19 Feb
2019
19 Feb
'19
6:06 p.m.
Fred,> Are we being a little sarcastic or serious? >:)>>A lot of BOTHJust
making sure. ;)>I would like to see software for flux >transition hardware that
would >extract sectors.>THEN, I would like to see that software as >a
>subroutine, with an interface similar to >INT13h.>THEN, I would like to see that
ROMable, >either on a physical ROM, or >loaded into RAM, with the INT13h vestor
>repointed to it.That would make for a very powerful tool but as you pointed out
yourself how many users would learn to use it? Unless it is a simple driver that gets
loaded and the user has to simply put in a couple of generic parameters, e.g.
"device=c:\drives\emudsk.sys APPLE", and it is up and running most users
won't be able to make use of it.>My preference would be REAL MODE (DOS).As would
mine but would a 286 be able to do it? And if you have a machine that runs real mode DOS
why not make use of the HW that is there?>Match Point could be implemented in
>software on the Central Point board.Great. Then if the DOB HW is duplicated then that
part can be SW and no need to have Match Point HW duplicated. I am surprised the Copy II
PC DOB card did not handle Apple II disks along with Mac disks.?>CompatiCard was just
an ordinary FDC, >without the crippling corners cut.True, but if you are building the
ultimate FDC then you don't want crippling corners cut. So something functionally
equivalent.>SO, you are asking for FDC plus flux >transition, but better integrated,
>rather than flux transition hardware >interrupting the drive cable.Yes! All on one
card. Throw in FDADAP functionality to properly write 8" disks and you have a
controller that handles most if not all IBM, Apple II, and Mac disks. As I understand it,
in my limited way, having both FM and MFM should allow for many CP/M formats including SD.
Will some formats be left out? Sure. Will it be as powerful as a Kyro Flux for archiving?
Heck no. But will it let me pop in my original 123 disk and copy it for use with out too
much hassle and work? Of course.?>There are a few exceptions, such as Pro-lock.Well
then you had the ENHANCED Deluxe Board. :)>But, in quite a few cases, people have
>disassembled (now illegal under >DMCA!), found the vulnerabilities and >simply
disabled the copy protection.?Yes but that is harder and harder to find. They were never
public but each city had multiple BBSes offering such altered programs. And of course the
other problems w/ this method is you are confined to the one altered version? (even if you
own a later version). Also there is no guarantee the alterations will not cause a bug that
will crop up later due to a lack of total testing.-Ali
19 Feb
19 Feb
7:01 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Ali wrote:
For your 286 machine(s) wouldn't you like a combination of Compaticard,
CatFerret, and option board, to use instead of the existing FDC board?
If this were USB, then it could add floppy back onto some more "modern"
machines. If USB, with appropriate "modern" drivers, no reason why this
couldn't be used for MOST machines.
It could have. But Brown? (not sure whether I remember his name right)
correctly realized that he could make money doing Mac, but there wasn't
enough additional money with Apple2 to even necessarily reimburse him to
hire those programmers.
Exactly. But, I want
to make it clear that there is nothing SPECIAL about
Compaticard; it's simply one of the best, but not unique.
That would make for a very powerful tool but as you
pointed out yourself
how many users would learn to use it? Unless it is a simple driver that
gets loaded and the user has to simply put in a couple of generic
parameters, e.g. "device=c:\drives\emudsk.sys APPLE", and it is up and
running most users won't be able to make use of it.
By the time that I got out (for other reasons), XenoCopy had not been
profitable for a while. THAT handled files, but the user still had to
deal in other ways with modifications that they needed to the content of
the files. Sure, a Wordstar file could be made into a generic text file
by stripping the high bit. But converting WordPervert format codes into
Weird format codes would have required another career.
My preference
would be REAL MODE (DOS).
As would mine but would a 286 be able to do it? And if
you have a
machine that runs real mode DOS why not make use of the HW that is
there? Match Point
could be implemented in software on the Central Point
board.
Great. Then if the DOB HW is duplicated then that part can be SW
and no need to have Match Point HW duplicated. I am surprised the Copy
II PC DOB card did not handle Apple II disks along with Mac
disks. CompatiCard
was just an ordinary FDC, without the crippling corners
cut.
True, but if you are building the ultimate FDC then you don't want
crippling corners cut. So something functionally equivalent. > SO, you are asking for FDC plus flux transition,
but better
> integrated, rather than flux transition hardware interrupting the
> drive cable.
By the time DOB came out, 286 normally had FDC combined with HDD, so my
suggestion to integrate FDC with OB wasn't applicable.
Yes! All on one card. Throw in FDADAP functionality to
properly write 8"
disks and you have a controller that handles most if not all IBM, Apple
II, and Mac disks.
FDADAP is a cabling adapter, plus generating the TG43 signal,
which would
be trivial to do with a conventional FDC. For READING (I hardly never
WROTE), I cabled my 8 inch drives to 34 pin.
As I understand it, in my limited way, having both FM
and MFM should allow for many CP/M formats including SD.
Yes. FM adds 8" SSSD "Standard", TRS80 model 1 (although still problems
writing some address marks), and a handful of others.
Will some formats be left out? Sure.
GCR, hard sector, etc.
My (and I think Chuck's) favorite example for weird is Sirius/Victor 9000.
(80 track GCR, although with its own versions of CP/M-86 and MS-DOS!)
Will it be as powerful as a Kyro
Flux for archiving? Heck no.
But will it let me pop in my original 123
disk and copy it for use with out too much hassle and
work? Of
course.?
There are a few exceptions, such as Pro-lock.Well then
you had
the ENHANCED Deluxe Board. :)
Not necessarily. MANY versions of Pro-lock used the
same identical check
code, so one "crack" beat a lot of them. But some of the better ones
rewrote their own subroutine.
Pro-Lock relied on a physical defect on the disk. Both in terms of
getting an read error trying to read that track, but sometimes even
confirming that WRITING to that track also failed.
They called it a "laser fingerprint", because "a sweatshop where they
scratch disks with a paperclip" doesn't sound as impressive.
Similarly, my Prius has a "LASER CUT key". Yeah. Right. The one that I'm
using right now was cut with a tiny side-mill bit and a pantograph.
> But, in quite a few cases, people have
disassembled (now illegal under
> >DMCA!), found the vulnerabilities and
>simply disabled the copy protection.?
Yes but that is harder and harder to find. They were
never public but
each city had multiple BBSes offering such altered programs. And of
course the other problems w/ this method is you are confined to the one
altered version?? (even if you own a later version). Also there is no
guarantee the alterations will not cause a bug that will crop up later
due to a lack of total testing.
I removed the copy-protection from my [legitimate] copy of 123. So that I
could install it onto machines with different drives.
Sorry, I don't remember where the patch is.
But, is it really that hard to find the patches for the major programs?
I don't doubt your statement; I'm just surprised.
In the mid 1980s, when I had a publisher, they copy protected Xeno-Copy!
It used to be, that if I Googled XenoCopy, many of the hits were for a
patch to remove the copy protection from those early versions. Still are!
I set up my publication of XenoCopy to be unprotected once it was
"installed" (putting user name on title page. Prior to the name going on,
I used a ridiculously simple protection to protect from copying of
unpersonalized copies (just using an inconvenient "feature" of MS-DOS)
Even XenoCopy would freely copy those disks! But DISKCOPY wouldn't.
Although I never had reason to EVER use it, I designed a trivial copy
protection that was copyable to a usable copy with DISKCOPY, but the
original disk could not be read by the Option Board (It relied too much on
index pulse). Once Option Board was stopped, it could have had something
else added to make it inconvenient to copy.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
20 Feb
20 Feb
12:15 a.m.
By the time that I got out (for other reasons),
XenoCopy had not been
profitable for a while. THAT handled files, but the user still had to
deal in other ways with modifications that they needed to the content
of
the files.
True, but at that point that is the user's problem. The idea is simply to
make it easy to get the file or make backups. What someone would do with it
after is their prerogative.
For your 286 machine(s) wouldn't you like a
combination of Compaticard,
CatFerret, and option board, to use instead of the existing FDC board?
Yes. Which is what I keep hoping someone would make. :) As opposed to a
floppy emulating TSR.
If this were USB, then it could add floppy back onto
some more "modern"
machines. If USB, with appropriate "modern" drivers, no reason why
this
couldn't be used for MOST machines.
True, but you need one hell of a SW driver. Also can you even install
unsigned drivers on Win10?
It could have. But Brown? (not sure whether I
remember his name right)
correctly realized that he could make money doing Mac, but there wasn't
enough additional money with Apple2 to even necessarily reimburse him
to
hire those programmers.
If I recall correctly the DOB came out in 1987 so the Apple II market was
still pretty strong. I have an older (don't recall how old) but probably
first series DOB board and on the box they really don't emphasize the Mac
disk aspect. That seemed to come later with the white boxes w/ the rainbow
logo. I had always heard it was because the IBM copy protection market had
fizzled out i.e. the new 5.25" HD disks and the 3.5" disks did not have disk
based copy protection. The Mac thing was a marketing ploy to keep sales
going. Interestingly according to Wikipedia the DOB could read both Mac and
Apple disks. I don't recall that personally and I am not sure even if true
if that applied to Apple II 5.25" disks.
FDADAP is a cabling adapter, plus generating the TG43
signal, which
would
be trivial to do with a conventional FDC. For READING (I hardly never
WROTE), I cabled my 8 inch drives to 34 pin.
True. I have the same setup. However, most FDCs don't provide this (I am not
counting proprietary FDCs like the Flagstaff cards). Even the XT-FDC project
chose not to include the TG43 signal generation on their card. I can't
imagine it would have added that much to the cost of the card and could have
been simply optional components (i.e. only put on if you wanted/needed write
capability). I am not sure if there is a technical reason for it or not but
the Ultimate FDC should not only read but write 8" drives out of the box....
Yes. FM adds 8" SSSD "Standard", TRS80
model 1 (although still
problems
writing some address marks), and a handful of others.
Exactly! I mean I know the Vector 9K will be left out but one must make
sacrifices. Seriously though the card I propose would cover 95% of most
people's needs (archivist and preservationist aside). If the card could be
made to work with Amiga and/or Atari Disks you would almost have nirvana for
99.999% of the users. Yes, a guy like Chuck who needs to recover some
obscure format off of some obscure scientific machine will probably need
something better/more powerful/and more customizable but a plebe like me? I
would be perfectly happy and I wouldn't have to give up two or more slots in
my PC to do it.
Pro-Lock relied on a physical defect on the disk.
Both in terms of
getting an read error trying to read that track, but sometimes even
confirming that WRITING to that track also failed.
I have never owned and Enhanced DOB board but my understanding was that it
defeated Pro-Lock by reading a disk and saving information as to the bad
sector/location. Then when you wanted to run the Pro-Locked disk it would
simply load that info into the Enhanced DOB's memory and it would be served
up when requested by the program.
But, is it really that hard to find the patches for
the major programs?
I don't doubt your statement; I'm just surprised.
What used to be Major programs are now relics of long gone time.
It used to be, that if I Googled XenoCopy, many of the
hits were for a
patch to remove the copy protection from those early versions. Still
are!
I just did this - first two hits are your site. Next two are for
un-protection routines. I am not sure if the second one is legit but the
first one is. However, it suffers from what I had described earlier. It is
specific to version 1.09. So I would either have to have version 1.09 or
somehow find it... Maybe I could write the author and ask for a copy ;)
Frankly, at this point I am less interested in hunting down the one version
that works, or crack that is not a virus or a crack being hosted on some
seedy site with malware galore, or... you get the idea. I like having the
old SW with the manuals and all so that I can actually figure things out and
have something to refer to. That was one of the beauties of SW back in the
day. There was though and effort put into making a manual that taught you
something (aside from using F1 to go online and search the online manual).
If I go to the trouble of finding a copy of something on eBay and buying it
I'd like an easy way to back it up. The DOB board does great for me but I
think most people don't have a DOB and with the ridiculous eBay pricing on
them they will stay a rare commodity... If the function can be built into an
FDC why not?
-Ali
19 Feb
19 Feb
7:42 p.m.
With all deference to the real collectors, I don't see the objective here.
The thing should be NEC 765 compatible? Why? What about non-NEC-based
sytems (e.g. the bulk of CP/M and countless other systems that don't use
an LSI controller)? Or those systems that permanently already have a
controller installed? And you know--not all systems used disks with
standard-length (i.e. power of 2) sectors. (e.g. Zilog MCZ) or oddball
addressing schemes? How about those old Apple II floppy protection
that manipulated the positioner current to land the head *between* tracks?
And other than *reading* the things once, why are we trying to fool with
decaying doughnuts of rusty dust?
Sample the rusty rings, stash the data away for use by analysis. If
amenable to emulation, write a floppy *drive* emulator to match.
Otherwise, you've got the data.
My take on this subject only--but then, I'm mostly concerned about
*reading* dusty rust and preserving the information for future
reference, not recreating the original scenario.
A NEC 765 is pretty limited in what it can do, in the firmament of
floppy formats--I don't even know how to tell it to deal with, say,
132-byte sectors.
Thanks for allowing me to spout my nonsense.
--Chuck
1915
days inactive
1915
days old
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