I've already become convinced the only practical way to preserve it is onto live filesystems that are regularly backed up. The trick is finding an affordable backup system. I think I've finally found one. My idea is to build a Linux box with EIDE RAID setup to mirror a couple BIG EIDE disks (80+ Gigabytes). Then have everything else backup to those disks. I've figured out good ways to backup UNIX (rsync), VMS (BACKUP to an NFS mounted disk should work), and MacOS (Retrospect can backup via FTP). What I've not figured out is a way to backup Windows. Ideally the system would have enough Mirrored diskspace that it would be possible to keep a couple full backups, and a LOT of incremental backups on it. If I set this up, I'd like to also have some sort of tape drive hooked up to periodically backup the data that's been backed up to the system. Zane

"Eric J. Korpela" wrote: But I only have ONE machine with windows. Grrrr -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

Doc wrote: I meant I don't have a LINUX box. Just %$%! windows. When I did use linux, I tend to tar the whole HD to a zip disk. This way if I needed to change HD's it was easy. But alas Linux (debian) does not boot from floppies any more, thus rendering it almost as useless as M$. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

Doc wrote: No It is the recovery disk ( Stupid name ) that is the problem. I used debian 2.0 for my system maintenance. I could shell to a command line and maintain the system. The stupid thing is NOBODY has tar on the system disk. The one thing about dos and few other OS's is that you could use a floppy to maintain the system even if you had a hard drive. I really wish linux was as easy to add drivers as msdos was. I really think computer arctecture is going a step backwards as you have no control over your data, it seems to be owned by M$ or the hardware companies! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

Doc wrote: No ! I want to back my windows system. I don't want CRAP to do simple things like 1) backup my system 2) replace hardware 3) process information. 4) Play games. see OS/9 for how to write a real OS. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

No one seems to be addressing the issue that RAID is well and fine to guard against hardware failure, but it will do *nothing* for file system corruption. And even journalling systems like EXT2 and Reiser-FS don't protect against a 'rm -rf *' as root accidently done. From my perspective, there are two types of backups, working and historical. Historical backups should be cut to involatile media. Paper tape (low density, low availability), and CDROM/DVD. CDROMs may delaminate in 100 years, but they're not going to be erase near a magnetic field, are *far* more reliable than any tapes I've ever used (not to mention portable, in terms of filesystems, namely ISO-9660), and reasonable cheap. Downside, of course, is only ~700MB per disc. CDROM drives will be around for a while. Sure, the same was said for QIC-40 tapes, I'm sure, but we're *aware* that we have historical data on CDROM, and as such, a CDROM drive sits on the shelf for future use. DVD drives have much higher density, but cost more. At this point, I might argue the point that media doesn't seem to be quite as portable as CDROM, but I have far less experience with DVDs. Working backups are the current state of your system. They're not designed to be recovered from in 20 years. They're the tapes you make every night/week/month to gaurd against short term file deletes, hardware crashes, and moving to newer/faster/higher density media (like that new 160GB Maxtor we've all been coveting). I don't trust tapes. Never have. *Every* tape system I've ever used in the last 20 years has, at some point or another, generated a tape that can't be read. Be that bad tape design (QIC tapes), poor tape quality, questionable drives, exposure to magnetic fields, whatever, I've had tapes I can't read. And a tape I can't read might as well be a tape I never wrote. One of my favorite and more cost effective ways to backup is to Ghost or 'dd' copy the drive to an identical device, then take that device out of service. Once a week, I copy my 40GB Maxtor to another 40GB Maxtor. Not perfect, since I usually don't take the 2nd drive off-premises, but since I work where I live (or live where I work, depending on how you look at it), it doesn't get a lot of chance to travel. That's my fault. 40GB of infinitely reusable backup media (for medium sized values of infinite) for < $100 isn't bad. That's the same as 5 DVD platters, and it won't wear out anywhere near as quick. Everyone has a favorite backup scheme. At least, for those people that actually *do* backups. These are just my opinions on a method that has worked well for me. --John

I have a paper tape punch that does Mylar. too bad the density is so low and the cost of Mylar is so high! I too worry about preserving this type of history. I've been playing with my PDP-8 and its software, and I wonder what the oldest existing program that actually runs might be... I once worked with a 3M representative when the company I was working for was getting into CD-ROMS and CD-R's. He claimed that eventually, CD's that are factory made would suffer from moisture migration (same as a chip) unless they used a gold and not aluminum layer. He said that with the formulas available at the time (mid-90's), they thought but would not guarantee that CD-R's would last from 25-100 years if kept in a cool, dark, dry place when not used. I know for certain that the dye formulas have changed since then. Anyone else know more recent data? I own a music CD from the dawn of the CD era (mid-80's?) and it still plays perfectly (although this is no indication of data integrity). At that time, I think they cost maybe $25 and the "jewel box" was so well made you could use it to prop up a table leg! Now you look at them funny and they crack or break. --- "R. D. Davis" &lt;rdd(a)rddavis.org&gt; wrote: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:25:29PM +0100, Stan Barr wrote: I thought the squares program was lost and had to be reconstructed. Also, I'd call the Initial Orders more of an assembler/loader than an OS, since it didn't incldue any subroutines you could use for things like I/O. Eventually they added a library of I/O and math subroutines, some utilities (mostly for debugging), and a fancier version of the Initial Orders that allowed you to decide at load time where subroutines should go. But you still had to decide what subroutines to use and copy them to your input tape. The tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses) program is undoubtedly one of the oldest computer games. -- Derek

Hans B Pufal wrote: I think there was a few algorithmic notes , almost a program for babbage's mill. Since one has a Babbage emulator ( http://www.fourmilab.ch/babbage/contents.html ) and some hardware built in the 1990's is the mill the first or last? historical computer built? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

Hans B Pufal wrote: You are right I did get them confused as the difference engine in more well known. None the less the Difference engine is remarkable mechanical engine. Zuse's Z computers are interesting computer designs because they are http://www.epemag.com/zuse/ -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

Hi, Derek Peschel &lt;dpeschel(a)eskimo.com&gt; said: I was quoting from the listing. However reading the docs for the emulator it says: "It should be emphasiszed that these programs - like almost all of the routines supplied with the Edsac emulator - have not been rewritten, but are historical artifacts. They have been sitting in the original conference proceedings since 1949." Yor're right, of course... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com The future was never like this!