;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Doug Yowza typed: Uh, and what about that "grey area" of programmable calcs? Not only do they have personality... 1) my trusty Casio programmable calc of 12 years ago that started me thru college, may it R.I.P. is wholly program code compatible with my new(er) 9700 (icon-based screen, 32K RAM)... 2) The TI-59 had not only magnetic card storage, but also a ROM-card library, (at least) one of which was a ROM of games... including an interesting football simulation. but in most (if not all) definitions of a computer, they fit. Why? As you seem to be less interested in calcs, it seems many on this list may be as interested, and if they do fit the definition of a computer, why can't they be included? The absolute definition of a computer as I remember it goes thusly: "An instrument which can perform arithmatic and logical functions without the aid of a human." Which to me would: exclude sliderules (tho the thread on here I found *very* interesting and enjoyed), include mechanical / analog computers, (to me) exclude basic / 4-function calcs (some folks think carrying & single-memory storage encompass logical functions... I disagree) include programmable calcs... (heavens, my Casio calc has more memory than my Tandy 200... Goodness!) Granted, these points are primarily moot, for the definition of a computer as to be used on this list would need to be defined by Mr. Bill Whitson, the (still) owner of this list. My New Casio fits all these descriptions (but is not 10 years old), my old Casio fits all and is old too, and (with a slight stretch for input) so does my TI-59. By your definition, adding a terminal to an altair would not turn it into a computer... for the computer is only performing I/O on an RS-232. The terminal is doing the displaying. To fit your definition, you would need to add a dedicated keyboard & video board to said Altair... So, you've successfully excluded Altairs, but included Casio calculators... Or is this just an HP vendetta???? :-) Just my (awkward) views... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Owner, MerchWare | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch(a)northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice.