29 Jan
2014
29 Jan
'14
1:41 p.m.
On Jan 29, 2014 9:36 AM, "Paul Koning" <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:55 PM, tom <thomas.w.cranston at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...
> Legal - In some parts of the world documents faxed are considered
legal, as if
the had been hand delivered.
The USA is such a place.
I don't recall the exact wording, but basically any setup that scans a
physical document, transfers a representation over a telecommunication
system, and recreates it as s physical document again meets the US legal
definition of facsimile. There doesn't have to be a "fax machine" as you
would normally consider it, and Internet email should qualify for the
telecommunication, but if the document doesn't start and end in physical
form, it isn't a fax.
In other words, if I sign a paper contract, scan it, email it to someone,
and they print it, it has been faxed. But if I start with a PDF file, sign
it in a graphics program, and email that, it has not been faxed because it
did not originate as a physical document. If the PDF was originally a scan
of a paper document, but I fill it in digitally, then email it, that's not
a fax because the electronic document is not an accurate, unaltered
representation of a physical document.
[I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a suitably large grain of salt.]
29 Jan
29 Jan
2:07 p.m.
On Jan 29, 2014, at 1:41 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
I don't recall the exact wording, but basically
any setup that scans a
physical document, transfers a representation over a telecommunication
system, and recreates it as s physical document again meets the US legal
definition of facsimile. There doesn't have to be a "fax machine" as you
would normally consider it, and Internet email should qualify for the
telecommunication, but if the document doesn't start and end in physical
form, it isn't a fax.
In other words, if I sign a paper contract, scan it, email it to someone,
and they print it, it has been faxed. But if I start with a PDF file, sign
it in a graphics program, and email that, it has not been faxed because it
did not originate as a physical document. If the PDF was originally a scan
of a paper document, but I fill it in digitally, then email it, that's not
a fax because the electronic document is not an accurate, unaltered
representation of a physical document.
[I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a suitably large grain of salt.]
No bank I've dealt with seems to think that way. They're the only
reason I ever have to fax anything anymore. Fortunately it's seldom
enough (and little enough) that I can usually make use of the three
or so free pages provided by a number of web-to-fax gateways.
- Dave
3:12 p.m.
On 01/29/2014 10:41 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
In other words, if I sign a paper contract, scan it,
email it to someone,
and they print it, it has been faxed. But if I start with a PDF file, sign
it in a graphics program, and email that, it has not been faxed because it
did not originate as a physical document. If the PDF was originally a scan
of a paper document, but I fill it in digitally, then email it, that's not
a fax because the electronic document is not an accurate, unaltered
representation of a physical document.
[I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a suitably large grain of salt.]
I believe that the case varies from state-to-state. I can remember
voting on a legislature-sponsored measure that legitimized "electronic
signatures" in my own state, for example.
--Chuck
5:37 p.m.
On Jan 29, 2014 1:34 PM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I believe that the case varies from state-to-state. I
can remember
voting on a legislature-sponsored measure that legitimized
"electronic
signatures" in my own state, for example.
I don't doubt that state law varies, but I was referring to the definition
of fax in federal law, which in any case has little bearing on "electronic"
signatures in the more general case.
4:09 p.m.
On 01/29/2014 01:41 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
I don't recall the exact wording, but basically
any setup that scans a
physical document, transfers a representation over a telecommunication
system, and recreates it as s physical document again meets the US legal
definition of facsimile. There doesn't have to be a "fax machine" as you
would normally consider it, and Internet email should qualify for the
telecommunication, but if the document doesn't start and end in physical
form, it isn't a fax.
Untrue - see http://www.ecsi.net/help/help_esig.html
Electronic Signatures Act
On June 30, 2000, President Clinton signed into law the Electronic
Records and Signatures in Commerce Act (or Electronic Signatures Act).
The president signed the act both electronically and using the more
traditional pen-and-ink.
The Electronic Signatures Act (Public Law No: 106-229) went into effect
on October 1, 2000 and gives electronic contracts the same weight as
those executed on paper. The act has some specific exemptions or
preemptions, notably the provision concerning student loans (section
107, (b)(3)).
Although the act enables documents to be signed electronically, the
option to do so lies solely with the consumer. In other words, no
portion of the act requires you to sign documents electronically, you
retain the right to use 'paper & ink' documents at your discretion.
The act specifically avoids stipulating any 'approved' form of
electronic signature, instead leaving the method open to interpretation
by the marketplace. Any number of methods are acceptable under the act.
Methods include simply pressing an I Accept button, digital
certificates, smart cards and biometrics.
10:29 p.m.
On 1/29/2014 12:41 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014 9:36 AM, "Paul Koning"
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
You're position is correct, save one item. The document need not end up
in physical form to be a legal fax. It must simply be convertable to a
physical document (so, animated images from a fax machine would not be
legal, if such a thing could be created). Companies also have the option
of scanning paper documents into electronic versions and considering
those the "legal" version of that document. Most financial services
organizations do that now, using one of many contract management or
document management/workflow systems to automatically scan all incoming
mail to digital format, immediately shredding the original paper copies.
The same is true of "electronic documents". If the resulting document
cannot be converted to an identical hard copy version, it cannot be
considered a legal electronic document. This makes sense, as otherwise,
contracts could contain disappearing sections, etc. Thus, many entities
that allow electronic documents (typically because they allow electronic
signatures) specify PDF/A as the only usable format for electronic
storage. PDF/A is a subset of PDF that does not allow the animated
stuff (and some other things, but you can go grab the standard if you
want the boring details).
IANAL, but I have worked with them extensively on sSignatures and the
legal requirements for mailed and faxed contract retention, from a
financial services perspective, which is heavily regulated.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
On Jan 28, 2014, at 10:55 PM, tom <thomas.w.cranston at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...
> Legal - In some parts of the world documents faxed are considered
legal, as if
the had been hand delivered.
The USA is such a place.
I don't
recall the exact wording, but basically any setup that scans a
physical document, transfers a representation over a telecommunication
system, and recreates it as s physical document again meets the US legal
definition of facsimile. There doesn't have to be a "fax machine" as you
would normally consider it, and Internet email should qualify for the
telecommunication, but if the document doesn't start and end in physical
form, it isn't a fax.
In other words, if I sign a paper contract, scan it, email it to someone,
and they print it, it has been faxed. But if I start with a PDF file, sign
it in a graphics program, and email that, it has not been faxed because it
did not originate as a physical document. If the PDF was originally a scan
of a paper document, but I fill it in digitally, then email it, that's not
a fax because the electronic document is not an accurate, unaltered
representation of a physical document.
[I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a suitably large grain of salt.]
10:37 p.m.
Bah, sorry about the "you're" faux paux. One should proof their emails
to this list, I know.
Hopefully, it does not take away from the rest of the content.
Jim
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