27 Dec
2019
27 Dec
'19
7:55 a.m.
Gentlepeople,
I'm doing some work with my Pro 380 over the holidays, but have run into a snag
because both my LK201 keyboards are dead. They fail poweron self test -- LEDs stay on and
no response to any keypresses.
The odd thing is that the circuit board itself seems ok; I had a spare board that tests
fine by itself, so I installed it as a replacement control board on one of those keyboards
and now it fails. So that suggests there's something wrong with the key array that
breaks selftest.
I don't understand that because the documentation says a stuck key would produce a
selftest pass along with an indication reporting stuck key. And while I know LK201
keyboards don't like spilled liquids, one of those keyboards definitely hasn't
been abused that way and I don't see signs the other one has, either. So having both
fail the same way is puzzling.
Any ideas?
I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly simple bit
of Arduino code.
paul
27 Dec
27 Dec
10:46 a.m.
Paul Koning wrote:
Gentlepeople,
I'm doing some work with my Pro 380 over the holidays, but have run into a
snag because both my LK201 keyboards are dead. They fail poweron self test
-- LEDs stay on and no response to any keypresses.
The odd thing is that the circuit board itself seems ok; I had a spare board
that tests fine by itself, so I installed it as a replacement control board
on one of those keyboards and now it fails. So that suggests there's
something wrong with the key array that breaks selftest.
I don't understand that because the documentation says a stuck key would
produce a selftest pass along with an indication reporting stuck key. And
while I know LK201 keyboards don't like spilled liquids, one of those
keyboards definitely hasn't been abused that way and I don't see signs the
other one has, either. So having both fail the same way is puzzling.
Any ideas?
I wonder what happens if several keys are stuck/shorted?
It might also be good to check if the microprocessor (8051?) is running.
(I've got at least two or three LK201 keyboards that are all acting
erratically :-( I'm not sure I have any good ones left.)
I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly
simple bit of Arduino code.
Supplies of good non-USB PC keyboards are probably beginning to get harder
to find now too...
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
11:38 a.m.
On Dec 27, 2019, at 1:46 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Paul Koning wrote:
True. It could use either kind of keyboard. Also, USB to mini-DIN adapters are still
sold ($5 in the current L-Com catalog). That seems like a cheaper solution than a USB
Host shield.
paul
...
I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly
simple bit of Arduino code.
Supplies of good non-USB PC keyboards are probably beginning to get harder
to find now too... 
12:10 p.m.
Supplies of
good non-USB PC keyboards are probably beginning to get harder
to find now too...
True. It could use either kind of keyboard. Also, USB to mini-DIN adapters are still
sold ($5 in the current L-Com catalog). That seems like a cheaper solution than a USB
Host shield.
5:46 p.m.
On Dec 27, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
If you mean one of these, they are just passive adapters that only
work if the USB keyboard (or mouse) is capable of supporting both USB
and PS/2 interfaces.
http://www.l-com.com/usb-usb-adapter-type-a-female-mini-din-6-male
I imagine the majority of cheap disposable keyboards manufactured now
are USB only devices, not combination USB - PS/2 compatible devices
I can get one and test it with an Apple keyboard, but that doesn't sound right. There
aren't enough wires on a USB connector to allow you to speak the PS/2 protocol. And
there are PS/2 to USB adapters (for old keyboards) that are the same size; clearly the old
keyboards don't speak USB. So I have to assume both of those devices have a bit of
logic inside. A simple USB chip easily fits, consider the FTDI USB UART devices that are
just tiny chips encapsulated in the USB connector.
paul
Supplies
of good non-USB PC keyboards are probably beginning to get harder
to find now too...
True. It could use either kind of keyboard. Also, USB to mini-DIN adapters are still
sold ($5 in the current L-Com catalog). That seems like a cheaper solution than a USB
Host shield.
6:58 p.m.
There aren't enough wires on a USB connector to
allow you to speak the PS/2 protocol.
How many wires are necessary to speak the PS/2 protocol? How many pins
are there on a USB connector?
In front of me right now I have a Microsoft IntelliMouse Explorer USB
and PS/2 Compatible mouse, and a Cherry G84-4100PTAUS compact
keyboard, which both have USB plugs on their cables and both work with
passive USB to PS/2 adapter plugs.
28 Dec
28 Dec
2:25 a.m.
On 28/12/2019 01:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I can get one and test it with an Apple keyboard, but
that doesn't sound right. There aren't enough wires on a USB connector to allow
you to speak the PS/2 protocol. And there are PS/2 to USB adapters (for old keyboards)
that are the same size; clearly the old keyboards don't speak USB.
Enough wires? +5V, ground, clock, data vs +5V, ground, D+, D-
Those old adapters are definitely just passive wiring, and were commonly
supplied with dual-standard mice. That's why they're green. I worked
in the IT department of a large university and it caused a lot of
confusion back in the day when they were common, when people expected
them to convert any keyboard or mouse to PS/2, and found they didn't.
They only work with devices that inherently support both protocols.
--
Pete
Pete Turnbull
8:27 a.m.
On Dec 28, 2019, at 5:25 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 28/12/2019 01:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Ok, it sounds like I jumped to conclusions on insufficient data. It sure is amazing to
speak two so unrelated protocols on the same wires and somehow make it work.
paul
I can get one and test it with an Apple keyboard,
but that doesn't sound right. There aren't enough wires on a USB connector to
allow you to speak the PS/2 protocol. And there are PS/2 to USB adapters (for old
keyboards) that are the same size; clearly the old keyboards don't speak USB.
Enough wires? +5V, ground, clock, data vs +5V, ground, D+, D-
Those old adapters are definitely just passive wiring, and were commonly supplied with
dual-standard mice. That's why they're green. I worked in the IT department of a
large university and it caused a lot of confusion back in the day when they were common,
when people expected them to convert any keyboard or mouse to PS/2, and found they
didn't. They only work with devices that inherently support both protocols. 
9:04 a.m.
On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 5:39 AM Pete Turnbull via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Those old adapters are definitely just passive wiring,
and were commonly
supplied with dual-standard mice. That's why they're green.
I have green ones for mice, and purple ones for keyboards (same
signals on USB side, different pins on PS/2 side).
They only work with devices that inherently support
both protocols.
Yep. I don't even know which of my keyboards work with the adapter,
but I should probably test a few and mark them and set them aside for
90s machines/projects (like Amiga PS/2 keyboard adapters which were
popular at one point because of the scarcity and cost of genuine Amiga
keyboards).
-ethan
27 Dec
27 Dec
12:23 p.m.
On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 02:38:33PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
It should work in theory. In practice, I have bought me some
keyboards:
- Genesis Thor 300 TKL Blue - the cheapest mech I could find and my
first mech, BTW
- Genesis Rhod 110 - so called "gaming keyboard"
Both are usb keyboards. I would like to use them as ps/2, including
going through two adapters in serial (usb->ps/2, ps/2->usb, and this
stuck into usb port of my desktop). Why so strangely, well, when I
connect keyboard, I would like it to behave like a keyboard, not some
kind of a hub. So serially connected adaoters are perhaps the cheapest
way I can enforce my way.
Back to subject. It appears that Thor does not implelement ps/2 on
itself, which means I could not connect it as ps/2 keyboard. Rhod
implements, so when connected to the same adapter(s) it showed up in
my logs as a proper kb. Of course, when I plug Thor straight into usb
of my desktop, it shows up in the logs, too. But this is not how I
want to boot my computer.
In a future, I would expect keyboards to drop ps/2 part of their
personality, in which case cheap adapters will not help. What would be
required, I think, is something with full usb host on one end and din
plug on the other, with software translating between the two. Cheap
usb kbds are probably on the other side already, while "gamer" kbds I
would expect to hold on for a bit longer. Quite a few players are
naysayers and claim usb kbds are too slow to play, so they only can
play on ps/2 kbds, connected to ps/2 socket. Thanks God for first
person shooters, but this will only last as long as there are gaming
'puters with ps/2 onboard.
So, now a good question is, are there any usb->ps/2 adapters which
have usb host on them? Sure, they will cost more than simple electric
switch kind of adapter, but if not very costly then I might prefer
those to building one myself (which would take me a loooong time,
given current experience).
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
On Dec 27, 2019, at 1:46 PM, Peter Coghlan via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Paul Koning wrote:
True. It could use either kind of keyboard. Also, USB to mini-DIN
adapters are still sold ($5 in the current L-Com catalog). That
seems like a cheaper solution than a USB Host shield. ...
I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly
simple bit of Arduino code.
Supplies of good non-USB PC keyboards are probably beginning to get harder
to find now too... 
4:43 p.m.
Do you have a known good cable you can swap out?
On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 9:56 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Gentlepeople,
I'm doing some work with my Pro 380 over the holidays, but have run into a
snag because both my LK201 keyboards are dead. They fail poweron self test
-- LEDs stay on and no response to any keypresses.
The odd thing is that the circuit board itself seems ok; I had a spare
board that tests fine by itself, so I installed it as a replacement control
board on one of those keyboards and now it fails. So that suggests there's
something wrong with the key array that breaks selftest.
I don't understand that because the documentation says a stuck key would
produce a selftest pass along with an indication reporting stuck key. And
while I know LK201 keyboards don't like spilled liquids, one of those
keyboards definitely hasn't been abused that way and I don't see signs the
other one has, either. So having both fail the same way is puzzling.
Any ideas?
I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly
simple bit of Arduino code.
paul
5:42 p.m.
Yes, but given that the control PCB worked properly by itself, and stopped working when
attached to the key array, it doesn't seem to be a cable issue.
paul
On Dec 27, 2019, at 7:43 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec
at gmail.com> wrote:
Do you have a known good cable you can swap out?
On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 9:56 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
Gentlepeople,
I'm doing some work with my Pro 380 over the holidays, but have run into a snag
because both my LK201 keyboards are dead. They fail poweron self test -- LEDs stay on and
no response to any keypresses.
The odd thing is that the circuit board itself seems ok; I had a spare board that tests
fine by itself, so I installed it as a replacement control board on one of those keyboards
and now it fails. So that suggests there's something wrong with the key array that
breaks selftest.
I don't understand that because the documentation says a stuck key would produce a
selftest pass along with an indication reporting stuck key. And while I know LK201
keyboards don't like spilled liquids, one of those keyboards definitely hasn't
been abused that way and I don't see signs the other one has, either. So having both
fail the same way is puzzling.
Any ideas?
I'm considering building a PC keyboard LK201 emulation, should be a fairly simple bit
of Arduino code.
paul
1588
days inactive
1589
days old
11 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
cctalk＠beyondthepale.ie -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
pete＠dunnington.plus.com -
rtomek＠ceti.pl -
useddec＠gmail.com