
1:57 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
Hey Doc, I have this pain... probably from pushing
around 300 lb. disk
drives.... -- Ian
"Doc, it hurts when I do this."
"Then don't do that."
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Experience varies directly with amount of equipment ruined. ----------------
9:24 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks
ago. It turned out
a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this
way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again.
Mind translating the joke to a Brazilian non-phisician friend? :oO
9:45 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 4/19/11 12:24 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Ah, it wasn't really a joke! :) Mole sauce (as you know) is based on
chocolate, and Sridhar is allergic to chocolate. He can eat it if he
takes a lot of benadryl first.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Hey Sridhar,
Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out a
tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this
way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again.
Mind translating the joke to a Brazilian non-phisician friend? :oO 
9:55 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:45:49 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote:
Ah, it wasn't really a joke! :) Mole sauce (as
you know) is based on
chocolate, and Sridhar is allergic to chocolate. He can eat it if he
takes a lot of benadryl first.
-Dave
Is that subject to HIPAA disclosure of some kind :)
The Other Bob
10:05 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
Mind
translating the joke to a Brazilian non-phisician friend? :oO
Ah, it wasn't
really a joke! :) Mole sauce (as you know) is based on
chocolate, and Sridhar is allergic to chocolate. He can eat it if he
takes a lot of benadryl first.
10:11 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 4/19/11 1:05 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Well, I didn't know what mole sauce was :) Nor Benadryl...Better use
google first, next time :) Thanks anyway! :D
Ah, I thought mole sauce was also a part of Brazilian cuisine. I
just looked it up; it is purely Mexican...about as far from you as I am. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_%28sauce%29
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Mind translating the joke to a Brazilian non-phisician
friend? :oO
Ah, it wasn't really a joke! :) Mole sauce (as you know) is based
on
chocolate, and Sridhar is allergic to chocolate. He can eat it if he
takes a lot of benadryl first.
10:30 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
Ah, I thought mole sauce was also a part of
Brazilian cuisine. I just
looked it up; it is purely Mexican...about as far from you as I am. :)
Ah, you also thinks I speak spanish and the our downtown is buenos
aires? ;oD
I'd love to know why most americans thinks we speak spanish :) Maybe
because for the one that doesn't know portuguese or spanish, the languages
are very alike...
10:58 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 4/19/11 1:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
No, I am very proud of the fact that I know a little bit about your
part of the world. :) I dated a Colombian girl for a long time, and she
educated me. I also have some Brazilian friends. :)
I just thought mole sauce was common in much of South America, but
was mistaken. Julia (my Colombian ex-girlfriend) introduced me to it as
something she'd had many times before she moved here.
It is very true, and very sad, that many (most?) Americans think that
anyone who has slightly darker skin and is from ANY country south of the
USA is automatically "Mexican", speaks Spanish, and all eat the same
kind of food. I apologize on their behalf.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Ah, I thought
mole sauce was also a part of Brazilian cuisine. I just
looked it up; it is purely Mexican...about as far from you as I am. :)
Ah, you also thinks I speak spanish and the our downtown is buenos
aires? ;oD
I'd love to know why most americans thinks we speak spanish :) Maybe
because for the one that doesn't know portuguese or spanish, the
languages are very alike...
11:07 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
It is very true, and very sad, that many (most?)
Americans think that
anyone who has slightly darker skin and is from ANY country south of the
USA is automatically "Mexican", speaks Spanish, and all eat the same kind
of food. I apologize on their behalf.
Nah, no problem, yo tambien hablo espanol :) I don't think it is a shame
that most people don't know nuts about my country...but there are lots of
wonderful things to be discovered here :)
End of offtopic, lets talk computers! :D
11:16 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 4/19/11 1:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
It is very true, and very sad, that many (most?) Americans think that
anyone who has slightly darker skin and is from ANY country south of the USA
is automatically "Mexican", speaks Spanish, and all eat the same kind of
food. I apologize on their behalf.
+1 Dave. They're likely of the same subset that thinks it's entirely
possible to see Russia from Wasilla, AK. *rolls eyes*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
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Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Ah, I
thought mole sauce was also a part of Brazilian cuisine. I just
looked it up; it is purely Mexican...about as far from you as I am. :)
Ah, you also thinks I speak spanish and the our downtown is buenos
aires? ;oD
I'd love to know why most americans thinks we speak spanish :) Maybe
because for the one that doesn't know portuguese or spanish, the
languages are very alike... 
12:03 p.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
Gene Buckle wrote:
+1 Dave. They're likely of the same subset that
thinks it's entirely
possible to see Russia from Wasilla, AK. *rolls eyes*
You can see Russia from Wasilla, AK. You need to use a camera,
encoder/decoders, uplinks, and a satellite, but it can be done.
Peace... Sridhar
11:05 a.m.
New subject: Avogadro's number
On 19 Apr 2011 at 14:30, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I'd love to know why most americans thinks we
speak spanish :) Maybe
because for the one that doesn't know portuguese or spanish, the
languages are very alike...
Most Americans couldn't find Brazil on a world map. Probably one-
third thinks that it's in Europe. I suspect that fewer than one in
ten could name the capital.
--Chuck
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