20 Nov
2000
20 Nov
'00
10:17 a.m.
--- Gene Buckle <geneb(a)deltasoft.com> wrote:
I still have one of those huge H???? vampire tap
ethernet trancievers that I
modified for 10Base2 that I can hook up to the DEQNA.
g.
But does anyone out there use Thicknet at home? I have one vampire tap
transceiver (and a bunch of 10Base2). I would love to set up a segment
of 10Base5 just for the historical sake of it all. I suppose I would
need at least one more 10Base5 transceiver to make it worthwhile.
-ethan
=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
The original webpage address is still going away. The
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See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
__________________________________________________
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20 Nov
20 Nov
10:44 a.m.
--- Gene Buckle <geneb(a)deltasoft.com> wrote:
I still have a 10Base2 segment at home, though it connects to the 10BaseT
hub, which in turn is plugged into the 100BaseT switch, which goes to the
100BaseT hub......
Currently my only uses for 10Base2 is my one DECserver 90L+, PowerBook 540c
(which when I find a cheap 10BaseT transciever for will be switched) and my
Amiga 3000 (currently in storage, but hope to move to my new Apartment one of
these days). Until I moved recently the PDP-11/73 had also been on 10Base2.
Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why
would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than
any 10Base5 stuff!
Zane
I still have one of those huge H???? vampire tap
ethernet trancievers that I
modified for 10Base2 that I can hook up to the DEQNA.
g.
But does anyone out there use Thicknet at home? I have one vampire tap
transceiver (and a bunch of 10Base2). I would love to set up a segment
of 10Base5 just for the historical sake of it all. I suppose I would
need at least one more 10Base5 transceiver to make it worthwhile.
-ethan 
11:05 a.m.
On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 01:44:17PM -0800, healyzh(a)aracnet.com wrote:
Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying
to get off 10Base2, why
would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than
any 10Base5 stuff!
Last I checked, 10base2 still has a distance advantage, perhaps enough
to matter for really large buildings.
--
_______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud(a)bigfoot.com
(_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd(a)kb7pwd.ampr.org
__) | | \________________________________________________________________
Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420
21 Nov
21 Nov
8:35 a.m.
Shawn T. Rutledge skrev:
On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 01:44:17PM -0800,
healyzh(a)aracnet.com wrote:
> Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why
> would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than
> any 10Base5 stuff!
Last I checked, 10base2 still has a distance advantage,
perhaps enough
to matter for really large buildings.
I think it has some layout advantages, too.
My institution at the university still uses thinnet, and after some thought, I
can see why. After all, 10Base2 requires no additional hardware, and just one
cable to be run into each room. Each room has got its own 10Base2 segment
which goes to a central repeater (plugged into a thicknet backbone bridging
the gap to the main complex). Thus, only a central hub is requires, and just
one cable for each room, without there being too many workstations on one
segment for it to make the network vulnerable.
10BaseT may be neater, but also more technically involved.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
S? ja. Forts?tt bara som du g?r s? kommer du i s?kerhet, och raka dig n?r du
kommer hem s? ser du kanske inte ut som en apa. Du kan ju leva ett ombonat
liv, t?lja tr?gubbar eller n?t s?nt.
Lupin III till Jigen, Lupin den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen),
TMS 1978
20 Nov
20 Nov
11:54 a.m.
Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying
to get off 10Base2, why
would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than
any 10Base5 stuff!
Ah, but just think about the _nostalgia_ of having something or other, even
if it is a low-end system, communicating with the world on thick net. Then
you could say you have all of the major star topologies in your
place. Well, maybe not all of them.
Honestly, I think it'd be tons of fun to run 10bT, 10b2, 10b5, Token ring,
FDDI, LocalTalk, and a whole bunch of other network topologies in my
apartment. Kindof a collection of the networking history as well as
computer history.
I'd be most interested in more info about 10b5 usage.
Tarsi
210
12:13 p.m.
New subject: IMP....
Is Irv Hoff still around? I'd heard rumors of cancer some time ago, but
never heard anything more.
g.
21 Nov
21 Nov
4:06 a.m.
New subject: IMP....
Well, shit. Thanks Don.
g.
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Don Maslin wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote:
Is Irv Hoff still around? I'd heard rumors
of cancer some time ago, but
never heard anything more.
g.
Irv died a number of years back, Gene. My guess is 8-10, but I cannot
prove it at the moment.
- don
20 Nov
20 Nov
12:11 p.m.
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1:22 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
10BaseT needs a hub. This is one more thing to find
space for, one more
thing to have to power, and one more thing that you have to maintain.
Getting spare chips for most hubs is a lot harder than getting spare chips
for 10base2 transceivers.
All non-issues. Small, uses relatively little power, and have you ever
really seen a hub die? I haven't, and I expect the one I'm using now to
last forever.
Adding a machine to a 10BaseT network means running a
cable back to the
hub. Adding a machine to a 10Base2 network can mean just patching it to
the cables on the nearest machine. Yes, the latter does bring the network
down, but with my setup, that's less of a problem than running another
cable.
And making sure you've used the right cable, and making sure you've
crimped the connector probably, and making sure you've observed the
correct distance between nodes :) Sure this gets easy after you've done
it a few times. Also, didn't we argue over this before, and you were
saying how you'd rather solder your connectors rather than crimp RJ-45
connectors? You never did explain how that was easier th :)
The BNC connector is a lot faster to wire than that
darn RJ45,
particularly when you have fiddle about with the wires to get them to the
right contacts. And the solid, metal, BNC connector would seem to be more
reliable than the RJ45 as well.
Oh yes, here we are. Trust me, after having done both many, many, many
times, I prefer the ease of the RJ-45 over the BNC connector any day.
I've ruined far more BNC connectors than I have RJ-45s.
But anyway, it works better for me since I have CAT5 running throughout
the house so I can always have a net connected computer nearby. If all
your machines are in one place, or you have a small server cluster, coax
is a bit more convenient for sure. But I've found that the cables can
become unreliable over time (the BNC connectors get loose if moved around
a lot).
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
6:51 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
Not really. Try finding a spare power outlet in my Computer Room. Go
ahead. My last piece of equipment (Belkin OmniView Pro 8-Port) required a
complete reorganization of the computer room (okay, part of that was power,
the other half locating it such that the cables would run from the console
to it, and from there to each machine).
And yes, I've seen a hub die. Any one want a dead hub?
-spc (Running primarily 10Base2---not all the machines here have
10BaseT connectors)
10BaseT needs a hub. This is one more thing to
find space for, one more
thing to have to power, and one more thing that you have to maintain.
Getting spare chips for most hubs is a lot harder than getting spare chips
for 10base2 transceivers.
All non-issues. Small, uses relatively little power, and have you ever
really seen a hub die? I haven't, and I expect the one I'm using now to
last forever.
8:46 p.m.
On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote:
Not really. Try finding a spare power outlet in my
Computer Room. Go
ahead. My last piece of equipment (Belkin OmniView Pro 8-Port) required a
complete reorganization of the computer room (okay, part of that was power,
the other half locating it such that the cables would run from the console
to it, and from there to each machine).
I personally would not let the silly lack of an outlet cause me to wire
all my machines up using an inferior cabling scheme. But that's just me.
:)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
21 Nov
21 Nov
5:25 a.m.
All
non-issues. Small, uses relatively little power, and have you ever
really seen a hub die? I haven't, and I expect the one I'm using now to
last forever.
Not really. Try finding a spare power outlet in my Computer Room. And yes, I've seen a hub die. Any one want a
dead hub?
-spc (Running primarily 10Base2---not all the machines here have
10BaseT connectors)
Eric (Has far more machines with RJ45 or AUI than with coax connectors.)
8:52 a.m.
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8:14 a.m.
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20 Nov
20 Nov
2:51 p.m.
For older (classic) computers, the bus bandwidth
won't support 100Mbps
ethernet, so you have to go with one of the 10Mbps standards (I'll ignore
the original 3Mbps.. :-)).
I've only found one place where it's a problem so far, with an NE2000 card
in a slow XT compatible the data rate (even at 10 Mbps) was too high for it
it handle without dropping packets. I solved that by getting a 3COM card.
I suppose it's a problem on other machines without buffered receivers.
Then again the bulk of my really slow machines are serial line connected.
10BaseT seems to have advantages when :
The computers are spread out all over the building (which doesn't apply
to my setup, where most of the networkable machines are next to each other)
There are other advantages of 10BaseT over 10Base2.
You can use a switch so you aren't sharing your entire bandwidth
among every machine.
You can go full duplex and avoid collisions.
You can mix 10 and 100 Mbps devices without slowing down the fast devices.
You might not need to rewire for gigabit ethernet.
Your attachment to the rest of the world will probably be RJ45.
Against that :
10BaseT needs a hub. This is one more thing to find space for, one more
thing to have to power, and one more thing that you have to maintain.
Hubs and switches are getting cheap and small. An 8 port switch is about the
size of 8 ports. The only reason to get a big old hub is if you want
vintage ethernet hardware. Fortunately my collecting bug stops at the
network connection.
Adding a machine to a 10BaseT network means running a
cable back to the
hub.
Or adding a hub near the machine. I like a switch on each floor and a hub in
each room.
The BNC connector is a lot faster to wire than that
darn RJ45,
particularly when you have fiddle about with the wires to get them to the
right contacts. And the solid, metal, BNC connector would seem to be more
reliable than the RJ45 as well.
No arguments there.
Another general complaint is that 10BaseT to 10Base2 media converters are
too damn expensive. You can't swing a live cat without hitting a coax
AUI tranciever in a junk bin, but I've never seen 10BaseT-coax converter
that didn't cost $100+.
Eric
3 p.m.
Another general complaint is that 10BaseT to 10Base2
media converters are
too damn expensive. You can't swing a live cat without hitting a coax
AUI tranciever in a junk bin, but I've never seen 10BaseT-coax converter
that didn't cost $100+.
Eric
Well, when I was initially shifting from 10Base2 to 10/100BaseT at home I
bought a 8-Port 10/100 Hub, and a 10BaseT-to-10Base2 converter. Definitly
very expensive. I've since replaced the converter with a 8-port 10BaseT Hub
that has a 10Base2 connector (cost me $5 at a swap meet). Wish I'd just
bought a 10BaseT hub like that one with the 10/100 Hub when I did my initial
switchover.
Zane
21 Nov
21 Nov
8:32 a.m.
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22 Nov
22 Nov
6:14 a.m.
For older (classic) computers, the bus bandwidth
won't support 100Mbps
ethernet, so you have to go with one of the 10Mbps standards (I'll ignore
the original 3Mbps.. :-)).
I've only found one place where it's a problem so far, with an NE2000 card
in a slow XT compatible the data rate (even at 10 Mbps) was too high for it Of course another issue is that some of these machines
have built-in
ethernet interfaces (PERQs do, for example), and there's no way of adding
a 100Mbps card to them.
If you've got 10base2 nothing stops you from connecting it to a 100baseT
network through a repeating hub or switch. There's no need to cripple the
fast machines to support the old machines.
Or because older, larger, hardware is often easier to
maintain. Put it
this way, the DELNI (8 port AUI 'hub') is a lot easier to repair than
most of the 10baseT hubs I've seen. The DELNI is mostly 10K ECL. The
10baseT hub uses a single AMD chip that while standard (I have the
datasheet somewhere), is not easy to get as a 1-off.
But at $80 a new 100 Mbp hub doesn't break the bank. (I also have never had
a hub or switch fail. Except at work a cheap 100 Mbps switch that we were
pumping a continuous 40 Mbps through was getting intermittent failures.
We replaced it with a better one and put the old one on a lower traffic line,
no problems since.)
My guess is that my switches will be replaced by gigabit equivalents before
they fail. My hubs will probably be replaced from surplus stores as people
upgrade their hubs to gigbit.
Another
general complaint is that 10BaseT to 10Base2 media converters are
too damn expensive. You can't swing a live cat without hitting a coax
The media converter has to be a repeater IIRC, and has to correctly
handle collisions on both sides. That makes it more complex than a simple
transceiver. And I guess they're less used than transceivers so there's
less 'economy of scale'.
9:40 a.m.
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1:06 p.m.
Eric J. Korpela skrev:
On a related note, are there standards for wiring an
RJ45 for phone use?
For localtalk? (I would assume that it would be possible to put both
in one.) It would be nice to have the wired such that a misconnection
(ethernet into phone) won't fry anything. It would also be nice to sprinkle
RJ45 sockets around the house and decide what to use them for later.
AFAIK an RJ45 splits into two telephone lines. Thus, it should be very much
possible to connect the phone to one of those lines, and Localtalk to the
other, using PhoneNet transceivers.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
The most useful program will be continually improved until it is useless.
20 Nov
20 Nov
4:19 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
Ah, I've never used anything but 10Base2 at home for stringing wires
throughout the house. :-) ...with the exception of a few close
machines connected to AUI cables and a DELNI-like hub. If I move to
anything else, it will probably be the yellow cable with vampire taps.
Do I have a
point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why
Hmmm... I'm moving towards 10Base2 and away from 10BaseT For older (classic) computers, the bus bandwidth
won't support 100Mbps
ethernet, so you have to go with one of the 10Mbps standards (I'll ignore
the original 3Mbps.. :-)).
...not even for a couple of machines on a subnet just for fun? :-)
--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd(a)perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD
21 Nov
21 Nov
1:27 p.m.
I plan to hang all the DEC machines off DELNIs (real ones :), with a
10baseT/AUI adapter to a 10/100 switch (not hub). That way my PCs can
talk to each other and the outside world at 100MBs, and the VAXes
don't have to listen to them. Why should me VAXes be interrupted by
the constant chatter of WIN98?
clint
PS Actually, I only have a single win 98 machine to run the scanner.
The remaining PCs run FreeBSD!
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, R. D. Davis wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
Ah, I've never used anything but 10Base2 at home for stringing wires
throughout the house. :-) ...with the exception of a few close
machines connected to AUI cables and a DELNI-like hub. If I move to
anything else, it will probably be the yellow cable with vampire taps.
Do I have
a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why
Hmmm... I'm moving towards 10Base2 and away from 10BaseT For older (classic) computers, the bus bandwidth
won't support 100Mbps
ethernet, so you have to go with one of the 10Mbps standards (I'll ignore
the original 3Mbps.. :-)).
...not even for a couple of machines on a subnet just for fun? :-)
--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd(a)perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD
4:29 p.m.
At 05:27 PM 11/21/00 -0700, you wrote:
I plan to hang all the DEC machines off DELNIs (real ones :), with a
10baseT/AUI adapter to a 10/100 switch (not hub). That way my PCs can
talk to each other and the outside world at 100MBs, and the VAXes
don't have to listen to them. Why should me VAXes be interrupted by
the constant chatter of WIN98?
clint
This reminds me of a quirk in the EE department's network; some NT boxes
here rely on some flavor of NIS for authentication, but they have to
be ping'ed every few seconds at a specific port or the NT yp client
dies. To avoid that, one of the servers sends a bogus yp packet to
_every_ IP address on the network every now and then. Unix machines
don't like it; portmap logs in a couple flavors unix have to be disabled
in order not to generate an entry every few seconds. In others,
/etc/syslog.conf can be modified to avoid this. Fortunately, we're behind
a firewall. But having to acommodate idiotic NT needs sure sucks.
8:30 a.m.
healyzh skrev:
Currently my only uses for 10Base2 is my one DECserver
90L+, PowerBook 540c
(which when I find a cheap 10BaseT transciever for will be switched) and my
Amiga 3000 (currently in storage, but hope to move to my new Apartment one of
these days). Until I moved recently the PDP-11/73 had also been on 10Base2.
Which network card? A2065? EB920 LANrover?
Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying
to get off 10Base2, why
would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than
any 10Base5 stuff!
I'd like some, myself. I've got a 10Base2 segment plugged into my 10BaseT
repeater, but I'd like to have some more networks in order to learn about
routing and just for the sake of completeness. Of course, 10Base5 won't really
require any work once plugged in, but I'd also like some Tokenring and Arcnet,
for sake of completeness.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
Die Malerei ist stumme Poesie, die Poesie blinde Malerei.
--- Leonardo da Vinci
20 Nov
20 Nov
11:30 a.m.
--- Gene Buckle <geneb(a)deltasoft.com> wrote:
Yes, I use it to connect a number of my old SGI and DEC
machines. I run it to a DELNI so I don't need to do cable
taps. Basically this solves the problem of trying to
find transceivers for all the old machines.
--
Dr. Mark Green mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca
McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584
Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX)
University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada
I still have one of those huge H???? vampire tap
ethernet trancievers that I
modified for 10Base2 that I can hook up to the DEQNA.
g.
But does anyone out there use Thicknet at home? I have one vampire tap
transceiver (and a bunch of 10Base2). I would love to set up a segment
of 10Base5 just for the historical sake of it all. I suppose I would
need at least one more 10Base5 transceiver to make it worthwhile.
2:03 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote:
But does anyone out there use Thicknet at home? I
have one vampire tap
transceiver (and a bunch of 10Base2). I would love to set up a segment
Not yet, but I want one. Would't part of the fun of having such a
network be that you can say that your house has vampire taps in it?
:-)
--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd(a)perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD
8643
days inactive
8645
days old
26 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cem14＠cornell.edu -
donm＠crash.cts.com -
ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
korpela＠ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu -
mark＠cs.ualberta.ca -
optimus＠canit.se -
rdd＠smart.net -
rutledge＠cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com -
spc＠conman.org -
tarsi＠binhost.com -
vaxman＠uswest.net