15 Jul
2016
15 Jul
'16
8:03 p.m.
I'm toying with putting the "ultimate" classic Mac together, although
I'm
having a little difficulty pinning down the definition of what the ultimate
representation of the type is, so was looking for a little input from
Classic CMP'ers.
I'm aware that there's a clear divide between Motorola and PowerPC CPU'd
variants, so I'm going to plump for a PowerPC based version so that I can
get access to newer hardware and use it as a kind of bridge system between
my current computers and the more historic versions.
In terms of hardware I have a lovely mirror-door G4 PowerMac I'm intending
to use. I have the original media that shipped with this, so I can get
9.2.1 on it relatively easily. Are there any add-in cards (PCI) I should
be considering? It has a built in Airport Card (possibly Airport Extreme?)
although my home Wi-Fi is 802.11n or better with WPA2 so I'll just use
Ethernet to connect it to my LAN. Was a gigabit ethernet card ever
released with Mac OS 9 drivers? I have a couple of 600GB PATA disks that I
can use with it, but has there ever been a SATA implementation that worked
with classic Mac OS?
Also, I have an Asant? ether bridge tucked away somewhere that I hope to be
able to use to connect some of my older Mac OS boxen without Ethernet.
In terms of the software - any top-line utilities or System Extensions I
should look to get my hands on? What's the state of the art in classic Mac
OS browsing nowadays, Mr Kaiser - is Clasilla still maintained?
-Austin.
15 Jul
15 Jul
8:29 p.m.
On 7/15/16 12:03 PM, Austin Pass wrote:
I have a lovely mirror-door G4 PowerMac I'm
intending
to use.
bad idea.
Mirror door G4's were the least reliable machines we released.
Too many compromises getting to a GHz, esp WRT noise and heat.
I personally like Beige G3's, or mid-life G4's for differing reasons.
And I use a Wallstreet daily (last portable with ADB and SCSI).
8:58 p.m.
I have a "pinstripe" grey G4 PowerMac with (if memory serves) a 400Mhz CPU -
would this be a safer bet?
Is there any way to underclock the 1.25Ghz CPU's in the mirror door for improved
reliability in the mirror door?
We used the MD PowerMac as an OS X 10.3 server running Macintosh Manager catering for two
suites of eMacs and iMacs running 9.2.1 "back in the day", and I don't
recall it being overly unreliable.
-Austin.
Sent from my iPhone
On 15 Jul 2016, at 20:29, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 7/15/16 12:03 PM, Austin Pass wrote:
I have a lovely mirror-door G4 PowerMac I'm intending
to use.
bad idea.
Mirror door G4's were the least reliable machines we released.
Too many compromises getting to a GHz, esp WRT noise and heat.
I personally like Beige G3's, or mid-life G4's for differing reasons.
And I use a Wallstreet daily (last portable with ADB and SCSI).
9:15 p.m.
On 7/15/16 12:58 PM, Austin Pass wrote:
I have a "pinstripe" grey G4 PowerMac with
(if memory serves) a 400Mhz CPU - would this be a safer bet?
Yes, that or a slightly faster one. I like the ones where we went with gigabit ethernet
(2nd gen G4?)
Is there any way to underclock the 1.25Ghz CPU's
in the mirror door for improved reliability in the mirror door?
Not without a rom change.
One of the big problems was this was the first machine with tightly tuned ddr memory and
there
was a lot of magic performed to get it reliable.
It's been a while, if it's 1.25, this may have been a next generation G4 that
wasn't so power hungry.
First gen MDD was bad.
I was off of G4 and working on bringing up G5 by that time.
9:36 p.m.
Anecdotally, this may be the case. I ran my dual 1.25 MDD for six or seven years without a
single hardware failure. It's probably still fine, but I haven't tried to turn it
on since I upgraded to a Mac Pro (geez, eight years ago).
ok
bear.
--
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 15, 2016, at 13:15, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 7/15/16 12:58 PM, Austin Pass wrote:
I have a "pinstripe" grey G4 PowerMac with (if memory serves) a 400Mhz CPU -
would this be a safer bet?
Yes, that or a slightly faster one. I like the ones where we went with gigabit ethernet
(2nd gen G4?)
Is there any way to underclock the 1.25Ghz
CPU's in the mirror door for improved reliability in the mirror door?
Not without a rom change.
One of the big problems was this was the first machine with tightly tuned ddr memory and
there
was a lot of magic performed to get it reliable.
It's been a while, if it's 1.25, this may have been a next generation G4 that
wasn't so power hungry.
First gen MDD was bad.
I was off of G4 and working on bringing up G5 by that time.
9:49 p.m.
On 15 Jul 2016, at 21:15, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
I didn't realise the ethernet was gigabit! We had it connected to a fairly
undistinguished 100Mbit switch.
I have several G5's, but am at a loss as to what to do with them. If they supported
classic Mac OS I'd have one up and running in a heartbeat.
What was the juciest AGP graphics card for the G4? Some form of GeForce?
-Austin.
On 7/15/16 12:58 PM, Austin Pass wrote:
I have a "pinstripe" grey G4 PowerMac with (if memory serves) a 400Mhz CPU -
would this be a safer bet?
Yes, that or a slightly faster one. I like the ones where we went with gigabit ethernet
(2nd gen G4?)
Is there any way to underclock the 1.25Ghz
CPU's in the mirror door for improved reliability in the mirror door?
Not without a rom change.
One of the big problems was this was the first machine with tightly tuned ddr memory and
there
was a lot of magic performed to get it reliable.
It's been a while, if it's 1.25, this may have been a next generation G4 that
wasn't so power hungry.
First gen MDD was bad.
I was off of G4 and working on bringing up G5 by that time.
17 Jul
17 Jul
8:47 p.m.
On Jul 15, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Austin Pass <austinpass at gmail.com> wrote:
I have several G5's, but am at a loss as to what
to do with them. If they supported classic Mac OS I'd have one up and running in a
heartbeat.
You can't boot MacOS 9 on them, but you can run Classic under 10.4 on a G5 and it
screams.
-- Chris
15 Jul
15 Jul
9:33 p.m.
On Jul 15, 2016, at 2:03 PM, Austin Pass <austinpass at gmail.com> wrote:
?.
Mr Kaiser - is Clasilla still maintained?
?.
Yup:
http://www.floodgap.com/software/classilla/
Have not used it, but I am up-to-date on a G3 (iMac) and a G4 (PowerBook) with TenFourFox
and use them regularly.
http://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/
Depending on your PowerPC and choice of OS, that might be attractive. Either can still
run OS9 applications.
- Mark
9:54 p.m.
On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Austin Pass wrote:
I'm toying with putting the "ultimate"
classic Mac together, although
I'm having a little difficulty pinning down the definition of what the
ultimate representation of the type is, so was looking for a little
input from Classic CMP'ers.
I've recently been through that exercise with M68k Macs. I settled on the
Quadra 700 and the Quadra/Centris 660AV. However, I think you'll hear a
lot of people also recommend the Quadra 950 and Apple Workgroup Server 95.
However, I realize you aren't interested and are looking at the PPC
systems.
I'm aware that there's a clear divide between
Motorola and PowerPC CPU'd
variants, so I'm going to plump for a PowerPC based version so that I
can get access to newer hardware and use it as a kind of bridge system
between my current computers and the more historic versions.
I've contemplated doing a PPC rig, too. For me, I don't care much about
hyper-expandibilty. I like the more blingy hardware. So, for me, at the
top of the pyramid stand two systems: the G4 Cube and the 20th Anniversary
Mac. The Cube is now cheap on fleabay. It's prime time to grab those. If
one comes up on cheap Craigslist here in Denver, I'll probably snag it and
warehouse it for a while. I am just not motivated enough to pay shipping
or Ebay prices, yet.
IMHO, most of the tower systems were too "plasticy" and the desktop
Performa-styled boxes were uglier than homemade sin.
I have the original media that shipped with this, so I
can get 9.2.1 on
it relatively easily.
You'll want to Google MacOS PPC. Let's simply say "it's out there"
and
easy to get. Unless you just want the manuals an screen-printed discs,
which I understand, too.
Was a gigabit ethernet card ever released with Mac OS
9 drivers?
Ohhhh, yeah. Lots of them. Check out lowendmac or the like. They have
lists of them.
I have a couple of 600GB PATA disks that I can use
with it, but has
there ever been a SATA implementation that worked with classic Mac OS?
Not sure about that, but I can tell you that there are ton of SCSI
controllers and you can use an expensive SATA-to-SCSI bridge like the one
sold by ACARD. I use several of those on various machines and they rock.
In terms of the software - any top-line utilities or
System Extensions I
should look to get my hands on?
Yes. Get the disk utilities that allow you to use non-Apple disks. The one
that comes to mind the fastest is Lacie Silverlining and LIDO.
What's the state of the art in classic Mac OS
browsing nowadays, Mr
Kaiser - is Clasilla still maintained?
He will know better than me, but your best bet IMO, is either iCab or
Clasilla, for sure.
-Swift
16 Jul
16 Jul
8:01 a.m.
On 15 Jul 2016, at 21:54, Swift Griggs <swiftgriggs
at gmail.com> wrote:
I have a G4 Cube, complete with ADC Apple Cinema Display but it (subjectively) feels
slower in normal use than the MDD, with a single 400Mhz G4 and PC100 SDRAM vs dual 1.25Ghz
and PC2700 DDR RAM.
I have lots of 68k Macs and love them dearly, but was looking for the biggest, best,
fastest that could be used with Mac OS 9.
-Austin.
On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Austin Pass wrote:
I'm toying with putting the "ultimate" classic Mac together, although
I'm having a little difficulty pinning down the definition of what the
ultimate representation of the type is, so was looking for a little
input from Classic CMP'ers.
I've recently been through that exercise with M68k Macs. I settled on the
Quadra 700 and the Quadra/Centris 660AV. However, I think you'll hear a
lot of people also recommend the Quadra 950 and Apple Workgroup Server 95.
However, I realize you aren't interested and are looking at the PPC
systems.
I'm aware that there's a clear divide
between Motorola and PowerPC CPU'd
variants, so I'm going to plump for a PowerPC based version so that I
can get access to newer hardware and use it as a kind of bridge system
between my current computers and the more historic versions.
I've contemplated doing a PPC rig, too. For me, I don't care much about
hyper-expandibilty. I like the more blingy hardware. So, for me, at the
top of the pyramid stand two systems: the G4 Cube and the 20th Anniversary
Mac. The Cube is now cheap on fleabay. It's prime time to grab those. If
one comes up on cheap Craigslist here in Denver, I'll probably snag it and
warehouse it for a while. I am just not motivated enough to pay shipping
or Ebay prices, yet.
IMHO, most of the tower systems were too "plasticy" and the desktop
Performa-styled boxes were uglier than homemade sin.
I have the original media that shipped with this,
so I can get 9.2.1 on
it relatively easily.
You'll want to Google MacOS PPC. Let's simply say "it's out there"
and
easy to get. Unless you just want the manuals an screen-printed discs,
which I understand, too.
Was a gigabit ethernet card ever released with
Mac OS 9 drivers?
Ohhhh, yeah. Lots of them. Check out lowendmac or the like. They have
lists of them.
I have a couple of 600GB PATA disks that I can
use with it, but has
there ever been a SATA implementation that worked with classic Mac OS?
Not sure about that, but I can tell you that there are ton of SCSI
controllers and you can use an expensive SATA-to-SCSI bridge like the one
sold by ACARD. I use several of those on various machines and they rock.
In terms of the software - any top-line utilities
or System Extensions I
should look to get my hands on?
Yes. Get the disk utilities that allow you to use non-Apple disks. The one
that comes to mind the fastest is Lacie Silverlining and LIDO.
What's the state of the art in classic Mac OS
browsing nowadays, Mr
Kaiser - is Clasilla still maintained?
He will know better than me, but your best bet IMO, is either iCab or
Clasilla, for sure.
-Swift 
15 Jul
15 Jul
10:26 p.m.
I went thru this exercise myself a couple of years back. Even kicked off a
thread on a Mac email list.
I don't/didn't have any experience or background with the Mac on the 68K, so
that didn't come into my decision making.
I ultimately decided that I didn't need the fastest/biggest/most memory power
house Mac that would run Classic. I just needed to run my Mac OS apps and games
that would never be ported to x86.
I purchased a G4 cube and have been happy with that decision. I can boot up
into Mac OS 9.x, and also boot into OS X 10.4 with Classic support.
This was what worked well for me. I will be interested to see what you
ultimately end up choosing.
Jerry
On 07/15/16 02:03 PM, Austin Pass wrote:
I'm toying with putting the "ultimate"
classic Mac together, although I'm
having a little difficulty pinning down the definition of what the ultimate
representation of the type is, so was looking for a little input from
Classic CMP'ers.
I'm aware that there's a clear divide between Motorola and PowerPC CPU'd
variants, so I'm going to plump for a PowerPC based version so that I can
get access to newer hardware and use it as a kind of bridge system between
my current computers and the more historic versions.
In terms of hardware I have a lovely mirror-door G4 PowerMac I'm intending
to use. I have the original media that shipped with this, so I can get
9.2.1 on it relatively easily. Are there any add-in cards (PCI) I should
be considering? It has a built in Airport Card (possibly Airport Extreme?)
although my home Wi-Fi is 802.11n or better with WPA2 so I'll just use
Ethernet to connect it to my LAN. Was a gigabit ethernet card ever
released with Mac OS 9 drivers? I have a couple of 600GB PATA disks that I
can use with it, but has there ever been a SATA implementation that worked
with classic Mac OS?
Also, I have an Asant? ether bridge tucked away somewhere that I hope to be
able to use to connect some of my older Mac OS boxen without Ethernet.
In terms of the software - any top-line utilities or System Extensions I
should look to get my hands on? What's the state of the art in classic Mac
OS browsing nowadays, Mr Kaiser - is Clasilla still maintained?
-Austin.
16 Jul
16 Jul
6:05 a.m.
If I had the time and money (mostly money) to do this, I
would settle for nothing less than a Quadra 840AV. Be
prepared to spend $$$$, though; the 840 is quickly approaching
'investment grade'.
If I wanted the "all in one" experience, I would get the
SE/30. Once again, these are kinda pricey.....
-----Original Message-----
From: other at oryx.us
Sent: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 16:26:06 -0500
To: general at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.
I went thru this exercise myself a couple of years back. Even kicked off
a
thread on a Mac email list.
I don't/didn't have any experience or background with the Mac on the 68K,
so
that didn't come into my decision making.
I ultimately decided that I didn't need the fastest/biggest/most memory
power
house Mac that would run Classic. I just needed to run my Mac OS apps
and games
that would never be ported to x86.
I purchased a G4 cube and have been happy with that decision. I can boot
up
into Mac OS 9.x, and also boot into OS X 10.4 with Classic support.
This was what worked well for me. I will be interested to see what you
ultimately end up choosing.
Jerry
On 07/15/16 02:03 PM, Austin Pass wrote:
> I'm toying with putting the "ultimate" classic Mac together, although
> I'm
> having a little difficulty pinning down the definition of what the
> ultimate
> representation of the type is, so was looking for a little input from
> Classic CMP'ers.
>
> I'm aware that there's a clear divide between Motorola and PowerPC CPU'd
> variants, so I'm going to plump for a PowerPC based version so that I
> can
> get access to newer hardware and use it as a kind of bridge system
> between
> my current computers and the more historic versions.
>
> In terms of hardware I have a lovely mirror-door G4 PowerMac I'm
> intending
> to use. I have the original media that shipped with this, so I can get
> 9.2.1 on it relatively easily. Are there any add-in cards (PCI) I
> should
> be considering? It has a built in Airport Card (possibly Airport
> Extreme?)
> although my home Wi-Fi is 802.11n or better with WPA2 so I'll just use
> Ethernet to connect it to my LAN. Was a gigabit ethernet card ever
> released with Mac OS 9 drivers? I have a couple of 600GB PATA disks
> that I
> can use with it, but has there ever been a SATA implementation that
> worked
> with classic Mac OS?
>
> Also, I have an Asant? ether bridge tucked away somewhere that I hope to
> be
> able to use to connect some of my older Mac OS boxen without Ethernet.
>
> In terms of the software - any top-line utilities or System Extensions I
> should look to get my hands on? What's the state of the art in classic
> Mac
> OS browsing nowadays, Mr Kaiser - is Clasilla still maintained?
>
> -Austin.
>
____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium
6:33 a.m.
A Quadra 950 is also a decent machine if you want to fill it up with cards.
Most 840av's these days have bad motherboards from leaking capacitors and
the plastics break if you sneeze too hard close to them.
-----Original Message-----
From: N0body H0me
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 1:05 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.
If I had the time and money (mostly money) to do this, I
would settle for nothing less than a Quadra 840AV. Be
prepared to spend $$$$, though; the 840 is quickly approaching
'investment grade'.
If I wanted the "all in one" experience, I would get the
SE/30. Once again, these are kinda pricey.....
-----Original Message-----
From: other at oryx.us
Sent: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 16:26:06 -0500
To: general at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.
I went thru this exercise myself a couple of years back. Even kicked off
a
thread on a Mac email list.
I don't/didn't have any experience or background with the Mac on the 68K,
so
that didn't come into my decision making.
I ultimately decided that I didn't need the fastest/biggest/most memory
power
house Mac that would run Classic. I just needed to run my Mac OS apps
and games
that would never be ported to x86.
I purchased a G4 cube and have been happy with that decision. I can boot
up
into Mac OS 9.x, and also boot into OS X 10.4 with Classic support.
This was what worked well for me. I will be interested to see what you
ultimately end up choosing.
Jerry
On 07/15/16 02:03 PM, Austin Pass wrote:
> I'm toying with putting the "ultimate" classic Mac together, although
> I'm
> having a little difficulty pinning down the definition of what the
> ultimate
> representation of the type is, so was looking for a little input from
> Classic CMP'ers.
>
> I'm aware that there's a clear divide between Motorola and PowerPC CPU'd
> variants, so I'm going to plump for a PowerPC based version so that I
> can
> get access to newer hardware and use it as a kind of bridge system
> between
> my current computers and the more historic versions.
>
> In terms of hardware I have a lovely mirror-door G4 PowerMac I'm
> intending
> to use. I have the original media that shipped with this, so I can get
> 9.2.1 on it relatively easily. Are there any add-in cards (PCI) I
> should
> be considering? It has a built in Airport Card (possibly Airport
> Extreme?)
> although my home Wi-Fi is 802.11n or better with WPA2 so I'll just use
> Ethernet to connect it to my LAN. Was a gigabit ethernet card ever
> released with Mac OS 9 drivers? I have a couple of 600GB PATA disks
> that I
> can use with it, but has there ever been a SATA implementation that
> worked
> with classic Mac OS?
>
> Also, I have an Asant? ether bridge tucked away somewhere that I hope to
> be
> able to use to connect some of my older Mac OS boxen without Ethernet.
>
> In terms of the software - any top-line utilities or System Extensions I
> should look to get my hands on? What's the state of the art in classic
> Mac
> OS browsing nowadays, Mr Kaiser - is Clasilla still maintained?
>
> -Austin.
>
____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your
desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
17 Jul
17 Jul
9:40 a.m.
On 16 Jul 2016, at 3:33 pm, TeoZ <teoz at
neo.rr.com> wrote:
Most 840av's these days have bad motherboards from leaking capacitors and the
plastics break if you sneeze too hard close to them.
Yes, I just gave away my 840av. It was working (and looking) fine a couple of years ago,
but when I checked a few months ago the capacitors had died and the plastic bits were just
falling apart. If it was just the caps I would have fixed it. Was my favourite 68K Mac, I
did video editing on one back in the day. Can?t remember what video card(s) and software I
used on it, but I know that the big (maybe 2GB?) SCSI drives and the max amount of RAM
cost me a lot of $ back then.. Great machine but the case is horrible to work with.
18 Jul
18 Jul
8:38 a.m.
On 16 Jul
2016, at 3:33 pm, TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
Most 840av's these days have bad motherboards from leaking capacitors
and the plastics break if you sneeze too hard close to them.
Yes, I just gave away my 840av. It was working (and looking) fine a
couple of years ago, but when I checked a few months ago the capacitors
had died and the plastic bits were just falling apart. If it was just the
caps I would have fixed it. Was my favourite 68K Mac, I did video editing
on one back in the day. Can?t remember what video card(s) and software I
used on it, but I know that the big (maybe 2GB?) SCSI drives and the max
amount of RAM cost me a lot of $ back then.. Great machine but the case
is horrible to work with. 
3:39 p.m.
The 88k should
have
been in RISC-based Mac's. But of course, the 88k's absence was not really
Apple's fault, either. Just another example of 'what could have been'.
I worked on Apple's 88K Macs. You wouldn't have liked them.
4:03 p.m.
On 7/18/16 7:39 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
What were some of their issues?
The two big ones were a new, incompatible expansion bus interface (BLT)
and that it was going to run Pink.
"Shiner" started out as an 88110 machine, and some of the architectural
quirks are remnants of that.
Going on in parallel with Hurricane (88110 desktop) was a 88100 si sized
machine where the 68k emulator and nanokernel were developed. That evolved
into the first generation PPC macs and (V0) software (OS 7 with enhancements)
V1 was the redo of MacOS, which never happened.
4:12 p.m.
What were some
of their issues?
The two big ones were a new, incompatible expansion bus interface (BLT)
and that it was going to run Pink.
"Shiner" started out as an 88110 machine, and some of the architectural
quirks are remnants of that. 
5:11 p.m.
On 18 July 2016 at 17:03, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
"Shiner" started out as an 88110 machine,
and some of the architectural
quirks are remnants of that.
This is not enough for me to Google. Could you clarify, please?
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
6:10 p.m.
On 7/18/16 9:11 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
On 18 July 2016 at 17:03, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
you won't find anything on the web about any of this
"Shiner" started out as an 88110
machine, and some of the architectural
quirks are remnants of that.
This is not enough for me to Google. Could you clarify, please?
6:12 p.m.
"Shiner" shipped as the ANS with AIX
http://www.erik.co.uk/ans/
though that isn't what the original "Shiner" was at all.
On 7/18/16 10:10 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 7/18/16 9:11 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
On 18 July 2016 at 17:03, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
you won't find anything on the web about any of this
"Shiner" started out as an 88110
machine, and some of the architectural
quirks are remnants of that.
This is not enough for me to Google. Could you clarify, please?
19 Jul
19 Jul
6:25 a.m.
"Shiner" shipped as the ANS with AIX
http://www.erik.co.uk/ans/
though that isn't what the original "Shiner" was at all.
Chuck Goulsbee talked about a prototype 601 in a Q950 case, but that
sounds like the ancestor to the WGS 9150, not the ANS. Was the
original "Shiner" that system, or was it something else?
I keep hoping another ANS 300 turns up (the only extant one I know is
Chuck's). However, my 500 and 700 systems are still doing just fine.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- MOVIE IDEA: E.T.E.S.: The Extra Terrestrial E-Mail Signature ---------------
18 Jul
18 Jul
6:21 p.m.
On 18 Jul 2016, at 18:10, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
you won't find anything on the web about any of this
...which is why this ClassicCMP'er just drew his chair closer and cracked out the
popcorn!
Finding this fascinating, Al. Any time you take to relay your Apple experiences here is
very much appreciated, let me assure you.
-Austin.
6:49 p.m.
Give me a while to collect what I have together. I haven't looked at what paper
documents i still have since the
early 90s. I need to do this since someone I worked with then saved some prototype 88k CPU
boards that I need to give to
CHM. I only know of one 88100 si that survived into this century, and I don't know if
the guy still has it.
Very little from the server group that did the ANS survived after the division imploded.
On 7/18/16 10:21 AM, Austin Pass wrote:
Finding this fascinating, Al. Any time you take to
relay your Apple experiences here is very much appreciated, let me assure you.
7:21 p.m.
On 7/18/16 10:49 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
Give me a while to collect what I have together.
My memory was fuzzy, BLT was a part of "Tesseract", PPC follow-on to
"Hurricane" 88110.
Tesseract became "TNT" ("The New Tesseract" aka the 9500) when Steve
Manzer ordered the
group to use PCI instead of BLT because PCI already had an installed base of 3rd party
cards.
I ul'ed a picture of the Tesseract protype to bitsavers under
apple/powerpc/Prototypes.
Mirrors should have it in about an hour.
I should have the Hurricane proto board somewhere along with Nubus 88100 and IBM RSC
CPU development boards (like
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102674143)
10:22 p.m.
On 7/18/2016 11:10 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 7/18/16 9:11 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
Can you enlighten the masses, or have you sold your soul to Lucifer
for this knowlage?
On 18 July 2016 at 17:03, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
you won't find anything on the web about any of this
"Shiner" started out as an 88110
machine, and some of the architectural
quirks are remnants of that.
This is not enough for me to Google. Could you clarify, please?
19 Jul
19 Jul
12:23 a.m.
On 7/18/2016 11:10 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
you won't find anything on the web about any of
this
On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 3:22 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
Can you enlighten the masses, or have you sold your
soul to Lucifer
for this knowlage?
Even worse! It was sold to Apple!
:-)
18 Jul
18 Jul
8:44 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: aek at bitsavers.org
Sent: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 07:41:10 -0700
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.
On 7/18/16 12:38 AM, N0body H0me wrote:
I'm astounded. I didn't think any ever made it to prototype or hard-model
stage! I've seen bare boards for these (up to this point) mythical
beasts, but never a living, breathing machine. Must have been a piece
of work. Do any functional machines still exist? How did you encounter
them?
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The 88k should have
been in RISC-based Mac's. But of course, the 88k's absence was not
really
Apple's fault, either. Just another example of 'what could have been'.
I worked on Apple's 88K Macs. You wouldn't have liked them.
8:59 p.m.
On 7/18/16 12:44 PM, N0body H0me wrote:
I'm astounded. I didn't think any ever made
it to prototype or hard-model
stage! I've seen bare boards for these (up to this point) mythical
beasts, but never a living, breathing machine. Must have been a piece
of work. Do any functional machines still exist? How did you encounter
them?
The 88100 si worked. Hurricane never got a functional 88110 before the IBM/Apple
deal. Tessaract never booted MacOS.
Which bare board did you see?
I was in the RISC products group doing driver and cpu board bringup starting with
the 88100 nubus boards to IBM RSC (never had a functional 88110) then 601 over to
high end desktop product development with TNT.
19 Jul
19 Jul
4:36 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: aek at bitsavers.org
Sent: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 12:59:44 -0700
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.
On 7/18/16 12:44 PM, N0body H0me wrote:
Long ago, on "The auction site that must not be named", some guy
was selling an apple-branded case, with a bare motherboard inside
(or, perhaps only sparsely populated). The seller stated it was
the prototype motherboard for an 88k Mac that was never built. It
sold for a stupid amount of money....
I'm astounded. I didn't think any ever
made it to prototype or
hard-model
stage! I've seen bare boards for these (up to this point) mythical
beasts, but never a living, breathing machine. Must have been a piece
of work. Do any functional machines still exist? How did you encounter
them?
The 88100 si worked. Hurricane never got a functional 88110 before the
IBM/Apple
deal. Tessaract never booted MacOS.
Which bare board did you see? I was in the RISC products group doing driver and cpu
board bringup
starting with
the 88100 nubus boards to IBM RSC (never had a functional 88110) then 601
over to high end desktop product development with TNT.
Wow, so as Walter Cronkite would have said: "...and you were there."
The question I'm dying to ask is: Given the choice between the PPC
and the 88k (and ignoring Motorola's propensity to shoot itself in
the foot), which archetecture would you tend to favor (and why)?
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4:46 p.m.
On 7/18/16 8:36 PM, N0body H0me wrote:
If it was a Mac si case, that would have been "RLC" (RISC Low Cost)
They most definitely did work, and was what demonstrated that you could
run MacOS with an emulated 68K on a RISC processor.
I also remembered that at the same time as the 88100, a consultant was
working on bringing up the code on an AMD 29000 but that was abandoned
when RLC ran.
The only thing I can think of offhand that I liked better on PPC were the
bitfield insert/extract instructions, which are very useful in the core of
the 68K emulator. It's unlikely that there would have been as many implementations
of the 88k as PPC if only Moto would have been involved, and they wouldn't have
gotten IBM's copper fab process, which was critical in getting faster parts.
Which bare
board did you see?
Long ago, on "The auction site that must not be named", some guy
was selling an apple-branded case, with a bare motherboard inside
(or, perhaps only sparsely populated). The seller stated it was
the prototype motherboard for an 88k Mac that was never built. It
sold for a stupid amount of money....
16 Jul
16 Jul
8:05 a.m.
On 16 Jul 2016, at 06:05, N0body H0me <n0body.h0me
at inbox.com> wrote:
If I had the time and money (mostly money) to do this, I
would settle for nothing less than a Quadra 840AV. Be
prepared to spend $$$$, though; the 840 is quickly approaching
'investment grade'.
If I wanted the "all in one" experience, I would get the
SE/30. Once again, these are kinda pricey.....
I have an SE/30.
What is it about the Quadra 840 that makes it such a hot shot? I've seen a few over
the last few years, but all fetch ?150+
-Austin.
-----Original Message-----
From: other at oryx.us
Sent: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 16:26:06 -0500
To: general at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.
I went thru this exercise myself a couple of years back. Even kicked off
a
thread on a Mac email list.
I don't/didn't have any experience or background with the Mac on the 68K,
so
that didn't come into my decision making.
I ultimately decided that I didn't need the fastest/biggest/most memory
power
house Mac that would run Classic. I just needed to run my Mac OS apps
and games
that would never be ported to x86.
I purchased a G4 cube and have been happy with that decision. I can boot
up
into Mac OS 9.x, and also boot into OS X 10.4 with Classic support.
This was what worked well for me. I will be interested to see what you
ultimately end up choosing.
Jerry
> On 07/15/16 02:03 PM, Austin Pass wrote:
> I'm toying with putting the "ultimate" classic Mac together, although
> I'm
> having a little difficulty pinning down the definition of what the
> ultimate
> representation of the type is, so was looking for a little input from
> Classic CMP'ers.
>
> I'm aware that there's a clear divide between Motorola and PowerPC CPU'd
> variants, so I'm going to plump for a PowerPC based version so that I
> can
> get access to newer hardware and use it as a kind of bridge system
> between
> my current computers and the more historic versions.
>
> In terms of hardware I have a lovely mirror-door G4 PowerMac I'm
> intending
> to use. I have the original media that shipped with this, so I can get
> 9.2.1 on it relatively easily. Are there any add-in cards (PCI) I
> should
> be considering? It has a built in Airport Card (possibly Airport
> Extreme?)
> although my home Wi-Fi is 802.11n or better with WPA2 so I'll just use
> Ethernet to connect it to my LAN. Was a gigabit ethernet card ever
> released with Mac OS 9 drivers? I have a couple of 600GB PATA disks
> that I
> can use with it, but has there ever been a SATA implementation that
> worked
> with classic Mac OS?
>
> Also, I have an Asant? ether bridge tucked away somewhere that I hope to
> be
> able to use to connect some of my older Mac OS boxen without Ethernet.
>
> In terms of the software - any top-line utilities or System Extensions I
> should look to get my hands on? What's the state of the art in classic
> Mac
> OS browsing nowadays, Mr Kaiser - is Clasilla still maintained?
>
> -Austin.
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18 Jul
18 Jul
5:07 p.m.
On 16 July 2016 at 09:05, Austin Pass <austinpass at gmail.com> wrote:
What is it about the Quadra 840 that makes it such a
hot shot? I've seen a few over the last few years, but all fetch ?150+
AIUI it was the fastest ever 68K Mac (in stock form; others can be
overclocked, as has been noted in this thread).
However, the onboard AV circuitry mean it's incompatible with A/UX, I
believe. Could be wrong.
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
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5:05 p.m.
On 16 July 2016 at 07:05, N0body H0me <n0body.h0me at inbox.com> wrote:
If I wanted the "all in one" experience, I
would get the
SE/30. Once again, these are kinda pricey.....
Indeed.
I've seen an argument that the "ultimate" classic Mac experience --
before the colour machines and so on -- would be a maxed-out SE/30
(128MB RAM!) with internal Ethernet and greyscale monitor controllers
(both is possible but tricky), with a 21" CRT attached, running A/UX.
:-)
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
16 Jul
16 Jul
7:39 a.m.
I'm toying with putting the "ultimate"
classic Mac together, although I'm
having a little difficulty pinning down the definition of what the ultimate
representation of the type is, so was looking for a little input from
Classic CMP'ers.
My "heavy duty" OS 9 rig is an dual 1.25GHz MDD that I upgraded to a dual
Sonnet 1.8GHz, with 1.5GB RAM and OS 9.2.2. Everything flies on it. I haven't
had any obvious compatibility problems.
Al makes a good point though: have a spare power supply. My MDD blew
through two.
You didn't ask, but my preferred heavy duty 68K is the Q800. You can
overclock them easily with chipclips and they are the beefiest 68K Mac
that will still run A/UX. A/UX at 40MHz is a delight.
In terms of hardware I have a lovely mirror-door G4
PowerMac I'm intending
to use. I have the original media that shipped with this, so I can get
9.2.1 on it relatively easily. Are there any add-in cards (PCI) I should
be considering? It has a built in Airport Card (possibly Airport Extreme?)
although my home Wi-Fi is 802.11n or better with WPA2 so I'll just use
Ethernet to connect it to my LAN. Was a gigabit ethernet card ever
released with Mac OS 9 drivers? I have a couple of 600GB PATA disks that I
can use with it, but has there ever been a SATA implementation that worked
with classic Mac OS?
I've never seen a GigE card for OS 9. There is of course 100Mbit support.
I would love to be proven wrong.
The Sonnet SATA cards work well with OS 9 and are completely bootable. I
used such a card in a 7300.
In terms of the software - any top-line utilities or
System Extensions I
should look to get my hands on? What's the state of the art in classic Mac
OS browsing nowadays, Mr Kaiser - is Clasilla still maintained?
Sort of, as I have time. I'd like to do more with it but TenFourFox consumes
much of my free hacking cycles currently. That should let up relatively soon
since I've made the executive decision to fork TenFourFox at Firefox 45ESR
(due to the looming spectre of Rust becoming a build-requirement, and
known and expected issues with Electrolysis multi-process with the 10.4 SDK).
Still, the biggest need for Classilla currently is moar crypto and that's
rather hard to get right.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Know what I hate most? Rhetorical questions. -- Henry N. Camp -------------
7:41 a.m.
I've never seen a GigE card for OS 9. There is of
course 100Mbit support.
I would love to be proven wrong.
I have been proven wrong.
http://www.everymac.com/mac-answers/mac-os-9-classic-support-faq/gigabit-et…
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- You're only as good as the last problem someone had. -- Ballmer on security
8:19 a.m.
On 16 Jul 2016, at 07:39, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
I think that has me decided then - I'll go with the MDD.
I'll hit eBay too for some PSU replacements.
I'd love one of the Sonnet upgrades but sadly Mac upgrades seem very thin on the
ground this side of the pond, unless I'm looking in the wrong places.
What graphics card do you use, out of interest?
-Austin.
I'm toying
with putting the "ultimate" classic Mac together, although I'm
having a little difficulty pinning down the definition of what the ultimate
representation of the type is, so was looking for a little input from
Classic CMP'ers.
My "heavy duty" OS 9 rig is an dual 1.25GHz MDD that I upgraded to a dual
Sonnet 1.8GHz, with 1.5GB RAM and OS 9.2.2. Everything flies on it. I haven't
had any obvious compatibility problems.
Al makes a good point though: have a spare power supply. My MDD blew
through two.
You didn't ask, but my preferred heavy duty 68K is the Q800. You can
overclock them easily with chipclips and they are the beefiest 68K Mac
that will still run A/UX. A/UX at 40MHz is a delight.
In terms of hardware I have a lovely mirror-door
G4 PowerMac I'm intending
to use. I have the original media that shipped with this, so I can get
9.2.1 on it relatively easily. Are there any add-in cards (PCI) I should
be considering? It has a built in Airport Card (possibly Airport Extreme?)
although my home Wi-Fi is 802.11n or better with WPA2 so I'll just use
Ethernet to connect it to my LAN. Was a gigabit ethernet card ever
released with Mac OS 9 drivers? I have a couple of 600GB PATA disks that I
can use with it, but has there ever been a SATA implementation that worked
with classic Mac OS?
I've never seen a GigE card for OS 9. There is of course 100Mbit support.
I would love to be proven wrong.
The Sonnet SATA cards work well with OS 9 and are completely bootable. I
used such a card in a 7300.
In terms of the software - any top-line utilities
or System Extensions I
should look to get my hands on? What's the state of the art in classic Mac
OS browsing nowadays, Mr Kaiser - is Clasilla still maintained?
Sort of, as I have time. I'd like to do more with it but TenFourFox consumes
much of my free hacking cycles currently. That should let up relatively soon
since I've made the executive decision to fork TenFourFox at Firefox 45ESR
(due to the looming spectre of Rust becoming a build-requirement, and
known and expected issues with Electrolysis multi-process with the 10.4 SDK).
Still, the biggest need for Classilla currently is moar crypto and that's
rather hard to get right.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Know what I hate most? Rhetorical questions. -- Henry N. Camp -------------
2:52 p.m.
I'll hit eBay too for some PSU replacements.
There are a few modified aftermarket supplies for the MDD which are also
infinitely more reliable. I have an Antec one around here somewhere. The
lower-watt AcBel units seem more reliable.
What graphics card do you use, out of interest?
I use an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro, but the GeForce 4Ti is probably the ultimate
OS 9 card (it benches a bit quicker). That said, the 9000 is a very good
card. I have it connected to a 1080p display which the ATI handles with
absolutely no problem.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- boom boom boom Nothing outlasts the Energizer. It keeps going and going ...
3102
days inactive
3106
days old
41 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
alexandre.tabajara＠gmail.com -
austinpass＠gmail.com -
bear＠typewritten.org -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cmhanson＠eschatologist.net -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mtapley＠swri.edu -
n0body.h0me＠inbox.com -
other＠oryx.us -
pye＠mactec.com.au -
spacewar＠gmail.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
swiftgriggs＠gmail.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com