1 Jun
2012
1 Jun
'12
10:29 p.m.
In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette
card on ebay. See item number 160810171525.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
1 Jun
1 Jun
10:36 p.m.
35k ? wow
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>wrote:
In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette
card on ebay. See item number 160810171525.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
10:56 p.m.
I was asked by Pat Terrell to evaluate an apple 1 at the Byte shop in
Portland back in 1976. I told him I couldn't see anyone
that knew anything about micros buying an overpriced, single board toy
when S100 machines were so superior.
I wish I had taken it in trade for the Basic programming class I
instructed. Doh!
Adrian Stoness wrote:
35k ? wow
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David Griffith<dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>wrote:
In case anyone's interested, someone just
listed an Apple I with cassette
card on ebay. See item number 160810171525.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
11:13 p.m.
Or you could buy this one for $180,000 .
http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscript…
On 6/1/2012 7:36 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
35k ? wow
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David Griffith<dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>wrote:
> In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette
> card on ebay. See item number 160810171525.
>
> --
> David Griffith
> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
>
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>
11:51 p.m.
As far as I know the Apple I is the most expensive collectable computer,
whats next on the list?
----- Original Message -----
From: "mc68010" <mc68010 at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay
Or you could buy this one for $180,000 .
2 Jun
2 Jun
6:28 a.m.
TeoZ wrote:
As far as I know the Apple I is the most expensive
collectable
computer, whats next on the list?
There are a lot of computers that might sell for more, if they were
offered for sale. A privately-funded museum recently acquired an IBM
360/40 and a DEC KI10. While as far as I know the terms of the sales
are not public, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they sold for
well over the going price of an Apple I.
1 Jun
1 Jun
11:54 p.m.
Another overhyped, and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overpriced sotheby's
auction... they tried to sell some old Atari art 6-7 years back, the
stuff was yellowed, faded and damaged due to poor handling and storage,
I think they were shooting for $120-$150k, the top bid was like $17k or
so, in the end the seller who hauled the hundreds of pounds of stuff
from CA to NY didn't sell, and then still have to
pay all of the
sotheby's fee's, what a screwed up deal.
mc68010 wrote:
Or you could buy this one for $180,000 .
http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscript…
On 6/1/2012 7:36 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
35k ? wow
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David
Griffith<dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>wrote:
> In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with
> cassette
> card on ebay. See item number 160810171525.
>
> --
> David Griffith
> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
>
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>
11:51 p.m.
$500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo to
someones house?!?!?
$35K starting bid too???
Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on whats
included? $35k is being a bit much, imho
Curt
David Griffith wrote:
In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with
cassette card on ebay. See item number 160810171525.
2 Jun
2 Jun
12:01 a.m.
On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
$500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive
it in a limo to
someones house?!?!?
$35K starting bid too???
Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on
whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho
Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k last
year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go for
120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this week. Too
many people with more money than they know what to do with in this
world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many people's whole life.
12:48 a.m.
I don't know, yeah maybe Zuckerberg will bid on it while he still has
some cash left from the IPO before the stock tanks another $12 more and
it ends up by the end of June on the penny stock listings....
mc68010 wrote:
On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
$500 shipping, is the seller going to personally
drive it in a limo
to someones house?!?!?
$35K starting bid too???
Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on
whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho
Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k
last year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go
for 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this
week. Too many people with more money than they know what to do with
in this world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many
people's whole life.
1:25 a.m.
I was asked by Pat Terrell to evaluate an apple 1 at the Byte shop in
Portland back in 1976. I told him I couldn't see anyone that knew
anything about micros buying an overpriced, single board toy when S100
machines were so superior.
Later, A long haired mountain-man Paul Lutus showed up at the Byte
shop in Beaverton trying to sell Paul Terrell on the Apple 2 he
carried in a backpack. He demonstrated his 3D wireframe drawing
package without much impression on Pat. Byte shop decided to not carry
apple.
On 6/1/12, Curt @ Atari Museum <curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote:
I don't know, yeah maybe Zuckerberg will bid on it
while he still has
some cash left from the IPO before the stock tanks another $12 more and
it ends up by the end of June on the penny stock listings....
mc68010 wrote:
On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
$500 shipping, is the seller going to personally
drive it in a limo
to someones house?!?!?
$35K starting bid too???
Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on
whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho
Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k
last year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go
for 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this
week. Too many people with more money than they know what to do with
in this world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many
people's whole life.
9:19 a.m.
New subject: *uckerberg - Re: Apple I on Ebay
On 02/06/12 12:48 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
I don't know, yeah maybe Zuckerberg will bid on it
while he still has
some cash left from the IPO before the stock tanks another $12 more and
it ends up by the end of June on the penny stock listings....
The size of his holding is such that even as a penny stock he'd be worth
millions.
--Toby
mc68010 wrote:
On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
$500 shipping, is the seller going to personally
drive it in a limo
to someones house?!?!?
$35K starting bid too???
Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on
whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho
Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k
last year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go
for 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this week.
Too many people with more money than they know what to do with in this
world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many people's whole
life.
10:05 a.m.
From: mc68010 at gmail.com
On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Hi
That one at Sotheby's was complete with quite a bit of manuals and paperwork.
Anything with less is going to be quite a bit less in value. I'd be surprised
to see, a board only, go for much over $100K.
I understand to one at Sotheby now has some of the paper work.
Dwight
$500 shipping, is the seller going to personally
drive it in a limo to
someones house?!?!?
$35K starting bid too???
Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on
whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho
Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k last
year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go for
120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this week. Too
many people with more money than they know what to do with in this
world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many people's whole life. 
10:25 a.m.
?That one at Sotheby's was complete with quite a
bit of manuals and paperwork.
Anything with less is going to be quite a bit less in value. I'd be surprised
to see, a board only, go for much over $100K.
I understand to one at Sotheby now has some of the paper work.
More importantly, the one at Sotheby's has provenance from Sotheby's.
--
Will
6:33 p.m.
The last one sold by this vendor is here:
Apple 1 - The ORIGINAL Apple Computer (#160413355114) US $42,766.00
Buyer: Member id randomz3 Mar-30-10 20:16
He also is selling an Imsai purported to be one used early on for
internal work free of timeshare work if you look at the other auctions.
You can get his whole history from his 45 feedback score link, seems to
have sold a lot of artifacts, and some junk.
I Don't know what Sotheby's brings to the table as far as their
provenance, they know 200 million paintings, but most of the time when I
hear their "experts" on things like this (other than maybe specifically
the Apple 1 now) they sound clueless.
This one comes with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1,
who do you want to certify it? A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve?
For most items computer if they were worth serious money and really
needed such I'd far rather post here and invite your opinion than an
auction houses. They only have credibility based on their track record,
and overpricing and getting $100k for one Apple 1 isn't a real track record.
Jim
On 6/2/2012 7:25 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
That one at
Sotheby's was complete with quite a bit of manuals and paperwork.
Anything with less is going to be quite a bit less in value. I'd be surprised
to see, a board only, go for much over $100K.
I understand to one at Sotheby now has some of the paper work.
More importantly,
the one at Sotheby's has provenance from Sotheby's.
--
Will
6:58 p.m.
On 2 Jun 2012 at 15:33, jim s wrote:
For most items computer if they were worth serious
money and really
needed such I'd far rather post here and invite your opinion than an
auction houses. They only have credibility based on their track
record, and overpricing and getting $100k for one Apple 1 isn't a real
track record.
As people-with-too-much-money have pretty much over-inflated the art
world, I think some are looking to diversify. Still, compared to an
Edvard Munch painting, $35K is small potatoes.
However, not completely outside the realm of attraction for some
counterfeiters to work up. How would one know? Carbon-14 date the
solder mask?
--Chuck
9:02 p.m.
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:33:08 -0700
From: jws at jwsss.com
To:
Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay
The last one sold by this vendor is here:
Apple 1 - The ORIGINAL Apple Computer (#160413355114) US $42,766.00
Buyer: Member id randomz3 Mar-30-10 20:16
He also is selling an Imsai purported to be one used early on for
internal work free of timeshare work if you look at the other auctions.
You can get his whole history from his 45 feedback score link, seems to
have sold a lot of artifacts, and some junk.
---snip---
The IMSAI has an interesting artical attached to the sale
on ebay that is worth reading. I consider the story
to be worth more that some IMSAI. Of course, it includes
some floppies but makes no claims as to what they contain.
If it contained some of the original works at Apply, they
may have more value than the IMSAI as well.
Dwight
9:58 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay
The art world took ages to come up with ways to detect forgeries and many of
those use high tech science not just somebody's visual "looks good" ok. And
we still have forgeries going for millions of dollars and those do pass
through the major auction houses.
Anybody can get a list of Apple I's lost to the world and make up another
with a custom made circuit board, chips with the correct date code, some
aging, and a good story. Its not worth cloning a C64 worth $20 but if Apple
I's keep selling for $100K it will be worth the effort.
This one comes
with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1,
who
do you want to certify it? A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve?
That schmuck from Sotheby's would likely go to Steve and have it
authenticated. That is what they are paid to do.
--
Will
10:16 p.m.
The art world took ages to come up with ways to detect
forgeries and many of
those use high tech science not just somebody's visual "looks good" ok.
And
we still have forgeries going for millions of dollars and those do pass
through the major auction houses.
Yes, this happens, but very rarely. The auction houses are *always*
rejecting questionable items - forgeries, copies, and everything else.
It would not surprise me if Sotheby's rejects 99 out of 100 Picassos
as fakes or copies, even though original Picassos are actually pretty
common.
Anybody can get a list of Apple I's lost to the
world and make up another
with a custom made circuit board, chips with the correct date code, some
aging, and a good story. Its not worth cloning a C64 worth $20 but if Apple
I's keep selling for $100K it will be worth the effort.
Forging an Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult.
All it takes is one minor mistake.
--
Will
10:49 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay
Forging an Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult.
All it takes is one minor mistake.
--
Will
There are pictures, part lists, etc out there for what are basically simple
make it in your garage type stuff. The early software collectors (old games)
have issues with people making fakes for items that sell for only hundreds
of dollars. I can't think of ANY hobby where fakes didn't come out when
items started to be worth some money (stamps, coins, baseball cards, etc).
11:36 p.m.
There are pictures, part lists, etc out there for what
are basically simple
make it in your garage type stuff.
Please realize that when you are dealing with Apple 1 "level"
artifacts, the fakes have to be *perfect*. Perfect enough to undergo
scrutiny under a series of lab grade tests and expert eyeballs.
--
Will
3 Jun
3 Jun
12:47 p.m.
On Sat, 2 Jun 2012, William Donzelli wrote:
Please realize that when you are dealing with Apple 1
"level"
artifacts, the fakes have to be *perfect*. Perfect enough to undergo
scrutiny under a series of lab grade tests and expert eyeballs.
. . . such as paint on the right date codes on top AND bottom of ALL the
chips, and don't use RoHS solder?
12:44 p.m.
On 3 Jun 2012 at 9:25, Fred Cisin wrote:
At this point, I have to ask myself this: "What's the practical
difference between a "genuine" Apple I and one constructed from old
parts (even old PCB)?"
In other words, what TANGIBLE difference is there?
I think that this is a valid question for the scientifically-minded.
While someone may insist that it's not possible to make a perfect
copy of the Mona Lisa, it's certainly not outside the realm of
possibility to make a perfect copy of an old computer.
--Chuck
Forging an
Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult.
All it takes is one minor mistake.
Quite difficult, indeed!
The real Apple 1 didn't have ANY USB ports!
And, it didn't use ANY microcontrollers!
1:05 p.m.
At this point, I have to ask myself this:
?"What's the practical
difference between a "genuine" Apple I and one constructed from old
parts (even old PCB)?"
In other words, what TANGIBLE difference is there?
I think that this is a valid question for the scientifically-minded.
Put some of the solder and/or traces under a microscope - the
oxidation will be different.
--
Will
1:37 p.m.
On 3 Jun 2012 at 13:05, William Donzelli wrote:
Put some of the solder and/or traces under a
microscope - the
oxidation will be different.
And that matters--how? I'd think that oxidation would be highly
variable depending on storage conditions.
I have a tuba and tried to sell it for a time and got almost no
interest. After I turned up a photo of Arnold Jacobs (late of the
Chicago Symphony) playing it, there was a flood of interest.
Mind you, the tuba hadn't changed.
Is this some sort of superstition wherein the ghost of someone
inhabits it, thereby rendering it more valuable?
I just don't get it. How, objectively, is a coffee cup that Steve
Jobs once drank out of any different from a coffee cup from the same
manufacturer's lot?
--Chuck
1:57 p.m.
And that matters--how? ?I'd think that oxidation
would be highly
variable depending on storage conditions.
When the original Apple 1 boards were stuffed, the chips were new, or
maybe at most just a few years old. The solder wetted the pins nicely,
and all is fine. The pin/solder interface ages just as it should - a
well known process. Then, 35 years later, some guy wants to fake an
Apple 1. Sure, with work, he can find all original chips with proper
date codes and everything, but the pins will have had many years to
age. If he does not clean up the pins, the solder joints will be
suboptimal*, and will be noticed during the authentication process. If
he does clean up the pins, he likely will not be able to match to what
the oxidation should be, either by overcleaning or undercleaning (or
etches, or scratches, or pitting, or a million other effects), and
this will be noticed during the authentication process. That
authenication process, with all those fancy microscopes and such, can
be a real bitch.
*This is why chips, especially surface mount parts, have shelf lives,
and real manufacturers generally do not like to use parts that are
over a couple years old.
--
Will
2:12 p.m.
On 6/3/12 10:57 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
If he does not clean up the pins, the solder joints
will be
suboptimal
All of the ICs are socketed using TI sockets. You aren't going to get the oxidation
to match at the point where the IC sticks out of the socket. You aren't very likely
to
find the right solder mask, or get it to exactly match the machines that can easily be
examined at CHM. I have actually compared the two we currently have, and it would be
easy to detect a forged third board.
2:18 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay
Sure, with work, he can find all original chips with proper
date codes and everything, but the pins will have had
many years to
age. If he does not clean up the pins, the solder joints will be
suboptimal*, and will be noticed during the authentication process. > Will
Suboptimal for a device that is not expected to even be powered on let alone
used enough for early failure?
These boards were hand soldered to begin with, you have to master the makers
(woz) soldering style and then chemically age the solder without affecting
anything else.
2:12 p.m.
> Put some of the solder and/or traces under a
microscope - the
> oxidation will be different.
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
And that matters--how? I'd think that oxidation
would be highly
variable depending on storage conditions.
. . . and, if it had ever been repaired?
Could THAT aging be accelerated by humid oxygen enhanced storage?
Is this some sort of superstition wherein the ghost of
someone
inhabits it, thereby rendering it more valuable?
Maybe by the bits that were left behind?
You and I might not be impressed by "George Washington's Shoe-Horn!",
but some people are.
4 Jun
4 Jun
1:35 p.m.
On 6/3/12 12:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I have a tuba and tried to sell it for a time and got
almost no
interest. After I turned up a photo of Arnold Jacobs (late of the
Chicago Symphony) playing it, there was a flood of interest.
Mind you, the tuba hadn't changed.
Devil's Advocate:
No, but if I wanted a really good tuba and believed that individual
instruments vary in quality, even in the same model and lot, then the
fact that Mr. Jacobs found it good would carry considerable weight.
Truth:
I don't get the "star factor" at all, but it's a bankable reality.
Just consider the huge market for adult film actress's used underwear.
Or don't....
Doc
3 Jun
3 Jun
9:42 a.m.
From: teoz at neo.rr.com
---snip---
Anybody can get a list of Apple I's lost to the world and make up another
with a custom made circuit board, chips with the correct date code, some
aging, and a good story. Its not worth cloning a C64 worth $20 but if Apple
I's keep selling for $100K it will be worth the effort.
One of the problems is ebay. A person could use photos of a real
Apple I and sneek in a Replica I in its place.
Many buyers wouldn't realize the switch until they'd had the unit
for a few days. By that time, the seller could be long gone.
A couple years back, one of the ebay sleezes tried to pass
what he knew was a Replica I off as a real Apple I. He knew this
because he'd scrapped the words Replica I off the board himself.
He'd bought the board about a month earlier, under a different
name. What he didn't realize was that he'd tried to sell his car
under both names and there was the same picture.
He had a number of stories as to how he came on the board.
In one case, he claimed the it was an estate sale. Then he
claimed he'd got it from his brother.
I'd written him several notes explaining to him that fraud
over $10 was probably prison time in his state. He later toned
down his sale and said that it had been identified by others that
it was not an original but it may be a replica. Still, someone payed several
thousand dollars for it but I most likely saved his ass.
I doubt he'd thank me though.
Dwight
2 Jun
2 Jun
11:29 p.m.
I think this guy did as good a job and doesn't owe the amount that
Sotheby's charges. In the computer area they don't have experts I'd pay
their buyer's premium to have. My point is I'd rather have someone
hunted down either here or thru contacts here explaining the provenance
than them.
If they do it and say they did I just don't see why that makes it any
better. If they handled the volume of collectable computers to have
people on staff who are as knowledgeable as this group that would be one
thing, but there is not.
i'd go to one of the computer museum people here, for instance or a
serious collector such as you and line up the experts and document it.
If Sotheby's starts to demonstrate they can regularly deliver the market
to support $100k apple 1's then they deserve the business. but a guy
like the one with the current listing is doing a pretty good job on his
own and Ebay is finding the market. It would be interesting to see if
he had any dealings with the auction houses before doing either the
previous one or this one. I'll send a question to see if they answer.
Jim
On 6/2/2012 6:15 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
This one comes
with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1, who
do you want to certify it? A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve?
That schmuck from
Sotheby's would likely go to Steve and have it
authenticated. That is what they are paid to do.
--
Will
11:48 p.m.
It could be that Sotheby's has gotten bitten by the old computer bug.
They called a couple of weeks ago asking for some quotes on floppy
data recovery...
--Chuck
11:51 p.m.
I think this guy did as good a job and doesn't owe
the amount that Sotheby's
charges. ?In the computer area they don't have experts I'd pay their buyer's
premium to have.
But they do have experts in other areas of antique technology, such as
scientific instruments, guns, and clocks - the basic ideas of the
history are the same. And these experts are very well aware that they
should seek and find experts if they can not find ones in house.
?My point is I'd rather have someone hunted down
either
here or thru contacts here explaining the provenance than them.
Sure, you would rather do it that way, but the fact remains that there
is a gulf of difference between provenance an individual can establish
and provenance a big auction house establishes.
If they do it and say they did I just don't see
why that makes it any
better. ?If they handled the volume of collectable computers to have people
on staff who are as knowledgeable as this group that would be one thing, but
there is not.
This mostly does not matter. The people with the money put a lot of
weight on the value of big auction house provenance. That provenance
is as good as gold.
i'd go to one of the computer museum people here,
for instance or a serious
collector such as you and line up the experts and document it.
And this is what the people at the auction houses do - they realize
that they are not experts of everything, an will reach out to get the
information they need. Even the people at Antiques Roadshow do this.
If Sotheby's starts to demonstrate they can
regularly deliver the market to
support $100k apple 1's then they deserve the business. ?but a guy like the
one with the current listing is doing a pretty good job on his own and Ebay
is finding the market.
I do not deny this. I wish him the best of luck.
--
Will
2:31 a.m.
$500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive
it in a limo to
someones house?!?!?
No, no, silly, that was the Twentieth Anniversary Macintosh.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S Truman ---------------
4431
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aek＠bitsavers.org -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
doc＠vaxen.net -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
jim.p.davis＠gmail.com -
jimpdavis＠gorge.net -
jws＠jwsss.com -
mc68010＠gmail.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
tdk.knight＠gmail.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com