14 Jun
2021
14 Jun
'21
1:39 p.m.
From: Tom Uban
it has the early version M7261E Control Logic &
Microprogram board and
the later version M7260 Data Paths board
Ah, I'm glad someone found all that stuff I wrote up there useful. As always,
I _think_ I got it all transcribed correctly, but do be on the lookout for
errors!
it seems like an older/newer combination, but maybe
that was common. I
would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all
work together, but maybe they do?
I honestly don't know. As far as I can tell, the DEC documentation doesn't
even _mention_ the two different board generations; perhaps a sign that they
are functionally interchangeable? (Although even the section on baud rate, in
both DEC-11-HKDBB-A-D and EK-KD11B-MM-001, 4.11, doesn't even mention the
early board. So maybe the manual just ignores the earlier version completely?)
I don't have an /05 up and running at the moment, or I'd check all 4 and see
if they all work.
Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well
and other times
it does not.
What are the failure symptoms? (It's almost certainly going to take a 'scope
to fix it; I expect you have one?)
I'd start by monitoring the CPU clock, and make sure it's running when the
failure happens. (Note that the front console is handled by the microcode, so
if the microcode isn't running, the machine will be totally dead.
EK-KD11B-MM-001 has a good description of how that works.)
my initial messing with KM11 boards, reveals that I
can step the
microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, but when two
KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly
together. Is this expected or do I have an issue there too?
Not sure. EK-KD11B-MM-001 (available at:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/EK-KD11B-MM-001_Jan75.pdf
and definitely something you need) says, at pg. 5-6 "KM11 switches have the
same function in slots KM-1 and KM-2", and on 5-7 "permits the user who has
only one KM11 to plug into either KM-1 or KM-2".
So that _sounds_ like you should be able to plug two in together. The first
indicates that the switches, the only input to the KD11-B from the KM11, are
wired in parallel, and the only other thing on the KM11 are the lights,
outputs. And why mention "user who has only one KM11", if having two is no
use because one can't use two at once?
Noel
14 Jun
14 Jun
1:55 p.m.
On 6/14/21 3:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
I most certainly did - thank you for creating it!
I have KM11s, a scope, a logic analyzer, a
unibone, shiresoft unibus analyzer, etc.
No shortage of gear, just a shortage of time.
I've read that doc, but did not come
away with the impression that both
can be used at the same time or not.
My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic and if you look, switches S3
and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to ground,
so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are simply
tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2.
Alas, using only one KM11 at a time is fine and I will be able to make progress
in that way.
--tom
From: Tom Uban
it has the early version M7261E Control Logic
& Microprogram board and
the later version M7260 Data Paths board
Ah, I'm glad someone found all that stuff I wrote up there useful. As always,
I _think_ I got it all transcribed correctly, but do be on the lookout for
errors! it seems like
an older/newer combination, but maybe that was common. I
would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all
work together, but maybe they do?
I honestly don't know. As far as I can tell, the DEC documentation doesn't
even _mention_ the two different board generations; perhaps a sign that they
are functionally interchangeable? (Although even the section on baud rate, in
both DEC-11-HKDBB-A-D and EK-KD11B-MM-001, 4.11, doesn't even mention the
early board. So maybe the manual just ignores the earlier version completely?)
I don't have an /05 up and running at the moment, or I'd check all 4 and see
if they all work.
Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively
well and other times
it does not.
What are the failure symptoms? (It's almost certainly going to take a 'scope
to fix it; I expect you have one?) I'd start by monitoring the CPU clock, and make
sure it's running when the
failure happens. (Note that the front console is handled by the microcode, so
if the microcode isn't running, the machine will be totally dead.
EK-KD11B-MM-001 has a good description of how that works.)
I think I checked the
clock when I started this project a while back, but I will
check it again. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to provoke two states,
but it mostly picks the completely dysfunctional state, so I'll look at the clock.
my initial
messing with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the
microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, but when two
KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly
together. Is this expected or do I have an issue there too?
Not sure. EK-KD11B-MM-001 (available at:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/EK-KD11B-MM-001_Jan75.pdf
and definitely something you need) says, at pg. 5-6 "KM11 switches have the
same function in slots KM-1 and KM-2", and on 5-7 "permits the user who has
only one KM11 to plug into either KM-1 or KM-2".
So that _sounds_ like you should be able to plug two in together. The first
indicates that the switches, the only input to the KD11-B from the KM11, are
wired in parallel, and the only other thing on the KM11 are the lights,
outputs. And why mention "user who has only one KM11", if having two is no
use because one can't use two at once? Noel
15 Jun
15 Jun
6:58 a.m.
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:34 AM Tom Uban via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic and
if you look, switches S3
and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to ground,
so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are simply
tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2.
I took the switch circuits from the offical KM11 schematics which are
either in the PDP11/45 CPU printset or the RK11-C printset that I
have, I forget which. I certainly didn't add logic or replace
open-collector parts with totem-pole ones.
-tony
7:15 a.m.
While we are on the subject of pdp11/05's I am in the need of repair
services for my M7261 KD11-B CPU board 1
(CONTROL LOGIC & MICROPROGRAMMED MODULE.)
Bill
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 9:59 AM Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:34 AM Tom Uban via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic
and if you look, switches S3
and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to
ground,
so I don't think two boards at one time would
work if these signals are
simply
tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2.
I took the switch circuits from the offical KM11 schematics which are
either in the PDP11/45 CPU printset or the RK11-C printset that I
have, I forget which. I certainly didn't add logic or replace
open-collector parts with totem-pole ones.
-tony
8:47 a.m.
On 6/15/21 8:58 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:34 AM Tom Uban via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I did not mean to imply that you had changed the behavior in your KM11
design.
You are surely a competent and trusted pdp11 resource :)
--tom
My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic
and if you look, switches S3
and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to ground,
so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are simply
tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2.
I took the switch circuits from the offical
KM11 schematics which are
either in the PDP11/45 CPU printset or the RK11-C printset that I
have, I forget which. I certainly didn't add logic or replace
open-collector parts with totem-pole ones.
-tony
11:45 a.m.
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 4:47 PM Tom Uban <tom at figureeightbrewing.com> wrote:
On 6/15/21 8:58 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
I didn't mean to imply anythimg like that either. I was just
confirming that my KM11-a-like and a real one will behave the same
way, so if my version can't be used in pairs in an11/05, then the real
one can't either.. I've been involved with classic computers for long
enough to know that sometimes clones are not exactly identical to the
real thing.
I do have a pair of real KM11s now. Each is a pair of boards that plug
together. The board that goes into the machine's backplane is discrete
transistor lamp drivers, the one that plugs into it (and thus sticks
out of the cardcage) contains the lamps, switches and ICs for the
switch circuitry. I know where they are if you want me to confirm the
IC numbers or whatever.
-tony
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:34 AM Tom Uban via
cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I did not mean to imply that you had changed the behavior in your KM11
design.
You are surely a competent and trusted pdp11 resource :)
My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic
and if you look, switches S3
and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to ground,
so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are simply
tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2.
I took the switch circuits from the offical
KM11 schematics which are
either in the PDP11/45 CPU printset or the RK11-C printset that I
have, I forget which. I certainly didn't add logic or replace
open-collector parts with totem-pole ones.
-tony
11:49 a.m.
On 6/15/21 1:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 4:47 PM Tom Uban <tom at
figureeightbrewing.com> wrote:
Thank you for your offer, but I have one original KM11 (set) as well,
but it is not functional. I think the transistors on the extender half have
been mashed to many times and it is low in my priority list to fix as I
have to of my own "reproduction" boards.
--tom
On 6/15/21 8:58 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
I didn't mean to imply anythimg like that either. I was just
confirming that my KM11-a-like and a real one will behave the same
way, so if my version can't be used in pairs in an11/05, then the real
one can't either.. I've been involved with classic computers for long
enough to know that sometimes clones are not exactly identical to the
real thing.
I do have a pair of real KM11s now. Each is a pair of boards that plug
together. The board that goes into the machine's backplane is discrete
transistor lamp drivers, the one that plugs into it (and thus sticks
out of the cardcage) contains the lamps, switches and ICs for the
switch circuitry. I know where they are if you want me to confirm the
IC numbers or whatever.
-tony On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:34 AM Tom Uban via
cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I did not mean to imply that you had changed the behavior in your KM11
design.
You are surely a competent and trusted pdp11 resource :)
My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic
and if you look, switches S3
and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to ground,
so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are simply
tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2.
I took the switch circuits from the offical
KM11 schematics which are
either in the PDP11/45 CPU printset or the RK11-C printset that I
have, I forget which. I certainly didn't add logic or replace
open-collector parts with totem-pole ones.
-tony 
12:02 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 10:34 PM Tom Uban via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 6/14/21 3:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
and
always,
doesn't
'scope
the
Just to provide some real-world data, I used a pair of KM11's to debug my
11/05, see the picture here:
http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1105-debug.jpg
They worked fine. (These are clones, from Guy Sotomayor's kit.) I can
verify tonight whether I have the earlier or later rev CPU set, if that
helps.
- Josh
From: Tom
Uban
> it has the early version M7261E Control Logic & Microprogram board the later
version M7260 Data Paths board
Ah, I'm glad someone found all that stuff I wrote up there useful. As I _think_ I got it all transcribed correctly, but
do be on the lookout
for
errors!
I most certainly did - thank you
for creating it!
> it seems like an older/newer
combination, but maybe that was
common. I
> would not have guessed that the four
possible combinations would
all
work
together, but maybe they do?
I honestly don't know. As far as I can tell, the DEC documentation even _mention_ the two different board
generations; perhaps a sign that
they
are functionally interchangeable? (Although even
the section on baud
rate, in
both DEC-11-HKDBB-A-D and EK-KD11B-MM-001, 4.11,
doesn't even mention the
early board. So maybe the manual just ignores the earlier version
completely?)
I don't have an /05 up and running at the moment, or I'd check all 4 and
see
if they all work.
> Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other
times
it does
not.
What are the failure symptoms? (It's almost certainly going to take a to fix it; I expect you have one?)
I have
KM11s, a scope, a logic analyzer, a unibone, shiresoft unibus
analyzer, etc.
No shortage of gear, just a shortage of time.
I'd start by monitoring the CPU clock, and
make sure it's running when
the
failure happens. (Note that the front console is
handled by the
microcode, so
if the microcode isn't running, the machine
will be totally dead.
EK-KD11B-MM-001 has a good description of how that works.)
I think I checked the
clock when I started this project a while back, but
I will
check it again. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to provoke two
states,
but it mostly picks the completely dysfunctional state, so I'll look at
the clock.
my
initial messing with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the
microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, but when two
KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly
together. Is this expected or do I have an issue there too?
Not sure. EK-KD11B-MM-001 (available at:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/EK-KD11B-MM-001_Jan75.pdf
and definitely something you need) says, at pg. 5-6 "KM11 switches have same function in slots KM-1 and KM-2", and
on 5-7 "permits the user who
has
only one KM11 to plug into either KM-1 or
KM-2".
So that _sounds_ like you should be able to plug two in together. The
first
indicates that the switches, the only input to
the KD11-B from the KM11,
are
wired in parallel, and the only other thing on
the KM11 are the lights,
outputs. And why mention "user who has only one KM11", if having two is
no
use because one can't use two at once?
I've read that doc, but did not come away with the impression that both
can be used at the same time or not.
12:16 p.m.
On 6/15/21 2:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 10:34 PM Tom Uban via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
On 6/14/21 3:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
Interesting! From your pic, you have the M7260 without the circular baud rate
selector switch, but I
cannot tell which M7261 board you have.
Does the machine come up and run normally with the boards in and the switches all the
disabled
positions or do you have to do a special sequence to start?
I will have to look at the schematics to see how the two slots connect to the processor on
each of
the board versions and maybe also take a look at Guy's KL11 schematic if it is on his
site.
--tnx
--tom
? ? ?> From: Tom Uban
? ? ?> it has the early version M7261E Control Logic & Microprogram board and
? ? ?> the later version M7260 Data Paths board
Ah, I'm glad someone found all that stuff I wrote up there useful. As always,
I _think_ I got it all transcribed correctly, but do be on the lookout for
errors!
I most certainly did - thank you for creating it!
? ? ?> it seems like an older/newer
combination, but maybe that was common. I
? ? ?> would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all
? ? ?> work together, but maybe they do?
I honestly don't know. As far as I can tell, the DEC documentation doesn't
even _mention_ the two different board generations; perhaps a sign that they
are functionally interchangeable? (Although even the section on baud rate, in
both DEC-11-HKDBB-A-D and EK-KD11B-MM-001, 4.11, doesn't even mention the
early board. So maybe the manual just ignores the earlier version completely?)
I don't have an /05 up and running at the moment, or I'd check all 4 and see
if they all work.
? ? ?> Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other times
? ? ?> it does not.
What are the failure symptoms? (It's almost certainly going to take a 'scope
to fix it; I expect you have one?)
I have KM11s, a scope, a logic analyzer, a
unibone, shiresoft unibus analyzer, etc.
No shortage of gear, just a shortage of time.
I'd start by monitoring the CPU clock, and
make sure it's running when the
failure happens. (Note that the front console is handled by the microcode, so
if the microcode isn't running, the machine will be totally dead.
EK-KD11B-MM-001 has a good description of how that works.)
I think I checked
the clock when I started this project a while back, but I will
check it again. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to provoke two states,
but it mostly picks the completely dysfunctional state, so I'll look at the
clock.
? ? ?> my initial messing with KM11 boards,
reveals that I can step the
? ? ?> microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, but when two
? ? ?> KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly
? ? ?> together. Is this expected or do I have an issue there too?
Not sure. EK-KD11B-MM-001 (available at:
? ?http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/EK-KD11B-MM-001_Jan75.pdf
<http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/EK-KD11B-MM-001_Jan75.pdf>
and definitely something you need) says, at pg. 5-6 "KM11 switches have the
same function in slots KM-1 and KM-2", and on 5-7 "permits the user who has
only one KM11 to plug into either KM-1 or KM-2".
So that _sounds_ like you should be able to plug two in together. The first
indicates that the switches, the only input to the KD11-B from the KM11, are
wired in parallel, and the only other thing on the KM11 are the lights,
outputs. And why mention "user who has only one KM11", if having two is no
use because one can't use two at once?
I've read that doc, but did not
come away with the impression that both
can be used at the same time or not.
Just to provide some real-world data, I used a pair of KM11's to debug my 11/05, see
the picture here:
http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1105-debug.jpg
<http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1105-debug.jpg>
They worked fine.? (These are clones, from Guy Sotomayor's kit.)? I can verify
tonight whether I
have the earlier or later rev CPU set, if that helps.
- Josh
2:41 p.m.
On 6/15/21 12:16 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote:
On 6/15/21 2:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
The schematic should be in the user's manual for the KM11.
--
TTFN - Guy
Just to provide some real-world data, I used a
pair of KM11's to debug my 11/05, see the picture here:
http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1105-debug.jpg
<http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1105-debug.jpg>
They worked fine.? (These are clones, from Guy Sotomayor's kit.)? I can verify
tonight whether I
have the earlier or later rev CPU set, if that helps.
- Josh
Interesting! From your pic, you have the M7260 without the circular baud rate
selector switch, but I
cannot tell which M7261 board you have.
Does the machine come up and run normally with the boards in and the switches all the
disabled
positions or do you have to do a special sequence to start?
I will have to look at the schematics to see how the two slots connect to the processor
on each of
the board versions and maybe also take a look at Guy's KL11 schematic if it is on his
site.
16 Jun
16 Jun
2 p.m.
New subject: DEC IC databook?
I was hoping to find DEC under components on bitsavers.org so that I could
lookup some unknown to me DEC ICs (e.g. 8266, 8838, 9602). Is there a
reference out there?
--tnx
--tom
2:19 p.m.
New subject: DEC IC databook?
On 6/16/21 4:00 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote:
I was hoping to find DEC under components on
bitsavers.org so that I could
lookup some unknown to me DEC ICs (e.g. 8266, 8838, 9602). Is there a
reference out there?
--tnx
--tom
The DS8838 is a standard National Semi part.? The 9602 was a
standard Signetics part.
I didn't find a reference to the 8266.
Jon
1285
days inactive
1287
days old
11 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
ard.p850ug1＠gmail.com -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
derschjo＠gmail.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
tom＠figureeightbrewing.com