Foo, it never occured to me to try that path to get one for mine... I do hae the rx01 and maybe the rx02 manuals. I ahve to check to see if the drawing for the rx8e are in them as it has to be a trivial board. Allison

On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 04:17:32PM -0400, allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote: I definitely have RX8E prints so if you don't already, let me know if you want a copy. There's not much to the board at all, the parts that actually *do* anything are dwarfed by the drivers/receivers/selection stuff. John Wilson D Bit

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What do you want for them? -Lawrence LeMay

----- Original Message ----- From: <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 6:24 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 about more No, that's going-rate collector prices. And, no, I don't know anyone who has ever *paid* for any license for any old DEC equipment for personal use. DOS-11 and old RT11 v1 is almost 30 years old - no one cares about a license for such things. I don't know what these systems sell commercially for. http://www.pdp8.com/ john

This is an old argument, but I know of nothing better than the open market to set a "fair" price. A caveat that many people on this list seem to cheerfully brush aside is that a "really" working system has a LOT more value. So many people are willing to buy junk and "hope" it works, or that they can fix it, it just isn't funny. There is also a BIG difference in the value of a fully refurbished unit vs a "working" unit.

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Apart from people freaking out about eBay, I think the classic computer hobby is doing fine. More people than ever realize that there are weirdos out there who'd be glad to pick up their old computers. The Net is screwing up all sorts of markets. For example, I'm doing some consulting for a pottery business. They're not small, roughly $8M a year. They have thousands of dealers who buy at 50% of retail and sell in their real-world shops. One of them has figured out eBay. They buy at dealer price, put the item on eBay and generally get retail price *or more*. That's like taking $1 today and turning it into $2 a week from now, and being able to do it again and again. RK05s? I bought five RL02 disk packs the other day for $2 each. I see they're going for $30 on eBay. I'll use the proceeds to fund other bad habits. - John

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Good grief, someone puts the word "historic" on a computer and look what happens to the price someone else is willing to pay. Hmmm, maybe its the "rush" one gets after taxes are done. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 For those that don't choose to browse, the closing price was $10K.

----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:05 PM Subject: Ebay Altair Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( john

<snip> That's what I *hate* about auctions. Altairs generally sell between $3-4K. I remember last year they were selling for around $2K. Agreed. I never use just one auction or sale to justify "value". I did notice on that auction that at least 4 people wanted to pay over $4000. I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just don't sit well on eBay. It only takes two! john

----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay &lt;lemay(a)cs.umn.edu&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 8:19 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair Doesn't Keyways charge $250 for 8/E core memory set? What did the 8/E EAE set sell for, and when?

johnb wrote: No, a 4K set (and yes I bought one, no it didn't work (but I fixed it)) and no Mitch doesn't seem to have any more. $77, in part because I didn't get my final bid in. I'd have at least paid $100 for a complete 8/E cpu + EAE with connectors. Even shipping it services (DHL quoted me $30 for 3-day air service) --Chuck

<snip>when use False? I *have* been asked by many deep pocket collectors not to put any sort of large , really rare computers on eBay. I sold the PDP-15, a couple /35s and a few other 8s through private offers. I personally don't think eBay is the place to sell *huge* minicomputers. It was requested by 3 already that I NOT put the PDP-10 on eBay as they would not bid, and really that would not be too tasteful in my eyes anyway. <snip It makes perfect sense. You get 4 or 5 multi-million $$ deep pockets specifically looking for old minicomputer stuff and bidding heavily on eBay and watch what would happen. Look at what happened to the Cray manual when someone here on the list tried to bid against Nathan [closed around $2700, and he was *not* going to be outbid]. Quite a few deep pocket collectors are now looking at *preserving* either their first computer or put together a small museum. $10,000 is nothing to pay for a small rare computer when you have a billion. Put up something like a KA-10 on eBay for auction and inform a few deep pockets and watch the bids[I know of 3 *really* deep pockets that want one - period! ] BTW: I put the PDP-11/35 on eBay *only* to show what these computers were *really* selling for.. I was a bit upset as I got *less* than I usually do. As for using auctions to value computers? Sotheby's uses past auction sales *to* determine value all the time. want just > > don't sit well on eBay. > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. Shipping a PDP-15 to the West Coast was under $2000. A PDP-8/I rackful to the west coast - $800US. A PDP-11/35 to Chicago was under $200US (and would not fit on a UPS truck). 40,000 pounds of computers to the West Coast (from Toronto) - $7000US + ins. Airlines charge $1.20/pound on average to the US. Trucks are much less if a large load is going. Shipping is a non issue when it comes to heavy computers anymore. All depends how rare the computer is. > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > hobby (and others as well). I (most of all) am really fed up with eBay. I have lost several *volume* PDP-8 and PDP-11 deals because the individual involved happens to look on eBay to see what they are going for. I specifically lost 3 PDP-8/Es in NC for a few hundred $$$ because this guy saw an 8/E sell on eBay for $1400US just before the deal closed :-( http://www.pdp8.com/ John > Sellam

I'm not so sure the scarcity of a computer, taken by itself, is a meaningful factor in determining the price on eBay. The Altair has gotten a lot of help from the "revenge of the nerds" thing on PTV, and there are a lot of folks who can remember not buying one back in the '70's because they were expensive, who now have more dough than they need. If it's well promoted, as the Altair has been by virtue of that PTV piece, among others, it matters little that the Altair was, in reality, a VERY mediocre product that barely worked when it did and mostly didn't. People did use them, after much effort, to accomplish useful work, however. I know of one civil engineer turned accident-reconstructionist who lost money during the years he used time-shared DEC computers but started to turn a profit once he bought his Altair. I doubt, by the way, that the value of the DEC service was a factor. Having nothing more than a teletype and a timeshare account was common back then. A lot of people spent lots of time sweating over an Altair, SOL, or IMSAI just to prove their decision to buy the thing wasn't misguided. Those are the guys who are bidding them up, I'd guess. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: johnb &lt;dylanb(a)sympatico.ca&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:05 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair really once have effect eBay are inform that do. sales would (from US. when this

At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: I think it can be argued differently, especially the "nothing but" part. Think of how many people are now digging out old computers, or getting them back into circulation instead of just scrapping them. The prices might be up, but so is the supply. And, in time, some of the people who bought some computer in a fit of nostalgia for too much on ebay will get tired of their machine and probably put it back into the market, especially if the paid real $$ for it. It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put a value on it? So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another butterfly in the butterfly collection. I like ebay. ----- Jim Battle == frustum(a)pacbell.net

This whole issue is subject to the old military saying, "Where you sit determines what you see." You see, eBay doesn't do anything at all to the prices. They don't care what the buy and sell prices are, except to the extent that it impacts their "cut" and that's quite small. If you want to sell your old micro/mini computer, eBay's a boon, because it puts your hardware in front of lots of people who actually want it, i.e. you don't have to beg, "Gee, can't you take this off my hands? I hate to toss it out." What's more, it benefits the hobby because the people who pay those higher prices are likely to keep them "alive" rather than tossing them. Additonally, the increased interest/activity promotes interest/activity in the classic computer arena. The higher prices motivate people to clean up and check out their antique computers from that dank corner in the basement and make them available to those who actually want them. I don't see where this activity hurts anyone except the cheapo who wants everything for free. Now, I'll admit that I'm inclined to be one of those guys who want things for free, but I realize that can't be the case all the time, simply based on how large the effort to rescue my own antique hardware, etc, from oblivion in the "pit" in the basement. The eBay phenomenon is not just a testament to the inane and impulsive nature of humankind, but also a testament to the benefit of greater communication as brought about by the exploitation of the technology that certainly is an outgrowth of the very computers we're trying to buy or sell. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Battle &lt;frustum(a)pacbell.net&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:12 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair

Richard Erlacher wrote: Absolutely! I am one of those Cheapos who want everything for free (or very close.) But different strokes for different folks; some people would rather pay others to find/display/offer/auction items they are interested in. Myself, I would much rather search through a swap meet/flea market/garage sale/etc. near the end and find something everyone else didn't know about. Kind of like the Walkirt Binary Counter; picked it up out of the trash after everyone else had gone through the stuff. Yea!!!

On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: Steal what? Air? What if you didn't know they routinely sold for $3000 on eBay either? Have you then stolen from them in that case? What if the person was glad to see it go in any case? What have you stole Why do you characterize such people as "poor" or "unsuspecting"? Of course, I can't deny there is a sense of having taken advantage of someone (hey, I can be human too...sometimes) but why should I go out of my way to part ways with $3,000? Sellam

I'm not sure that it is guilt. I think it is depression from having to pay more ebay-like prices for something we like to tinker with. It is depressing to see stuff go higher on Ebay that you could reasonably(?) afford or justify to yourself... (Let alone your spouse). George george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

No. Perhaps some ads have an element of fraud, but caveat emptor. The BUYER has an obligation to be informed, to learn about what they purchase, and they bare the responsibility for doing it. Ethics related to the buyer informing the seller are much less clear, and what I do personally varies considerably from person to person.

Well... No! Are you feeling guilty if you win an Altair auction at USD 10 ? Or are you feeling better when you buy an egg at a delicatessen store for USD 2.- instead of a quater at a farmers barn ? The prices on eBay, and maybe some other locations are ridiculus high when compared to the price at the orgin. I doubt that most are sold by the original owner. It's a bit like in the vintage car business - a '61 Beetle may be offered on an auction (or from a dealer) in good condition at 5000 USD - or you may catch a bad one also at 5000, since you don't have the time to wait for one (A difference in here is that due the more established used / vintage car bussiness, most companies are specialized to sell good or well restored cars, while in the vintage computer area still prices are made regardless of the condition). Or you may muy the named Beetle for just 500 USD in superior condition from the original owner. So is this a theft ? And even more, when you buy a well restored, almost like new car you still pay only said 5000 USD, although the owner did pour in USD 7000 just for the restauration... After all, I hope we reach soon a level like in the vintage car business, where you get at least an average chance to pay only what's worth, and where a market value is established - at the moment we are far from that. Gruss H. P.S.: Just for the Beetle fans among us (*w* Ethan), the number 5000 is not related to any real value, just a number for example purpose. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

Which "real world" would this be? Ebay is much higher than scrap yards, and much lower than legacy support. Define artificial? Simple test, what items do you have that eBay prices are now too high on, such that you are willing to sell? Or is it just that eBay prices are too high for you to buy at, yet still far too low for you to sell at.

foo wrote: The free market works well when there is communication between buyers and sellers. We most likely will continue to disagree about ebay as its effects on prices vs worth. I, and many others, have gotten some very good deals on ebay generally because of mis-spellings, wrong classification, etc. which imply ignorance on the part of the seller. Does this mean the seller got what their item was worth ... or they got what was coming to them? I think most of us are in this hobby either to preserve the history (as in my case) or just to have fun with. The price you quote as to the worth of your collection in ebay dollars is probably understated ... ASSUMING that you didn't put the whole collection up at one time.

At 18:04 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: For me, eBay has made it possible for to obtain a few things that would never have reasonably come my way. I could certainly roam around the U.S. and abroad and sniff around all the really good sites, but here in Oregon there isn't much coming available that I'm interested in (or that isn't being snapped up by one or more busier members of this list <g>.) When you count the cost of even CHEAP transportation, eBay *can* (not always) be cheaper. What I truly find distressing though is the tendency to "chop" some items (e.g. front panels, core memory arrays, etc.) to make "trophies" to hang on the wall (I know this has been covered, ad nauseam.) One item that really ticks me off is the little .5 inch square core memory arrays being sold in little plastic "specimen" boxes. <RANT> This is one area where I agree that eBay has made a frenzy of things. I doubt if more than a few percent of the core memories will ever find their way back into an operating system. In most cases, even if the memory planes are intact, they've been separated from their siblings and you'd never be able to reconnect the thousands of wires to reorganize the stack. I've been looking for some "intact" core stacks for years now and they're all showing up one plane at a time for at least $100 per trophy. And sellers are in no way interested in selling a complete stack. Of *course* they want to turn it into the $1000+ that eBay will bring... Do you blame them? This seems a lot like taking a sculpture and breaking it into a thousand pieces so you can sell them off for a higher price. "I couldn't afford the whole thing, but I did get a piece of it..." </RANT> The want me back at the home, now... Oh well, -Gary

Gary Oliver wrote: I am not sure what ebay you are looking at, but I just took a look at completed "core memory" auctions and the prices seemed to be in the $40 - $50 range. I sold some DataRam core plane modules that closed around $40 or so untested. It was only a few months ago I talked to a person who was still selling these core planes tested and working for $1000. I think the person who is cutting up the core planes and selling sections could be best described as sick ... almost as sick as the people who buy them and make it worth someones time and money to cut these things apart.

When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. Additionally, if you set a benchmark value for KS10s, please divide your value by six or so, as a number of us (RCS/RI, RICM, Carl, myself and others) have received machines for free. Street price kind of blows the mean, doesn't it? Another thing, stop advertising vaporware. I do not think you know what you are in for in a KL10. I know of that specific machine, but I doubt you will be able to boot it. Some of use are still waiting for that IBM S/360, anyway. And the PDP-1. And the KA10. Finally, it is very bad form to comment about a bidder's habits with a real name in a public forum. The whole idea behind eBay names is to shield the bidders. This idea applies to most non-government auctions in general. John B, you may be OK to talk to and certainly you know your way around a machine, but you need to take some night courses in ethics, economics, and statistics. William Donzelli aw288(a)osfn.org

<snip> tape he KL10, No, we have already discussed the value of minicomputers from both perspectives. I guess it depends on where you come from and how you collect. I can understand the resistance in this group as higher costs *do* make computers much more difficult to collect. I am far more interested in a KA10 or KI10 (where I have a bid currently). The KA10 is really nice as it runs off 220V. I believe this question has been answered here before but - does anyone here actually have a Real KA,KI, or KL running and booting? machine a too". The buyers ("demand") will always dictate value. If no one wanted old computers they would be worthless (in a $$$ sense). Regards, John. P.S. I am moving today so if anyone needs to get a hold of me please wait until Monday - my DSL will be down.

Bingo! William Donzelli aw288(a)osfn.org

We are talking in most cases a SERIOUS amount of value added, not only do I dig up the rare part, I know what it is, know how to test it, fix it, know it from the rev b that is worthless, etc. etc. For me, eBay has brought too many sellers to the market so that prices are often too low for me to buy and sell items at anything remotely like a profit considering my time to even pack, let alone find something.

Just depends, when some seller throws that at me, and I KNOW they aren't a eBay seller, I give them the "other side of eBay speech". Have they ever done a web page, since EACH eBay ad is much like a web page, and only the well done ads get top dollar. What kind of guarantee do they plan on giving me, on eBay if they sell me crap I can post negative feedback so nobody sane will buy from them. Finally whats it worth to them not to have to pack the item, since nobody on eBay is willing to pay above actual shipping costs. Half the time I convince myself I don't want to mess with selling the items on eBay either. Paying retail, phooey, I don't like paying some scrap prices.

On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: A point well worth quoting. This is exactly what I have said in the past and it is correct. eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really should not be. Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) Sellam

On Wed, 10 May 2000, Marvin wrote: The example I had in my head when I wrote that was me. It's a lot different when you can look critically at yourself and realize there's a problem. How many others have done so?

At 08:59 AM 5/10/00 -0700, you wrote: Hi, my name is Carlos and I am an eBayer :-) . Of course, I've bought things that I probably shouldn't have bought (I took risks). On the other hand, in teeny isolated Ithaca there are no scrapyards and there is only one ham meeting a year (there is another one close by, so that makes two hamfests a year). My only source of free stuff is the ocassional find at the dumpster in the EE department. And I am not going to cut short what little family time I have on weekends in order to drive long distances to more plentiful lands. Tim: sniping actually works. You just have to set your limit beforehand. If the bids get past that limit, then don't snipe. Bidding early does help bring the price up because others have more time to convince themselves that they want the same thing. Someone pointed out that this has more or less the effect of making the auction mechanism more like a sealed bid auction, since snipers often don't have the time to submit a second bid. are not a good indicator of proper market value because the price is not allowed to go down. In a rational market, repeated interaction, equal visibility and access, and the fact that the price _is_ allowed to go down as well as up is what makes it possible to find the market equilibrium. Thus, not even the average price of many eBay auctions is a good indicator of market value, because all samples are biased. Somebody already pointed out that eBay is good for sellers. Of course it is good; the mechanism is biased in their favor. Still, for reasons of local scarcity, I am glad that eBay exists.

On Wed, 10 May 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: Why do you limit yourself to only the yearly hamfest? What about the regular flea markets? What about the thrift stores? I'm sure you have one or the other or both in your area or at least within a 30 mile drive. What about placing an ad in your local paper? WANTED: Cash for your Old Computers! (Be sure to mention 1985 or earlier or else all you'll get is PC schlock.) Well, you must be an adventurer if you're really to enjoy this. That means occasional long drives. Make it a family event! I guess that article on where to find old computers that I've been meaning to write is still very relevant. I'll dust it off and finish it up. Sellam

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Aaaah! Stop torturing me, we all know the 99 cent whopper is gone, don't rub it in.

At 07:48 AM 5/10/00 -0700, foo wrote: All this coming from the one who knew about the price of speculums on eBay. :-) - John

----- Original Message ----- From: William Donzelli &lt;aw288(a)osfn.org&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 1:46 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair when use that the want just I am surprised at your logic William - *Most* Museums aquire *very* expensive items for free... and the value of those items don't drop in half because of it. I know someone who bought a Group of 7 painting last month for 50 cents. Should they divide the $35,000US value of the painting in half now? BTW: The KL10 sent to RCS was not running was it?, and a year later now (or more), is *still* not running. KS10s are &^& (can't use that word here). I don't have a *single* order for one - and never will. Vaporware? Think I've done pretty good. The IBM/360 was crushed as my offer was not high enough - Union Carbide, Welland, Ontario. Kevin Stumpf was going partners on it. Which KL-10 do you think I am getting? It *is* running software now! Will be emulated through June. PDP-1 very high possibility. KA-10 - I have already had one, passed on another for $300 from Beverly Surplus *before* they were worth anything. I am finding most of these old kinds of computers (like the original PDP-11s) through leads and engineers. I am told where they are - it's all a matter of beating them to the crusher. Funny William, I won't waste my time responding to your last comments but.... I am finding most of these minicomputers in the United States, *not* Canada. Regards, http://www.pdp8.com/ john

johnb wrote: "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, though, is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay for the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money.

What's just as likely is that the Altair will go un-paid-for, thereby leaving the notion that it should bring a high price, but without any actual consummated sale. Most of us won't know about that little detail, but will surely remember that an Altair, probably worth at least that much if inflation is taken into consideration and if you simply consider what it cost back in the "old days" when it was purchased. Note that this one had a 4K Ram board and a CPU, but little else, hence, it was probably just held for investment. This is how the prices are pushed up. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin &lt;marvin(a)rain.org&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair prices sold though, for

Craig Smith &lt;ip500(a)roanoke.infi.net&gt; wrote: Hi I think everyone is avoiding the word "shill". On an item like this, it might pay to way over bid the item and buy it back. This sets a price in peoples minds as to how much they should pay for an item. Two months later, you put the same item up for bid with a different seller name. No one knows any different. If someone actually over bids your high price, let him have it. I do think that as Sellam has said, it makes it hard to find good deals on old machines. Still, I've bought a number of items at what I consider a fair price. I don't think I've under payed for anything and in a few cases, I have over payed. There have been items that may have been scrapped, if it were not for eBay. I think it is doing more to save old machines than those that are wherehousing them. Not that I have anything against that type of collection either. It is just that so much was ending up at the dump. The only thing I find disturbing about eBay is that 75% of the items are missing the documentation that they originally had. It is not just the machine that has value. The original manuals and schematics are part of the history. Much of the old software is being lost as well. Any thing that helps to keep these things alive is OK with me. I'd rather over pay a little than find the last 'what ever' at the dump after the crawler has run over it. At least if it is bought by someone on eBay, it has a chance of not being trashed. It has value to someone because it is obsolete. It won't get any less obsolete so it will continue to have value and be saved. IMHO Dwight

You mean besides stuffed animals and anal/vaginal speculi? (I'm not making this up). Sellam

The 11/74 was a little more than a prototype since a number of KB11-CM's were built and implemented internally in DEC. The parts were assigned real part numbers and were produced in limited quantities. These 11/74's were pressed into 11/70 service when DEC couldn't meet the demand for Telco (i.e. AT&T) 11/70's due to the FCC specs in the mid '80's. They were allowed to sell refurb machines -- so the 11/74's from internal sites in Massachusetts and New Hampshire were s shipped to the field to replace Field Service and Software (and in our case the Mid Atlantic Region Sales) administrive machines in DEC so the 11/70's running RSTS/E (usually) could be refurbed and shipped to AT&T sites. They even swapped cusomers for Vax 11/780 systems to get these 11/70's back from the field. My biggest fear was backplane failure -- since there were a couple of 11/74 board sets in the country -- but no one knew if there were any backplanes out there and the 11/70 backplanes got real creaky after 10 years or so of field maintenance. bill -- bpechter(a)monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what?

----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell &lt;ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 5:12 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 then the more Very much so. I notice you didn't list FP. If it has that option then add another $1000. PDP-11/45 minicomputers *running* are rather rare. I have visited quite a few web sites and have found most collectors that *do* have them don't have them running. Drives like RK07s and RL01/RL02 are worth nothing. It would be worth more money if you had a PC05 and running DOS-11. Magtape - only DECTape is worth $$$. A/D,D/A always adds value. Rk05's Very much so. I'll tell you what. Go out today and try and find another one... e-mail me in a month, then a year after looking. Only hope is to find one in a PDP-8A. http://www.pdp8.com/ john

----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell &lt;ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 about lot Darn add have more I am speaking from an "actual" collector value point of view. I use the drives too.. No one wants them, DEC made too many of them so they are not rare, hence , they are worth no $$$$$. They are not even worth the shipping. The PDP-11/45 in 1972 was shipped with RF,RS, PC05 type devices. People want the *original* configurations.. not a bunch of *new* peripherals. Ie: SCSI boards, etc. Exactly, they are worth "use" value.. they just have no $$$ value - which is what I am after. worth Yikes. Again, collectors like the original stuff *when* it was available. There are a lot of 3rd party devices that are worth $$$ (8 peripherals). the find Exactly, so if you wanted one then it would cost you considerable $$$. Same thing as collecting/restoring old cars, boats, radios, ??? Unfortunatly, PDP-8As aren't worth much $$$ (maybe $100 - so not worth restoring) so they would be stripped and the cards would be placed in an 8E. BTW: I have an 8A I stripped for the interfaces if anyone wants it for the cost of shipping. [that's box PDP-8/A-500, CPU and memory] http://www.pdp8.com john

----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell &lt;ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 7:20 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 Of first storage Agreed. not shipping. Agreed. You *wanted* RK07s for a specific use. want available. I understand. Same Already has. 8E. 12 bit computers were obsolete at the end of the '60s. A 12 bit computer built 6 years after they were *totally* useless is not my cup of tea... and the Preservation comes in many packages. If I can use the peripherals from one *new*, very common computer in an old one then I would prefer to increase the value and use of the old computer. If the subscribers on this list tried to preserve every computer they got then they would probably be using COCO-2s for insulation in their homes ;-). My objective has always been to preserve any computer built before 1973 - and I have saved well over 60 of those since the beginning of the year from the dump, crushers, etc... Not every computer can be preserved , ie: PDP-11/34. If I saw an 11/34 with an RK11-D in it I would take the RK11 and any other *useful* interface and drop it into some older unibus computer made before '73. I get quite a few 11/34s in and *no* one wants them. By the end of this month I will have gone through at least 25 34's and I am getting another 8 PDP-11/34 systems in June - who wants the CPUs??? I guess it's different for folks who don't get a lot of old systems. http://www.pdp8.com/ John

<snip> -> Oh well... 2 interests (old radios and old clocks) gone already. Same here as far as old (1919 to 1950's) radios go. Can you say Catalan, boys and girls? -> Now I'm likely to leave classic computing as well. Well, I'll be here until the value of an old (vintage) computer is based on the style of the cabinet or the material the cabinet is made of. By that time, the computer museums will be well established and properly representative of this era. I won't have any qualms then about selling my vintage computer equipment to a "collector", because by then the rarest and best of mine will have been donated to the museums and the "collectors" will fund my retirement pastimes. Do you plan on donating the best yours or just feeding the frenzy? -> Looks like it's time to find some other interesting form of machinery to investigate. Like what, articulated Beanie Babies??? -> > 12 bit computers were obsolete at the end of the '60s. A 12 -> bit computer -> -> So presumably you think all 4 and 8 bit microprocessors were obsolete -> when they were designs. I doubt you'll find too many people who'll agree -> with that. Obsolescence is generally defined as being when a large percentage of the original using population no longer uses an item because something better or cheaper as come along. As far as I'm concerned, if something still does the job, it is not obsolete. Last weekend I rescued a working VHS VCR from the curbside, with the remote control and original instruction book. It was in the box of the VCR that had replaced it. It is only a 2 head unit, mono audio. Is it obsolete? Not to me. The portable TV I use with it is only mono audio anyway. Is my Betamax Beta Hi-Fi SLR-1200 obsolete? It's over 16 years old and is still working just fine. I can still view all my Beta tapes on it. Is my Signal Corps AC generator obsolete just because it has a 6 cylinder Willy's engine and last saw real use in WWII? Not to me when the power goes off. -> > built 6 years after they were *totally* useless is not my cup -> of tea... and Obsolescence is in the eyes of the user. If someone buys something new, but the technology is a little outdated, what does it matter? The purchase is for the function, not the format. -> 'Totally useless'??? Considering they were sold for about another 10 -> years, and considering I still get to see them (and repair them) -> embedded in machine tools, analytical instruments, etc, I'd not call them totally -> useless. -> -> I know a number of people who'd love to be able to program, and hack -> about on, a real PDP8. Any model. Even an 8/a. -> -> No, they won't pay 'collector' prices for it, but honestly I wonder how -> 'genuine' these prices are. -> -> > Preservation comes in many packages. If I can use the -> peripherals from one -> > *new*, very common computer in an old one then I would prefer -> to increase -> > the value and use of the old computer. If the subscribers on -> this list tried -> -> Ah, that word 'value' again... I have no desire to increase the value of -> anything. -> -> I'd rather have as many machines working as possible. Oh, sure I move -> peripherals between machines -- some of the interfaces on my -> 11/45 came off -> some of my 11/34 machines, but those 11/34s are still working, and still -> have enough interfaces to be useful. -> -> > to preserve every computer they got then they would probably be using -> > COCO-2s for insulation in their homes ;-). My objective has -> always been to -> > preserve any computer built before 1973 - and I have saved -> well over 60 of -> -> My aims are rather different. Yes, I'd preserve anything before -> 1973 that -> I could get my hands on. I'd preserve a lot of significant machines -> _after_ that date as well. -> -> But the main reason I do this is to (a) preserve the knowledge that goes -> with those machines (design techniques, operating methods, etc), (b) to -> allow certain other enthusiasts over here the chance to use machine that -> they otherwise wouldn't be able to see. I started doing this when I -> realised that a lot of my friends (this was back in the mid -> 1980s, FWIW) had -> never used a front panel and had never used paper tape or punched cards. -> ->