4 Jan
2010
4 Jan
'10
12:57 a.m.
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Dan Roganti <ragooman at comcast.net> wrote:
What I do is add extra heat on the opposite side using
an extra pencil tip
solder iron , hold the board vertically[or use a vise], it helps control the
action this way, and preheat the other side with the desolder iron [with the
bulb squeezed tightly] for several seconds and then release. This also helps
with the stubborn power pins on any DIP package.
In this case, there's plastic in the way on the component side.
Adding heat did the trick though. I went out into the garage and
grabbed my propane torch (1 quart bottle size). I used it to heat the
tip of the desoldering iron. That made the process go much faster
since the solder melted instantly. Then when I tried to pull out the
part, I heated the solder side of the board. That let the part fall
out. Works great when you don't care about ruining the circuit board.
:-)
The 16-bit part of the isa connector was attached to the 8-bit part.
I used a bandsaw to cut through the connectors and free the half I
needed.
Now it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard.
It's the scary part for me. :-)
brian
4 Jan
4 Jan
1:10 a.m.
Now it's time to solder the isa connectors to the
2000 motherboard.
It's the scary part for me. :-)
Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first
place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the
signals and have the holes drilled.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
11:59 a.m.
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote:
To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine.
--
Now it's
time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard.
It's the scary part for me. :-)
Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first
place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the
signals and have the holes drilled.
4:21 p.m.
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote:
To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine.
You think they'd save even more by not placing the traces to begin with...
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Now
it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard.
It's the scary part for me. :-)
Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first
place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the
signals and have the holes drilled. 
4:25 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
You think they'd save even more by not placing the
traces to begin with...
The holes cost money, but the less copper you etch, the less etchant
you need. Overall, it's a one-time cost to design them in, and a
reoccurring cost to drill and plate the holes, but it's a huge cost to
re-do the board later if you decide you want 16-bit slots after all.
I'm sure the design engineers had to fight for those holes, but in the
end, it's not impossible to justify. The traces are going to go from
slot to slot to slot anyway (unless you group the empties on the far
end).
-ethan
4:26 p.m.
On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:
To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine.
You think they'd save even more by not placing the traces to begin
with...
Urr? There's no significant incremental cost there. I'm sure
it's calculable, but it'll be in the hundredths of a cent.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Now it's
time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard.
It's the scary part for me. :-)
Does anyone know why the connectors were left
off the board in
the first place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the
effort to route the signals and have the holes drilled. 
5 Jan
5 Jan
12:04 a.m.
cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote:
Urr? There's no significant incremental cost
there. I'm sure
it's calculable, but it'll be in the hundredths of a cent.
-Dave
I've no idea why this board was built the way it was, but I've seen
plenty
of designs that had all the bells and whistles (or debug MICTORs etc.)
in the
proto and even early engineering builds and then were removed once the
design
was proven or requirements firmed up and the extra bits and pieces were
not
needed. Not building in connectors/components etc. saves a few pennies
(or
more) per board. Re-laying out the board costs $$$.
There are also plenty of examples of part A and part B using the same
board
but with different/more components added for the more expensive variant
(different capacity memory boards would be the classic example, I
guess).
Antonio
4 Jan
4 Jan
4:23 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote:
To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine.
That and probably because some 8-bit cards slopped into what later
became the spot for the 16-bit extension. That's why most ISA boards
still had 1-2 8-bit slots until very late in the game.
But C= was notoriously cheap, so I'm sure they jumped at the chance to
save a few pennies (and back when the A2000 was being designed, people
*did* still use 8-bit serial cards and such).
-ethan
Now
it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard.
It's the scary part for me. ?:-)
Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first
place? ?It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the
signals and have the holes drilled. 
5:28 p.m.
Good point... you would think they would have opted to make the ISA slots a completely
separate board from the mainboard to save some coin... and then sell that with the
bridgeboard instead of including it with the motherboard. Those extra ISA slots take up a
tremendous amount of real estate.
________________________________
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 10:23:15 AM
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote:
To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine.
That and probably because some 8-bit cards slopped into what later
became the spot for the 16-bit extension. That's why most ISA boards
still had 1-2 8-bit slots until very late in the game.
But C= was notoriously cheap, so I'm sure they jumped at the chance to
save a few pennies (and back when the A2000 was being designed, people
*did* still use 8-bit serial cards and such).
-ethan
Now
it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard.
It's the scary part for me. :-)
Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first
place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the
signals and have the holes drilled.
5:42 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:28 AM, geoffrey oltmans
<oltmansg at bellsouth.net> wrote:
Good point... you would think they would have opted to
make the ISA slots a completely
separate board from the mainboard to save some coin... and then sell that with the
bridgeboard instead of including it with the motherboard. Those extra ISA slots take up a
tremendous amount of real estate.
Yeah, the board is huge. If you look at the Amiga 2000 case, the
motherboard occupies the entire footprint of the case including under
the drives and power supply.
In the amiga 3000 and 4000 (and T models), they did switch to riser boards.
Having the slots there made for an interesting upgrades though.
Someone made a card called the Golden Gate "bridgeboard" (not to be
confused with the Golden Gate 386/486 bridgeboards) that simply
bridged the slots without providing a PC clone. The idea was that
with extra drivers, you could put ISA cards in and access them
directly from the amiga.
I believe the slots were also powered all the time because there were
some 8-bit ISA time base corrector boards that were designed to go in
the amiga, just taking power from the ISA bus. The interacted with
the rest of the system through cabling.
brian
6:01 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
Having the slots there made for an interesting
upgrades though.
Someone made a card called the Golden Gate "bridgeboard" (not to be
confused with the Golden Gate 386/486 bridgeboards) that simply
bridged the slots without providing a PC clone. ?The idea was that
with extra drivers, you could put ISA cards in and access them
directly from the amiga.
If you are interested in them, you can get them from me ;-) I
purchased the design from the creator when he graduated from college
and turned them out under the name "GG2 Bus+" (to distance myself from
the confusion from the original name). I still have them in stock,
but demand softened precipitously after C= went under. I did manage
to sell a few bare boards to some enthusiastic hobbyists in Sweden a
couple of years ago - they got all their own parts and copied the GALs
from an existing board (no security bit), but it's
been a long time
since anyone really cared about installing a 10BaseT card in an
Amiga
(there's only one 100BaseT ISA card I know of, and it's weird and rare
and there's no driver for it anyway).
Essentially, there's drivers for IDE disks (yawn), 10BaseT networking
(popular), serial and parallel (occasionally used in the days of
dialup and local printers). There's also support in at least one
DOS-oriented PC emulator (someone used it to talk to an FM tuner card
and an EPROM programmer). The hardware supports VGA interfaces, but
the low bandwidth and a few other things made it a non-starter.
There's also some cacheing issues with Zorro-II space and most/all of
the 68060 cards, so people who were maxing out their Amigas at the end
were essentially not able to use this product. One mod I never did
was to remove VGA/shared ISA memory support and shrink the board back
to a 64K AUTOCONFIG block. That would have fixed the issue with
caching at least, but there wasn't enough demand to fund the effort by
that point.
-ethan
6:31 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
If you are interested in them, you can get them from
me ;-) ? ?I
purchased the design from the creator when he graduated from college
and turned them out under the name "GG2 Bus+" (to distance myself from
the confusion from the original name). ?I still have them in stock,
but demand softened precipitously after C= went under.
What do you want for one?
Although I probably can't use it at the moment since I have a 286
bridgeboard. It would still be nice to play with one.
Essentially, there's drivers for IDE disks
(yawn),
10BaseT networking
(popular), serial and parallel (occasionally used in the days of
dialup and local printers).
IDE is a bigger deal now than you might think. I have a buddha board
which is basically an IDE controller in a zorro 2 slot. Works great.
But if you could package one of your bridge boards with a throw-away
generic ide/port combo board, a network board, and a driver disk, (you
should throw in a compact flash to IDE adapter also) I bet you'd get
quite a few takers on the amiga boards. 10baseT on the 2000 is not so
cheap these days either. The ability to read/write to high density
floppy drives from that ide controller would be welcome too.
Could you auto-boot the ide disk?
?There's also support in at least one
DOS-oriented PC emulator (someone used it to talk to an FM tuner card
and an EPROM programmer). ?The hardware supports VGA interfaces, but
the low bandwidth and a few other things made it a non-starter.
That's too bad. Desktop resolution and that horizontal scan rate, I
think, are the amiga's Achilles' heal. Although NTSC/PAL comparability
is what made the amiga so popular with the video houses.
There's also some cacheing issues with Zorro-II
space and most/all of
the 68060 cards, so people who were maxing out their Amigas at the end
were essentially not able to use this product.
Anyone with a 68060 processor board is likely to have a mediator
anyway, which means PCI slots.
brian
7:20 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps, and the Flash adapter is a good idea, but the limitation is
that the IDE interface is old-school 16-bits-at-a-time-no-DMA, so
really slow, and there's a definite limitation on disk size (I forget
exactly, but probably around 1GB or so).
What do you want for one?
I've been selling them at $99 each, single quantities, with quantity
discounts starting at q.5 to encourage groups to buy (with combined
shipping, naturally).
Although I probably can't use it at the moment
since I have a 286
bridgeboard. ?It would still be nice to play with one.
It's a good solid design, and the only real problem is Zorro II
caching - not a problem with 68000s, naturally, and Enforcer works
fine with '020 and '030 and most '040 boards. I think Enforcer works
with some or most '060 boards, but since it interferes with most of
the caching parameters, it robs the machine of most of its performance
advantage.
Essentially,
there's drivers for IDE disks (yawn),
IDE is a bigger deal now than you might think. ?I have a buddha board
which is basically an IDE controller in a zorro 2 slot. ?Works great.
But if you could package one of your bridge boards with a throw-away
generic ide/port combo board, a network board, and a driver disk, (you
should throw in a compact flash to IDE adapter also) I bet you'd get
quite a few takers on the amiga boards. ?10baseT on the 2000 is not so cheap these days either.
It's not, and that's been the bread-and-butter of this design.
The ability to read/write to high density
floppy drives from that ide controller would be welcome too.
Not possible. The Amiga lacks onboard DMA channels and this board
does not provide any. No ISA DMA is supported.
Could you auto-boot the ide disk?
Not without boot ROMs that knew what to do with it, so no. The GG2
Bus+ implements AUTOCONFIG with a GAL, not an EPROM, so it'd be a
major change to support booting. Because of the non-DMA and the disk
size, I don't think it's a desirable-enough feature to warrant a
design change.
Anyone with a 68060 processor board is likely to have
a mediator
anyway, which means PCI slots.
Long ago, there were plenty of A4000s with '060 boards. Those were
the folks that weren't viable customers. These days, anyone with PCI
slots isn't going to care about an ISA adapter.
The sweet spot for the GG2 Bus+ is an A2000 or lightly-loaded A3000 or
unexpanded A4000. Most people aren't willing to drop the money on a
network card for those machines, so unless you have a burning need to
add a couple of serial ports or open up your Amiga parallel port for a
digitizer and still want to attach a local Centronics printer, the GG2
Bus+ is probably not particularly desirable, thus the sales cliff 8-9
years ago.
-ethan
4:28 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 5:59 AM, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
This kind of thing makes me insane. I would have gladly paid another
$1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board. I have a
hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely
a cost cutting move.
I bet there real reason had to do with the transition from 8-bit to
16-bit add-on cards. With the introduction of the 5170, the form
factor for ISA cards changed a bit. The cards got taller by about
3/4". This caused problems with the IBM PC-XT 286, which was a 286
machines with 16-bit slots crammed into a 5160 case, because the case
wasn't tall enough. You could plug the 16-bit cards in and they'd
work just fine, but you couldn't put the cover back on. :-P
Another problem was that third party card makers could get a little
more real estate by making the card drop down behind the 8-bit slot
making the card about 3/8" taller. Later, when the 16-bit slots
appeared, this drop-down interfered with the slot making the cards
(structurally if not electrically) incompatible with the longer 16-bit
slots. By leaving the 16-bit slot connectors off of the amiga 2000,
they could accommodate these boards. And since the only bridge board
available at the release of the 2000 was the 8086 bridgeboard which
didn't connect to the 16-bit slots, no problem. But designing the
motherboard to support it allowed them to add the connectors in later
if needed should the market turn that way in a hurry.
This is all speculation, but seems to make sense to me.
brian
Does anyone
know why the connectors were left off the board in the first
place? ?It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the
signals and have the holes drilled.
To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. 
4:38 p.m.
This kind of thing makes me insane. ?I would have
gladly paid another
$1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board.
Keep in mind that catering to the tiny majority of people like
yourself really throws a wrench in the manufacturing engineering
works. For every component of a computer there is the obvious cost of
the piece, but from there one can find *dozens* of little extra (and
sometimes not so little) costs associated with it - everything from
extra inventory costs to the extra toilet paper in the bathroom.
Having semicustom builds, like including the connectors in this
example,*really* amplifies things.
?I have a
hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely
a cost cutting move.
It is. All companies do it - even Apple and IBM and the other premium
equipment manufacturers. When you get into the trenches (the
production floor), you see that building computers is much more than
stuffing boards.
--
Will
4:49 p.m.
On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
SKUs cost real $'s. And that's just to have it even if you never build one.
It's part of the process of having a trackable production system. Depending upon the
company this can be quite significant. Those are $'s that are part of the NRE and
have to be recouped in order to make a profit. When I was at IBM I think the oft quoted
number for a new part number (no part, no system, just adding and tracking the #) was
$50,000. Now think about how many parts are in a system (note that sub-assemblies have
their own part number). SKUs were more....much more.
Not to mention having to track multiple SKUs and do all of the testing which may need to
include agency tests (ie UL, FCC, etc). $$$$$'s.
TTFN - Guy
This kind of
thing makes me insane. I would have gladly paid another
$1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board.
Keep in mind that catering to the tiny majority of people like
yourself really throws a wrench in the manufacturing engineering
works. For every component of a computer there is the obvious cost of
the piece, but from there one can find *dozens* of little extra (and
sometimes not so little) costs associated with it - everything from
extra inventory costs to the extra toilet paper in the bathroom.
Having semicustom builds, like including the connectors in this
example,*really* amplifies things. I have a
hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely
a cost cutting move.
It is. All companies do it - even Apple and IBM and the other premium
equipment manufacturers. When you get into the trenches (the
production floor), you see that building computers is much more than
stuffing boards. 
5:51 p.m.
--- On Mon, 1/4/10, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, and besides, Commodore knew at this point that if people wanted a feature in their
computers badly enough, they'd solder it in themselves. At least Commodore was good at
giving users the framework and the information they needed to do it. For example, look how
easy it is to add RS-232 to a C64. All you need is an inverter and some level shifters.
The routines are already in ROM to allow that to work.
Also, how many people actually *bought* the bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of
2000's, but I've never once seen a PC bridgeboard.
-Ian
This kind of
thing makes me
insane. I would have gladly paid another
$1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on
the
board.
Keep in mind that catering to the tiny majority of people
like
yourself really throws a wrench in the manufacturing
engineering
works. For every component of a computer there is the
obvious cost of
the piece, but from there one can find *dozens* of little
extra (and
sometimes not so little) costs associated with it -
everything from
extra inventory costs to the extra toilet paper in the
bathroom.
Having semicustom builds, like including the connectors in
this
example,*really* amplifies things.
5:55 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:
Also, how many people actually *bought* the
bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of 2000's, but I've never once seen a PC
bridgeboard.
I have a couple of them, but I got them in a pile of bits from a
defunct C= dealer. I don't recall running into them in the wild, so
to speak.
-ethan
6 p.m.
I have one, a lower end bridgeboard model.
Marty
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Mr Ian Primus
<ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:
Also, how many people actually *bought* the
bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of 2000's, but I've never once seen a PC
bridgeboard.
I have a couple of them, but I got them in a pile of bits from a
defunct C= dealer. ?I don't recall running into them in the wild, so
to speak.
-ethan
6 Jan
6 Jan
6:54 a.m.
They were pretty popular here in Australia - when I was working for a
Commodore dealer we sold around 2 or 3 a week - this was the XT model.
Lance
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Martin Goldberg
Sent: Tuesday, 5 January 2010 5:01 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
I have one, a lower end bridgeboard model.
Marty
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Mr Ian Primus
<ian_primus at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Also, how many people actually *bought* the
bridgeboard, anyway? I have
seen dozens of 2000's, but I've never once seen
a PC bridgeboard.
I have a couple of them, but I got them in a pile of bits from a
defunct C= dealer. ?I don't recall running into them in the wild, so
to speak.
-ethan
4 Jan
4 Jan
5:59 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:
Also, how many people actually *bought* the
bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of
2000's, but I've never once seen a PC bridgeboard.
The 8086 bridgeboard (from watching ebay) seems to be really common.
One pops up about once a month and usually goes for low prices. As
you go up the scale, they get increasingly more rare. The 286 board
appears from time to time. But the golden gate boards with 486s
almost never show up... maybe once a year. They're more likely to be
traded on the amiga forums. A tested/working 486 golden gate board
with the external video breakout box, I bet, would go for around $500
on ebay now.
brian
7:24 p.m.
Not many, I'd wager. I've seen exactly two in the wild ever. One was installed in
an A2000HD system from the dealer (an 8088 one). Another I found in a pile o' parts
(80286 one).
________________________________
From: Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 11:51:47 AM
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
Yeah, and besides, Commodore knew at this point that if people wanted a feature in their
computers badly enough, they'd solder it in themselves. At least Commodore was good at
giving users the framework and the information they needed to do it. For example, look how
easy it is to add RS-232 to a C64. All you need is an inverter and some level shifters.
The routines are already in ROM to allow that to work.
Also, how many people actually *bought* the bridgeboard, anyway? I have seen dozens of
2000's, but I've never once seen a PC bridgeboard.
-Ian
8:06 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "geoffrey oltmans" <oltmansg at bellsouth.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
Not many, I'd wager. I've seen exactly two in
the wild ever. One was
installed in an A2000HD system from the dealer (an 8088 one). Another I
found in a pile o' parts (80286 one).
My used A2000 came with a 286 bridgeboard and 5.25" floppy drive in factory
config (it was a 2000HD badged unitt with a 2091 SCSI card installed.
If we go by ebay then 90% of A2000's were sold with Toasters in them.
8:15 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
If we go by ebay then 90% of A2000's were sold
with Toasters in them.
yeah, that's how i got mine. I think it's because the home users
scrapped their machines in favor of 486s or Macs, but the video houses
kept right on using their toasters.
brian
8:22 p.m.
While I wouldn't argue 90%, I'd wager that a significantly large percentage of
2000s were sold as Toaster machines. They were astronomically expensive for what you got
when they were available.
________________________________
From: Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 2:06:04 PM
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
My used A2000 came with a 286 bridgeboard and 5.25" floppy drive in factory config
(it was a 2000HD badged unitt with a 2091 SCSI card installed.
If we go by ebay then 90% of A2000's were sold with Toasters in them.
8:35 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "geoffrey oltmans" <oltmansg at bellsouth.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
While I wouldn't argue 90%, I'd wager that a
significantly large
percentage of 2000s were sold as Toaster machines. They were
astronomically expensive for what you got when they were available.
The 2000 was a workhorse Amiga, I would expect them to sell hundreds of
thousands of them (anyone have production numbers?). Were there more then
30K Toaster boards sold?
Quite a few A2000 Toasters on ebay are just generic 2000's that somebody
stuck a Toaster card into because it makes the whole setup worth more. Those
systems are missing the stickers you stuck to the expansion slot to label
all the ports.
8:45 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
The 2000 was a workhorse Amiga, I would expect them to
sell hundreds of
thousands of them (anyone have production numbers?). Were there more then
30K Toaster boards sold?
Quite a few A2000 Toasters on ebay are just generic 2000's that somebody
stuck a Toaster card into because it makes the whole setup worth more. Those
systems are missing the stickers you stuck to the expansion slot to label
all the ports.
If I remember correctly, the toaster was available as a separate
upgrade for the 2000. But NewTek also sold 2000s pre-installed with
toaster. I think those machines are the ones with the stickers on the
front and back, and maybe the color-coded keyboards.
Maybe the toaster board came with those stickers in the box, and
people just didn't put them on. I'm not sure. But my 2000/toaster
came from a video editing company that went out of business. It was
just a 2000 with a toaster in it (as well as a few other things), no
stickers.
brian
9:35 p.m.
That's true... the Toaster was originally sold as an upgrade to the 2000 (and later
4000). Eventually they licensed the 2000 and rebadged it as a Video Toaster 2000 machine
(with the aforementioned stickers), but certainly wasn't like that when the Toaster
originally came out. Probably a year later or so.
________________________________
From: Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 2:45:14 PM
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
The 2000 was a workhorse Amiga, I would expect them to
sell hundreds of
thousands of them (anyone have production numbers?). Were there more then
30K Toaster boards sold?
Quite a few A2000 Toasters on ebay are just generic 2000's that somebody
stuck a Toaster card into because it makes the whole setup worth more. Those
systems are missing the stickers you stuck to the expansion slot to label
all the ports.
If I remember correctly, the toaster was available as a separate
upgrade for the 2000. But NewTek also sold 2000s pre-installed with
toaster. I think those machines are the ones with the stickers on the
front and back, and maybe the color-coded keyboards.
Maybe the toaster board came with those stickers in the box, and
people just didn't put them on. I'm not sure. But my 2000/toaster
came from a video editing company that went out of business. It was
just a 2000 with a toaster in it (as well as a few other things), no
stickers.
brian
4:43 p.m.
On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Brian Lanning wrote:
This kind of thing makes me insane. I would have gladly paid another
$1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board. I have a
hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely
a cost cutting move.
I bet there real reason had to do with the transition from 8-bit to
16-bit add-on cards. ...
It was definitely a cost-cutting move.
Back in 2003 or so I was working on a commercial product for mass
production. After the prototypes were working great, the owner of
our very small company (a tyrant with no common sense whatsoever)
sent my design to a "cost engineer" to "engineer the cost out of
it". (his words) It came back with such wonderful "improvements" as
swapping out those nice low-ESR capacitors in my switching regulators
with cheaper ones whose ESR was through the roof, which of course
rendered the power supplies nonfunctional. Without the power
supplies, I obviously didn't get any farther in testing. ;)
It's amazing what management types will do to increase their
profit margins by even a tiny bit. I'm sure in production quantities
that the cost savings was much less than $0.50 per slot, but still,
even if it were $0.10 per slot, add that up over a production run of
25,000 boards and you end up with another few thousand bucks that the
suit can later arrange to steal from the company.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the
board in
the first
place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to
route the
signals and have the holes drilled.
To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine.
4:52 p.m.
On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:43 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Brian Lanning wrote:
This kind of thing makes me insane. I would have gladly paid another
$1, or even $10, had they just put the parts on the board. I have a
hard time believing (i.e. prefer to believe) that this would be purely
a cost cutting move.
I bet there real reason had to do with the transition from 8-bit to
16-bit add-on cards. ...
It's amazing what management types will do to increase their profit margins by even
a tiny bit. I'm sure in production quantities that the cost savings was much less
than $0.50 per slot, but still, even if it were $0.10 per slot, add that up over a
production run of 25,000 boards and you end up with another few thousand bucks that the
suit can later arrange to steal from the company.
Being associated with high volume products (think 1,000,000's per quarter) even saving
$0.001 per unit adds up. It's not the cost of the product, it's the multiplier.
I've had to swallow hard on some HW choices that made the HW cheaper but made the SW
more complex just because the multiplier was so large.
TTFN - Guy
Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the
board in the first
place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the
signals and have the holes drilled.
To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine. 
8:40 p.m.
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Gene Buckle wrote:
To save $0.50 per slot, I'd imagine.
There were some 8-bit ISA cards which will not fit in a 16 bit slot --
the board hangs down in front of the edge conenctor fingers and it bangs
into the extra part of the connecotr. One of the original PC video cards
is like that, I forget if it's the MDA or CGA one. That's why there are 2
8-bit slots in the 5170, I think (in the PC/XT286, there actually wans't
room on the motherboard for the extra connectors -- the 8 bit slots have
chips where the extra connector would have been).
-tony
Now
it's time to solder the isa connectors to the 2000 motherboard.
It's the scary part for me. :-)
Does anyone know why the connectors were left off the board in the first
place? It seems kind of silly since they went to the effort to route the
signals and have the holes drilled. 
1:36 a.m.
Brian Lanning wrote:
In this case, there's plastic in the way on the
component side.
In this case, you can also apply extra heat with a pencil tip iron to
the side of the desolder tip on the same side of the pcb.
Adding heat did the trick though. I went out into the
garage and
grabbed my propane torch (1 quart bottle size).
nothing like the brute force method :)
=Dan
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/
http://www.midatlanticretro.org/
2:02 a.m.
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Dan Roganti <ragooman at comcast.net> wrote:
nothing like the brute force method :)
It was fun. At one point I set the board on fire. I also cut through
the connectors and motherboard so that I wouldn't have to desolder the
8-bit parts. Lots of pretty blue/green sparks. :-)
I have the connectors soldered to the amiga now. I'm putting it back
together. We'll see if it works.
brian
8 Jan
8 Jan
5:09 a.m.
Hi,
On Sun, Jan 03, 2010 at 08:36:38PM -0500, Dan Roganti wrote:
Brian Lanning wrote:
I've actually found that a a torch on one side of the board and
a pair of pliers on the other is an excellent way of removing many
components, no soldering iron involved, since the torch makes it
easy to heat all the pins of an IC or connector simultaneously.
Of course, the board doesn't end up in such good shape...
Mark
--
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com)
Web: http://mgtinternet.com/
Tel: +1-215-512-0112 US: 877-512-0112
In this case, there's plastic in the way on
the component side.
In this case, you can also apply extra heat with a pencil tip iron
to the side of the desolder tip on the same side of the pcb.
Adding heat did the trick though. I went out into
the garage and
grabbed my propane torch (1 quart bottle size).
nothing like the brute force method :) 
6:03 a.m.
On 8 Jan 2010 at 0:09, Mark G. Thomas wrote:
I've actually found that a a torch on one side of
the board and
a pair of pliers on the other is an excellent way of removing many
components, no soldering iron involved, since the torch makes it easy
to heat all the pins of an IC or connector simultaneously.
Of course, the board doesn't end up in such good shape...
...and your respiratory system might end up in the same shape unless
you do this sort of thing outdoors and upwind or with forced air
ventilation in your work area. Those resins that boil out of the PCB
are pretty nasty. I can't comment on the lead content of the vapors
either.
Just be careful.
--Chuck
6:10 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
On 8 Jan 2010 at 0:09, Mark G. Thomas wrote:
How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way of
getting the smoke out of the house?
I've actually found that a a torch on one
side of the board and
a pair of pliers on the other is an excellent way of removing many
components, no soldering iron involved, since the torch makes it easy
to heat all the pins of an IC or connector simultaneously.
Of course, the board doesn't end up in such good shape...
...and your respiratory system might end up in the same shape unless
you do this sort of thing outdoors and upwind or with forced air
ventilation in your work area. Those resins that boil out of the PCB
are pretty nasty. I can't comment on the lead content of the vapors
either.
Just be careful.
--Chuck
6:27 a.m.
New subject: desoldering problems and technique; toxics
On 8 Jan 2010 at 1:10, Teo Zenios wrote:
How many people here do soldering (using lead solder)
indoors with no
way of getting the smoke out of the house?
Almost all of the "smoke" is burning flux, not solder. Compared to
the amount of solder I use in my other hobby--brass musical
instrument repair--I suspect that the amount of airborne lead is
miniscule when a PCB is soldered.
Lead has quite a high (1740C) boiling point, so the vapor pressure of
lead at normal (217C) 63-37 Sn-Pb solder melting point is probably
very low.
However, I don't know about torching PCBs.
--Chuck
2:02 p.m.
How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way of
getting the smoke out of the house?
*raises hand*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
2:23 p.m.
How many
people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way
of getting the smoke out of the house?
*raises hand*
2:56 p.m.
--- On Fri, 1/8/10, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
*tries to raise hand but has radial neuropathy from the
lead*
*raises hand*
But... if you're soldering correctly, there really shouldn't be a whole lot of
smoke - and most of what's smoke should really just be flux burning off. So, I
don't see anything wrong with soldering in poorly ventalated areas. It' snot liek
iit can cuase drain bamage.
-Ian
> How many
people here do
soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way
of
getting the smoke out of the house?
*raises hand* 
6:52 p.m.
Mr Ian Primus wrote:
But... if you're soldering correctly, there really
shouldn't be a
whole lot of smoke - and most of what's smoke should really just be
flux burning off. So, I don't see anything wrong with soldering in
poorly ventalated areas. It' snot liek iit can cuase drain bamage.
I had bad spelling long before I could solder. :)
-Ian
7:25 p.m.
On Jan 8, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
And farts! (if that's the same respirator..)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
How many
people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no
way of getting the smoke out of the house?
I do, but I wear a half-face respirator with cartridges designed
for lead and flux. 
7:48 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
And farts! (if that's the same respirator..)
It is, indeed!
Peace... Sridhar
How many people here do soldering (using lead solder)
indoors with no
way of getting the smoke out of the house?
I do, but I wear a half-face respirator with cartridges designed for
lead and flux.
9 Jan
9 Jan
4:57 a.m.
On Jan 8, 2010, at 2:48 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
And farts! (if that's the same respirator..)
It is, indeed!
It's good to know that it's versatile. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
How many
people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors
with no
way of getting the smoke out of the house?
I do, but I wear a half-face respirator with cartridges designed for
lead and flux. 
8 Jan
8 Jan
6:14 p.m.
* On Fri, Jan 08, 2010 at 01:10:14AM -0500, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with
no way of getting the smoke out of the house?
I certainly do, though I have table-top Weller solder fume extractor
that filters at least some of the fumes. I've inhaled my fair share of
burning flux nevertheless.
There seems to be some magic at work such that no matter where I sit, no
matter what angle I hold the iron, no matter where I put the fume
extractor, and no matter how much I hold my breath... the main tendril
of solder smoke will aim directly for my nostrils, without fail. I'm
sure this power could be used for good, if only I knew how.
-Seth
6:53 p.m.
Seth Morabito wrote:
There seems to be some magic at work such that no
matter where I sit, no
matter what angle I hold the iron, no matter where I put the fume
extractor, and no matter how much I hold my breath... the main tendril
of solder smoke will aim directly for my nostrils, without fail. I'm
sure this power could be used for good, if only I knew how.
We should join forces.
If I'm at a establishment that allows smoking (still some around), no
matter where I am in the room, the smoke from the person-closest-to-me's
cigarette will come directly in my face.
If I move to avoid it, the smoke will follow.
Keith
7:13 p.m.
ditto. I've been inhaling solder fumes for as long as I can remember...which
admittedly these days seems to be less and less. Perhaps this is a contributing factor.
:)
________________________________
From: Seth Morabito <sethm at loomcom.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Fri, January 8, 2010 12:14:39 PM
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
* On Fri, Jan 08, 2010 at 01:10:14AM -0500, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
How many people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with
no way of getting the smoke out of the house?
I certainly do, though I have table-top Weller solder fume extractor
that filters at least some of the fumes. I've inhaled my fair share of
burning flux nevertheless.
There seems to be some magic at work such that no matter where I sit, no
matter what angle I hold the iron, no matter where I put the fume
extractor, and no matter how much I hold my breath... the main tendril
of solder smoke will aim directly for my nostrils, without fail. I'm
sure this power could be used for good, if only I knew how.
-Seth
7:31 p.m.
On Jan 8, 2010, at 1:14 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
I have the exact same problem. Sure is annoying. Fume extractors
and bench ionizers (blower style) solve that problem for me.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
How many
people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with
no way of getting the smoke out of the house?
I certainly do, though I have table-top Weller solder fume extractor
that filters at least some of the fumes. I've inhaled my fair share of
burning flux nevertheless.
There seems to be some magic at work such that no matter where I
sit, no
matter what angle I hold the iron, no matter where I put the fume
extractor, and no matter how much I hold my breath... the main tendril
of solder smoke will aim directly for my nostrils, without fail. I'm
sure this power could be used for good, if only I knew how. 
7:46 p.m.
Seth Morabito wrote:
I certainly do, though I have table-top Weller solder fume extractor
that filters at least some of the fumes. I've inhaled my fair share of
burning flux nevertheless.
There seems to be some magic at work such that no matter where I sit, no
matter what angle I hold the iron, no matter where I put the fume
extractor, and no matter how much I hold my breath... the main tendril
of solder smoke will aim directly for my nostrils, without fail.
Ya, that effect sure can be annoying. I've figured it has to do with convection
air flow from body heat adding to that of the soldering iron and drawing the
smoke over to one's head.
8:34 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
Yea, well for all we know you look like an ash colored zombie stiffly
walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling "brains... err flux,
rosin core solder, flux!"
;)
On a serious note, even lead poisining doesn't directly kill you but it sure
screws you up.
How many
people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way
of
getting the smoke out of the house?
I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet...
-tony
8:43 p.m.
On Jan 8, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Teo Zenios wrote:
Yea, well for all we know you look like an ash colored zombie
stiffly walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling
"brains... err flux, rosin core solder, flux!"
;)
ROFL! "BRAINS!!"
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
How many people here do soldering (using lead solder)
indoors
with no way of
getting the smoke out of the house?
I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me
yet...
-tony On a serious note, even lead poisining doesn't
directly kill you
but it sure screws you up.
Yeah I've been wondering about that for a while. I'm 40, been
solding (a LOT) since I was about 7. I've inhaled lots of the
vapors, handled lots of solder bare-handed, etc. I've heard rumors
about people having trouble because of this but nothing confirmed. I
sure wish my brain worked better; I have some serious complaints
about it, but I don't know whether lead could be the source of the
problem.
-Dave
9:13 p.m.
How many
people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way
of
getting the smoke out of the house?
I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet...
-tony On a serious note, even lead poisining doesn't
directly kill you but it sure
screws you up.
Now that could explain a lot :-)
-tony
9:42 p.m.
On 8 Jan 2010 at 21:13, Tony Duell wrote in response to someone else:
I save bits of rosin purchased for use on my double bass bow and
dissolve them in denatured alcohol. The liquid flux works just fine
when I need a bit extra (e.g. when tinning bare copper stranded
wire).
Waste not, want not. :)
I suspect that any electronics-savvy gymnast might do the same with
the powdered rosin used to improve one's grip, but to tell the truth,
I've never known an electronics-savvy gymnast.
--Chuck
Yea, well for
all we know you look like an ash colored zombie
stiffly walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling
"brains... err flux, rosin core solder, flux!"
Do you honestly think I would buy anything from RadioShack?
9 Jan
9 Jan
8:25 p.m.
I save bits of rosin purchased for use on my double
bass bow and
dissolve them in denatured alcohol. The liquid flux works just fine
when I need a bit extra (e.g. when tinning bare copper stranded
wire).
Waste not, want not. :)
I suspect that any electronics-savvy gymnast might do the same with
the powdered rosin used to improve one's grip, but to tell the truth,
I've never known an electronics-savvy gymnast.
Well, I'm certainly not one. I am very much a 'high mass hobbyist', in
both the snese that I collect high-mass machines and tbat I myself am
high-mass. Athletic I am certainly not.
But presumably anybody can buy the rosin intended for either of these uses
and instrad use it as a soldering flux.
-tony
8 Jan
8 Jan
10:41 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Yea, well for all we know you look like an ash colored zombie stiffly
walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling "brains... err flux,
rosin core solder, flux!"
Do you honestly think I would buy anything from RadioShack?
Umm Do they sell anything other than solder and a bit of wire?
True.
How many
people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way
of
getting the smoke out of the house?
I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet...
-tony On a serious note, even lead poisining
doesn't directly kill you but it sure
screws you up.
Now that could explain a lot :-) -tony
10:48 p.m.
On Jan 8, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Ben wrote:
Do you honestly think I would buy anything from RadioShack?
Umm Do they sell anything other than solder and a bit of wire?
Now let's be fair. Radio Shack has considerably increased the
number of electronic components that they carry in their stores in
the past couple of years. Now you can get all the basic resistors
and capacitors, as well as a fair assortment of transistors and ICs.
And their connector assortment is pretty impressive.
Let's give credit where credit is due.
Due to exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic hobbyism
seems to be on the rise, a welcome change after its massive decline
over the past 10-15 years. Kudos to Radio Shack for recognizing this.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
> How many
people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors
> with no way
> of
> getting the smoke out of the house?
I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed
me yet...
-tony
Yea, well for all we know you look like an ash colored zombie
stiffly
walking into Radioshack with outstretched arms mumbling
"brains... err flux,
rosin core solder, flux!"
11:14 p.m.
On 8 Jan 2010 at 17:48, Dave McGuire wrote:
Now let's be fair. Radio Shack has
considerably increased the
number of electronic components that they carry in their stores in
the past couple of years. Now you can get all the basic resistors
and capacitors, as well as a fair assortment of transistors and ICs.
And their connector assortment is pretty impressive.
Perhaps in their web store and maybe in company-owned franchises, but
"the Shack" outlet nearest me hasn't improved their selection very
much over the last couple of years. The stock carried could well
be the decision of the individual franchise owner.
--Chuck
12:46 a.m.
On Jan 8, 2010, at 7:38 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I think the suits will prevent that from happening, but there are
lots of companies making kits now. Granted they're nowhere near on
the grand scale of Heathkit, but perhaps that'll happen again in the
future.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Due to
exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic
hobbyism seems to be on the rise, a welcome change after its
massive decline over the past 10-15 years. Kudos to Radio Shack
for recognizing this.
Should I dream with Heathkit back?
:o)
12:50 a.m.
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Only the plane kit! :)
My wish was the Heath 11.
Ben.
Due to
exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic hobbyism
seems to be on the rise, a welcome change after its massive decline
over the past 10-15 years. Kudos to Radio Shack for recognizing this.
Should I dream with Heathkit back?
:o)
1 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 19:38, Alexandre Souza - Listas
<pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
I think there are plenty of equivalents today. Sparkfun, Adafruit,
Spare Time Gizmos, .... but just like Heathkit in its day was actually
reasonably current technology, today's hobbyist is going to be
programming FPGA's and ATmegas, and possibly baking SMT boards.
--
Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem
?Due to
exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic hobbyism ?seems
to be on the rise, a welcome change after its massive decline ?over the past
10-15 years. ?Kudos to Radio Shack for recognizing this.
? Should I dream with Heathkit back?
? :o)
1:27 a.m.
Joachim Thiemann wrote:
I think there are plenty of equivalents today.
Sparkfun, Adafruit,
Spare Time Gizmos, .... but just like Heathkit in its day was actually
reasonably current technology, today's hobbyist is going to be
programming FPGA's and ATmegas, and possibly baking SMT boards.
Umm, My box with tubes and transformers came in today. You
know what I will be doing tonight. I do plan to do modern stuff
but I changing my mind on the digital stuff as I still have not
found a Schematic/PCB program I can afford and I like. I have
diptrace, but still need footprints for edge connectors and
84 pin PLCC socket. Once that is done, I hope to build a 24/12 bit
computer (64K - 12 bit words) using one 128 cell CPLD's for control
logic, 3 2901's and a 128 cell CPLD for glue registers. I plan
to use a 6800 style clock, and run 24 bits through 2 passes of
the 12 bit alu. This I hope will permit me say 6" x 6" cards on
a motherboard with just XT connectors.
Ben.
10 Jan
10 Jan
3:47 a.m.
At 05:48 PM 1/8/2010, Dave McGuire wrote:
Let's give credit where credit is due.
Due to exposure like Make magazine and such, electronic hobbyism
seems to be on the rise, a welcome change after its massive decline
over the past 10-15 years. Kudos to Radio Shack for recognizing this.
Make magazine has helped a great deal. To see the influence at work,
particularly if you're a Doctor Who fan, look at
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/01/letters_we_get_letters_1.html
and the link off of that to
http://www.flickr.com/photos/piddlipoo/sets/72157622921889361/
which proves that the younger generation (younger than me, at least) is
still interested in electronic hobbyism.
Full disclosure: that's my daughter's project. And I didn't help her
with the Dalek, that's all her work.
-Rick
3:58 a.m.
Rick Murphy wrote:
Full disclosure: that's my daughter's project.
And I didn't help her
with the Dalek, that's all her work.
-Rick
What electronics? The classic Dalek has plywood,wheels,plummer's helper
and a short guy inside. :-)
Sigh! I guess the era of $50 props are long gone!
Ben.
5:52 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben" <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
Rick Murphy wrote:
I miss movies like The Thing where the special effects were real looking and
non digital.
Full disclosure: that's my daughter's
project. And I didn't help her
with the Dalek, that's all her work.
-Rick
What electronics? The classic Dalek has plywood,wheels,plummer's helper
and a short guy inside. :-)
Sigh! I guess the era of $50 props are long gone!
Ben. 
4:06 a.m.
New subject: A very strange SIMM chip
http://www.caetano.eng.br/crashcomputer/2010/01/state-of-art.html
Very, VERY strange :oD
4:50 a.m.
New subject: A very strange SIMM chip
On 10 Jan 2010 at 2:06, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I've got a Panasonic laser printer memory card that uses the same
SIPs. Apparently, the Japanese liked them.
--Chuck
4:59 a.m.
New subject: A very strange SIMM chip
I've got a
Panasonic laser printer memory card that uses the same
SIPs. Apparently, the Japanese liked them.
That isn't hard to find something that uses SIPs. But 32 of them in a
72-pin SIMM module?! :oO
8:57 a.m.
New subject: A very strange SIMM chip
On 10 Jan 2010 at 2:59, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
That isn't hard to find something that uses
SIPs. But 32 of them
in a 72-pin SIMM module?! :oO
Makes sense to me. Keeps things simple--one SIP per bit--although
it does make for a thick package.
--Chuck
9 Jan
9 Jan
8:28 p.m.
Do you
honestly think I would buy anything from RadioShack?
Umm Do they sell anything other than solder and a bit of wire? 
2:52 a.m.
On Friday (01/08/2010 at 07:11PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote:
And 40 yrs here... and I still can't spell.
oh-- and I also salvage chips from boards by heating the board with a
propane torch and plucking them off with a vise-grips. You gotta love
the smell of solder smoke in the morning man...
--
Chris Elmquist
How many
people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way of
getting the smoke out of the house?
I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet... 
3:53 p.m.
Hi
I still like peanut oil in a fry pan. It is
a little more controlled than a torch.
Dwight
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 20:52:36 -0600
From: chrise at pobox.com
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: desoldering problems and technique (and amiga 2000 mod)
CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org
On Friday (01/08/2010 at 07:11PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote:
And 40 yrs here... and I still can't spell.
oh-- and I also salvage chips from boards by heating the board with a
propane torch and plucking them off with a vise-grips. You gotta love
the smell of solder smoke in the morning man...
--
Chris Elmquist
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
How many
people here do soldering (using lead solder) indoors with no way of
getting the smoke out of the house?
I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me yet...
8:23 p.m.
On Jan 8, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote:
And 40 yrs here... and I still can't spell.
oh-- and I also salvage chips from boards by heating the board with a
propane torch and plucking them off with a vise-grips. You gotta love
the smell of solder smoke in the morning man...
"Smells like...<sniffff>...component recycling."
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
How many people here do soldering (using lead solder)
indoors
with no way of
getting the smoke out of the house?
I've been doing it for well over 30 years and it hasn't killed me
yet...
8 Jan
8 Jan
3:04 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
...and your respiratory system might end up in the
same shape unless
you do this sort of thing outdoors and upwind or with forced air
ventilation in your work area. Those resins that boil out of the PCB
are pretty nasty. I can't comment on the lead content of the vapors
either.
The flux is quite toxic also.
Peace... Sridhar
10 Jan
10 Jan
1:15 p.m.
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 10:04:52 -0500
Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote:
The flux is quite toxic also.
And the flux
needed for lead-free solder even more.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
12 Jan
12 Jan
9:09 a.m.
On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:02:22 +0000 (GMT)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
So, considering that the smoke that comes off when I
solder is mostly
flux, I guess I am safer sticking to the old leaded solder.
You need lead free /
RoHS certified components to use with lead free
solder. You can not mix leaded with unleaded solder. So you need
different tips for your soldering iron to prevent contamination.
Unleaded solder needs higher temeratures also. I.e. if you repair
older, leaded electronics you must use leaded solder. So most likely it
will take an other 10 years until we hit this problem in this mailing
list. ;-)
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
9:18 p.m.
> So, considering that the smoke that comes off
when I solder is mostly=20
> flux, I guess I am safer sticking to the old leaded solder.
You need lead free / RoHS certified components to use
with lead free
solder. You can not mix leaded with unleaded solder. So you need
As I understand it (and partical experience partially verifies this), the
problem is contamination of lead-free solder with lead. Not the reverse.
In other words, you can't use old leaded components with lead free solder,
but there's no problem in soldering lead-free components with lead/tin
solder I've done that many times and had no problems.
different tips for your soldering iron to prevent
contamination.
Unleaded solder needs higher temeratures also. I.e. if you repair
older, leaded electronics you must use leaded solder. So most likely it
Sure. Which I do anyway.
The point is for things I build myself for myself. I am currently
sticking to leaded solder (for many reasons), my comment was that as the
amount of lead in the fumes is miniaml -- they're mostly flux -- and as
the lead-free flux is more toxic, I may acutally be safer sticking to the
lead solder.
will take an other 10 years until we hit this problem
in this mailing
list. ;-)
-tony
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