13 Nov
2002
13 Nov
'02
9:05 a.m.
I find that sellers auctions disturbing, since at least one the boards has a
comment of "just removed from the rack" : (
Will J
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
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13 Nov
13 Nov
3:12 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Will Jennings wrote:
I find that sellers auctions disturbing, since at
least one the boards
has a comment of "just removed from the rack" : (
I find the whole practice of "chip collecting" a bit disturbing. Mainly
because it means functioning, useful, components are becoming scarcer
for those people who could actually put them to use. And then
secondarily, it creates a market for the willful destruction of what
might be otherwise working systems or subsystems.
There's difficulty in attempting to educate people that working systems
are more interesting, and valuable, than disassembled bits of them. It
/is/ solely a matter of viewpoint, and not everyone has the skills or
resources to collect like most people here do, but getting even a few of
them to see things our way is progress.
Evangelizing on the behalf of classic computing is something we all
should be doing. I tend to do a lot of that when it comes to my VAXen.
And where permitted, I always have a classic computer or two on the
network at my workplace. The NeXT that's beside my new iMac at work
always raises eyebrows and generates a lot of questions.
Other things that help are contributing to the various computer museums
(money, unique equipment, your time, etc.) Providing information to
people on this list is useful. The documentation scanning projects are
wonderful resources. The publicity generated by things like the VCF is
good; Sellam getting visibity in Wired and on Tech TV raises awareness
in a broader audience than could be otherwise achieved. And I think
books like _Collectible Microcomputers_ and Christian Wurster's
_Computers: An Illustrated History_ are useful to have lying around as
coffee table material.
-brian.
3:54 p.m.
New subject: name that DEC control panel!
anyone know what machine this panel comes from?
The seller claims it's a PDP-11 but I don't see enough bits.
Possibly a PDP-8 or educational unit? I've never seen the
lights along the side - on an '11..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2070195230
regards,
Heinz
4:12 p.m.
New subject: name that DEC control panel!
At 04:54 PM 11/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
anyone know what machine this panel comes from?
The seller claims it's a PDP-11 but I don't see enough bits.
Possibly a PDP-8 or educational unit? I've never seen the
lights along the side - on an '11..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2070195230
regards,
Heinz
Here is one of the many responses when I asked a similar question.
--tom
X-Sender: healyzh(a)mail.aracnet.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:17:41 -0800
To: info-pdp11(a)village.org
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com>
Subject: DEC Microprocessor Series (was: What is this?)
Sender: owner-info-pdp11(a)village.org
Would someone please tell me what this is and what
it was used for? From the
picture, it seems to be more 8 bit oriented than 16 bit.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2070195230
From the 1974 "MPS Microprocessor Series
User's Handbook":
"1.1 Introduction
Digital Equipment Corporation's Microprocessor Series (MPS) consists of a
group of four M series modules and an optional operators control panel,
designed to efficiently perform a range of process control and
decision-making functions that were previously uneconomic subjects for
automation. When used together, these modules can from low-cost digital
control systems that exhibit the characteristics normally attributed to
more costly minicomputer-based systems. With this capability, systems
structured from MPS modules can perform the functions of dedicated
controllers, operate as a Central Processor Unit (CPU) in intellegent
terminals, perform data aquisition and analysis tasks in the laboratory,
and automate a host of industrial processes
1.2
General Description
The Microprocessor Series is listed below by model number and name:
* M7341 Processor Module
* M7344-YA 1K Read/Write Memory Module
* M7344-YB 2K Read/Write Memory Module
* M7344-YC 4K Read/Write Memory Module
* M7345 Programmable Read-Only Memory Module
* M7346 External Event Detection Module
* KC341 Monitor/Control Panel
In a systems context, the M7341 Processor Module (PM) acts as the central
processor unit with the remaining modules performing supporting functions.
Activity in a given system, then, is directed by a unique stored program
contained in a read/write and/or a programmable read-only memory and
executed by the PM. A major factor in the structuring of an MPS system for
a specific application is the development of this unique system program by
the user. To support user development of application software, Digital
provides the Microprocessor Series Software Tools (MPSST) package that
includes the following routines:
* Microprocessor Langauge Editor (MLE)
* Microprocessor Langauge Assembler (MLA)
* Microprocessor Read-Only Memory Programmer (MRP)
* Microprocessor Host Loader (MHL)
* Microprocessor Debugging Program (MDP)
* Master Tape Duplicator (MTD)
In addition, the Microprocessor Program Loader (MPL) is available to users
of the optional KC341 Monitor Control Panel."
In looking further at the handbook it appears that the MPSST package is run
on a PDP-8/e, /f or /m and is papertape based. The MRP expects a MR873
PROM writer to be used in conjunction with the PDP-8.
Looks like an interesting device, to bad the one on ebay is just the front
panel.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
----------
To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to
info-pdp11-request(a)village.org, with the first line of the message
body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the
quotes). 
8:29 p.m.
New subject: name that DEC control panel!
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, Heinz Wolter wrote:
anyone know what machine this panel comes from? The
seller claims it's a
PDP-11 but I don't see enough bits.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2070195230
I saw this over on info-pdp11:
Right you are. This was DEC's first foray into
microprocessors. The
CPU was an Intel 8008, which is why you see the lights grouped by 6 and 8.
The 8008 only had a 14-bit address bus.
I _think_ that it's just the control panel. I never had one but I do
remember them being sold around 1975 or so. I might even have a
brochure on it, but it would be rather deeply buried in the archives.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
4:01 p.m.
New subject: SDI drives on epay 24$ for 2x 1gig
some nice dives for someone with an SDI controller such as a
uda50/kda50... was someone looking for some a while ago?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2071009677
regards
Heinz
14 Nov
14 Nov
8:58 a.m.
New subject: SDI drives on epay 24$ for 2x 1gig
some nice dives for someone with an SDI controller
such as a
uda50/kda50... was someone looking for some a while ago?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2071009677
I think it was Sridhar
Still there, 4 days left, $12/ea.
I have bought from these people and will vouch: No problems.
John A.
1:07 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Brian Chase wrote:
I find the whole practice of "chip
collecting" a bit disturbing. Mainly
because it means functioning, useful, components are becoming scarcer
for those people who could actually put them to use. And then
secondarily, it creates a market for the willful destruction of what
might be otherwise working systems or subsystems.
I totally agree. Chip collectors are focused mainly on the one part they
are after, and I can imagine a rare board that could bring a rare system
back to life being stripped of a few ICs considered "gems" without
consideration given to the whole.
There's difficulty in attempting to educate people
that working systems
are more interesting, and valuable, than disassembled bits of them. It
/is/ solely a matter of viewpoint, and not everyone has the skills or
resources to collect like most people here do, but getting even a few of
them to see things our way is progress.
I'm not going to outright condemn chip collectors as they are definitely
preserving information and artifacts, but they need to be mindful of
computer collectors and not leave a pile of debris in their wake in
pursuit of their hobby.
That being said, I agree that a piece of silicon sitting there doing
nothing is nowhere near as interesting as the greater machine that it is
helping to make work.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
11:03 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
I collect a few chips, but I'd rather have a whole
working machine that I can demonstrate. You've got to
admit, a set of chips I've got in a shadowbox on my
wall - the 4004 to Pentium Pro - takes up a lot less
space than the machines, generally! I puke when I see
the word "rare" in the ePay ads. There are some
unbeleivably idiotic gems on ebay right now (like the
RARE!!!! 1977 8251 CPU!!!!!, for example).
--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Brian Chase wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find the whole practice of "chip
collecting" a
bit disturbing. Mainly
because it means functioning, useful, components
are becoming scarcer
for those people who could actually put them to
use. And then
secondarily, it creates a market for the willful
destruction of what
might be otherwise working systems or subsystems.
I totally agree. Chip collectors are focused mainly
on the one part they
are after, and I can imagine a rare board that could
bring a rare system
back to life being stripped of a few ICs considered
"gems" without
consideration given to the whole.
There's difficulty in attempting to educate
people
that working systems
are more interesting, and valuable, than
disassembled bits of them. It
/is/ solely a matter of viewpoint, and not
everyone has the skills or
resources to collect like most people here do,
but
getting even a few of
them to see things our way is progress.
I'm not going to outright condemn chip collectors as
they are definitely
preserving information and artifacts, but they need
to be mindful of
computer collectors and not leave a pile of debris
in their wake in
pursuit of their hobby.
That being said, I agree that a piece of silicon
sitting there doing
nothing is nowhere near as interesting as the
greater machine that it is
helping to make work.
Sellam Ismail
Vintage Computer Festival
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia
at www.VintageTech.com *
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
15 Nov
15 Nov
10:01 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
I'm a chip collector and I would like to take a moment to defend my hobby.
1. Most chip collectors are very particular about protecting their chips.
We just don't
throw them in the bottom of a drawer like some "computer enthusiasts".
I could not
count the times that I've bought chips on EBAY auctions that were
displayed
loose in a coffee can from someone who had found them in grandpa's
shop.
Do you really think these chips are better off going in the trash than
into some
chip collectors collection?
2. Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors collection it's not gone from
the face
of the earth. It's carefully preserved for future generations.
3. The argument that a chip is better off inside a vintage computer is like
saying
a coin is better off in circulation serving its "intended" purpose than
in some
collectors collection.
4. Many of the chips that chip collectors pay alot of money for are "rare"
varieties
of "common" chips. For example, an Intel C8080 vs. C8080A. Vintage
computer enthusiasts don't "need" an Intel C8080. In fact, you would
probably
be better off with the more common and "improved" C8080A.
5. I think that alot of vintage computer enthusiasts think that chip
collectors are
out there busting up Altair 8800's with sledge hammers to get the chips
out of
them. That's simply not true. Chip collectors hang out on in the same
areas of EBAY that you do. We know full well what rare machines are
worth.
I'll assure you, chip collectors are not breaking up old machines for
chips.
In fact, it's just the opposite. I know a number of vintage machines
that have
been "saved" by chip collectors because they recognized what they were.
6. There are FAR more chips than there are vintage computers. Without chip
collectors there would not be much of a market for all these chips.
Sure
you would be able to buy an C8008 for 1$ then but... You would also
have
people throwing the old chips in the trash because they were not worth
listing on EBAY.
If you really want a supply of vintage chips for your vintage machines
in
20-30 years then you should be glad that a C8008 brings $100 on EBAY
because of chip collectors. The reason you should be glad is because
as the
word gets out that the early chips are worth money, less of them will
end up
in the trash.
7. Chips collectors will often sell chips for LESS than you would pay for
them
from a parts distributor. Also, many distributors will not sell small
quantities.
I have sold spare chips out of my collection to vintage computer
enthusiasts.
Most collectors have "spares" that they acquire for trading. If you
need a
particular chip, changes are good that you can get one from a collector
if
you offer the collector some other chip that you have several of.
8. There's only a handful of "serious" collectors who are willing to pay
$500-$1000 for rare versions of early chips. Most chip
collectors collect 186's, 286's, 386's, 486's, etc. In otherwords,
chips that
vintage computer enthusiasts don't really care about anyway.
The only thing vintage computer enthusiasts notice is that old chips
routinely
bring hundreds of dollars of EBAY. What you don't notice is that it's
the same
group of a dozen collectors that are buying them. If the handful of
serious chip
collectors were to each obtain an example of every chip every made, it
would
not have much effect at all on the ability of vintage computer
enthusiasts to
obtain replacement parts for your machines. If you want to blame
someone
for the high price of vintage chips, blame the people who melted down
millions
of them for their gold content in the 80's, don't blame the handful of
serious
chip collectors.
9. I agree that a functioning vintage machine is "more interesting" than a
chip
in a display case. Most vintage chip collectors drool over the vintage
machines
that you guys have and not because of the chips in them either. That
said,
we also recognize that the chips themselves have historic value and
should
be preserved. Many chip collectors would like to one day obtain a
working vintage machine but I know more than a few who have abandoned
this idea once they figured out that many vintage computer enthusiasts
have such a negative view of chip collectors.
That said, it's alot easier to get into chip collecting than vintage
computer
collecting. Chip collecting has the potential to bring alot of new
faces
into the world of vintage computers but unfortunately I don't see that
happening any time soon.
What many of you old timers don't realize it that the "youngsters"
that
came
along after the 8088 naturally see computers as a collection of
components.
Computer enthusiasts today don't buy prebuilt machines, they build them
from components and then constantly upgrade them. The very concept of
of collecting an entire machine is foreign to them because their
machines
are constantly changing.
That said, many of these types already have chip collections, their
collections are old
CPU's they saved when they upgraded their machines over the years. You
bring
up chip collecting and they say that's pretty cool, I already have a
small collection.
The same younger computer enthusiasts are the very people you need to
keep your
hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the same people will try and
entire
your world from the world of chip collecting and be totally turned off
by your
attitudes toward chip collectors.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Chase" <vaxzilla(a)jarai.org>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:13 PM
Subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Will Jennings wrote:
I find that sellers auctions disturbing, since at
least one the boards
has a comment of "just removed from the rack" : (
I find the whole practice of "chip collecting" a bit disturbing. Mainly
because it means functioning, useful, components are becoming scarcer
for those people who could actually put them to use. And then
secondarily, it creates a market for the willful destruction of what
might be otherwise working systems or subsystems.
There's difficulty in attempting to educate people that working systems
are more interesting, and valuable, than disassembled bits of them. It
/is/ solely a matter of viewpoint, and not everyone has the skills or
resources to collect like most people here do, but getting even a few of
them to see things our way is progress.
Evangelizing on the behalf of classic computing is something we all
should be doing. I tend to do a lot of that when it comes to my VAXen.
And where permitted, I always have a classic computer or two on the
network at my workplace. The NeXT that's beside my new iMac at work
always raises eyebrows and generates a lot of questions.
Other things that help are contributing to the various computer museums
(money, unique equipment, your time, etc.) Providing information to
people on this list is useful. The documentation scanning projects are
wonderful resources. The publicity generated by things like the VCF is
good; Sellam getting visibity in Wired and on Tech TV raises awareness
in a broader audience than could be otherwise achieved. And I think
books like _Collectible Microcomputers_ and Christian Wurster's
_Computers: An Illustrated History_ are useful to have lying around as
coffee table material.
-brian.
16 Nov
16 Nov
10:47 a.m.
New subject: Chip Collecting
John Galt wrote:
I'm a chip collector and I would like to take a moment to defend my hobby.
<snip>
No need to defend your hobby. I really haven't seen anyone complain
about chip collectors, and anyone that does is probably a miniscule part
of the number of people in our hobby.
Are there any good web sites to look up chips that might be collectable?
As a for instance, I received quite a few chips including a few with
"Engineering Sample" on them when a friend died who had collected a LOT
of manuals, parts, machines, catalogs, etc. There were even some adapter
boards I had made for to change the footprint of some 64 bit multiplier
chips. I won't throw them away, but it would be great to have a
reference site. What about early sample kits? I also have a friend of
mine who collected quite a number of chips including some that were
never released except in limited quanities, and I am SURE he would be
interested in finding a buyer for some of his stuff. He doesn't collect
per se but was using them for projects (he designed and sold a box to
add color to early TRS computers.)
10:48 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
Oh no, another rant from a pseudonym.
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
I'm a chip collector and I would like to take a
moment to defend my hobby.
1. Most chip collectors are very particular about protecting their chips.
We just don't
throw them in the bottom of a drawer like some "computer enthusiasts".
I don't know of any computer you can just "throw in the bottom of a
drawer" (unless you're talking about a Sinclair ZX81 or some handheld).
But even then, collectors don't throw their computers in the bottom of a
drawer.
I could not
count the times that I've bought chips on EBAY auctions that were
displayed
loose in a coffee can from someone who had found them in grandpa's
shop.
Do you really think these chips are better off going in the trash
than into some
chip collectors collection?
Yes, yes. We've heard your arguments before. But we aren't talking about
loose chips in a tin can. We're talking about pillaging working boards
for chips. If you're going to respond to a thread, at least respond
within the context (no straw men here).
2. Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors
collection it's not gone from
the face
of the earth. It's carefully preserved for future generations.
Yes, thank you. But hopefully it didn't come out of a board that is now
gone from the face of the Earth. For instance, what happened to that
Altair CPU board you bought because you wanted the CPU?
3. The argument that a chip is better off inside a
vintage computer is like
saying
a coin is better off in circulation serving its "intended" purpose than
in some
collectors collection.
If that's where the chip came from then yes, it is. By removing the chip
from a computer it once powered or helped work, you are
removing it from
its historical context. From a hobbyists point of view, you are
taking
something that once worked, removing one part of it that will make it
unfunctioning, and then relishing the one, now non-functioning, part over
the whole in which it once ran.
4. Many of the chips that chip collectors pay alot of
money for are "rare"
varieties
of "common" chips. For example, an Intel C8080 vs. C8080A. Vintage
computer enthusiasts don't "need" an Intel C8080. In fact, you would
probably
be better off with the more common and "improved" C8080A.
Well, chip collectors don't really "need" an Intel C8080 either, when a
C8080A will do quite nicely as a representative sample, right? Unless
you have a cereal box prize mentality and must "collect all 8!"
5. I think that alot of vintage computer enthusiasts
think that chip
collectors are
out there busting up Altair 8800's with sledge hammers to get the chips
out of
them. That's simply not true. Chip collectors hang out on in the same
areas of EBAY that you do. We know full well what rare machines are
worth.
I'll assure you, chip collectors are not breaking up old machines for
chips.
What happened to that Altair CPU board?
In fact, it's just the opposite. I know a
number of vintage machines
that have
been "saved" by chip collectors because they recognized what they were.
Examples? What happened to the chips?
If you really want a supply of vintage chips for
your vintage machines
in
20-30 years then you should be glad that a C8008 brings $100 on EBAY
because of chip collectors. The reason you should be glad is because
as the
word gets out that the early chips are worth money, less of them will
end up
in the trash.
You're assuming some chip collector 20-30 years down the road will be
willing to part with his rare C8008 that is now part of his amazing
collection of dead silicon. Because in all likelihood that's what it will
be anyway: dead.
that you guys have and not because of the chips
in them either. That
said,
we also recognize that the chips themselves have historic value and
should
be preserved.
And we do too. We're the greatest chip collectors because we have whole
computers full of them.
Many chip collectors would like to one day obtain a
working vintage machine but I know more than a few who have abandoned
this idea once they figured out that many vintage computer enthusiasts
have such a negative view of chip collectors.
Bullshit. You keep making this silly remark. I believe this is your
opinion and your opinion alone. You're not gaining any sympathy.
The same younger computer enthusiasts are the
very people you need to
keep your
hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the same people will try and
entire
your world from the world of chip collecting and be totally turned off
by your
attitudes toward chip collectors.
Blah blah. Name one chip collector that has been turned off by the
comments on this list. Now name all the chip collectors you steered away
from this list because you feel we are biased against
chip collectors.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
11:16 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
The vast majority of people on earth have no regard for computers greater
than 10 years old. Rather than criticize them, it's probably best to remain
silent and simply try to benefit from the waste stream as best as one can.
A good way of operating is to save what you can, and offer what you can't
save by networking with others (like making rescue announcements here).
If this amounts to taking chips from trash bound machines, then fine, but do
the networking first, since you're already here.
I will pull the machine from the trash, announce it, wait a week and then
return it to waste, provided it's not a keeper where I'll test it and then
clean it all up.
Format tip: line lengths less than 80 characters. 72 OK
Anybody know when we passed the point where 300M computers were
produced in the US, one per man-woman-child? My guess: 1997.
John A.
11:26 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
I would guess much earlier than that, maybe 1990. I do recall seeing
figures like that on one site, but I have no idea which one it was.
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, John Allain wrote:
Anybody know when we passed the point where 300M
computers were
produced in the US, one per man-woman-child? My guess: 1997.
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
Shady Lea, Rhode Island
"Casta est quam nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
11:24 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
The Altair board I bought because it contained an Intel C8080 CPU is
currently in my collection waiting on the day I obtain an Altair 8800 that
does not have an original
CPU board that I can restore back to original condition. Surprized?
I've actually bid on a number of Altair 8800's on EBAY but have not won one
yet.
What would I do with an Altair 8800? I'm not sure. I would like to have
one
simply for it's historic value but there's no way in hell I would hang out
with
people like you if that's what it took to restore it to working order.
Sellam, you
come off as an arrogant a-hole. It's a shame that the vintage computer
community can not find someone with a better bed side manner to promote your
hobby.
That said, I'm sure you are a brilliant dude and you probably think you are
doing
what's best for your hobby but I think you are going about it in the wrong
way.
Let me give you an example. "People" (lots of them), from kids doing book
reports, to chip collectors search the net looking for information on early
processors. What do they find? They find these threads on this forum and
they see you as an example of the kind of people involved with vintage
computers.
Then they email me. I give them whatever info I can to help them but they
usually end up volunteering a few comments about you. I'm sure this thread
will generate a number
of new emails like this over the next few months. Perhaps I should save
them and
post them here. Do you really want to know the kind of impression you are
giving thousands of people interested in vintage computers? I'll be glad to
show you. I think you might be surprized at who some of the people are and
what
they had to say about your previous posts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
> 1. Most chip collectors are very particular about protecting their
chips.
like
"rare"
chips
machines
That
abandoned
to
Festival
Oh no, another rant from a pseudonym.
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
> I'm a chip collector and I would like to take a moment to defend my
hobby.
> We just don't
> throw them in the bottom of a drawer like some "computer
enthusiasts".
I don't know of any computer you can just "throw in the bottom of a
drawer" (unless you're talking about a Sinclair ZX81 or some handheld).
But even then, collectors don't throw their computers in the bottom of a
drawer.
from
I could not
count the times that I've bought chips on EBAY auctions that were
displayed
loose in a coffee can from someone who had found them in grandpa's
shop.
Do you really think these chips are better off going in the trash
than into some
chip collectors collection?
Yes, yes. We've heard your arguments before. But we aren't talking about
loose chips in a tin can. We're talking about pillaging working boards
for chips. If you're going to respond to a thread, at least respond
within the context (no straw men here).
> 2. Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors collection it's not gone
the face
of the earth. It's carefully preserved for future generations.
Yes, thank you. But hopefully it didn't come out of a board that is now
gone from the face of the Earth. For instance, what happened to that
Altair CPU board you bought because you wanted the CPU?
> 3. The argument that a chip is better off inside a vintage computer is > saying
> a coin is better off in circulation serving its "intended" purpose
than
in some
collectors collection.
If that's where the chip came from then yes, it is. By removing the chip
from a computer it once powered or helped work, you are removing it from
its historical context. From a hobbyists point of view, you are taking
something that once worked, removing one part of it that will make it
unfunctioning, and then relishing the one, now non-functioning, part over
the whole in which it once ran.
> 4. Many of the chips that chip collectors pay alot of money for are
> varieties
> of "common" chips. For example, an Intel C8080 vs. C8080A.
Vintage
> computer enthusiasts don't
"need" an Intel C8080. In fact, you
would
probably
be better off with the more common and "improved" C8080A.
Well, chip collectors don't really "need" an Intel C8080 either, when a
C8080A will do quite nicely as a representative sample, right? Unless
you have a cereal box prize mentality and must "collect all 8!"
> 5. I think that alot of vintage computer enthusiasts think that chip
> collectors are
> out there busting up Altair 8800's with sledge hammers to get the
> out of
> them. That's simply not true. Chip collectors hang out on in the
same
> areas of EBAY that you do. We know full
well what rare machines
are
> worth.
> I'll assure you, chip collectors are not breaking up old machines
for
chips.
What happened to that Altair CPU board?
> In fact, it's just the opposite. I know a number of vintage
> that have
> been "saved" by chip collectors because they recognized what they
were.
Examples? What happened to the chips?
> If you really want a supply of vintage chips for your vintage
machines
> in
> 20-30 years then you should be glad that a C8008 brings $100 on
EBAY
> because of chip collectors. The reason you
should be glad is
because
> as the
> word gets out that the early chips are worth money, less of them
will
end up
in the trash.
You're assuming some chip collector 20-30 years down the road will be
willing to part with his rare C8008 that is now part of his amazing
collection of dead silicon. Because in all likelihood that's what it will
be anyway: dead.
> that you guys have and not because of the chips in them either. said,
we also recognize that the chips themselves have historic value and
should
be preserved.
And we do too. We're the greatest chip collectors because we have whole
computers full of them.
> Many chip collectors would like to one day obtain a
> working vintage machine but I know more than a few who have > this idea once they figured out that many
vintage computer
enthusiasts
have such
a negative view of chip collectors.
Bullshit. You keep making this silly remark. I believe this is your
opinion and your opinion alone. You're not gaining any sympathy.
> The same younger computer enthusiasts are the very people you need > keep your
> hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the same people will try
and
> entire
> your world from the world of chip collecting and be totally turned
off
by your
attitudes toward chip collectors.
Blah blah. Name one chip collector that has been turned off by the
comments on this list. Now name all the chip collectors you steered away
from this list because you feel we are biased against chip collectors.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at
www.VintageTech.com *
11:46 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
John,
Sellam sure doesn't speak for all of us. Just because he's being an ass,
doesn't mean we're all hostile to all chip collectors... Just the ones who
have no respect for OUR hobby, as you seem to be hostile to Sellam because he
has no respect for yours.
John Galt said:
The Altair board I bought because it contained an
Intel C8080 CPU is
currently in my collection waiting on the day I obtain an Altair 8800 that
does not have an original
CPU board that I can restore back to original condition. Surprized?
I've actually bid on a number of Altair 8800's on EBAY but have not won one
yet.
What would I do with an Altair 8800? I'm not sure. I would like to have
one
simply for it's historic value but there's no way in hell I would hang out
with
people like you if that's what it took to restore it to working order.
Sellam, you
come off as an arrogant a-hole. It's a shame that the vintage computer
community can not find someone with a better bed side manner to promote your
hobby.
That said, I'm sure you are a brilliant dude and you probably think you are
doing
what's best for your hobby but I think you are going about it in the wrong
way.
Let me give you an example. "People" (lots of them), from kids doing book
reports, to chip collectors search the net looking for information on early
processors. What do they find? They find these threads on this forum and
they see you as an example of the kind of people involved with vintage
computers.
Then they email me. I give them whatever info I can to help them but they
usually end up volunteering a few comments about you. I'm sure this thread
will generate a number
of new emails like this over the next few months. Perhaps I should save
them and
post them here. Do you really want to know the kind of impression you are
giving thousands of people interested in vintage computers? I'll be glad to
show you. I think you might be surprized at who some of the people are and
what
they had to say about your previous posts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
like
"rare"
chips
machines
That
abandoned
to
Festival
- Dan Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan
Oh no, another rant from a pseudonym.
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
> I'm a chip collector and I would like to take a moment to defend my
hobby.
>
> 1. Most chip collectors are very particular about protecting their
chips.
> We just don't
> throw them in the bottom of a drawer like some "computer
enthusiasts".
I don't know of any computer you can just "throw in the bottom of a
drawer" (unless you're talking about a Sinclair ZX81 or some handheld).
But even then, collectors don't throw their computers in the bottom of a
drawer.
from
I could not
count the times that I've bought chips on EBAY auctions that were
displayed
loose in a coffee can from someone who had found them in grandpa's
shop.
Do you really think these chips are better off going in the trash
than into some
chip collectors collection?
Yes, yes. We've heard your arguments before. But we aren't talking about
loose chips in a tin can. We're talking about pillaging working boards
for chips. If you're going to respond to a thread, at least respond
within the context (no straw men here).
> 2. Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors collection it's not gone the face
of the earth. It's carefully preserved for future generations.
Yes, thank you. But hopefully it didn't come out of a board that is now
gone from the face of the Earth. For instance, what happened to that
Altair CPU board you bought because you wanted the CPU?
> 3. The argument that a chip is better off inside a vintage computer is > saying
> a coin is better off in circulation serving its "intended" purpose
than
in some
collectors collection.
If that's where the chip came from then yes, it is. By removing the chip
from a computer it once powered or helped work, you are removing it from
its historical context. From a hobbyists point of view, you are taking
something that once worked, removing one part of it that will make it
unfunctioning, and then relishing the one, now non-functioning, part over
the whole in which it once ran.
> 4. Many of the chips that chip collectors pay alot of money for are > varieties
> of "common" chips. For example, an Intel C8080 vs. C8080A.
Vintage
> computer enthusiasts don't
"need" an Intel C8080. In fact, you
would
probably
be better off with the more common and "improved" C8080A.
Well, chip collectors don't really "need" an Intel C8080 either, when a
C8080A will do quite nicely as a representative sample, right? Unless
you have a cereal box prize mentality and must "collect all 8!"
> 5. I think that alot of vintage computer enthusiasts think that chip
> collectors are
> out there busting up Altair 8800's with sledge hammers to get the > out of
> them. That's simply not true. Chip collectors hang out on in the
same
> areas of EBAY that you do. We know
full well what rare machines
are
> worth.
> I'll assure you, chip collectors are not breaking up old machines
for
chips.
What happened to that Altair CPU board?
> In fact, it's just the opposite. I know a number of vintage > that have
> been "saved" by chip collectors because they recognized what they
were.
Examples? What happened to the chips?
> If you really want a supply of vintage chips for your vintage
machines
> in
> 20-30 years then you should be glad that a C8008 brings $100 on
EBAY
> because of chip collectors. The reason
you should be glad is
because
> as the
> word gets out that the early chips are worth money, less of them
will
end up
in the trash.
You're assuming some chip collector 20-30 years down the road will be
willing to part with his rare C8008 that is now part of his amazing
collection of dead silicon. Because in all likelihood that's what it will
be anyway: dead.
> that you guys have and not because of the chips in them either. said,
we also recognize that the chips themselves have historic value and
should
be preserved.
And we do too. We're the greatest chip collectors because we have whole
computers full of them.
> Many chip collectors would like to one day obtain a
> working vintage machine but I know more than a few who have > this idea once they figured out that
many vintage computer
enthusiasts
have
such a negative view of chip collectors.
Bullshit. You keep making this silly remark. I believe this is your
opinion and your opinion alone. You're not gaining any sympathy.
> The same younger computer enthusiasts are the very people you need > keep your
> hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the same people will try
and
> entire
> your world from the world of chip collecting and be totally turned
off
by your
attitudes toward chip collectors.
Blah blah. Name one chip collector that has been turned off by the
comments on this list. Now name all the chip collectors you steered away
from this list because you feel we are biased against chip collectors.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at
www.VintageTech.com *
>
4:42 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
Sellam, you come off as an arrogant a-hole. It's a
shame that the
vintage computer community can not find someone with a better bed side
manner to promote your hobby.
There are hundreds of other representatives of this community to choose
from. My opinions are mine and mine only. Let's get that straight, OK?
That said, I'm sure you are a brilliant dude and
you probably think you
are doing what's best for your hobby but I think you are going about it
in the wrong way.
Thanks, I'll take that into consideration.
Let me give you an example. "People" (lots
of them), from kids doing book
reports, to chip collectors search the net looking for information on early
processors. What do they find? They find these threads on this forum and
they see you as an example of the kind of people involved with vintage
computers.
This sounds completely contrived.
Then they email me. I give them whatever info I can to
help them but
they usually end up volunteering a few comments about you. I'm sure this
thread will generate a number of new emails like this over the next few
months. Perhaps I should save them and post them here. Do you really
want to know the kind of impression you are giving thousands of people
interested in vintage computers? I'll be glad to show you. I think you
might be surprized at who some of the people are and what they had to
say about your previous posts.
No, you can spare the list your drivel. You've made this accusation
before and have offered "proof" but I've never seen it. Go ahead and
e-mail it to me.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
18 Nov
18 Nov
10:10 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
What would I do with an Altair 8800? I'm not
sure. I would like to have
one
simply for it's historic value but there's no way in hell I would hang out
with
people like you if that's what it took to restore it to working order.
Sellam, you
come off as an arrogant a-hole. It's a shame that the vintage computer
community can not find someone with a better bed side manner to promote your
hobby.
That said, I'm sure you are a brilliant dude and
you probably think you are
doing
what's best for your hobby but I think you are going about it in the wrong
way.
I'd suggest holding your breath before you're sliping to far
into this. Sallam may not be the Wolds most sweet-tempered
guy (unless you ask Maria), but he'll a hell of a promotor
and supporter of our hobby. Due this hobby I leared to know
some realy decent who put dedication into computer colecting,
and Sallam is for shure peer among them.
Due his nature he is prone to bite on flame bait like you're
offering. Using this isn't exactly a gentle way of cooperation.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 4.0 am 03./04. Mai 2003 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
10:21 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
Thusly John spake:
come off as an arrogant a-hole. It's a shame
that the vintage computer
community can not find someone with a better bed side manner to promote your
hobby.
And Sellam responds:
"I'm a vintage computer collector John, not a doctor!"
Cheers,
Bryan
4:31 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
A great giggle. Heh-heh-heh. I have a young golden lab cross I
named Jimmy. I regularly use a phrase from StarTrek to him, to my
own amusement. For example his curiousity in a bug crawling
across the floor is extinguished when I step on it, and to his nosing
the remains in consternation I respond, "Goddam-it, he's dead Jim,
he's dead."
Lawrence
Thusly John spake:
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
come off as an arrogant a-hole. It's a
shame that the vintage
computer community can not find someone with a better bed side manner
to promote your hobby.
And Sellam responds:
"I'm a vintage computer collector John, not a doctor!"
Cheers,
Bryan
16 Nov
16 Nov
11:43 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
From: "Sellam Ismail"
<foo(a)siconic.com>
loose chips in a tin can. We're talking about pillaging working boards
for chips. If you're going to respond to a thread, at least respond
Sellam, I don't really think this happens very frequently. I watch the chip
auctions on eBay closely because I sell some there occasionally (gasp!), and
the majority of ICs there are rescued from some drawer or old inventory.
The fact is that working equipment is usually more valuable than the chip
alone, except in rare cases like that C8080. And a lot of equipment that
contained these chips is either already broken up or of little historical
value. Personally, I've never sold a "pull" from a working (or
interesting)
board. They've all been from trashed industrial controllers or the like.
What's more, a lot of dealers are essentially aggregating buys from the NOS
stock dealers, who basically hold old chips for ransom, so those chips are
then available for vintage hobbyist use. You probably didn't see it on
eBay, but I recently designed a new 8008-based SBC. I sold a bunch of kits
without the CPU, many to those same collectors you think aren't interested
in using their silicon.
I suppose that any chip being sold helps build a market, but that's not
going to go away because of disapproval here. Better to try and channel the
interest in the chips and their history past the "sitting in a box" stage, I
think, which was one of my motivations for the 8008 project.
1:19 p.m.
New subject: Chip collecting (was Re: Promoting Classic Computers ...)
"Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
loose chips in a tin can. We're talking about
pillaging working
boards for chips. If you're going to respond to a thread, at least
respond
"Jim Kearney" <jim(a)jkearney.com> wrote:
Sellam, I don't really think this happens very
frequently.
Hard to say, but I think it happens fairly frequently. I was visiting
a DEC reseller in the vicinity of Chicago a few months ago, and he was
talking about selling a big pile of a particular DEC module to someone
for $50 each. Then he mentioned that the person only wanted one chip
from the board, so he was throwing away the rest.
It's pretty clear
that the buyer wasn't using the chips for repairs -- I
suspect they've
slowly been showing up on eBay. I was aggravated because this particular
module is very useful and not particularly easy to find. However, if
there wasn't a chip collectors buying up the chips, the intact modules
wouldn't be that expensive. The reseller said he formerly sold the
modules for only $15-20. At that price I could have bought a bunch of
the modules for spares for myself, and even made them available in the
future to other people who needed them, but I can't afford to do that
at $50 each.
4:49 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Jim Kearney wrote:
Sellam, I don't really think this happens very
frequently. I watch the chip
auctions on eBay closely because I sell some there occasionally (gasp!), and
the majority of ICs there are rescued from some drawer or old inventory.
I understand and find no problem with this at all. I'm merely responding
to "John Galt"'s claims that the whole of the computer collecting
community hates chip collectors. I won't go that far, but I will say that
I personally find Mr. "Galt" to be a dweeb.
The fact is that working equipment is usually more
valuable than the chip
alone, except in rare cases like that C8080. And a lot of equipment that
contained these chips is either already broken up or of little historical
value. Personally, I've never sold a "pull" from a working (or
interesting)
board. They've all been from trashed industrial controllers or the like.
That's fine. And even if you did, that's your perogative. I just don't
agree with it, and I don't really think there is much room for tolerance
of that sort of habit on this list.
I suppose that any chip being sold helps build a
market, but that's not
going to go away because of disapproval here. Better to try and channel the
interest in the chips and their history past the "sitting in a box" stage, I
think, which was one of my motivations for the 8008 project.
That's an excellent suggestion, and nothing I said should be construed as
being anti-chip collector. In fact, I am not. It is this guy who goes
around calling himself "John Galt" that is trying to give me that
reputation.
In fact, "John" inadvertently sent me an e-mail in which he gave an
indication that he was going around smearing my name to folks as someone
who detests chip collectors. He is surely confusing my contempt for
him alone with condemnation for an entire community of hobbyists.
Not that I should have to, but I will go on record right now to say that I
find nothing wrong with collecting and preserving chips, AS LONG AS A
MACHINE IS NOT DESTROYED IN THE PURSUIT OF THAT HOBBY (which is what I've
been saying all along).
I will not have "John Galt" twist my words any more. The next time I see
his sorry ass impugning my reputation I will take action.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
5:17 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
I completely respect Chip collectors, in fact it takes a higher order of
interest, persistence and meticulous inventorying of chips then say Classic
Computers since they are obviously (due to form factor) more difficult to
track, locate and acquire in a pile, a desk drawer, cabinet or
scrap-heap.... they also assist the collecting community as a whole when
they go to the task to publishing their collection, along with technical
data and photo's of the chips, making everyone's involvement and enjoyment
that much more rich.
Curt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
chip
Festival
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Jim Kearney wrote:
> Sellam, I don't really think this happens very frequently. I watch the
chip
> auctions on eBay closely because I sell some
there occasionally (gasp!),
and
the majority
of ICs there are rescued from some drawer or old inventory.
I understand and find no problem with this at all. I'm merely responding
to "John Galt"'s claims that the whole of the computer collecting
community hates chip collectors. I won't go that far, but I will say that
I personally find Mr. "Galt" to be a dweeb.
> The fact is that working equipment is usually more valuable than the > alone, except in rare cases like that C8080. And
a lot of equipment
that
> contained these chips is either already broken up
or of little
historical
> value. Personally, I've never sold a
"pull" from a working (or
interesting)
> board. They've all been from trashed
industrial controllers or the
like.
That's fine. And even if you did, that's your perogative. I just don't
agree with it, and I don't really think there is much room for tolerance
of that sort of habit on this list.
> I suppose that any chip being sold helps build a market, but that's not
> going to go away because of disapproval here. Better to try and channel
the
> interest in the chips and their history past the
"sitting in a box"
stage, I
think, which
was one of my motivations for the 8008 project.
That's an excellent suggestion, and nothing I said should be construed as
being anti-chip collector. In fact, I am not. It is this guy who goes
around calling himself "John Galt" that is trying to give me that
reputation.
In fact, "John" inadvertently sent me an e-mail in which he gave an
indication that he was going around smearing my name to folks as someone
who detests chip collectors. He is surely confusing my contempt for
him alone with condemnation for an entire community of hobbyists.
Not that I should have to, but I will go on record right now to say that I
find nothing wrong with collecting and preserving chips, AS LONG AS A
MACHINE IS NOT DESTROYED IN THE PURSUIT OF THAT HOBBY (which is what I've
been saying all along).
I will not have "John Galt" twist my words any more. The next time I see
his sorry ass impugning my reputation I will take action.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at
www.VintageTech.com *
6:43 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
Hey,
anybody on the list remember why I like Sellam?
I'm starting to forget again. <g>
John A.
The moral of this story is that life is sometimes like
quicksand, you have to notice the times when the more
you struggle the more you get in it instead of out of it.
17 Nov
17 Nov
11:32 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, John Allain wrote:
Hey,
anybody on the list remember why I like Sellam?
I'm starting to forget again. <g>
John A.
The moral of this story is that life is sometimes like
quicksand, you have to notice the times when the more
you struggle the more you get in it instead of out of it.
I'm not afraid of controversy.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
16 Nov
16 Nov
11:52 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
FYI... If anyone is interested in the Altair 8800 CPU board that Sellam
seems to think
I took a hammer or a soldering iron to... It's for sale (I will pull the
Intel C8080 and
replace it with an extra like new Intel C8080A).
Don't know if the board works (neither did the guy I bought it from) but it
looks to be in
excellent original condition. The board is marked 8800 CPU BD REV 0.
It looks just like the one in the Altair 8800 currently on EBAY except that
it
has smaller tan colored caps instead of the larger green ones on the board
on EBAY.
Like I said I had planned on using it to restore an Altair 8800 back to
original
condition since many of them don't have the original boards in them.
If you are interested send me an email and make me an offer. I can send you
a pic of the board.
I'll think I'll stick to chip collecting:)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
> 1. Most chip collectors are very particular about protecting their
chips.
like
"rare"
chips
machines
That
abandoned
to
Festival
Oh no, another rant from a pseudonym.
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
> I'm a chip collector and I would like to take a moment to defend my
hobby.
> We just don't
> throw them in the bottom of a drawer like some "computer
enthusiasts".
I don't know of any computer you can just "throw in the bottom of a
drawer" (unless you're talking about a Sinclair ZX81 or some handheld).
But even then, collectors don't throw their computers in the bottom of a
drawer.
from
I could not
count the times that I've bought chips on EBAY auctions that were
displayed
loose in a coffee can from someone who had found them in grandpa's
shop.
Do you really think these chips are better off going in the trash
than into some
chip collectors collection?
Yes, yes. We've heard your arguments before. But we aren't talking about
loose chips in a tin can. We're talking about pillaging working boards
for chips. If you're going to respond to a thread, at least respond
within the context (no straw men here).
> 2. Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors collection it's not gone
the face
of the earth. It's carefully preserved for future generations.
Yes, thank you. But hopefully it didn't come out of a board that is now
gone from the face of the Earth. For instance, what happened to that
Altair CPU board you bought because you wanted the CPU?
> 3. The argument that a chip is better off inside a vintage computer is > saying
> a coin is better off in circulation serving its "intended" purpose
than
in some
collectors collection.
If that's where the chip came from then yes, it is. By removing the chip
from a computer it once powered or helped work, you are removing it from
its historical context. From a hobbyists point of view, you are taking
something that once worked, removing one part of it that will make it
unfunctioning, and then relishing the one, now non-functioning, part over
the whole in which it once ran.
> 4. Many of the chips that chip collectors pay alot of money for are
> varieties
> of "common" chips. For example, an Intel C8080 vs. C8080A.
Vintage
> computer enthusiasts don't
"need" an Intel C8080. In fact, you
would
probably
be better off with the more common and "improved" C8080A.
Well, chip collectors don't really "need" an Intel C8080 either, when a
C8080A will do quite nicely as a representative sample, right? Unless
you have a cereal box prize mentality and must "collect all 8!"
> 5. I think that alot of vintage computer enthusiasts think that chip
> collectors are
> out there busting up Altair 8800's with sledge hammers to get the
> out of
> them. That's simply not true. Chip collectors hang out on in the
same
> areas of EBAY that you do. We know full
well what rare machines
are
> worth.
> I'll assure you, chip collectors are not breaking up old machines
for
chips.
What happened to that Altair CPU board?
> In fact, it's just the opposite. I know a number of vintage
> that have
> been "saved" by chip collectors because they recognized what they
were.
Examples? What happened to the chips?
> If you really want a supply of vintage chips for your vintage
machines
> in
> 20-30 years then you should be glad that a C8008 brings $100 on
EBAY
> because of chip collectors. The reason you
should be glad is
because
> as the
> word gets out that the early chips are worth money, less of them
will
end up
in the trash.
You're assuming some chip collector 20-30 years down the road will be
willing to part with his rare C8008 that is now part of his amazing
collection of dead silicon. Because in all likelihood that's what it will
be anyway: dead.
> that you guys have and not because of the chips in them either. said,
we also recognize that the chips themselves have historic value and
should
be preserved.
And we do too. We're the greatest chip collectors because we have whole
computers full of them.
> Many chip collectors would like to one day obtain a
> working vintage machine but I know more than a few who have > this idea once they figured out that many
vintage computer
enthusiasts
have such
a negative view of chip collectors.
Bullshit. You keep making this silly remark. I believe this is your
opinion and your opinion alone. You're not gaining any sympathy.
> The same younger computer enthusiasts are the very people you need > keep your
> hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the same people will try
and
> entire
> your world from the world of chip collecting and be totally turned
off
by your
attitudes toward chip collectors.
Blah blah. Name one chip collector that has been turned off by the
comments on this list. Now name all the chip collectors you steered away
from this list because you feel we are biased against chip collectors.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at
www.VintageTech.com *
12:34 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
John G., I would agree that you should make effort to format your eMails.
JA
17 Nov
17 Nov
10:06 a.m.
New subject: Whats wrong with chip collecting?
Its clear that there is friction between the worlds of vintage computer
collecting and chip collectors.
A disinterested party would probably assume that these two islands of
peoples would be highly interdependant and mutually supportive, but
commonly this is not the case at all.
I recently exchanged a number of emails with several chip collectors
regarding a very rare RCA 1801 chip set. I have to say that dealing
with the chip collectors left me very confused. I do think that there
are some problems in the chip collecting community as a whole.
This is not to say that there is anything intrinsically wrong with
collecting old and rare chips in itself. But the current ways in which
values are assigned to chips is very wrong, and this does lead to the
destruction of rare parts in some cases.
As an example, one collector lists a RCA 1801 chip set at $1,500, for a
pair of IC's that have never been soldered onto a board, and are in
unknown functional condition. These same collectors will turn their
noses up at a much earlier, much less common RCA 1801 CPU assembly that
is unused new old stock.
So vastly more value is placed on the fact that the parts 'look' new
than their actual rarity, or even the fact that RCA shipped and sold
this processor as a CPU assembly on a tiny PCB. Apparently the true
historical context of the 1801 CPU is less important than appearance,
and the same appears to be true of its functional condition as well.
The fact that RCA soldered the part onto a module lowers the value to a
greater degree than its rarity increases it, despite the fact that this
is what the part is for, or the implications on the functionality of the
parts? This is not an easy position to defend.
I'm sure most would agree that a NOS CPU board is far more likley to be
functional that a pair of never-been-soldered chips. So we see that at
least in this case, appearance is more highly valued that actual rarity
or functionality, and even moreso that the true historical perspective
of the devices themselves.
If we were to look at a similar collectable item, and the needed parts
to keep that collectable running, we find an excellent parallel in
antique pocket watches. Here is a collectable item that holds value,
and appreciates much like many vintage computers do today. The parts
are no longer made, and some parts wear and fail during normal operation
much like our vintage hardware does.
Most of the stocks of repair parts for antique pocket watches come from
new old stocks found in various locations, but some people are forces to
scavenge parts from other non-working watches. Some people actually
collect repair parts for these facinating vintage machines, but only for
the purpose of restoring and repairing the watches, and not because the
parts themselves are assigned value seperate from the watch that uses them..
Mainsprings will fail, they are in effect, consumable parts (often
lasting for decades, but still consumable). New replacement mainsprings
for a turn-of-the-century Waltham watch are no longer made and are
becomming rather rare. Has the price of vintage Waltham mainsprings
shot upwards?
No, not much at all, because at time goes by, fewer and fewer vintage
Waltham's cross watchmakers benches for repair. Value is based on
supply and demand in a simple and rational way. One good reason for
this is that there is zero practical value to collecting pocet watch
parts unless they are going to be used in repairing pocket watches, and
so the watch parts collectors are the same watchmakers who perform the
repairs.
This is not how chip collecting is working today at all. Collectors are
collecting chips, yet are commonly disinterested in collecting the
machines that actually use these parts. Lacking and practical grounding
(or worse, electrical grounding) in the practical context of the parts,
their perceptions of value are often highly distorted to the point of
being flat-out wrong.
But its clear that the development of the chip is a far more important
historical development than the many innovations in pocket watch design,
so the chip by itself has taken on an aura of collectability that just
does not reflect its actual value or historical context. One can
imagine that 50 years from now, someone might view an early
microprocessor chip with some respect, while today no one is going to be
impressed with a mainspring from a watch.
But a fully operational vintage pocket watch will still be far far more
interesting than a dusty old chip of unknown (or unknowable) functional
condition.
Taking the analogy between vintage computers and antuique watches a step
further, the situation we have today is as if the watchmakers (people
reparing old machines) and those collecting the parts needed for those
repairs are seperate groups (at least in part), and the parts collectors
are trying to assign value to the parts independantly from the value of
the machines needing those parts.
So maybe chip collector #1 has a C8080 rather than a C8080A. Fine, so
what? If its just a chip sitting around its far less interesting
(historically) than any sort of 8080 thats actually running. This is no
different than a old but rather common pocket watch in perfect running
condition being more valuable than a much rarer pocket watch in poor
condition that does not run and needs parts that are not available.
Also once that C8080 is placed into a collection of other 8080 CPU's,
its going to be assigned a higher value, 'Oh, I cannot sell just that
one, it would break up the set'. This only further distorts the
perception of value issue running through the chip collecting community,
and further seperates the parts from the machines that use them.
So what (in my opinion) is wrong with chip collecting? Simply put,
vintage chip collecting as a seperate activity from the repair of
vintage hardware only serves to distort the value of the parts
themselves at the expense of those who do restore vintage hardware.
Based on every other collectable I'm aware of, the functional whole
item is always more valuable than the parts it contains. Either chip
collectors need to get a grip on their misperceptions of value, or
vintage machine collectors need to greatly re-assess the values of their
operational hardware.
Probably equal measures of both are in order.
12:42 p.m.
New subject: Whats wrong with chip collecting?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, Bob Shannon wrote:
So vastly more value is placed on the fact that the
parts 'look' new
than their actual rarity, or even the fact that RCA shipped and sold
this processor as a CPU assembly on a tiny PCB. Apparently the true
historical context of the 1801 CPU is less important than appearance,
and the same appears to be true of its functional condition as well.
<...>
I'm sure most would agree that a NOS CPU board is
far more likley to be
functional that a pair of never-been-soldered chips. So we see that at
least in this case, appearance is more highly valued that actual rarity
or functionality, and even moreso that the true historical perspective
of the devices themselves.
This is typical of fad collectors. Appearance is valued over substance
or functionality. It is collecting mostly out of competition. It is
typically human.
For me, collecting has always been natural (i.e. I'm a pack rat). But I
also just have a basic appreciation of all things old. I just happened to
combine this appreciation with my passion for computers and became a
collector.
I also don't really consider it a hobby. For me it's a way of life.
Most of the stocks of repair parts for antique pocket
watches come from
new old stocks found in various locations, but some people are forces to
scavenge parts from other non-working watches. Some people actually
collect repair parts for these facinating vintage machines, but only for
the purpose of restoring and repairing the watches, and not because the
parts themselves are assigned value seperate from the watch that uses them..
An apt analogy.
But its clear that the development of the chip is a
far more important
historical development than the many innovations in pocket watch design,
so the chip by itself has taken on an aura of collectability that just
does not reflect its actual value or historical context. One can
imagine that 50 years from now, someone might view an early
microprocessor chip with some respect, while today no one is going to be
impressed with a mainspring from a watch.
Chips in themselves have histories and stories behind them. They have a
specific function that can be described and in some cases appreciated;
they may have pushed the boundaries of electrical engineering at some
point, making them significant in that regard; they may have been designed
by significant persons, etc. Collecting and documenting chips in and of
themselves is completely valid. Once we get beyond the fad phase, the
hobby will have matured.
Computer collecting went through the same phase. I think the hobby has
now mostly matured.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
2:19 p.m.
New subject: Whats wrong with chip collecting?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Shannon" <bshannon(a)tiac.net>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:10 AM
Subject: Whats wrong with chip collecting?
Its clear that there is friction between the worlds of
vintage computer
collecting and chip collectors.
A disinterested party would probably assume that these two islands of
peoples would be highly interdependant and mutually supportive, but
commonly this is not the case at all.
I recently exchanged a number of emails with several chip collectors
regarding a very rare RCA 1801 chip set. I have to say that dealing
with the chip collectors left me very confused. I do think that there
are some problems in the chip collecting community as a whole.
This is not to say that there is anything intrinsically wrong with
collecting old and rare chips in itself. But the current ways in which
values are assigned to chips is very wrong, and this does lead to the
destruction of rare parts in some cases.
As an example, one collector lists a RCA 1801 chip set at $1,500, for a
pair of IC's that have never been soldered onto a board, and are in
unknown functional condition. These same collectors will turn their
noses up at a much earlier, much less common RCA 1801 CPU assembly that
is unused new old stock.
So vastly more value is placed on the fact that the parts 'look' new
than their actual rarity, or even the fact that RCA shipped and sold
this processor as a CPU assembly on a tiny PCB. Apparently the true
historical context of the 1801 CPU is less important than appearance,
and the same appears to be true of its functional condition as well.
The fact that RCA soldered the part onto a module lowers the value to a
greater degree than its rarity increases it, despite the fact that this
is what the part is for, or the implications on the functionality of the
parts? This is not an easy position to defend.
You are correct. It's really an issue of condition. Chip collectors are
kinda like coin collectors. A coin with a hole drilled in it so someone
could wear it is "ruined" as far as most coin collectors are conerned.
The fact that you could still spend the coin is irrelevant.
Likewise, chip collectors want a chip to be as close to the condition
it was when it came off the assembly line as possible.
For example, if the 1801 set was not soldered on a
board but was instead had the word "good" written on it
with a magic marker you would also find that collectors
would also frown on that.
It's really no different that someone paying more for an "original"
condition Altair 8800 verses paying less for one that has a few
extra holes drilled in it, etc.
I'm sure most would agree that a NOS CPU board is far more likley to be
functional that a pair of never-been-soldered chips. So we see that at
least in this case, appearance is more highly valued that actual rarity
or functionality, and even moreso that the true historical perspective
of the devices themselves.
If we were to look at a similar collectable item, and the needed parts
to keep that collectable running, we find an excellent parallel in
antique pocket watches. Here is a collectable item that holds value,
and appreciates much like many vintage computers do today. The parts
are no longer made, and some parts wear and fail during normal operation
much like our vintage hardware does.
Most of the stocks of repair parts for antique pocket watches come from
new old stocks found in various locations, but some people are forces to
scavenge parts from other non-working watches. Some people actually
collect repair parts for these facinating vintage machines, but only for
the purpose of restoring and repairing the watches, and not because the
parts themselves are assigned value seperate from the watch that uses
them..
Mainsprings will fail, they are in effect, consumable parts (often
lasting for decades, but still consumable). New replacement mainsprings
for a turn-of-the-century Waltham watch are no longer made and are
becomming rather rare. Has the price of vintage Waltham mainsprings
shot upwards?
No, not much at all, because at time goes by, fewer and fewer vintage
Waltham's cross watchmakers benches for repair. Value is based on
supply and demand in a simple and rational way. One good reason for
this is that there is zero practical value to collecting pocet watch
parts unless they are going to be used in repairing pocket watches, and
so the watch parts collectors are the same watchmakers who perform the
repairs.
This is not how chip collecting is working today at all. Collectors are
collecting chips, yet are commonly disinterested in collecting the
machines that actually use these parts. Lacking and practical grounding
(or worse, electrical grounding) in the practical context of the parts,
their perceptions of value are often highly distorted to the point of
being flat-out wrong.
But its clear that the development of the chip is a far more important
historical development than the many innovations in pocket watch design,
so the chip by itself has taken on an aura of collectability that just
does not reflect its actual value or historical context. One can
imagine that 50 years from now, someone might view an early
microprocessor chip with some respect, while today no one is going to be
impressed with a mainspring from a watch.
But a fully operational vintage pocket watch will still be far far more
interesting than a dusty old chip of unknown (or unknowable) functional
condition.
Taking the analogy between vintage computers and antuique watches a step
further, the situation we have today is as if the watchmakers (people
reparing old machines) and those collecting the parts needed for those
repairs are seperate groups (at least in part), and the parts collectors
are trying to assign value to the parts independantly from the value of
the machines needing those parts.
So maybe chip collector #1 has a C8080 rather than a C8080A. Fine, so
what? If its just a chip sitting around its far less interesting
(historically) than any sort of 8080 thats actually running. This is no
different than a old but rather common pocket watch in perfect running
condition being more valuable than a much rarer pocket watch in poor
condition that does not run and needs parts that are not available.
Also once that C8080 is placed into a collection of other 8080 CPU's,
its going to be assigned a higher value, 'Oh, I cannot sell just that
one, it would break up the set'. This only further distorts the
perception of value issue running through the chip collecting community,
and further seperates the parts from the machines that use them.
So what (in my opinion) is wrong with chip collecting? Simply put,
vintage chip collecting as a seperate activity from the repair of
vintage hardware only serves to distort the value of the parts
themselves at the expense of those who do restore vintage hardware.
Based on every other collectable I'm aware of, the functional whole
item is always more valuable than the parts it contains. Either chip
collectors need to get a grip on their misperceptions of value, or
vintage machine collectors need to greatly re-assess the values of their
operational hardware.
Probably equal measures of both are in order.
I see your point concerning the part vs. the whole concept
but chip collectors just don't think that way. I'm not sure why
that is. I mean, people don't collector car alternators, pistons,
etc (well maybe someone does but it would seem kinda strange)
I guess the same goes for people who collect old phones.
The fact that most phone collectors don't plug them into
to a working antique phone system does not seem "odd".
Now perhaps, if there was a group of "vintage phone system"
enthusiasts they would complain that "phone collectors"
are driving up the prices on vintage phones and making it
harder for them to maintain their vintage phone systems.
Why is an old phone is not viewed are part of a larger system?
Why do people collect old phones but not old car alternators?
I don't know but I bet that people will still be collecting old
phones 100 years from now but I doubt that old car alternators
will ever be a popular collectible.
On the otherhand, I'm always amused when a vintage computer
"collector" says they think that chip collecting is "odd". If there
was ever a case of the pot calling the kettle black!
You said "Either chip collectors need to get a grip on their misperceptions
of value, or vintage machine collectors need to greatly re-assess the values
of their operational hardware". I would suggest the later. I think that
given their historical significance, rare vintage computers are drastically
under valued. While values may go up and down over the short term, I
fully expect that over the long term, prices on rare vintage computers
are going to nowhere but up.
Time will tell.
2:56 p.m.
New subject: Acorns
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2068515702&rd=1
~$1600 for an Acorn A500 Prototype, was it really worth it !?!?
3:31 p.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers (was Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting?)
John Galt wrote:
You said "Either chip collectors need to get a
grip on their misperceptions
of value, or vintage machine collectors need to greatly re-assess the values
of their operational hardware". I would suggest the later. I think that
given their historical significance, rare vintage computers are drastically
under valued. While values may go up and down over the short term, I
fully expect that over the long term, prices on rare vintage computers
are going to nowhere but up.
I would have to agree. Here at ACONIT we are about to transport a bunch
of our old machiens for an exhibition. Obviously there is the question
of insurance for which we need to value the machines.
For a working IBM 1130 we have set an insurance value of $50,000 (fifty
thousand) on the grounds that any damage which makes the machine
inoperable will probaly be irrepariable and the machine will become just
another inert museum exhibit.
A Micral-N, offered by another collection is valued by them at $15,000
even though it is not in working order and I suspect the components are
not unobtanium.
I have caluclated that our working PDP-9 is worth about $20,000 just
from the man-hours we have already put into it to get
it operating. Is
it worth that much or more? It is one of only 5 or 6 known to
exist and
I think it is is only one in operation.
Of course insurance value and actual market price are two different
things, and we had many a lively discussion about how to value the old
irreplaceable machines.
Exhibition details : Musee de Grenoble, Grenoble, France : Nov 22 to Dec
2 inclusive.
-- hbp
5:07 p.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers (was Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting?)
Quothe Hans B Pufal, from writings of Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 10:31:34PM +0100:
Of course insurance value and actual market price are
two different
things, and we had many a lively discussion about how to value the old
irreplaceable machines.
Ah yes, the arguments between the sensible who rightly claim that
these machines are not to be valued monetarily but in hack value by
those who will trade them and give them away versus those [#&*@#%@*!]
who collect them not for the fun of hacking on them, but for expected
monetary rewards if, or when, the value increases over time. The
later will result in the eventual destruction, or ensured uselessness,
of compters, which will end up being stored away, unused, never
modified and never repaired if they are used and cease to function,
typically wasting away in some storage area somewhere waiting for the
next auction.
--
Copyright (C) 2002 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
18 Nov
18 Nov
1:59 p.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers (was Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting?)
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, R. D. Davis wrote:
Ah yes, the arguments between the sensible who rightly
claim that these
machines are not to be valued monetarily but in hack value by those who
will trade them and give them away versus those [#&*@#%@*!] who collect
them not for the fun of hacking on them, but for expected monetary
rewards if, or when, the value increases over time.
I _very recently_ had the unfortunate experience in having to deal with a
"collector" who seems to fit your description of the second group. I
invited the "collector" along on a rescue of a fair number of systems,
with a prior understanding that I'd get first pick, but he showed up
unannounced (didn't call ahead) and early (he got there before I had
planned to be there), and ended up snatching most of the usable hardware
out from under me. The stuff he took included a number of systems and
parts which I had intended to put to immediate use, as well some stuff
that I had intended to pass on to some other people, including some other
list members.
As it turned out, I more or less got the scrap and seconds, which really
isn't the kind of hardware one can immediately put to use. In the end,
that "collector" will be the one who looses out though, as I will not
again ever even consider sending him to someone who has hardware they want
to give to a good home, nor will I inform him of or invite him along on
any future equipment rescues.
The "collector" later had the audacity to complain to the person who gave
away the equipment that I got "all the good stuff", and that I got some of
the systems that he had wanted. That "collector" more or less wanted
everything to himself, and didn't care if he had to step on toes to get
it.
I also cannot believe that this is the first time that "collector" has
pulled that stunt, as he had it very well rehearsed, and managed to trick
even me...just long enough for him to get even more of the equipment he
wanted.
What really burns me, is that I had been working on arranging this rescue
since June. The list members who emailed me privately back then about some
of that gear will know exactly what I'm talking about. I really wish it
had turned out better...
The later will result in the eventual destruction, or
ensured
uselessness, of compters, which will end up being stored away, unused,
never modified and never repaired if they are used and cease to
function, typically wasting away in some storage area somewhere waiting
for the next auction.
Sadly, In my experience, this is indeed usually the outcome of collecting
hardware for expected monetary increase. The type of hardware the typical
hardware hacker prefers is often considered junk by folks who don't use
these older computers, so much of it is likely to either be dumped, or
sold to a scrap dealer if it is ever auctioned off in bulk.
I have a few systems in various states of repair which are worth a
considerable sum, but I don't think I'd ever be able to force myself to
give or sell them to a "collector" who would not actually use them.
-Toth
2:19 p.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers (was Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting?)
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Tothwolf wrote:
What really burns me, is that I had been working on
arranging this rescue
since June. The list members who emailed me privately back then about some
of that gear will know exactly what I'm talking about. I really wish it
had turned out better...
Oh, no way. That wasn't the lot of IRIS boards, was it?
ok
r.
2:41 p.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers (was Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting?)
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Tothwolf wrote:
Nope, it was a local rescue. You didn't end up with the IRIS boards did
you? ;P
A number of list members were interested in different parts and systems
that were available, but the owner did not have the resources to pack and
ship stuff to different people. I had planned to pack and ship some of the
things people had emailed me about, but since I didn't end up with most of
the goodies, not much I can do.
-Toth
What really burns me, is that I had been working
on arranging this
rescue since June. The list members who emailed me privately back then
about some of that gear will know exactly what I'm talking about. I
really wish it had turned out better...
Oh, no way. That wasn't the lot of IRIS boards, was it?
2:50 p.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers (was Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting?)
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Tothwolf wrote:
No, after the initial confusion, I said I'd let you take care of it, and I
meant it.
ok
r.
Oh, no way.
That wasn't the lot of IRIS boards, was it?
Nope, it was a local rescue. You didn't end up with the IRIS boards did
you? ;P
12:06 a.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers (was Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting?)
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, Hans B Pufal wrote:
I would have to agree. Here at ACONIT we are about to
transport a bunch
of our old machiens for an exhibition. Obviously there is the question
of insurance for which we need to value the machines.
For a working IBM 1130 we have set an insurance value of $50,000 (fifty
thousand) on the grounds that any damage which makes the machine
inoperable will probaly be irrepariable and the machine will become just
another inert museum exhibit.
A Micral-N, offered by another collection is valued by them at $15,000
even though it is not in working order and I suspect the components are
not unobtanium.
I have caluclated that our working PDP-9 is worth about $20,000 just
from the man-hours we have already put into it to get it operating. Is
it worth that much or more? It is one of only 5 or 6 known to exist and
I think it is is only one in operation.
Of course insurance value and actual market price are two different
things, and we had many a lively discussion about how to value the old
irreplaceable machines.
As a person who does appraisals on vintage computers (including for
insurance valuations), I can say that the values you ascribed in this
case are completely valid.
My valuations are generally based on what a certain machine would be
likely to fetch at a well publicized auction, taking into account the
rarity of a machine and the desirability, based on factors such as
physical and functioning condition. It is also completely acceptable to
base value partly on the amount of work that went into restoring a
machine.
If you ever need help with this in the future then let me know ;)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
3:24 a.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers
> For a working IBM 1130 we have set an insurance
value of $50,000 (fifty
> thousand) on the grounds that any damage which makes the machine
> inoperable will probaly be irrepariable and the machine will become just
> another inert museum exhibit.
How would a claim actually work, ie a forklift hits a bump and the
shipping pallet tips over. The damage appears cosmetic, but when the
unit is powered up, the sparks fly and magic smoke is released. Board
"c" is toast, and none are know to exist as replacements.
What happens?
Do they get a chance to make repairs, as they see fit.
Do they cut you a $50k check, AND let you keep the inert system?
Something else?
3:54 a.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers
Mike Ford wrote:
> For a working IBM 1130 we have set an insurance
value of $50,000
> (fifty thousand) on the grounds that any damage which makes the machine
> inoperable will probaly be irrepariable and the machine will become
> just another inert museum exhibit.
How would a claim actually work, ie a forklift hits a
bump and the
shipping pallet tips over. The damage appears cosmetic, but when the
unit is powered up, the sparks fly and magic smoke is released. Board
"c" is toast, and none are know to exist as replacements.
What happens?
Do they get a chance to make repairs, as they see fit.
Do they cut you a $50k check, AND let you keep the inert system?
Something else?
Good questions, I hope I never have the opportunity to reply form
experience!
If thaere are any insurance experts around I'd be interested in their
comments.
-- hbp
11:46 a.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers
I'm not an insurance expert but my past experience with other insurance
claims (and my innate cynicism) leads me to believe that the insurance
company in question will do the minimum due diligence to determine the
actual replacement cost of the unit and if the unit is indeed a complete
loss. They will then offer you something less then its determined value
(assuming they don't claim it's reparable) to see if you'll bite.
Whatever they offer is typically negotiable to a point and they pretty
much expect you to challenge their valuation. The burden is then on you
to prove your figures.
If you do accept a payment for the unit then it becomes the property of
the insurance company. You do have the option of asking for the remains
back, but you'll be charged what the insurer thinks they are worth.
If you have a "declared value" policy (which is common with classic
automobiles) then you don't worry about the initial negotiations. The
insurer will pay the declared value upon a loss. You then just have to
negotiate to get what's left back which can be just as challenging.
Erik
www.vintage-computer.com
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Hans B Pufal
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 1:55 AM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Value of classic computers
Mike Ford wrote:
> For a working IBM 1130 we have set an insurance
value of $50,000
> (fifty thousand) on the grounds that any damage which makes the
machine
> inoperable will probaly be irrepariable and the
machine will become
> just another inert museum exhibit.
How would a claim actually work, ie a forklift hits a
bump and the
shipping pallet tips over. The damage appears cosmetic, but when the
unit is powered up, the sparks fly and magic smoke is released. Board
"c" is toast, and none are know to exist as replacements.
What happens?
Do they get a chance to make repairs, as they see fit.
Do they cut you a $50k check, AND let you keep the inert system?
Something else?
Good questions, I hope I never have the opportunity to reply form
experience!
If thaere are any insurance experts around I'd be interested in their
comments.
-- hbp
12:12 p.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers
Whatever they offer is typically negotiable to a point
and they pretty
much expect you to challenge their valuation. The burden is then on you
to prove your figures.
I don't really think this is true. They accept your premium based on what
you tell them the value is. If they want to dispute that, they should do
it prior to accepting your premium.
Now, unless someone is trying to defraud the insurance companies, lawyer's
expenses will be part of any judgement. I doubt very seriously that
insurance companies want to take these things to court, expecially on
ones they can't prevail on.
BTW, I had an insurance claim filed on an IMSAI that I shipped to Italy
(FedEx). FedEx called me and asked how much it was worth. I told them
and they paid the claim.
10:51 a.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Mike Ford wrote:
> For a
working IBM 1130 we have set an insurance value of $50,000 (fifty
> thousand) on the grounds that any damage which makes the machine
> inoperable will probaly be irrepariable and the machine will become just
> another inert museum exhibit.
How would a claim actually work, ie a forklift hits a bump and the
shipping pallet tips over. The damage appears cosmetic, but when the
unit is powered up, the sparks fly and magic smoke is released. Board
"c" is toast, and none are know to exist as replacements.
What happens?
Do they get a chance to make repairs, as they see fit.
Do they cut you a $50k check, AND let you keep the inert system?
Something else?
11:25 a.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers
From my experience, they would most likely pay out the
claim (perhaps
after disputing it a bit, but then they will probably have scrutinized
it from the get go since it would be such an odd item to insure, and the
value would probably have to be ascertained by an appraiser) and then take
ownership of the original, and then either destroy it or try to recover
some of the expense of the claim by selling it (either for scrap or as a
collectible perhaps).
Precisely my concern, worthless insurance, unless you do it VERY carefully.
What classic collector would be willing to accept the insurance money if
they knew the carrier wonld be scrapping the unit with assurded distruction
etc.
11:49 a.m.
New subject: Value of classic computers
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Mike Ford wrote:
I had a similar situation a few years ago when a computer was shipped up
to Oregon/Washington. Among other damages, the box was subjected to
enough shock that the processor was jarred from its socket and was
rattling around loose in the case. In the agreement with the shipping
company, the insurance was paid ($1500 or so) and the box bought back
for IIRC $300.00. That way, no additional shipping or disposal expense
was incurred by the insurance company. BTW, the CPU (Pentium 133) was
fine after all the pins were straightened out, and worked for several
years until taken out of service.
Do they get a chance to make repairs, as they see
fit.
Do they cut you a $50k check, AND let you keep the inert system?
Something else?
From my experience, they would most likely pay out
the claim (perhaps
after disputing it a bit, but then they will probably have
scrutinized
it from the get go since it would be such an odd item to insure, and the
value would probably have to be ascertained by an appraiser) and then take
ownership of the original, and then either destroy it or try to recover
some of the expense of the claim by selling it (either for scrap or as a
collectible perhaps).
12:02 a.m.
New subject: Whats wrong with chip collecting?
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
On the otherhand, I'm always amused when a vintage
computer "collector"
says they think that chip collecting is "odd". If there was ever a case
of the pot calling the kettle black!
When has anyone ever said that?
You said "Either chip collectors need to get a
grip on their
misperceptions of value, or vintage machine collectors need to greatly
re-assess the values of their operational hardware". I would suggest the
later. I think that given their historical significance, rare vintage
computers are drastically under valued. While values may go up and down
over the short term, I fully expect that over the long term, prices on
rare vintage computers are going to nowhere but up.
I suggest the former. Prices for old computers are fairly well
established by now. These prices are independent of, for instance, the
CPU that may power the computer. For example, if a SOL-20 goes on the
market, chances are it could fetch up to $1,200, regardless of whether it
had an Intel C8080 on the original Processor Technology CPU board or if
it had a Cromemco ZPU with a Zilog Z80 (even a first run Z80). The CPU
has no bearing on the valuation of the machine.
Two things are for certain: one, as you allude so brilliantly, is that in
the long term the prices of (certain) vintage computers will rise; two, in
the short term the prices of old chips will fall.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
17 Nov
17 Nov
6:51 p.m.
New subject: Whats wrong with chip collecting?
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18 Nov
18 Nov
8:48 p.m.
New subject: Whats wrong with chip collecting?
Quothe Tony Duell, from writings of Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 12:27:58AM +0000:
But it's hard (I won't say impossible [1]) to
make even the simplest chip
at home.
[1] 'Somebody these days claiming something is impossible is apt to be
interrupted by some fool doing it'.
Not too long ago I read where someone wrote that it's impossible to
manufacture thermonic valves without a large amount of very expensive
equipment, which is no longer manufactured. Now, I've seen where some
people are experimenting with, and having some success with, making
valves/tubes at home.
This is analagous, I guess, to why many of the
hardware hackers here
collect chips (it's certainly why I 'collect' chips) -- to use them to
repair vintage hardware. Not to use them to make money.
In that respect, I do collect chips. :-) ...no idea what any are
worth, how rare most are or arent, and don't care much about their
cosmetic appearance, rarity, monetary value, etc. To me, such a chip
"collection" is not a collection, but "inventory" for future hacking
or repairs. I'm not going to destroy a PERQ or PDP-11 to get a rare
chip to add to my inventory; of course, if one of my PERQs, PDP-11s,
etc. needed a certain hard-to-find, or nearly impossible to find, chip
that was in a lesser machine that I wasn't interested in (e.g., an
Altair, PeeCee, etc.), I wouldn't hesitate to carefully remove such a
chip from that less-than-interesting-to-me machine in order to keep a
PERQ, PDP-11, etc. alive.
--
Copyright (C) 2002 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
9:40 p.m.
New subject: Whats wrong with chip collecting?
Not too long ago I read where someone wrote that
it's impossible to
manufacture thermonic valves without a large amount of very expensive
equipment, which is no longer manufactured. Now, I've seen where some
people are experimenting with, and having some success with, making
valves/tubes at home.
The "trick" with making tubes is not so much having proper equipment
(getting a _good_ vacuum pump is not that hard these days), but how the
equipment is used. The critical point of manufacture is the very end of
the assembly process - outgassing the elements, pumping the tube, sealing,
and flashing the getter. These steps are very dependent on each other, and
timing is critical. There is quite a bit of magic at this point, and it
only comes up with years of tube building experience and lots of duds.
With practice, I suppose one could make tubes about as well as the
industry did back in the 1920s.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
10:32 p.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
William Donzelli wrote:
The funny things is some say the best tubes are from the 30's
and the 40's. It is the other things like good transformers and
capacitors and speakers that they did not have then.
Here is a link for the history of hi-fi.
http://www.aloha-audio.com/library/tinyhistory1.html
http://www.aloha-audio.com/library/tinyhistory2.html
Old Tube stuff is still easy to fix compared to the modern
market consumer products like computers. I don't think
in 10 years we will have many of this years products around to
be classic computers.
Not too long
ago I read where someone wrote that it's impossible to
manufacture thermonic valves without a large amount of very expensive
equipment, which is no longer manufactured. Now, I've seen where some
people are experimenting with, and having some success with, making
valves/tubes at home.
The "trick" with making tubes is not so much having proper equipment
(getting a _good_ vacuum pump is not that hard these days), but how the
equipment is used. The critical point of manufacture is the very end of
the assembly process - outgassing the elements, pumping the tube, sealing,
and flashing the getter. These steps are very dependent on each other, and
timing is critical. There is quite a bit of magic at this point, and it
only comes up with years of tube building experience and lots of duds.
With practice, I suppose one could make tubes about as well as the
industry did back in the 1920s.
10:47 p.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
The funny things is some say the best tubes are from
the 30's
and the 40's.
Well, for the "mystique", yes the tubes from the 30s and 40s were the
best. For pure performance, the tubes of the 1960s were the best. All
those junk TV tubes ("the embarrassing glut") are actually really very
good - low noise, low microphonics, high gm, high reliability, and made
to tolerances that were tighter than anything imagined in the 1930s.
I think it took these later (post-1955) tubes in order to make the computer
industry happen. I doubt anyone could have made a really usable machine
in decent quantities with earlier tubes.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
19 Nov
19 Nov
6:09 a.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
ben franchuk wrote:
Old Tube stuff is still easy to fix compared to the
modern
market consumer products like computers. I don't think
in 10 years we will have many of this years products around to
be classic computers.
I see it in ham radio. Tinkering is gone. Can't easily modify a LSI
circuit like you can with discrete components you don't have to have a
electron microscope to see.
The expanding segment of boatanchor collecting/restoration is tribute to
the vacuum tube technology. Computers are still a system of black box
components that are replaced rather than fixed to the component level.
Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP
St. Joseph, MO
10:28 a.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
> Old Tube stuff is still easy to fix compared to
the modern
> market consumer products like computers. I don't think
> in 10 years we will have many of this years products around to
> be classic computers.
If you equate a board to a tube, they are about the same. The only reason
so many component level repairs used to be made is that visual inspections
were often enough to id the bad part, and the soldering skills were pretty
minimal. IMHO the repair industry collapsed on itself, the average
cost/quality of repair rose until manufacturers could not afford the risk
of field repairs.
I see it in ham radio. Tinkering is gone. Can't
easily modify a LSI
circuit like you can with discrete components you don't have to have a
electron microscope to see.
The tinker gene is alive, but tinkering is indeed getting harder to do. Kit
building and ground up projects are very much alive in audio, especially
speakers. If you visit www.headwise.com you will see close to a dozen
different headphone amp projects.
10:55 a.m.
New subject: Latest aquisition: HP 7596A plotter
The 3274 was gone from the Uni surplus this morning, but the HP 7596A
plotter was still there (going on two months). I asked what they could
do on the $100 price... $50 was their initial offer, then $25 after
the manager saw me fiddling with it to make it do *something* (some
yutz misloaded the pens and it was unhappy).
So now I have an E-sized pen plotter. It has serial and HPIB interfaces
and I'm looking for a quick-start reference guide. I've been googling
all morning and haven't found anything overtly helpful. I know that
I can get paper and pens from Western Numeric Controls, but manuals
are scarce as hen's teeth.
One quick question... how to I get a demo plot? I see the menu on
the internal LCD, but no combination of buttons seems to initiate
a plot. Reset is another option and it asks me to confirm, but,
again, I can't figure out what to press to confirm.
There's buttons around the LCD for menu navigation, a "dot" button,
eight pen buttons and some cursor-style direction buttons.
Thanks for any tips from a novice to large-format plotters (all my
experience has been with A/B-sized HP pen plotters).
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
11:44 a.m.
New subject: Latest aquisition: HP 7596A plotter
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote:
So now I have an E-sized pen plotter. It has serial
and HPIB interfaces
and I'm looking for a quick-start reference guide. I've been googling
all morning and haven't found anything overtly helpful. I know that I
can get paper and pens from Western Numeric Controls, but manuals are
scarce as hen's teeth.
Nice find! I nearly bought a similar plotter once myself, but just
couldn't quite convince myself I wanted to pay $50 for one. Since you are
already familiar with the smaller plotters, you already know HP used a
nonstandard pinout on the serial connector on most of their plotters. I'd
expect the 7596A to be the same way.
HP may still have the manuals on their site somewhere, but finding them
probably won't be easy. The 7596A is also know as the Draftmaster II.
-Toth
2:36 p.m.
New subject: Latest aquisition: HP 7596A plotter
--- Tothwolf <tothwolf(a)concentric.net> wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote:
It started out at $100 (in September) but didn't move. Today, they
offered it to me for $50, then after I kept fiddling with it and
couldn't get it to work (some goob misloaded the pens in the carousel
and it couldn't spin properly), they said $25. Wanted one for a while
to plot schematics from OrCAD in any case.
So now I have an E-sized pen plotter. It has
serial and HPIB
interfaces...
Nice find! I nearly bought a similar plotter once myself, but just
couldn't quite convince myself I wanted to pay $50 for one. Since you are already familiar with the smaller
plotters, you already
know HP used a nonstandard pinout on the serial connector on most of
their plotters. I'd expect the 7596A to be the same way.
That is one of the few things left on the HP website about plotters...
how to wire a serial connector.
HP may still have the manuals on their site somewhere,
but finding them
probably won't be easy. The 7596A is also know as the Draftmaster II.
I have been unable to locate them after 2 hours of searching. :-(
Thanks for the serial tip,
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
11:51 a.m.
New subject: Latest aquisition: HP 7596A plotter
2:07 p.m.
New subject: Latest aquisition: HP 7596A plotter
I believe you need to hold down the "plot" button and then turn the power
on, in order for it to plot a self test image. Regards - Mike
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ, 07731
(732) 901-9193
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <erd_6502(a)yahoo.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:57 AM
Subject: Latest aquisition: HP 7596A plotter
The 3274 was gone from the Uni surplus this morning, but the HP 7596A
plotter was still there (going on two months). I asked what they could
do on the $100 price... $50 was their initial offer, then $25 after
the manager saw me fiddling with it to make it do *something* (some
yutz misloaded the pens and it was unhappy).
So now I have an E-sized pen plotter. It has serial and HPIB interfaces
and I'm looking for a quick-start reference guide. I've been googling
all morning and haven't found anything overtly helpful. I know that
I can get paper and pens from Western Numeric Controls, but manuals
are scarce as hen's teeth.
One quick question... how to I get a demo plot? I see the menu on
the internal LCD, but no combination of buttons seems to initiate
a plot. Reset is another option and it asks me to confirm, but,
again, I can't figure out what to press to confirm.
There's buttons around the LCD for menu navigation, a "dot" button,
eight pen buttons and some cursor-style direction buttons.
Thanks for any tips from a novice to large-format plotters (all my
experience has been with A/B-sized HP pen plotters).
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
2:17 p.m.
New subject: Latest aquisition: HP 7596A plotter
--- Mike Feher <n4fs(a)monmouth.com> wrote:
I believe you need to hold down the "plot" button and then turn the power
on, in order for it to plot a self test image. Regards - Mike
Thanks. Will try that. Is there a proper paper size? Must I use
full width, or will it scale down if I bring in the left-side paper
handler? The best I can get for testing is 11"x17" (C-sized, IIRC)
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
12:24 p.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
At 08:29 AM 11/19/02 -0800, you wrote:
The tinker gene is alive, but tinkering is indeed
getting harder to do. Kit
building and ground up projects are very much alive in audio, especially
speakers. If you visit www.headwise.com you will see close to a dozen
different headphone amp projects.
Hey Mike, you did not answer my last question: are you planning
to build a contrabass?
carlos.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
7 p.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
The tinker gene
is alive, but tinkering is indeed getting harder to do. Kit
building and ground up projects are very much alive in audio, especially
speakers. If you visit www.headwise.com you will see close to a dozen
different headphone amp projects.
Hey Mike, you did not answer my last question: are you planning
to build a contrabass?
8:12 p.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
Quothe Mike Ford, from writings of Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 05:02:24PM -0800:
>>The tinker gene is alive, but tinkering is
indeed getting harder to do.
>Kit
>>building and ground up projects are very much alive in audio, especially
>>speakers. If you visit www.headwise.com you will see close to a dozen
>>different headphone amp projects.
How many others on this list are, like me, appear to be gradually
getting away from computer hacking (unless it's to repair a vintage
system that they have a use for, or to hack some software they need,
like a CGI script for a database entry form) and returning to spending
more time on their earlier electronics interests such as audio and
music synthesis related electronics hacking? Tubes/Valves are more
fun to play with than surface mount (bletch!) ICs; tube/valve
circuitry, such as the chasis for a tube/valve amp., is more pleasant
to work on than a multi-layer circuit board, etc. Furthermore, there
seems to be much more pleasure involved in playing with, and listening
to, satisfying, and solidly built, audio equipment (as opposed to that
plastic paneled refuse with LED meters, digital volume controls,
digital tuners and other annoying rubbish).
--
Copyright (C) 2002 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
20 Nov
20 Nov
2:51 a.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
How many others on this list are, like me, appear to be
gradually
getting away from computer hacking (unless it's to repair a vintage
system that they have a use for, or to hack some software they need,
like a CGI script for a database entry form) and returning to spending
more time on their earlier electronics interests such as audio and
music synthesis related electronics hacking? Tubes/Valves are more
There is some kind of elemental satisfaction from building or even
repairing some usefull item. I used to spend a lot of time on the Bass
List, a DIY speaker building group, and it was uncanny the pleasure people
would get from even the simplest project. The modern world tries to beat
this natural pleasure out of us, or make it immpractical. Ever know anybody
that built their HiFi via Heathkit etc? You can't buy that kind of pride of
ownership.
Just FYI three excellent rewarding first projects, Subwoofer, headphone
amp, preamp.
OTOH the reason fixing a Windows system is less satisfying is that you
NEVER know when its really fixed.
19 Nov
19 Nov
10:28 p.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
Mike Ford wrote:
What held up my answer is that I wanted to make a
complete reply to the
questions of motor stiction and fidelity of the contrabass. Ya know,
something both elegant and informative. The short answer is that yes the
brush motor does need some minimum signal to get it moving, and as a
result distortion at very low levels is worse than a typical voicecoil
driver. Some controller designs actively kickstart motor, most though
just ignore it since low level bass is fairly inaudible anyway. Once the
level gets more interesting the universal opinion is that the bass of
the Contrabass is as good as it gets and pretty much better than
anything else (Sorry John, even those McCauly woofers). The secret is
the genius of Tom Danley, who invented the contrabass and patented the
design, the guy just really understands bass and sound reproduction.
Having picked up a old dynaco SCA-35 amp, I noticed it has a loudness
switch. This boosts base and treble with your volume levels. The catch
is it requires a special 4 lead pot that nobody seems to make nowdays.
This may keep most bass at a resonable level if you impliment a loudness
control. Since I live in a apartment I can't have earth shaking bass, so
I am not worried about it.
20 Nov
20 Nov
12:28 a.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
I have a couple of old Eico integrated mono tube amps and they
have a dials for the level as well as the loudness. They also included
on the device-selector positions for the manufacturing type of
recording. e.g. Colunbia, London, RIAA, Am78, and Eur78. And it
came in a kit like Dynaco and Heathkit. Now that was a degree of
quality concern sadly lacking in any but extremely high end
equipment nowadays.
The huge transformers with all the copper wire has also become
cost ineffective. The control pots are all wire-wound ones.
I used them for years using a small front end for control. I've got the
original FM tuner that came out just before the Crossley FM specs
and the separate tube multiplexor needed for stereo reception. Great
sound. My kids blew out a couple of pairs of good speakers, both at
times when my wife and I weren't present. The sound could be heard
for blocks around. I, and also the neighbors, were considerably
pissed off.
They need a general refubishing with caps and wire-wound pots if still
available as they've gotten scratchy. Fortunately I have the Sams
schematics. Another item in my to-do Queue. Sighhh.
Most later amps coupled the level control with the volume and/or had
the loudness switch.
Lawrence
Having picked up a old dynaco SCA-35 amp, I noticed it
has a loudness
switch. This boosts base and treble with your volume levels. The catch
is it requires a special 4 lead pot that nobody seems to make nowdays.
This may keep most bass at a resonable level if you impliment a loudness
control. Since I live in a apartment I can't have earth shaking bass, so
I am not worried about it.
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
3:49 a.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
Having picked up a old dynaco SCA-35 amp, I noticed it
has a loudness
switch. This boosts base and treble with your volume levels. The catch is
it requires a special 4 lead pot that nobody seems to make nowdays.
This may keep most bass at a resonable level if you impliment a loudness
control. Since I live in a apartment I can't have earth shaking bass, so I
am not worried about it.
Loudness boosts bass and treble at lower volume levels (ie flat when loud),
the idea is to match the sensitivity of the ear, but in practice it is just
one more distortion button for salesdroids to push that should be unpushed.
Most likely it is just a ganged pot, look harder, or at a hamfest. Better
skip it.
12:46 p.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
Mike Ford wrote:
Loudness boosts bass and treble at lower volume levels
(ie flat when
loud), the idea is to match the sensitivity of the ear, but in practice
it is just one more distortion button for salesdroids to push that
should be unpushed.
Other than the filter functions how would it distort more
since it is a passive device. If you you don't like it you can
allways switch it off. Salesdroids are pushing the 250/channel
watt mini transistor amps instead. Read the fine print that is total
power, 75 watts to sub woofer,35 watts to main speaker,10 watts
to tweeter. Notice how they don't give any real specs on amps
other than power. How effecent are the speakers? What is the
distortion? What freq response?
Most likely it is just a ganged pot, look harder, or
at a hamfest.
Better skip it.
I want to buy one NEW! The loudness control is a good idea,
but since most people have never seen them and tone controls
are rare other bass boost, how can the public know if it is a good
thing. Most people want to feel bass not hear it un-distorted.
I got a 16 watt per channel amp with 6" full range speakers
http://www.oldhifi.com/fostex.html )
that plays plenty loud with out distortion for a 12x10 foot
living room. Total 110 watts AC power with the tubes glowing nicely.
Now if I ever did build a new amp I would have some solid state
logic for a remote and motoroised pots for the volume control,
but still have manual control. I guess I watched too many Star
Trek shows with the main computer out of control. Notice how
now days when windows hangs you can't turn off the computer
with the power switch under the default bios setting.
BTW I got a nice sound systen so I can have music when I build
a TTL computer. Anybody got the data sheet for a 74ls189?
I can still get the chip $5.00 us but not the data sheet.
Ben
19 Nov
19 Nov
12:54 p.m.
New subject: Ot -- hi-fi and tubes
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Mike Ford wrote:
Is that url right? Looks like that one points to a web portal of
somesort...
-Toth
I see it in
ham radio. Tinkering is gone. Can't easily modify a LSI
circuit like you can with discrete components you don't have to have a
electron microscope to see.
The tinker gene is alive, but tinkering is indeed getting harder to do.
Kit building and ground up projects are very much alive in audio,
especially speakers. If you visit www.headwise.com you will see close to
a dozen different headphone amp projects.
16 Nov
16 Nov
1 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
I don't understand what the controversy is here. I
have a small chip collection, and I build working
computers out of many of these older chips. From
scratch, with wire wrap. Both hobbies have historical
and educational value. What is the point of
collecting, anyway? I suppose part of it might be
"lust and greed" (I have it and you don't, I have 20
and you have 10) but another important part is sharing
the history of the chip or machines with others. You
can do these things with chips or with computers.
Personally, I can't afford the former, and I enjoy the
latter more anyway.
I've taken probably working boards, removed chips, and
either sold them, displayed them, or used them to
build other machines with. None of these boards were
of incredible historical or irreplaceable value. One
thing you have to say about chip collecting is that it
takes up a lot less SPACE than collecting computers!
--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
Oh no, another rant from a pseudonym.
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm a chip collector and I would like to take
a
moment to defend my hobby.
1. Most chip collectors are very particular about
protecting their chips.
We just don't
throw them in the bottom of a drawer like
some "computer
enthusiasts".
I don't know of any computer you can just "throw in
the bottom of a
drawer" (unless you're talking about a Sinclair ZX81
or some handheld).
But even then, collectors don't throw their
computers in the bottom of a
drawer.
I could not
count the times that I've bought chips on
EBAY auctions that were
displayed
loose in a coffee can from someone who had
found them in grandpa's
shop.
Do you really think these chips are better
off going in the trash
than into some
chip collectors collection?
Yes, yes. We've heard your arguments before. But
we aren't talking about
loose chips in a tin can. We're talking about
pillaging working boards
for chips. If you're going to respond to a thread,
at least respond
within the context (no straw men here).
2. Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors
collection it's not gone from
the face
of the earth. It's carefully preserved for
future generations.
Yes, thank you. But hopefully it didn't come out of
a board that is now
gone from the face of the Earth. For instance, what
happened to that
Altair CPU board you bought because you wanted the
CPU?
3. The argument that a chip is better off inside
a vintage computer is like
saying
a coin is better off in circulation serving
its "intended" purpose
than
in some
collectors collection.
If that's where the chip came from then yes, it is.
By removing the chip
from a computer it once powered or helped work, you
are removing it from
its historical context. From a hobbyists point of
view, you are taking
something that once worked, removing one part of it
that will make it
unfunctioning, and then relishing the one, now
non-functioning, part over
the whole in which it once ran.
4. Many of the chips that chip collectors pay
alot of money for are "rare"
varieties
of "common" chips. For example, an Intel
C8080 vs. C8080A.
Vintage
computer enthusiasts don't
"need" an Intel
C8080. In fact, you would
probably
be better off with the more common and
"improved" C8080A.
Well, chip collectors don't really "need" an Intel
C8080 either, when a
C8080A will do quite nicely as a representative
sample, right? Unless
you have a cereal box prize mentality and must
"collect all 8!"
5. I think that alot of vintage computer
enthusiasts think that chip
collectors are
out there busting up Altair 8800's with
sledge hammers to get the chips
out of
them. That's simply not true. Chip
collectors hang out on in the same
areas of EBAY that you do. We know full
well
what rare machines are
worth.
I'll assure you, chip collectors are not
breaking up old machines for
chips.
What happened to that Altair CPU board?
In fact, it's just the opposite. I know
a
number of vintage machines
that have
been "saved" by chip collectors because they
recognized what they
were.
Examples? What happened to the chips?
If you really want a supply of vintage chips
for your vintage machines
in
20-30 years then you should be glad that a
C8008 brings $100 on EBAY
because of chip collectors. The reason you
should be glad is because
as the
word gets out that the early chips are worth
money, less of them will
end up
in the trash.
You're assuming some chip collector 20-30 years down
the road will be
willing to part with his rare C8008 that is now part
of his amazing
collection of dead silicon. Because in all
likelihood that's what it will
be anyway: dead.
that you guys have and not because of the
chips in them either. That
said,
we also recognize that the chips themselves
have historic value and
should
be preserved.
And we do too. We're the greatest chip collectors
because we have whole
computers full of them.
Many chip collectors would like to one day
obtain a
working vintage machine but I know more than
a few who have abandoned
this idea once they figured out that many
vintage computer enthusiasts
have such a negative view of chip
collectors.
Bullshit. You keep making this silly remark. I
believe this is your
opinion and your opinion alone. You're not gaining
any sympathy.
The same younger computer enthusiasts are
the
very people you need to
keep your
hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the
same people will try and
entire
your world from the world of chip collecting
and be totally turned off
by your
attitudes toward chip collectors.
Blah blah. Name one chip collector that has been
turned off by the
comments on this list. Now name all the chip
collectors you steered away
from this list because you feel we are biased
against chip collectors.
Sellam Ismail
Vintage Computer Festival
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia
at www.VintageTech.com *
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
12:32 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
I'm a chip collector and I would like to take a
moment to defend my
hobby.
Too bad you can't do a better job of it.
1. Most chip collectors are very particular about
protecting their
chips. We just don't throw them in the bottom of a drawer like some
"computer enthusiasts". I could not count the times that I've bought
chips on EBAY auctions that were displayed loose in a coffee can from
someone who had found them in grandpa's shop. Do you really think these
chips are better off going in the trash than into some chip collectors
collection?
Ya know, I've just about had it with all the "chip collectors" and their
myths, fairy tales, and outright lies. It seems many will say damned near
anything to justify their "hobby". I think it is downright disgusting how
most chip collectors are perfectly content to destroy a hard to find board
or even a complete system in order to grab that ultra **RARE** chip to add
to their "collection". Personally, if I were to acquire a chip collectors
prized chip collection, I'd think nothing of testing and stocking the
parts into my parts cabinets/inventory, ready for reuse in repairing
another old computer. Oh, and for any "chip collectors"^Wvultures lurking
on the list, I have a tube of NOS Intel 8008s that I bought at a very
reasonable price, which are ready for use in a Mark-8 or other 8008 based
computer when I get around to building one. If I ever had to part with
them, I'd rather give them away to someone who wanted to build something
with them instead of selling them to a "chip collector", even if they
could fetch $100-200/ea.
2. Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors
collection it's not gone
from the face of the earth. It's carefully preserved for future
generations.
Bullshit. In 3-5 years, many will likely be in a landfill somewhere. In
the case of the younger chip collectors (the number of which seem to be
growing at an alarming rate), their parents, not knowing what the chips
might be worth to someone, will end up dumping the whole lot in the bin
when the kid goes away to college and such.
I also don't consider styrofoam a good way to "carefully preserve" those
**RARE** chips. And if you think anti-static foam is any better, just you
wait 3-5 years, and you'll see the stuff will have damaged the leads of
the chips, due to chemicals released during the aging and decomposition of
that foam. Aluminum foil is just as bad, as it causes a reaction with the
copper/tin/gold leads, which leads to corrosion. The only safe ways to
store chips long term is either in anti-static tubes (so much for those
"display cases"), or in pc boards safely tucked away inside a system.
3. The argument that a chip is better off inside a
vintage computer is
like saying a coin is better off in circulation serving its "intended"
purpose than in some collectors collection.
You just love comparing Apples to Oranges don't you? Lets see if I can
create an analogy like yours... How about flowering plants? Are you saying
someone would be better off having a drawer full of seed packets instead
of a flowerbed full of flowers?
4. Many of the chips that chip collectors pay alot of
money for are
"rare" varieties of "common" chips. For example, an Intel C8080 vs.
C8080A. Vintage computer enthusiasts don't "need" an Intel C8080. In
fact, you would probably be better off with the more common and
"improved" C8080A.
Ah, but what of the computer designs that make use of or work around those
very "flaws" in the earlier chips? Those systems will not function the
same with an "improved" chip in place of the original **RARE** part.
5. I think that alot of vintage computer enthusiasts
think that chip
collectors are out there busting up Altair 8800's with sledge hammers to
get the chips out of them. That's simply not true. Chip collectors
hang out on in the same areas of EBAY that you do. We know full well
what rare machines are worth. I'll assure you, chip collectors are not
breaking up old machines for chips.
So what did happen to that Altair CPU board? ;)
In fact, it's just the opposite. I know a number
of vintage machines
that have been "saved" by chip collectors because they recognized what
they were.
Oh yeah? Since you know of a number of them, name them. I'd sure as hell
like to know of a few "chip collectors" that have some common sense.
6. There are FAR more chips than there are vintage
computers. Without
chip collectors there would not be much of a market for all these chips.
Sure you would be able to buy an C8008 for 1$ then but... You would also
have people throwing the old chips in the trash because they were not
worth listing on EBAY.
If there were far more chips than vintage computers, "chip collectors"
would not be searching out old computer boards to steal chips from. If the
chips were more common than the computers they make up, "chip collectors"
would have no trouble sourcing the parts they desire for their
"collection"... Hrm, doesn't that defeat the purpose of collecting chips,
if they are not **RARE**?
If you really want a supply of vintage chips for your
vintage machines
in 20-30 years then you should be glad that a C8008 brings $100 on EBAY
because of chip collectors. The reason you should be glad is because as
the word gets out that the early chips are worth money, less of them
will end up in the trash.
I seriously doubt most "chip collections" will be around in 20-30 years,
since most of the collectors seem to be of the younger generations, who
will outgrow their hobby as they move on to college and such. Too bad they
will have scavenged those **RARE** chips from an average of 3-10 computers
first...
7. Chips collectors will often sell chips for LESS
than you would pay
for them from a parts distributor. Also, many distributors will not
sell small quantities. I have sold spare chips out of my collection to
vintage computer enthusiasts. Most collectors have "spares" that they
acquire for trading. If you need a particular chip, changes are good
that you can get one from a collector if you offer the collector some
other chip that you have several of.
Again, bullshit. I bought my i8008 CPUs from a parts distributor. They
couldn't have cared less if the chip was potentially worth $100+, as those
chips had been in their inventory for nearly 20 years. If anything, eBay
and "chip collectors" are the causes for driving up prices to insane
levels. I'd be willing to bet there are number of "chip collectors" out
there who are sitting on 100-1000+ stocks of old CPUs such as the i4004
and i8008, that they bought off a distributor, and are waiting to sell
them off one at a time.
8. There's only a handful of "serious"
collectors who are willing to
pay $500-$1000 for rare versions of early chips. Most chip collectors
collect 186's, 286's, 386's, 486's, etc. In otherwords, chips that
vintage computer enthusiasts don't really care about anyway.
The serious collectors I think I'd be less worried about. Any serious
collector who is considering paying $500-$1000 for a chip likely already
has a fair collection of older computers, complete with some **RARE**
chips, so they'd be less likely to scavenge a board for a part. The
younger "chip collectors" who think nothing of pulling those **RARE**
chips from a perfectly good board are the ones who worry me.
The only thing vintage computer enthusiasts notice is
that old chips
routinely bring hundreds of dollars of EBAY. What you don't notice is
that it's the same group of a dozen collectors that are buying them.
If the handful of serious chip collectors were to each obtain an example
of every chip every made, it would not have much effect at all on the
ability of vintage computer enthusiasts to obtain replacement parts for
your machines. If you want to blame someone for the high price of
vintage chips, blame the people who melted down millions of them for
their gold content in the 80's, don't blame the handful of serious chip
collectors.
Most chips don't have that much gold content, so your logic here is
flawed. I think if you did some research, you'd find that many, many more
chips were tossed into landfills than were crushed for their precious
metal content.
9. I agree that a functioning vintage machine is
"more interesting"
than a chip in a display case. Most vintage chip collectors drool over
the vintage machines that you guys have and not because of the chips in
them either. That said, we also recognize that the chips themselves
have historic value and should be preserved. Many chip collectors would
like to one day obtain a working vintage machine but I know more than a
few who have abandoned this idea once they figured out that many vintage
computer enthusiasts have such a negative view of chip collectors.
It seems like functional systems are typically easier to find than the
chips that they are made of (unless the chips are scavenged).
That said, it's alot easier to get into chip
collecting than vintage
computer collecting. Chip collecting has the potential to bring alot of
new faces into the world of vintage computers but unfortunately I don't
see that happening any time soon.
Honestly, I don't see how that is. The individual chips are harder to come
by than complete systems. I think some people get into "chip collecting"
simply because they either don't know how to bring an old system back to
operational condition, or simply don't care to.
What many of you old timers don't realize it that
the "youngsters" that
came along after the 8088 naturally see computers as a collection of
components. Computer enthusiasts today don't buy prebuilt machines, they
build them from components and then constantly upgrade them. The very
concept of of collecting an entire machine is foreign to them because
their machines are constantly changing.
The current generation of PC computer enthusiasts don't build systems from
components. They build systems from boards, which are often made very
cheaply in poor countries. If individual components and information were
more readily available, and if the younger generation could be taught to
see past that "upgrade or be left behind" marketing, I believe more of
them would be building small computers made from lightweight CPUs and
logic chips.
That said, many of these types already have chip
collections, their
collections are old CPU's they saved when they upgraded their machines
over the years. You bring up chip collecting and they say that's pretty
cool, I already have a small collection.
Again, due to that "upgrade or be left behind" brainwashing...
The same younger computer enthusiasts are the very
people you need to
keep your hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the same people will
try and entire your world from the world of chip collecting and be
totally turned off by your attitudes toward chip collectors.
What classic computing needs is a new generation of hardware hackers and
tinkers, not "chip collectors". A true hardware hacker or tinker will
understand the value of an older computer, whereas most chips collectors
do not.
BTW, learn to format your emails.
-Toth
12:53 p.m.
New subject: Gripes was Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
Tothwolf wrote:
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
BTW, this is not only directed to you but *everyone* who is contributing
nothing but emotional gripes; GET A LIFE. John has contributed some
valuable information and seems to have a handle on the chip collecting
side of things. Lets take advantage of his knowledge rather than trying
to piss him off because of your personal problems.
Damn, this gets tiring seeing people gripe rather than offer
constructive comments.
I'm a chip collector and I would like to take
a moment to defend my
hobby.
Too bad you can't do a better job of it.
4:54 p.m.
New subject: Gripes was Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote:
BTW, this is not only directed to you but *everyone*
who is contributing
nothing but emotional gripes; GET A LIFE. John has contributed some
valuable information and seems to have a handle on the chip collecting
side of things. Lets take advantage of his knowledge rather than trying
to piss him off because of your personal problems.
I'll respond to this by repeating what "John" said to me:
It's a shame that the chip collector community can not find someone with a
better bed side manner to promote your hobby.
He has something personal against me. He chose to use a public forum to
attack me. Go tile the ocean.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
5:29 p.m.
New subject: Gripes was Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
"He has something personal against me".
Remember your post on this forum that started this over
a year ago when you refered to me as "the worlds biggest
fool" for paying x$ on EBAY for a vintage chip?
When you come out of the blue and start refering to people
as "fools" for collecting chips, what do you expect chip
collectors to think about your views on chip collecting?
He chose to use a public forum to attack me.
See "worlds biggest fool post above"
"Twist your words"?
I'm not twisting your words Sellam. I think you are just
finding it hard to make your point with out sounding
obnoxious and arrogant and others are noticing it.
I think it's really fun watching you publically humiliate yourself.
If I were you I would stop now before you humiliate
yourself even more. Go have a cup of tea with Toth.
I bet you two would really hit it off.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote:
Festival
BTW, this is not only directed to you but
*everyone* who is contributing
nothing but emotional gripes; GET A LIFE. John has contributed some
valuable information and seems to have a handle on the chip collecting
side of things. Lets take advantage of his knowledge rather than trying
to piss him off because of your personal problems.
I'll respond to this by repeating what "John" said to me:
It's a shame that the chip collector community can not find someone with a
better bed side manner to promote your hobby.
He has something personal against me. He chose to use a public forum to
attack me. Go tile the ocean.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at
www.VintageTech.com *
17 Nov
17 Nov
11:27 a.m.
New subject: Gripes was Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
Remember your post on this forum that started this
over
a year ago when you refered to me as "the worlds biggest
fool" for paying x$ on EBAY for a vintage chip?
When you come out of the blue and start refering to people
as "fools" for collecting chips, what do you expect chip
collectors to think about your views on chip collecting?
Yes, I remember. And I still think it's foolish, just like I thought it
was foolish to be spending the kind of money that was being paid for all
sorts of old computer things that are now currently "worth" a fraction of
the value on eBay. I got flak from this list over those comments, but I
think I've been mostly vindicated. You'll suffer the same once the
fad is over.
I think you are just finding it hard to make your
point with out
sounding obnoxious and arrogant and others are noticing it. I think it's
really fun watching you publically humiliate yourself.
In any style of writing, it's hard to make a point when certain people
don't have the level of intelligence to comprehend what is written. You
can count yourself among these "certain people".
I've stated what I feel about chip collecting. You can choose to read
what you want into it to fuel your own conspiracy theories about how
computer collectors are out to destroy the chip collector community.
If I were you I would stop now before you humiliate
yourself even more.
It's difficult to be humiliated when one is right, and your sparring
opponent is not very bright and uses a pseudonym. I am unaffected by
anonymity. Your desperation is showing through.
I've asked you to forward your proof to me that I am turning people away
from "your" hobby but none has arrived. I
also challenge you to come up
with one remark I've made condemning chip
collecting.
Throw down, boy.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
1:08 p.m.
New subject: Gripes was Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
Sellam,
This mailing list has a function besides being a private
battleground for the two of us. I think everyone here
understands our positions and has now drawn their
conclusions.
I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that the fact that you are
resorting to name calling and insults ("fool", "dweeb", "not
very bright", etc) is pretty pathetic and proves that you have
nothing more than insults to contribute to this issue.
While I would love to continue toying with you just to
watch you destroy what little credibility you have left, I
know that the other members of the mailing list must be
growing tired of this. I am too and I will not respond to
anymore of your insults.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 4:30 AM
Subject: Re: Gripes was Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with
holes in it]
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
Festival
Remember your post on this forum that started
this over
a year ago when you refered to me as "the worlds biggest
fool" for paying x$ on EBAY for a vintage chip?
When you come out of the blue and start refering to people
as "fools" for collecting chips, what do you expect chip
collectors to think about your views on chip collecting?
Yes, I remember. And I still think it's foolish, just like I thought it
was foolish to be spending the kind of money that was being paid for all
sorts of old computer things that are now currently "worth" a fraction of
the value on eBay. I got flak from this list over those comments, but I
think I've been mostly vindicated. You'll suffer the same once the
fad is over.
I think you are just finding it hard to make
your point with out
sounding obnoxious and arrogant and others are noticing it. I think it's
really fun watching you publically humiliate yourself.
In any style of writing, it's hard to make a point when certain people
don't have the level of intelligence to comprehend what is written. You
can count yourself among these "certain people".
I've stated what I feel about chip collecting. You can choose to read
what you want into it to fuel your own conspiracy theories about how
computer collectors are out to destroy the chip collector community.
If I were you I would stop now before you
humiliate yourself even more.
It's difficult to be humiliated when one is right, and your sparring
opponent is not very bright and uses a pseudonym. I am unaffected by
anonymity. Your desperation is showing through.
I've asked you to forward your proof to me that I am turning people away
from "your" hobby but none has arrived. I also challenge you to come up
with one remark I've made condemning chip collecting.
Throw down, boy.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at
www.VintageTech.com *
11:54 p.m.
New subject: Gripes was Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
This mailing list has a function besides being a
private battleground
for the two of us. I think everyone here understands our positions and
has now drawn their conclusions.
Probably. But my conclusion remains that you are a serious jackass.
I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that the
fact that you are
resorting to name calling and insults ("fool", "dweeb", "not
very bright", etc) is pretty pathetic and proves that you have
nothing more than insults to contribute to this issue.
I think that what you think matters not. What you actually say, and what
you actually have to offer this mailing list (and the computer collecting
community as a whole) is far more important. So far, the only messages
you have posted here in recent memory have been personal attacks and
unsubstantiated allegations. In other words, you've been a drain on
resources. I won't speak for anyone other than myself when I say that you
have offered absolutely nothing of value to us.
I have a record of nearly six years of contributions to the mailing list
plus numerous public events held to benefit this little community of ours.
My reputation stands on its own.
While I would love to continue toying with you just to
watch you destroy
what little credibility you have left, I know that the other members of
the mailing list must be growing tired of this.
Oh, I'm sure they tired of this long ago, and the very few that are still
reading along probably see this as simply a battle between two idiots. In
that case, I willingly cede this to you. You are definitely the bigger
idiot.
I am too and I will not respond to anymore of your
insults.
Excellent. But maybe you would be kind enough to respond in private
e-mail with the proof I've asked you to provide me which I have yet to
receive?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
10:13 a.m.
New subject: Gripes was Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
So stop griping!
This seems like a resonable, on-topic discussion.
Marvin Johnston wrote:
Tothwolf wrote:
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
BTW, this is not only directed to you but *everyone* who is contributing
nothing but emotional gripes; GET A LIFE. John has contributed some
valuable information and seems to have a handle on the chip collecting
side of things. Lets take advantage of his knowledge rather than trying
to piss him off because of your personal problems.
Damn, this gets tiring seeing people gripe rather than offer
constructive comments.
I'm a chip collector and I would like to take
a moment to defend my
hobby.
Too bad you can't do a better job of it.
11:43 a.m.
New subject: Gripes was Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
So stop griping!
This seems like a resonable, on-topic discussion.
...and we are aiming that pistol straight at our own feet.
Cripes, guys, if we continue to nail these chip collectors to the wall
with broad generalizations based on nothing but a few anecdotes and shakey
evidence, these guys *will* start going out of there way to scrap good
machines for chips, just to spite us.
It is just like pissing off a scrap dealer - really try *not* to do this,
as some of those guys can swing a sledgehammer with great accuracy.
So everybody chill out, please. If you don't want to deal with chip
collectors, than DON'T. There are plenty of goodies for everbody.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
16 Nov
16 Nov
1:17 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
Man! And I thought Sellam was a hard ass.
Toth, there's no point in responding to your flames. I'm not
interested in a flame war.
But I will say this. I get emails from teenagers who collect "old"
chips (286's, 386's, 486's, etc) all the time. Some become more
serious collectors and some don't. Sometimes their collections do
get dumped in the dumpster when they go off to college.
These are not the collectors paying $500 for a rare chips. I do
try and encourage them and give them information on how to
preserve their chips and properly store them and display them.
Yes, I buy chips all the time on EBAY where the pins have turned
black because the anti-static foam they were in has "melted".
Fortunately, there's new anti-static foam out now that does not
do this. It's the same as the PVC "slips" that coins collectors
used to use. They were turning coins green. Now they have new
slips that don't do this to coins just like they now have anti-static
foam that does not melt.
I could go on and on but it's a waste of time trying to
educate someone like you.
JA - I'm trying to stay under 80 bytes but it's still
fragmenting my replies. Will see how this one
goes.
---- Original Message -----
From: "Tothwolf" <tothwolf(a)concentric.net>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
I'm a chip collector and I would like to take
a moment to defend my
hobby.
Too bad you can't do a better job of it.
1. Most chip collectors are very particular
about protecting their
chips. We just don't throw them in the bottom of a drawer like some
"computer enthusiasts". I could not count the times that I've bought
chips on EBAY auctions that were displayed loose in a coffee can from
someone who had found them in grandpa's shop. Do you really think these
chips are better off going in the trash than into some chip collectors
collection?
Ya know, I've just about had it with all the "chip collectors" and their
myths, fairy tales, and outright lies. It seems many will say damned near
anything to justify their "hobby". I think it is downright disgusting how
most chip collectors are perfectly content to destroy a hard to find board
or even a complete system in order to grab that ultra **RARE** chip to add
to their "collection". Personally, if I were to acquire a chip collectors
prized chip collection, I'd think nothing of testing and stocking the
parts into my parts cabinets/inventory, ready for reuse in repairing
another old computer. Oh, and for any "chip collectors"^Wvultures lurking
on the list, I have a tube of NOS Intel 8008s that I bought at a very
reasonable price, which are ready for use in a Mark-8 or other 8008 based
computer when I get around to building one. If I ever had to part with
them, I'd rather give them away to someone who wanted to build something
with them instead of selling them to a "chip collector", even if they
could fetch $100-200/ea.
2. Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors
collection it's not gone
from the face of the earth. It's carefully preserved for future
generations.
Bullshit. In 3-5 years, many will likely be in a landfill somewhere. In
the case of the younger chip collectors (the number of which seem to be
growing at an alarming rate), their parents, not knowing what the chips
might be worth to someone, will end up dumping the whole lot in the bin
when the kid goes away to college and such.
I also don't consider styrofoam a good way to "carefully preserve" those
**RARE** chips. And if you think anti-static foam is any better, just you
wait 3-5 years, and you'll see the stuff will have damaged the leads of
the chips, due to chemicals released during the aging and decomposition of
that foam. Aluminum foil is just as bad, as it causes a reaction with the
copper/tin/gold leads, which leads to corrosion. The only safe ways to
store chips long term is either in anti-static tubes (so much for those
"display cases"), or in pc boards safely tucked away inside a system.
3. The argument that a chip is better off inside
a vintage computer is
like saying a coin is better off in circulation serving its "intended"
purpose than in some collectors collection.
You just love comparing Apples to Oranges don't you? Lets see if I can
create an analogy like yours... How about flowering plants? Are you saying
someone would be better off having a drawer full of seed packets instead
of a flowerbed full of flowers?
4. Many of the chips that chip collectors pay
alot of money for are
"rare" varieties of "common" chips. For example, an Intel C8080 vs.
C8080A. Vintage computer enthusiasts don't "need" an Intel C8080. In
fact, you would probably be better off with the more common and
"improved" C8080A.
Ah, but what of the computer designs that make use of or work around those
very "flaws" in the earlier chips? Those systems will not function the
same with an "improved" chip in place of the original **RARE** part.
5. I think that alot of vintage computer
enthusiasts think that chip
collectors are out there busting up Altair 8800's with sledge hammers to
get the chips out of them. That's simply not true. Chip collectors
hang out on in the same areas of EBAY that you do. We know full well
what rare machines are worth. I'll assure you, chip collectors are not
breaking up old machines for chips.
So what did happen to that Altair CPU board? ;)
In fact, it's just the opposite. I know a
number of vintage machines
that have been "saved" by chip collectors because they recognized what
they were.
Oh yeah? Since you know of a number of them, name them. I'd sure as hell
like to know of a few "chip collectors" that have some common sense.
6. There are FAR more chips than there are
vintage computers. Without
chip collectors there would not be much of a market for all these chips.
Sure you would be able to buy an C8008 for 1$ then but... You would also
have people throwing the old chips in the trash because they were not
worth listing on EBAY.
If there were far more chips than vintage computers, "chip collectors"
would not be searching out old computer boards to steal chips from. If the
chips were more common than the computers they make up, "chip collectors"
would have no trouble sourcing the parts they desire for their
"collection"... Hrm, doesn't that defeat the purpose of collecting chips,
if they are not **RARE**?
If you really want a supply of vintage chips for
your vintage machines
in 20-30 years then you should be glad that a C8008 brings $100 on EBAY
because of chip collectors. The reason you should be glad is because as
the word gets out that the early chips are worth money, less of them
will end up in the trash.
I seriously doubt most "chip collections" will be around in 20-30 years,
since most of the collectors seem to be of the younger generations, who
will outgrow their hobby as they move on to college and such. Too bad they
will have scavenged those **RARE** chips from an average of 3-10 computers
first...
7. Chips collectors will often sell chips for
LESS than you would pay
for them from a parts distributor. Also, many distributors will not
sell small quantities. I have sold spare chips out of my collection to
vintage computer enthusiasts. Most collectors have "spares" that they
acquire for trading. If you need a particular chip, changes are good
that you can get one from a collector if you offer the collector some
other chip that you have several of.
Again, bullshit. I bought my i8008 CPUs from a parts distributor. They
couldn't have cared less if the chip was potentially worth $100+, as those
chips had been in their inventory for nearly 20 years. If anything, eBay
and "chip collectors" are the causes for driving up prices to insane
levels. I'd be willing to bet there are number of "chip collectors" out
there who are sitting on 100-1000+ stocks of old CPUs such as the i4004
and i8008, that they bought off a distributor, and are waiting to sell
them off one at a time.
8. There's only a handful of
"serious" collectors who are willing to
pay $500-$1000 for rare versions of early chips. Most chip collectors
collect 186's, 286's, 386's, 486's, etc. In otherwords, chips that
vintage computer enthusiasts don't really care about anyway.
The serious collectors I think I'd be less worried about. Any serious
collector who is considering paying $500-$1000 for a chip likely already
has a fair collection of older computers, complete with some **RARE**
chips, so they'd be less likely to scavenge a board for a part. The
younger "chip collectors" who think nothing of pulling those **RARE**
chips from a perfectly good board are the ones who worry me.
The only thing vintage computer enthusiasts
notice is that old chips
routinely bring hundreds of dollars of EBAY. What you don't notice is
that it's the same group of a dozen collectors that are buying them.
If the handful of serious chip collectors were to each obtain an example
of every chip every made, it would not have much effect at all on the
ability of vintage computer enthusiasts to obtain replacement parts for
your machines. If you want to blame someone for the high price of
vintage chips, blame the people who melted down millions of them for
their gold content in the 80's, don't blame the handful of serious chip
collectors.
Most chips don't have that much gold content, so your logic here is
flawed. I think if you did some research, you'd find that many, many more
chips were tossed into landfills than were crushed for their precious
metal content.
9. I agree that a functioning vintage machine is
"more interesting"
than a chip in a display case. Most vintage chip collectors drool over
the vintage machines that you guys have and not because of the chips in
them either. That said, we also recognize that the chips themselves
have historic value and should be preserved. Many chip collectors would
like to one day obtain a working vintage machine but I know more than a
few who have abandoned this idea once they figured out that many vintage
computer enthusiasts have such a negative view of chip collectors.
It seems like functional systems are typically easier to find than the
chips that they are made of (unless the chips are scavenged).
That said, it's alot easier to get into chip
collecting than vintage
computer collecting. Chip collecting has the potential to bring alot of
new faces into the world of vintage computers but unfortunately I don't
see that happening any time soon.
Honestly, I don't see how that is. The individual chips are harder to come
by than complete systems. I think some people get into "chip collecting"
simply because they either don't know how to bring an old system back to
operational condition, or simply don't care to.
What many of you old timers don't realize it
that the "youngsters" that
came along after the 8088 naturally see computers as a collection of
components. Computer enthusiasts today don't buy prebuilt machines, they
build them from components and then constantly upgrade them. The very
concept of of collecting an entire machine is foreign to them because
their machines are constantly changing.
The current generation of PC computer enthusiasts don't build systems from
components. They build systems from boards, which are often made very
cheaply in poor countries. If individual components and information were
more readily available, and if the younger generation could be taught to
see past that "upgrade or be left behind" marketing, I believe more of
them would be building small computers made from lightweight CPUs and
logic chips.
That said, many of these types already have chip
collections, their
collections are old CPU's they saved when they upgraded their machines
over the years. You bring up chip collecting and they say that's pretty
cool, I already have a small collection.
Again, due to that "upgrade or be left behind" brainwashing...
The same younger computer enthusiasts are the
very people you need to
keep your hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the same people will
try and entire your world from the world of chip collecting and be
totally turned off by your attitudes toward chip collectors.
What classic computing needs is a new generation of hardware hackers and
tinkers, not "chip collectors". A true hardware hacker or tinker will
understand the value of an older computer, whereas most chips collectors
do not.
BTW, learn to format your emails.
-Toth
1:20 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
A few things for the record...
And if you think anti-static foam is any better, just
you
wait 3-5 years, and you'll see the stuff will have damaged the leads of
the chips, due to chemicals released during the aging and decomposition of
that foam.
This depends *entirely* on the quality of the foam. I have had some foam
that deteriorated in a couple of years, and some that I still use after
almost 20 years, with no significant effect on chips in storage. Also,
foam is easily replaced.
The only safe ways to
store chips long term is either in anti-static tubes (so much for those
"display cases"), or in pc boards safely tucked away inside a system.
Keeping a chip in a working system will degrade its life (thermal and
electrical stress, sometimes extreme in a crummy design).
Ah, but what of the computer designs that make use of
or work around those
very "flaws" in the earlier chips? Those systems will not function the
same with an "improved" chip in place of the original **RARE** part.
This is indeed a very good point. Some of us are very interested in
having all of the chips original, and replacements "proper" to
manuafacturer and datecodes, as it tells a story about the manufacturing.
I seriously doubt most "chip collections"
will be around in 20-30 years,
since most of the collectors seem to be of the younger generations, who
will outgrow their hobby as they move on to college and such.
They said this about the tube collectors, and those collecting pocket
transistor radios. They were wrong, in a pretty big way.
Most chips don't have that much gold content, so
your logic here is
flawed. I think if you did some research, you'd find that many, many more
chips were tossed into landfills than were crushed for their precious
metal content.
I think that most people on this list really have no idea about the
precious metals content of chips. It is surpisingly high. Take a look
at:
http://www.mrsscrap.com/scrapvalue.html
Keep in mind that these approximate values are for today's scrap, not
stuff from 20 years ago. Back then, things were actually much better
(that is, thicker gold plate). Those gold 8080s were certainly worth
plucking out of sockets. Even the plastic DIPs, like lowly 7400 series
stuff, was worth removing in quantity. Still is, in fact.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
2:26 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
From: "William Donzelli"
<aw288(a)osfn.org>
I think that most people on this list really have no idea about the
precious metals content of chips. It is surpisingly high. Take a look
at: http://www.mrsscrap.com/scrapvalue.html
Now, this will make you cry:
Gold Sidebraze and Flatpaks $15.00-$75.00 per pound
These guys are defintely on the side of Darkness, so I'm gonna say _anyone_
who's keeping old ICs out of the furnace is on my side.
5:32 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
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18 Nov
18 Nov
10:30 a.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
> 6. There are FAR more chips than there are
vintage computers. Without
> chip collectors there would not be much of a market for all these chips.
> Sure you would be able to buy an C8008 for 1$ then but... You would also
> have people throwing the old chips in the trash because they were not
> worth listing on EBAY.
If there were far more chips than vintage computers,
"chip collectors"
would not be searching out old computer boards to steal chips from. If the
chips were more common than the computers they make up, "chip collectors"
would have no trouble sourcing the parts they desire for their
"collection"... Hrm, doesn't that defeat the purpose of collecting chips,
if they are not **RARE**?
Well, I have to admit, I salvaged computer board on a regular base
(and still do this (*1)). Basicly my whole pile of spare parts are
used chips. I can relate to do so, so no hard feeling in the basic
facts. I just get terrible upset about ship collecting when I see
what is taken from the boards... just two or three components with
'great' names, and throw away the rest. The real raere stuff lies
among the support chips or just plain TTLs. A 8080 CPU replacement
is still quite easy to come by, but what about some weired shift
registers, or clock generators?
The kind of scrapping done here is to me like some self proclaimed
hunter shoot aTiger just to get a photo (since they are not allowed
to get the fur legaly back home), or poachers who shoot an Elephant
just to sell the teeth to some which doctors, and let teh rest rot
away. Don't get me wrong, I'm a meat eater, and I got no problem in
killing an animal. Just if I doo so, the whole cadaver is supposed
to be processed.
Gruss
H.
(*1) Now everybody is free to jump on me for using a heatgun to
unsolder a bunch of 8080 boards last week.
--
VCF Europa 4.0 am 03./04. Mai 2003 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
16 Nov
16 Nov
5:31 p.m.
New subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
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