3 Jun
2016
3 Jun
'16
1:32 a.m.
I'm a bit surprised at the recommendation of Dell but maybe they weren't playing
all their proprietary games yet. I've seen where they rewired a nonstandard power
connector so you'd fry it replacing it with a standard power supply or fry your other
system using one of their power supplies but can't remember if that was at or atx.
Seen where they did something stupid and notched their ram so it had to be registered
memory. So long ago i don't remember the details though. Not to mention weird custom
firmware on parts they didn't build which caused driver and functionality nightmares
for 3 sound blaster cards i bought (at a bargain) but had to return all 3 for various odd
reasons.?
Either way. They quickly became a vendor i lost trust in but maybe lots of vendors also
did that and i just ended up working on their problems the most.?
Mca and vlb cards are harder to come by and fetch a higher price range vs isa/Eisa or
pci.?
Definitely stay away from Cyrix processors. Most computer stores i knew in the 486 era
wouldn't even sell them or take them as trade ins. Comparability issues and
overheating seemed to be common features.?
Interesting comments on parallel drives. They're nice for compatability on multiple
systems but much slower than their scsi sisters. I did both but didn't realize the
huge transfer speed difference until i had traded away my scsi version for a box o'
gear then later traded some of that to get a parallel zip drive again. But on the bright
side most of my systems could use it or share it over null modem.?
3 Jun
3 Jun
11:11 a.m.
New subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ?
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Sam O'nella wrote:
I'm a bit surprised at the recommendation of Dell
but maybe they weren't
playing all their proprietary games yet.
I was a little surprised, too. However, different strokes for different
folks, I suppose. My experience with Dell machines mostly mirrors yours.
However, I did have a core2 class Optiplex desktop that was very solid and
standard.
I've seen where they rewired a nonstandard power
connector so you'd fry
it replacing it with a standard power supply or fry your other system
using one of their power supplies but can't remember if that was at or
atx.
Wow, that's nasty. You'd hope they didn't do that on purpose but if so...
ugh.
Seen where they did something stupid and notched their
ram so it had to
be registered memory.
I ran into this with one of their workstations. I can't remember the
model, either, though.
Either way. They quickly became a vendor i lost trust
in but maybe lots
of vendors also did that and i just ended up working on their problems
the most.
For me there were two things that made me have a fairly low opinion of
Dell:
1. When they offshored their support folks, brought some back, then
offshored again. The couple times I had to call support due to firmware
issues on the old 2650, I could only talk to folks who could speak
broken English, and knew almost nothing about the subject matter at
hand.
2. When I worked at Oracle, we deployed thousands of Dells (about 30k over
5 years IIRC). The out-of-box failures were numerous and painful
(because I had to RMA, re-pack, and ship the damn things back).
Mca and vlb cards are harder to come by and fetch a
higher price range
vs isa/Eisa or pci.
Fortunately, I have a decent collection of interface cards, though I might
still settle on something new if there is a compelling reason.
Definitely stay away from Cyrix processors. Most
computer stores i knew
in the 486 era wouldn't even sell them or take them as trade ins.
Comparability issues and overheating seemed to be common features.
I know that was the case with the so-called 5x86 (586). It had straight-up
bugs in the silicon, IIRC. However, the 486 models I had were very solid
and quite fast for the money. These days, however, I'd probably go the
Intel route.
Interesting comments on parallel drives. They're
nice for compatibility
on multiple systems but much slower than their scsi sisters.
Sooooo much slower. When I'm forced to use an LPT port for transferring
data on those old machines, I'd use Laplink. I was always disappointed
with parallel port devices, because they never seemed able to reach the
same transfer speeds as Laplink and other direct-cable software.
-Swift
11:21 a.m.
New subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ?
On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Swift Griggs <swiftgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Sam O'nella wrote:
All of the "new" Dell stuff should not cloud the fact that
"old" Dell was
superior to anyone else in 1990/93 cost vs. performance. I was a hardware
evaluator back then I got regular shipments of machines put them all to the
test next to each other, benchmarking, etc. Fun job.
The disappointment many of us here felt about how Dell changed into a
faceless corporate giant with off-shore support, proprietary "getting
started" or you're bricked CDs and all that. I feel for you. Just
remembering the good old days.
I think in fact that Dell's success back then was specifically because they
were the best clone maker. Compaq and IBM were waaaay more propietary back
then, Even Gateway and PB were proprietary compared to Dell.
There are also comments about EISA and that bus. If you like it the
quality is there, I just get nervous if am recommending ONE 3686/486 system
as the OP asked to keep. I'd want something generic of high quality - to
me, then, that was DELL
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
I'm a bit surprised at the recommendation of
Dell but maybe they weren't
playing all their proprietary games yet.
I was a little surprised, too. However, different strokes for different
folks, I suppose. My experience with Dell machines mostly mirrors yours.
However, I did have a core2 class Optiplex desktop that was very solid and
standard.
I've seen where they rewired a nonstandard
power connector so you'd fry
it replacing it with a standard power supply or fry your other system
using one of their power supplies but can't remember if that was at or
atx.
Wow, that's nasty. You'd hope they didn't do that on purpose but if so...
ugh.
Seen where they did something stupid and notched
their ram so it had to
be registered memory.
I ran into this with one of their workstations. I can't remember the
model, either, though.
Either way. They quickly became a vendor i lost
trust in but maybe lots
of vendors also did that and i just ended up working on their problems
the most.
For me there were two things that made me have a fairly low opinion of
Dell:
1. When they offshored their support folks, brought some back, then
offshored again. The couple times I had to call support due to firmware
issues on the old 2650, I could only talk to folks who could speak
broken English, and knew almost nothing about the subject matter at
hand.
2. When I worked at Oracle, we deployed thousands of Dells (about 30k over
5 years IIRC). The out-of-box failures were numerous and painful
(because I had to RMA, re-pack, and ship the damn things back).
Mca and vlb cards are harder to come by and fetch
a higher price range
vs isa/Eisa or pci.
Fortunately, I have a decent collection of interface cards, though I might
still settle on something new if there is a compelling reason.
Definitely stay away from Cyrix processors. Most
computer stores i knew
in the 486 era wouldn't even sell them or take them as trade ins.
Comparability issues and overheating seemed to be common features.
I know that was the case with the so-called 5x86 (586). It had straight-up
bugs in the silicon, IIRC. However, the 486 models I had were very solid
and quite fast for the money. These days, however, I'd probably go the
Intel route.
Interesting comments on parallel drives.
They're nice for compatibility
on multiple systems but much slower than their scsi sisters.
Sooooo much slower. When I'm forced to use an LPT port for transferring
data on those old machines, I'd use Laplink. I was always disappointed
with parallel port devices, because they never seemed able to reach the
same transfer speeds as Laplink and other direct-cable software.
-Swift
11:50 a.m.
New subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ?
On 06/03/2016 08:11 AM, Swift Griggs wrote:
Sooooo much slower. When I'm forced to use an LPT
port for
transferring data on those old machines, I'd use Laplink. I was
always disappointed with parallel port devices, because they never
seemed able to reach the same transfer speeds as Laplink and other
direct-cable software.
One reason is that parallel port devices were generally designed to work
along with other parallel peripherals on the same port, so they have to
watch their Ps and Qs. LL/Interlink use the port as dedicated, so no
such worry.
Also, it depends on the peripheral and the PC. "Nibble mode" transfers
are, in fact, pretty slow, but a PC with a bidirectional SPP port (such
as found on a PS/2) can improve things greatly, provided there's a
device capable of employing it. ECP and EPP capabilities and
peripherals even more so.
cf. IEEE 1284
--Chuck
12:28 p.m.
New subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ?
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:
One reason is that parallel port devices were
generally designed to work
along with other parallel peripherals on the same port, so they have to
watch their Ps and Qs. LL/Interlink use the port as dedicated, so no
such worry.
. . . and, it is using two computers.
It might take 10 minutes to transfer a file. If, instead, you copy
to a disk for 9 minutes on one computer, and then sneakernet that disk to
another computer, and read it for 9 minutes, which is faster?
But, what's the big hurry?
Remember when getting same day turn-around on batch processing jobs was an
improvement?
3:14 p.m.
New subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ?
On 06/03/2016 09:28 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
But, what's the big hurry?
Remember when getting same day turn-around on batch processing jobs was
an improvement?
Then there's "hybrid sneakernet"--using a more up-to-date storage medium
such as CF or SD card and carrying it across the room. Gives new
meaning to the paradigm of "a station wagon loaded with 9-track tapes".
--Chuck
3:19 p.m.
New subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M
?
On 06/03/2016 09:28 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would fit into a (20) cigarette box filled
with microSD cards?
m
But, what's the big hurry?
Remember when getting same day turn-around on batch processing jobs was
an improvement?
Then there's "hybrid sneakernet"--using a more up-to-date storage medium
such as CF or SD card and carrying it across the room. Gives new
meaning to the paradigm of "a station wagon loaded with 9-track tapes".
--Chuck
3:33 p.m.
New subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ?
On 06/03/2016 12:19 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would
fit into a (20)
cigarette box filled with microSD cards?
Silly. A station wagon, empty or full, is bigger than a cigarette box,
so the answer must be close to zero...
--Chuck
3:41 p.m.
New subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ?
On 06/03/2016 12:19 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
> How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would fit into a (20)
> cigarette box filled with microSD cards?
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis
wrote:
Silly. A station wagon, empty or full, is bigger than
a cigarette box,
so the answer must be close to zero...
Even if you leave out the station wagon itself,
far less than one 9-track tapes will fit into a cigarette box.
If you unspooled the tape, you might be able to fit hundreds of feet of
the tape into the box.
4:21 p.m.
New subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep)
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Mike Stein wrote:
How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would
fit into a (20)
cigarette box filled with microSD cards?
Station wagon full of tapes = 51 GB
Pack of stogies full of SD = 2816 GB
It's not fair using 9-track tapes, but let's go with it.
Let's consider the Ford Focus SE station wagon which has 95.7 cubic feet
of passenger space and 35.2 cubic feet in the back with all the seats up.
So, that's 130.9 ft^2 total. We'll keep the seats up so we can use them
as pillars to strap down mounds of tapes. We don't want them sliding
around, being damaged, or flying up and smacking the rear of our head.
That volume probably includes the driver, but let's assume we can make up
for the driver's volume by shifting some tapes to the top of the vehicle
in a plastic tub and strapping them down. Also, screw having a passenger.
This is a Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas style cross-country escape from
the weasels kinda drive. Solo, baby.
Now, let's consider a 9-track tape, at 3600 feet (longest one I could
find), with a density of 6250 CPI. That should give us 220MB according to
multiple sources, but hey, spot check me. Now that reel should be a 10.5"
wide by 5/8" thick. If my math is right, that's 6.56 cubic inches. If I
take the space in the wagon and try to get my units aligned, that means
1570.8 in^3. Thus, after division = 239 tapes (even!). So, @220MB that's
51.34GB.
Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you mean the dimensions of
a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened
smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s. So, we'll go with the standard size.
That's @ 6.51 cubic inches, methinks (2 1/8th wide x 3.5" tall x 7/8ths
thick). A standard SD card is 32mm x 24mm x 1mm. Because of the dimensions
of the cigarette box doesn't quite factor out to hold the SD cards
perfectly square, you're not going to be able to pack it completely full.
If my math is right, you could fit two columns in there with about a 1/4th
inch of slack. You can, unfortunately, only get two rows stacked in there
because you end up with about 16.6mm worth of slack at the top (about
5/8ths of an inch). Now, with the cigarette pack being 7/8ths thick (about
22mm), we can fit 22 SD cards in one stack and we can shoehorn four stacks
in our pack. Yeah, the extra plastic is probably bigger than 1mm and it's
going to bulge a bit, but that's cool. That means we can get 88 SD cards
in there. Now, we smoke Marlboros, like freakin' John Wayne. Thus, we
can't really afford the fancy schmancy 128G cards, plus we aren't sure if
our destination drive can read that huge size card, so let's stick with
cheap-az 32G cards. That's 2816 GB.
So what did I screw up? :-)
-Swift
4:29 p.m.
New subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep)
On 2016-06-03 5:21 PM, Swift Griggs wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Mike Stein wrote:
Lets not forget that there was no improvement in density of 1/2 inch
reel since the early 1970s, if they applied modern recording techniques
the capacity of 1/2" reel would be greatly improved, the raw capacity
of LTO cartridges is up to about 8TB per cartridge (they quote 16TB
compressed but usually that is based on an unrealistic 2:1 compression).
2400 ft reels where more standard the extended length tapes used thinner
media that was problematic in some drives.
Paul.
How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes
would fit into a (20)
cigarette box filled with microSD cards?
Station wagon full of tapes = 51 GB
Pack of stogies full of SD = 2816 GB
It's not fair using 9-track tapes, but let's go with it.
Let's consider the Ford Focus SE station wagon which has 95.7 cubic feet
of passenger space and 35.2 cubic feet in the back with all the seats up.
So, that's 130.9 ft^2 total. We'll keep the seats up so we can use them
as pillars to strap down mounds of tapes. We don't want them sliding
around, being damaged, or flying up and smacking the rear of our head.
That volume probably includes the driver, but let's assume we can make up
for the driver's volume by shifting some tapes to the top of the vehicle
in a plastic tub and strapping them down. Also, screw having a passenger.
This is a Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas style cross-country escape from
the weasels kinda drive. Solo, baby.
Now, let's consider a 9-track tape, at 3600 feet (longest one I could
find), with a density of 6250 CPI. That should give us 220MB according to
multiple sources, but hey, spot check me. Now that reel should be a 10.5"
wide by 5/8" thick. If my math is right, that's 6.56 cubic inches. If I
take the space in the wagon and try to get my units aligned, that means
1570.8 in^3. Thus, after division = 239 tapes (even!). So, @220MB that's
51.34GB.
Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you mean the dimensions of
a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened
smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s. So, we'll go with the standard size.
That's @ 6.51 cubic inches, methinks (2 1/8th wide x 3.5" tall x 7/8ths
thick). A standard SD card is 32mm x 24mm x 1mm. Because of the dimensions
of the cigarette box doesn't quite factor out to hold the SD cards
perfectly square, you're not going to be able to pack it completely full.
If my math is right, you could fit two columns in there with about a 1/4th
inch of slack. You can, unfortunately, only get two rows stacked in there
because you end up with about 16.6mm worth of slack at the top (about
5/8ths of an inch). Now, with the cigarette pack being 7/8ths thick (about
22mm), we can fit 22 SD cards in one stack and we can shoehorn four stacks
in our pack. Yeah, the extra plastic is probably bigger than 1mm and it's
going to bulge a bit, but that's cool. That means we can get 88 SD cards
in there. Now, we smoke Marlboros, like freakin' John Wayne. Thus, we
can't really afford the fancy schmancy 128G cards, plus we aren't sure if
our destination drive can read that huge size card, so let's stick with
cheap-az 32G cards. That's 2816 GB.
So what did I screw up? :-)
-Swift
5:15 p.m.
New subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep)
> How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes
would fit into a (20)
> cigarette box filled with microSD cards?
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote:
Station wagon full of tapes = 51 GB
Pack of stogies full of SD = 2816 GB
It's not fair using 9-track tapes, but let's go with it.
Let's consider the Ford Focus SE station wagon which has 95.7 cubic feet
of passenger space and 35.2 cubic feet in the back with all the seats up.
So, that's 130.9 ft^2 total.
That should be 130.9 ft^3 CUBIC feet, not square feet.
Now, let's consider a 9-track tape, at 3600 feet
(longest one I could
find), with a density of 6250 CPI. That should give us 220MB according to
multiple sources, but hey, spot check me. Now that reel should be a 10.5"
wide by 5/8" thick. If my math is right, that's 6.56 cubic inches. If I
How are you calculating that??
If it were "square", then it would be length * width * height
quite a bit more than you came up with.
If round, then PI * R * R
However, round objects waste some space. So, assume the square or
hexagon that circumscribes that circle (that they would fit in).
I would not leave the back seats in. If we pack the tapes in tightly,
then there is no need for any seat except driver. (Shall we assume that
we do not have convenient access to an autonomous car?)
I'd try to avoid that tub on the roof - gas mileage is already pretty
poor.
take the space in the wagon (130.9 ft^3) and try to
get my units
aligned, that means 1570.8 in^3.
130.9 cubic feet (if correct) is most certainly not 1570.8 cubic inches.
There are not 12 cubic inches in a cubic foot, there are 12 * 12 * 12
(1728)
Therefore, 130.9 cubic feet would be 226195.2 cubic inches.
Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you
mean the dimensions of
a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened
smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s.
I was unaware of that.
So, we'll go with the standard size.
That's @ 6.51 cubic inches, methinks (2 1/8th wide x 3.5" tall x 7/8ths
thick). A standard SD card is 32mm x 24mm x 1mm.
BUT, the original was MICRO-SD.
Those will pack into the cigarette pack
with far less wasted space.
can't really afford the fancy schmancy 128G cards,
plus we aren't sure if
our destination drive can read that huge size card, so let's stick with
cheap-az 32G cards.
agreed. Those are currently at a good price point.
BUT, we will go with MICRO-SD[HC], which has more than 4 times the data
capacity to physical volume, at least whe considering the more efficient
packing.
BUT, if we hold tightly to the original wording, Micro-SD (V Micro-SDHC)
tops out at 2G each.
That's 2816 GB.
So what did I screw up? :-)
cubic feet to cubic
inch conversion
calculation of volume of a tape
use of SD[HC] instead of MICRO-SD[HC]
Seagate makes a 2.5" 2TB (1.81TiB) SATA hard drive. They're a little
hard to find right now, but readily available (and cheaper) if you buy
their Backup-Plus-Slim, and throw away the external drive housing. Two
of those is about a cigarette pack in size. I sometimes carry two of
those in my shirt pocket.
But, further considerations:
Is this going to be a one shot transfer, or an ongoing operation?
Where are the endpoints?
If we assume about 50 hours to drive cross the USA, that provides a long
data transfer time, whereas a cigarette pack of Micro-SDs could be in your
pocket on a plane (if TSA will let you through) How many cigarette packs
can you fit into an accepted carry-on bag? (Nobody wants to pay excess for
baggage!)
6:29 p.m.
New subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep)
New info, then commentary:
Station Wagon full of tapes = 302.64 GB
Cigarette pack full of microSD = 880 GB
* Corrected volume calcs (least I think I did)
* Switched to 2400 ft tapes with 3M cases (thanks Chuck)
* Switched to MicroSD (but no SDHC) so.. 2G only
Okay, now the commentary and updated logic. :-)
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Fred Cisin wrote:
Hmm, yes, but I don't think we could pack them in there in any clever way
that might make use of the round edges. So, I kinda figured them square. I
used the dimensions from here, but you are still right. I only got in^2
not in^3, so we are talking 10.5 * 10.5 * .6250 = 68.9062 in^3.
Ah, yes, I had a niggly feeling about that, okay, totally correct, of
course. I'll adjust accordingly. It'll be a huge delta from my original
swag.
I'm hetero; so we stay away from 100's or 101's. If other folks aren't
we'll need to make adjustments since the pack is probably going to hold a
few more SD's.
Yes, true. I intentionally went to SD cards because the damn micro SDs
have a fiddly shape and will be a horror trying to pack in there. However,
since there is an audience, I'll adjust. (I didn't think anyone would
actually read/check).
Okay, but I'm going to count them as square, even if it's just the little
notch sticking out.
That should be 130.9 ft^3 CUBIC feet, not square feet.
Ah, quite right. Typo there. However, I got the specs from Ford and the
units were ft^3.
multiple
sources, but hey, spot check me. Now that reel should be a 10.5"
wide by 5/8" thick. If my math is right, that's 6.56 cubic inches. If I
How are you calculating that??
If it were "square", then it would be length * width * height
quite a bit more than you came up with.
If round, then PI * R * R However, round objects waste some space. So, assume
the square or
hexagon that circumscribes that circle (that they would fit in).
Yes, my thinking exactly, I just have bad execution on the arithmetic.
I would not leave the back seats in. If we pack the
tapes in tightly,
then there is no need for any seat except driver.
I wonder if that Focus Wagon has folding seats we could just fold down.
That's going to be a lot easier, but still packing is going to be a lot
easier with the seats out, granted.
(Shall we assume that we do not have convenient access
to an autonomous
car?) I'd try to avoid that tub on the roof - gas mileage is already
pretty poor.
Hmm, true. However, I haven't figured out what all this is going to cost
us, yet, anyway. :-)
take the space
in the wagon (130.9 ft^3) and try to get my units
aligned, that means 1570.8 in^3.
130.9 cubic feet (if correct) is most certainly not 1570.8 cubic inches.
There are not 12 cubic inches in a cubic foot, there are 12 * 12 * 12
(1728)
Therefore, 130.9 cubic feet would be 226195.2 cubic inches. Now for the
cigarette box. I'm going to assume you mean the dimensions of
a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened
smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s.
I was unaware of that. So, we'll
go with the standard size.
That's @ 6.51 cubic inches, methinks (2 1/8th wide x 3.5" tall x 7/8ths
thick). A standard SD card is 32mm x 24mm x 1mm.
BUT, the original was MICRO-SD.
Those will pack into the cigarette pack with
far less wasted space. can't
really afford the fancy schmancy 128G cards, plus we aren't sure if
our destination drive can read that huge size card, so let's stick with
cheap-az 32G cards.
agreed. Those are currently at a good price point. BUT, we will go with
MICRO-SD[HC], which has more than 4 times the data capacity to physical
volume, at least whe considering the more efficient packing. BUT, if we hold tightly to the original wording,
Micro-SD (V Micro-SDHC)
tops out at 2G each.
Well, he did originally say MicroSD, not SDHC, and when we get to Rhode
Island, I don't want to have to wonder if our client has an SDHC capable
reader, so I'm going to go ahead and standardize on the 2G units.
Seagate makes a 2.5" 2TB (1.81TiB) SATA hard
drive. They're a little
hard to find right now, but readily available (and cheaper) if you buy
their Backup-Plus-Slim, and throw away the external drive housing. Two
of those is about a cigarette pack in size. I sometimes carry two of
those in my shirt pocket.
I use those too. Love them.
But, further considerations:
Is this going to be a one shot transfer, or an ongoing operation?
I'm going to add to the narrative and we'll say it's our first time to
establish the process, but after that it'll be ongoing if we don't smell
too much like a chain smoker when we arrive to the client and get fired.
Where are the endpoints?
We'll start at King Discount Cigarettes in LA. That's:
10662 Riverside Dr, North Hollywood, CA 91602
The client is Rhode Island Hospital. It's:
593 Eddy St, Providence, RI 02903
Distance = 2971 miles on I-40, but I'd rather take I-80 so we can swing by
my place in Colorado on the way. So, that's actually 2998 miles. Sorry,
but hey, Colorado is more scenic and we have legal, uh, stuff there! I did
warn this was a Hunter S. Thompson sort of trip. We just have to be sober
when we get to RI, that's it.
If we assume about 50 hours to drive cross the USA,
that provides a long
data transfer time,
Google says 45h on the trip, but I'm game for using 50 since I need to
stop and, uhm, pee a lot. Plus, there are some really great retro computer
sites along the way! So, yeah, 50h.
whereas a cigarette pack of Micro-SDs could be in your
pocket on a plane
(if TSA will let you through) How many cigarette packs can you fit into
an accepted carry-on bag? (Nobody wants to pay excess for baggage!)
Some notes for folks really checking:
130.9 ft^3 == 226195.2 in^3 == Space in the Ford Focus SE Wagon
10.5 * 10.5 * 1.125 = 124.03 in^3 for the 9-track tapes
(thanks to Chuck Guzis we've updated, we are definitely using the 3M
wraparounds, protectors on our 9-tracks now - we gotta do this right, har
har)
We are ditching the crappy 3000 ft+ tapes and going back to the 2400 foot
tapes. So, we are down to 170MB per tape.
226195.2 / 124.03 = 1823.something tapes!
1823 * 170MB = 302.64 GB
-- the cigarette pack --
One Micro SD card
15mm x 11mm x 1mm = 165 mm^3
Cigarette pack
3.5" * 2 1/8 wide * 7/8" thick
88.9mm * 53.975mm * 22.31mm = 107051.79 mm^3
Rows == 53.9 / 11 = 4.9 (so that's 4)
Columns == 88.9 / 15 = 5.9266 (so that's 5)
So, that's 20 stacks of 1mm cards, we can get 22 in one stack. So that's
440 of them! They only go up to 2G (without SDHC) so that's 880GB!
7:18 p.m.
New subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep)
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote:
I'm
hetero; so we stay away from 100's or 101's. If other folks aren't
we'll need to make adjustments since the pack is probably going to hold a
few more SD's.
You know far more about cigarettes than I do. I wasn't even aware that
there was an associated sexual orientation.
In Colorado, are there other kinds of cigarette packs available?
Hmmm.
Station Wagon full of tapes = 302.64 GB
Cigarette pack full of microSD = 880 GB
* Corrected volume calcs (least I think I did)
* Switched to 2400 ft tapes with 3M cases (thanks Chuck)
* Switched to MicroSD (but no SDHC) so.. 2G only
Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you
mean the dimensions of
a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened
smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s.
I was unaware of that. Where are the
endpoints?
We'll start at King Discount Cigarettes in LA. That's:
10662 Riverside Dr, North Hollywood, CA 91602
The client is Rhode Island Hospital. It's:
593 Eddy St, Providence, RI 02903 Distance = 2971 miles on I-40, but I'd rather take
I-80 so we can swing by
my place in Colorado on the way. So, that's actually 2998 miles. Sorry,
but hey, Colorado is more scenic and we have legal, uh, stuff there! I did
warn this was a Hunter S. Thompson sort of trip. We just have to be sober
when we get to RI, that's it.
My first choice would have been US66, but that doesn't exist any more.
Second choice would have been "Lincoln Highway", which became US40, which
is walking distance from my house in Berkeley, to walking distance from my
sister's place in DC.
But US40 is no more, either, however it can be closely approximated by I80
to SLC, then I70 east.
So, we still get your stop in CO. (for you to buy cigarette packs?)
Google says 45h on the trip, but I'm game for
using 50 since I need to
stop and, uhm, pee a lot. Plus, there are some really great retro computer
sites along the way! So, yeah, 50h.
Double those stops. I had prostate surgery in 2014. It made Windoze
updates look successful.
> whereas a cigarette pack of Micro-SDs could be in
your pocket on a plane
> (if TSA will let you through) How many cigarette packs can you fit into
> an accepted carry-on bag? (Nobody wants to pay excess for baggage!)
WOULD TSA permit carrying multiple memory cards?
How much would we charge per GB for data transfer?
9:38 p.m.
New subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep)
u reliuze theres 64gb and 128gb sd cards now right?
On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 6:18 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote:
I'm hetero; so we stay away from 100's or 101's. If other folks
aren't
we'll need to make adjustments since the pack is probably going to hold a
few more SD's.
You know far more about cigarettes than I do. I wasn't even aware that
there was an associated sexual orientation.
In Colorado, are there other kinds of cigarette packs available?
Where are the endpoints?
We'll start at King Discount Cigarettes in LA. That's:
10662 Riverside Dr, North Hollywood, CA 91602
The client is Rhode Island Hospital. It's:
593 Eddy St, Providence, RI 02903
Hmmm.
Distance = 2971 miles on I-40, but I'd rather take I-80 so we can swing by
WOULD TSA permit carrying multiple memory cards?
How much would we charge per GB for data transfer?
Station Wagon full of tapes = 302.64 GB
Cigarette pack full of microSD = 880 GB
* Corrected volume calcs (least I think I did)
* Switched to 2400 ft tapes with 3M cases (thanks Chuck)
* Switched to MicroSD (but no SDHC) so.. 2G only
Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you mean the dimensions of
a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really
cool enlightened
smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s.
I was unaware of that.
my place in Colorado on the way. So, that's
actually 2998 miles. Sorry,
but hey, Colorado is more scenic and we have legal, uh, stuff there! I did
warn this was a Hunter S. Thompson sort of trip. We just have to be sober
when we get to RI, that's it.
My first choice would have been US66, but that doesn't exist any more.
Second choice would have been "Lincoln Highway", which became US40, which
is walking distance from my house in Berkeley, to walking distance from my
sister's place in DC.
But US40 is no more, either, however it can be closely approximated by I80
to SLC, then I70 east.
So, we still get your stop in CO. (for you to buy cigarette packs?)
Google says 45h on the trip, but I'm game for using 50 since I need to
stop and, uhm, pee a lot. Plus, there are some
really great retro computer
sites along the way! So, yeah, 50h.
Double those stops. I had prostate surgery in 2014. It made Windoze
updates look successful.
whereas a cigarette pack of Micro-SDs could be in your pocket on a plane
(if TSA
will let you through) How many cigarette packs can you fit into
an accepted carry-on bag? (Nobody wants to pay excess for baggage!)
10:06 p.m.
New subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep)
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Adrian Stoness wrote:
u reliuze theres 64gb and 128gb sd cards now right?
Micro-SD (and SD), as was specified originally, is up to 2GB.
(FAT12 and FAT16)
OFFICIALLY:
https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/capacity/
Above 2GB, up to 32GB, you have Micro-SDHC (and SDHC)
(FAT32)
More than 32GB, up to 2TB, is Micro-SDXC and SDXC
(exFAT)
So, therefore, since the original challenge said "Micro-SD cards", there
is a technicality limiting to 2GB.
5:34 p.m.
New subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep)
On 06/03/2016 01:21 PM, Swift Griggs wrote:
So what did I screw up? :-)
Well, one thing that I note is that only an idiot transports valuable
data on "loose" 2400' 10.5" reels. Some sort of retention mechanism
is
desirable, say, a Wright Line-style poly band with hanger hook. That
raises the thickness of the reel to 7/8" and the diameter to about 10
7/8" if you can find some way to minimize the effect of the closure
mechanism. This is better than the hard-plastic cases, which could get
to be quite thick or the 3M hard plastic wraparound protectors, which
can approach 1 1/8" in height. Note that this is nothing more than
yours truly grabbing the first couple of tapes off a pile and measuring.
As Will mentioned, 3600' tapes were nothing but trouble.
I do know that I can fit 6 10.5" reels of tape and their cases in my old
Samsonite briefcase, having done it many times. I wonder how a 727 with
one passenger with 6 2400' tapes flying between San Jose and Dulles
compares in bandwidth...
--Chuck
6:35 p.m.
New subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep)
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Well, one thing that I note is that only an idiot
transports valuable
data on "loose" 2400' 10.5" reels.
Great point. I took that into consideration with my last swag.
This is better than the hard-plastic cases, which
could get to be quite
thick or the 3M hard plastic wraparound protectors, which can approach 1
1/8" in height. Note that this is nothing more than yours truly
grabbing the first couple of tapes off a pile and measuring.
Well, we'll need 1823 of them. 3M will probably restart production in my
fantasy scenario.
As Will mentioned, 3600' tapes were nothing but
trouble.
They are out, I'm going to be in bad enough shape after the drive, I can't
deal with client whining once I get to Rhode Island. Back to 2400.
I do know that I can fit 6 10.5" reels of tape
and their cases in my old
Samsonite briefcase, having done it many times. I wonder how a 727 with
one passenger with 6 2400' tapes flying between San Jose and Dulles
compares in bandwidth...
Hehe, if the thread keeps going I'll have no choice but to start
calculating bandwidth with throughput and latency. Sounds like more fun.
:-)
-Swift
11:47 p.m.
New subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep)
On 3 June 2016 at 22:21, Swift Griggs <swiftgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Mike Stein wrote:
I actually used to drive from A to B or the other way with a car
(sometimes a station wagon) with tapes. 1" tapes, usually. This was in
Italy, and at the time (don't know if it's changed since then) I was
required to keep paperworks not too different from customs forms, with
the tapes. The reason was that to transport an amount of data over a
certain limit required documentation, according to the law. Those
very large spools of 1" tapes could hold quite an amount of data, for
the time, thus the documentation. I didn't need it for just a few
CCTs.
How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes
would fit into a (20)
cigarette box filled with microSD cards?
Station wagon full of tapes = 51 GB
Pack of stogies full of SD = 2816 GB
It's not fair using 9-track tapes, but let's go with it. 
5 Jun
5 Jun
8:21 a.m.
New subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ?
On 3 June 2016 at 07:32, Sam O'nella <barythrin at gmail.com> wrote:
Definitely stay away from Cyrix processors. Most computer stores i knew in the 486 era
wouldn't even sell them or take them as trade ins. Comparability issues and
overheating seemed to be common features.
Really? For a while, I recommended 'em and used 'em myself. My own
home PC was a Cyrix 6x86 P166+ for a while. Lovely machine -- a 133MHz
processor that performed about 30-40% better than an Intel Pentium MMX
at the same clock speed.
My then-employer, PC Pro magazine, recommended them too.
I only ever hit one problem: I had to turn down reviewing the latest
version of Aldus PageMaker because it wouldn't run on a 6x86. I
replaced it with a Baby-AT Slot A Gigabyte motherboard and a Pentium
II 450. (Only the 100MHz front side bus Pentium IIs were worth
bothering with IMHO. The 66MHz FSB PIIs could be outperformed by a
cheaper SuperSocket 7 machine with a Cyrix chip.) It was *very*
difficult to find a Baby-AT motherboard for a PII -- the market had
switched to ATX by then -- but it allowed me to keep a case I
particularly liked, and indeed, most of the components in that case,
too.
The one single product that killed the Cyrix chips was id Software's Quake.
Quake used very cleverly optimised x86 code that interleaved FPU and
integer instructions, as John Carmack had worked out that apart from
instruction loading, which used the same registers, FPU and integer
operations used different parts of the Pentium core and could
effectively be overlapped. This nearly doubled the speed of
FPU-intensive parts of the game's code.
The interleaving didn't work on Cyrix cores. It ran fine, but the
operations did not overlap, so execution speed halved.
On every other benchmark and performance test we could device, the
6x86 core was about 30-40% faster than the Intel Pentium core -- or
the Pentium MMX, as nothing much used the extra instructions, so
really only the additional L1 cache helped. (The Pentium 1 had 16 kB
of L1; the Pentium MMX had 32 kB.)
But Quake was extremely popular, and everyone used it in their
performance tests -- and thus hammered the Cyrix chips, even though
the Cyrix was faster in ordinary use, in business/work/Windows
operation, indeed in every other game *except* Quake.
And ultimately that killed Cyrix off. Shame, because the company had
made some real improvements to the x86-32 design. Improving
instructions-per-clock is more important than improving the raw clock
speed, which was Intel's focus right up until the demise of the
Netburst Pentium 4 line.
AMD with the 64-bit Sledgehammer core (Athlon 64 & Opteron) did the
same to the P4 as Cyrix's 6x86 did to the Pentium 1. Indeed I have a
vague memory some former Cyrix processor designers were involved.
Intel Israel came back with the (Pentium Pro-based) Pentium M line,
intended for notebooks, and that led to the Core series, with IPC
speeds that ultimately beat even AMD's.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
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