Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern)
8 Oct
2012
8 Oct
'12
10:59 a.m.
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 1:17 PM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
Well, I wanted it to remain straight in the end; it
just needed to
go straight up through the walls. The problem was one of simple
geometry, specifically inserting a 10-foot pipe vertically into the
wall-ceiling junction of a 6-foot basement. I didn't particularly
want to cut it, and the pipe resumed its previous shape fairly
quickly once I got it into the wall.
Gotcha. That's part of why I went with Innerduct - I'd worked with it
in a commercial setting and was able to buy 100' off the reel at a local
Granger's supply.
If I were trying large PVC conduit in a short basement, I'd also consider
a joint in the middle, but it seems that you worked it all out.
I was just lucky enough that the folks who had
rehabbed the house
back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space
around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also
lucky that said space intersected my office). I ended up with
a built-in channel running straight from the basement to the
top floor for free; all I needed was to put a pipe in there so
the wires had some guidance going down.
I had the same advantage in my 85-yro house (now 98-yro!) - next
to the stackpipe is a laundry chute from the bathroom to the
basement. The back bedroom shared a wall with that, and there
was room around it to run the innerduct. I did have to rip a large
hole in the bedroom wall to mount the various duplex boxes
since it wasn't easy to find larger low-voltage boxes. Now, I
can goe to Lowe's and get the big orange plastic wall boxes
that even directly accept (with concentric breakouts) 1" and
larger conduit.
If I ever build a house, I'm going to run innerduct all over
the place. The stuff is really handy to work with (and comes
with pull-rope/tape already installed). It's specifically designed
for fiber, but there's no problem sharing the space with
twisted pair low-voltage cables.
-ethan
8 Oct
8 Oct
12:07 p.m.
indeed that stuff is so handy. note don't forget to attach a pull rope to
the wire ur pulling so u can pull another one next time. o and never run
data cables next to power....
as the power will blead out a bit and can interfeer with ur data lines
done lots of industrial work managing cable trays
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 1:17 PM, David Riley
<fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
Well, I wanted it to remain straight in the end;
it just needed to
go straight up through the walls. The problem was one of simple
geometry, specifically inserting a 10-foot pipe vertically into the
wall-ceiling junction of a 6-foot basement. I didn't particularly
want to cut it, and the pipe resumed its previous shape fairly
quickly once I got it into the wall.
Gotcha. That's part of why I went with Innerduct - I'd worked with it
in a commercial setting and was able to buy 100' off the reel at a local
Granger's supply.
If I were trying large PVC conduit in a short basement, I'd also consider
a joint in the middle, but it seems that you worked it all out.
I was just lucky enough that the folks who had
rehabbed the house
back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space
around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also
lucky that said space intersected my office). I ended up with
a built-in channel running straight from the basement to the
top floor for free; all I needed was to put a pipe in there so
the wires had some guidance going down.
I had the same advantage in my 85-yro house (now 98-yro!) - next
to the stackpipe is a laundry chute from the bathroom to the
basement. The back bedroom shared a wall with that, and there
was room around it to run the innerduct. I did have to rip a large
hole in the bedroom wall to mount the various duplex boxes
since it wasn't easy to find larger low-voltage boxes. Now, I
can goe to Lowe's and get the big orange plastic wall boxes
that even directly accept (with concentric breakouts) 1" and
larger conduit.
If I ever build a house, I'm going to run innerduct all over
the place. The stuff is really handy to work with (and comes
with pull-rope/tape already installed). It's specifically designed
for fiber, but there's no problem sharing the space with
twisted pair low-voltage cables.
-ethan
3:17 p.m.
On 10/8/2012 10:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> >I was just lucky enough that the folks who had
rehabbed the house
> >back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space
> >around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also
> >lucky that said space intersected my office).
Off the computer topic here,
but on topic of not burning your house
down, there is a code required keepout between chimneys and hot exhausts
that must not have combustibles there. If you are in a situation where
they took an old brick chimney and lined it with a stainless insert it
probably isn't the problem you would have if it were not. Usually they
don't trust masonry w/o lining it after it gets old for gas and heat
leaks anyway.
But if you are running something the creates creosote inside the system,
you might have a fire which could set off your conduit if it isn't
fireproof. Creosote fires for wood are common if you have the right
conditions.
I have a house I can't get insured because of old masonry chimney which
isn't based on the ground. but that's a way long off topic story.
jim
3:29 p.m.
time to get it fixed i would say being ur chimny
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 5:17 PM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
On 10/8/2012 10:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
there is a code required keepout
between chimneys and hot exhausts that
must not have combustibles there. If you are in a situation where they
took an old brick chimney and lined it with a stainless insert it probably
isn't the problem you would have if it were not. Usually they don't trust
masonry w/o lining it after it gets old for gas and heat leaks anyway.
But if you are running something the creates creosote inside the system,
you might have a fire which could set off your conduit if it isn't
fireproof. Creosote fires for wood are common if you have the right
conditions.
I have a house I can't get insured because of old masonry chimney which
isn't based on the ground. but that's a way long off topic story.
jim
I was just
lucky enough that the folks who had rehabbed the house
Off the computer topic here,
but on topic of not burning your house down, back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had
left extra space
around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also
lucky that said space intersected my office).
4:23 p.m.
On 10/8/2012 3:29 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
>I have a house I can't get insured because of
old masonry chimney which
>isn't based on the ground. but that's a way long off topic story.
>jim
>
It's an old farm house, my grandfather built. Noone required you to do
anything then. He built an 18" square chimney from the floor up thru
the roof, since the house is on rubble columns. The entire frame and
structure is white oak, so no problem with holding up a load like that.
However fire code apparently requires masonry structures for this
purpose to be run to ground. So the fix is to pull his work and replace
it with modern, or just live with it. I'm voting for the latter, it's
been fine for 57 years. I hate retrofitting of new code to old
structures, when what is working is working. People aren't permitted to
use common sense anymore under any circumstances. This is a case where
the code doesn't match the fact. I could also just pull the stove, it
doesn't heat the place anyway, and when I go to occupy it put in forced
air. Right now I only want insurance against wildfire and theft since
it sits 364 days of the year with only jackrabbits around it.
8:06 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 6:17 PM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
On 10/8/2012 10:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>
>> >I was just lucky enough that the folks who had rehabbed the house
>> >back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space
>> >around the old chimney...
Not my quote, not my house. Some attribution was removed here.
I had the vertical space between the stack and a laundry chute. *That*
would no longer be strict to code since it's a large space with no firebreak,
but the house was built in 1914 and in any case, the chimney is on the
other end of the house (and was only ever gas, not wood, and isn't even
used for the furnace since I replaced the old burner with a 90-whatever%
efficiency model with PVC exhaust).
No obvious code violations at my place. Nothing to see. Move along.
-ethan
8:13 p.m.
On 10/8/2012 9:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I had the vertical space between the stack and a
laundry chute. *That*
would no longer be strict to code since it's a large space with no firebreak,
but the house was built in 1914 and in any case, the chimney is on the
other end of the house (and was only ever gas, not wood, and isn't even
used for the furnace since I replaced the old burner with a 90-whatever%
efficiency model with PVC exhaust).
No obvious code violations at my place. Nothing to see. Move along.
You still have time to put that secret passage between the lab and the
living
room. You have a choice of sliding or revolving bookcase. :)
-ethan
Ben.
9:26 p.m.
On 8 Oct 2012, at 8:13 PM, ben wrote:
You still have time to put that secret passage between
the lab and the living
room. You have a choice of sliding or revolving bookcase. :)
In my case it's pivoting bookcases using absurdly expensive but uber-cool hidden pivot
hinges. All closets look like bookcases, and yes, there's a secret passage to one of
the outbuildings through one of them :)
I went for interduct between floors as well. Stuff on each floor is just naked 5e sucked
down through interior non-bearing walls; runs to outbuildings is cat6 in non-metalic
conduit.
And yes, always pull a new pull line when using the previous one to pull a new cable or
you'll seriously hate life :P
--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."
9:38 p.m.
On Mon, 8 Oct 2012, Christian Kennedy wrote:
On 8 Oct 2012, at 8:13 PM, ben wrote:
A friend of mine described a time when he found a cable tech in the
basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run
cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the duct
with the cable coming in through a wye.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
You still have time to put that secret passage
between the lab and the
living room. You have a choice of sliding or revolving bookcase. :)
In my case it's pivoting bookcases using absurdly expensive but
uber-cool hidden pivot hinges. All closets look like bookcases, and
yes, there's a secret passage to one of the outbuildings through one of
them :)
I went for interduct between floors as well. Stuff on each floor is just
naked 5e sucked down through interior non-bearing walls; runs to
outbuildings is cat6 in non-metalic conduit.
And yes, always pull a new pull line when using the previous one to pull
a new cable or you'll seriously hate life :P
9:48 p.m.
On 10/8/2012 9:38 PM, David Griffith wrote:
A friend of mine described a time when he found a cable tech in the
basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run
cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the
duct with the cable coming in through a wye.
A friend of mine wired a couple of
terminals for a guy in Hays, Ks. who
did his boring for wiring thru the floor from the basement with a .45.
Luckily only three extra cables and terminals. He had to go to the car
to get his ear protection.
9:53 p.m.
On Mon, 8 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote:
A friend of mine described a time when he found a
cable tech in the
basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run
cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the duct
with the cable coming in through a wye.
I have used a crossbow,
and a couple of times, I had my dog pull wire. He did OK, but nowhere
near as well as a dachshund trained for "earthdog"
9 Oct
9 Oct
5:53 a.m.
I recommend Ferrets (Polecats) for this work.
Attach a line to its collar. Place a dead rabbit where you want it to exit.
Works every time.
Regards
?
Rod Smallwood
?
?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
Sent: 09 October 2012 05:54
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive
Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern)
On Mon, 8 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote:
A friend of mine described a time when he found a
cable tech in the
basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run
cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the duct
with the cable coming in through a wye.
I have used a crossbow,
and a couple of times, I had my dog pull wire. He did OK, but nowhere
near as well as a dachshund trained for "earthdog"
9:26 a.m.
On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Rod Smallwood wrote:
I recommend Ferrets (Polecats) for this work.
Attach a line to its collar. Place a dead rabbit where you want it to exit.
Works every time.
Use a loop, not a solid attachment, in case they wander around a post or
other obstacle en route!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:22 a.m.
On 10/09/2012 05:53 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
I recommend Ferrets (Polecats) for this work.
Attach a line to its collar. Place a dead rabbit where you want it to exit.
Works every time.
"Polecat" must be another one of those words that mean different things
in the US and Blighty. In the US, a "polecat" commonly refers to a
skunk (cf. Yosemite Sam).
They might work for running cables, but I doubt that a customer would be
appreciative.
--Chuck
7:49 a.m.
On 10/09/2012 12:53 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Mon, 8 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote:
I've used a radio-controlled tank to pull cable through many a
ceiling. That approach works pretty well.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
A friend of mine described a time when he found a
cable tech in the
basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run
cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the duct
with the cable coming in through a wye.
I have used a crossbow,
and a couple of times, I had my dog pull wire. He did OK, but nowhere
near as well as a dachshund trained for "earthdog" 
10:18 a.m.
From: Christian Kennedy
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 9:26 PM
And yes, always pull a new pull line when using the
previous one to
pull a new cable or you'll seriously hate life :P
We once learned the hard way that an electrician (a supposed union
professional) used that green wire in the cable trays as a pull line--
and didn't bother to attach anything to replace it. This was in the
computer room at the LOTS facility at Stanford.
The company that sent the twit paid to run new ground wire, with pull
lines.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
8:09 a.m.
On Oct 8, 2012, at 6:17 PM, jim s wrote:
On 10/8/2012 10:59 AM, [David Riley] wrote:
Indeed! The folks who rehabbed it did it the right way; they
ran the exhaust chimneys for the furnace and the water heater
(which do get quite hot, along with ferrying and potentially
depositing partial combustion byproducts) up through the
chimney and ran the actual ventilation ductwork outside the
masonry. They built extra space into the drywall, which is
what I ran my conduit through (there was enough left-over
space for a 2" pipe).
There are some sort-of firebreaks going on between floors
which the vent ducts go through, but they're not completely
covering the aperture. I'm not 100% confident it would pass
code, but it's what I've got for now. I'll have to ask a
code inspector about it someday.
> >I was just lucky enough that the folks
who had rehabbed the house
> >back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space
> >around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also
> >lucky that said space intersected my office).
Off the computer topic here,
but on topic of not burning your house down, there is a code required keepout between
chimneys and hot exhausts that must not have combustibles there. If you are in a
situation where they took an old brick chimney and lined it with a stainless insert it
probably isn't the problem you would have if it were not. Usually they don't trust
masonry w/o lining it after it gets old for gas and heat leaks anyway. But if you are running something the creates creosote
inside the system, you might have a fire which could set off your conduit if it isn't
fireproof. Creosote fires for wood are common if you have the right conditions.
We have all natural gas (from free range burritos!), so
creosote isn't really a problem. Not that there aren't
potential problems with partial combustion products of
natural gas, but they're much less common, especially with
a well-maintained furnace.
- Dave
4457
days inactive
4458
days old
16 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chris＠mainecoon.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
RichA＠vulcan.com -
rodsmallwood＠btconnect.com -
tdk.knight＠gmail.com