22 Sep
2002
22 Sep
'02
6:20 p.m.
Which kermit mode should be used when transfering files to an RSX-11 system
using kermit, ASCII or BINARY? I realize this is normally based on the type
of the file, but when I xfer task files using BINARY I get this silly "not a
valid task" message when I try to install or run the file.
22 Sep
22 Sep
7 p.m.
Christopher:
It's been some time since I used an RSX11 Kermit,
however...
I believe there's another option on the RSX11 side
called "fixed" as in "binary file fixed record length
of 512 bytes".
You may be ending up with variable record length
binary file or a fixed length record size of 128 bytes
or something like that.
-- Frank
--- Christopher McNabb <NOcmcnabbSPAM(a)4mcnabb.net>
wrote:
Which kermit mode should be used when transfering
files to an RSX-11 system
using kermit, ASCII or BINARY? I realize this is
normally based on the type
of the file, but when I xfer task files using BINARY
I get this silly "not a
valid task" message when I try to install or run the
file.
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23 Sep
23 Sep
6:44 a.m.
--- Clayton Frank Helvey <msspcva(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Christopher:
It's been some time since I used an RSX11 Kermit,
however...
And I never did, but I used VMS Kermit a lot 10-15 years ago, and
the problems/issues are similar (due to the filesystem)
I believe there's another option on the RSX11
side
called "fixed" as in "binary file fixed record length
of 512 bytes".
Yes. Same as VMS. RMS (Record Management Services), a library
that has no equivalent that I know of in UNIX or Windows, understands
record-oriented files, not just sequences of bytes. Text files,
object libraries and tasks/executables are all different.
You may be ending up with variable record length
binary file or a fixed length record size of 128 bytes
or something like that.
Exactly. We used to run into this problem all the time when I was
working customer support at SRC. With many of our customers, it was
faster and simpler to mail them a 9-track tape than talk them through
how to use Kermit (since we typically had to send binary files).
Programs are somewhat easy - as Larry said, 'set file type fixed' on
the RSX end (or both, if appropriate) will tell RSX (or VMS) Kermit
to open the file via RMS to the correct type for a runnable program.
What will give you fits will be .OLB (Object Library) files or any other
kind of file that has a complex record structure (VMS Backup files?)
We resorted to a program called BACKPACK.EXE for VMS. Think of it like
a UUENCODE for RMS files. It converts a binary file to printable ASCII,
including RMS record metadata.
ISTR, BACKPACK.EXE was written in FORTRAN, in case anyone wants to
port it anywhere. Given that it only really helps when moving things
from VMS<->VMS, etc., it probably won't help
you with your problem,
but I wanted to mention it as a period solution to the
worst-case
file transfer problem with complex files on a DEC machine.
--- Christopher McNabb
<NOcmcnabbSPAM(a)4mcnabb.net>
wrote:
> Which kermit mode should be used when transfering
> files to an RSX-11 system using kermit, ASCII or BINARY?
> I realize this is normally based on the type
> of the file, but when I xfer task files using BINARY
> I get this silly "not a valid task" message when I try to
> install or run the file.
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24 Sep
24 Sep
12:48 p.m.
Ethan:
On VMS there was an easier way to transfer files via
kermit and still retain the files' attributes.
The tecnique involved using VMS' backup utility to
create a backup file save set with a record length of
8192 bytes and group=0 (no redundancy groups). You
transfer that file over to the other system in fixed
file mode - the result is a 512 byte record length
binary file.
You then on that system create a small backup save set
with the same record size of 8192 bytes, and use
copy/overlay to copy the transferred file over that
newly created backup saveset. Viola, VMS recreates
the file from the first system with the proper record
structure, and you can then use backup/restore to get
the files you transferred out and put them to use.
Particularly useful when transferring Stream_LF file
types I recall.
-- Frank
--- Ethan Dicks <erd_6502(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
--- Clayton Frank Helvey <msspcva(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
=====
= M O N T V A L E S O F T W A R E S E R V I C E S P. C.=
Clayton Frank Helvey, President
Montvale Software Services, P. C.
P.O. Box 840
Blue Ridge, VA 24064-0840
Phone: 540.947.5364 Email: msspcva(a)yahoo.com
============================================================
__________________________________________________
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Christopher:
It's been some time since I used an RSX11 Kermit,
however...
And I never did, but I used VMS Kermit a lot 10-15
years ago, and
the problems/issues are similar (due to the
filesystem)
I believe there's another option on the RSX11
side
called "fixed" as in "binary file fixed record
length
of 512 bytes".
Yes. Same as VMS. RMS (Record Management
Services), a library
that has no equivalent that I know of in UNIX or
Windows, understands
record-oriented files, not just sequences of bytes.
Text files,
object libraries and tasks/executables are all
different.
You may be ending up with variable record length
binary file or a fixed length record size of 128
bytes
or something like that.
Exactly. We used to run into this problem all the
time when I was
working customer support at SRC. With many of our
customers, it was
faster and simpler to mail them a 9-track tape than
talk them through
how to use Kermit (since we typically had to send
binary files).
Programs are somewhat easy - as Larry said, 'set
file type fixed' on
the RSX end (or both, if appropriate) will tell RSX
(or VMS) Kermit
to open the file via RMS to the correct type for a
runnable program.
What will give you fits will be .OLB (Object
Library) files or any other
kind of file that has a complex record structure
(VMS Backup files?)
We resorted to a program called BACKPACK.EXE for
VMS. Think of it like
a UUENCODE for RMS files. It converts a binary file
to printable ASCII,
including RMS record metadata.
ISTR, BACKPACK.EXE was written in FORTRAN, in case
anyone wants to
port it anywhere. Given that it only really helps
when moving things
from VMS<->VMS, etc., it probably won't help you
with your problem,
but I wanted to mention it as a period solution to
the worst-case
file transfer problem with complex files on a DEC
machine.
--- Christopher McNabb
<NOcmcnabbSPAM(a)4mcnabb.net>
wrote:
> Which kermit mode should be used when
transfering
> files to an RSX-11 system using kermit,
ASCII or
BINARY?
> I realize this is normally based on the
type
> of the file, but when I xfer task files using
BINARY
> I get this silly "not a valid
task" message when
I try to
> install or run the file.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
7 p.m.
--- Clayton Frank Helvey <msspcva(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Ethan:
On VMS there was an easier way to transfer files via
kermit and still retain the files' attributes.
The tecnique involved using VMS' backup utility to
create a backup file save set with a record length of
8192 bytes and group=0...
Interesting. That sounds like it work work perfectly,
from a technical standpoint. I'm not sure I would
have
wanted to explain any of that to our customers (but in
those many cases where they gave us dial-in access to fix
problems... ;-)
We had one manager call us because his technical guy was
out. I told him he we needed to look at the log files. I
said he needed to type "DIR HASP:*.LGA". It went like
this:
Me: Type 'dee, eye, arr, space, aych, aye, ess, pee, colon,
star, dot, ell, gee, aye, return.
PHB: Star... that's the one over the '8' key, right?
Me (to myself): maybe he calls it something else?!?
Me (to customer): Yes. That's the one.
PHB: Colon... that's the one with the little tail, right?
Me: Umm... no. That's a semi-colon. You need the other one.
The call went down-hill fast. This guy couldn't manage English
literacy, let alone computer literacy. His self-assumed title
was the "Network Manager".
We gave our customers BACKPACK. That was easier to talk them
through than other ideas we had.
-ethan
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7:05 p.m.
At 02:49 PM 24/09/2002 -0700, Clayton Frank Helvey wrote:
Ethan:
On VMS there was an easier way to transfer files via
kermit and still retain the files' attributes.
The tecnique involved using VMS' backup utility to
create a backup file save set with a record length of
8192 bytes and group=0 (no redundancy groups). You
transfer that file over to the other system in fixed
file mode - the result is a 512 byte record length
binary file.
You then on that system create a small backup save set
with the same record size of 8192 bytes, and use
copy/overlay to copy the transferred file over that
newly created backup saveset. Viola, VMS recreates
the file from the first system with the proper record
structure, and you can then use backup/restore to get
the files you transferred out and put them to use.
With slightly more recent versions of OpenVMS you don't have
to do the copy/overlay trick, you can use the set file
command to change the file attributes instead. Before this
functionality was added there were programs around that
allowed you to "fix" backup savesets that had been transferred
via kermit (or ftp for that matter).
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
9:23 p.m.
Clayton Frank Helvey wrote:
Ethan:
On VMS there was an easier way to transfer files via
kermit and still retain the files' attributes.
The tecnique involved using VMS' backup utility to
create a backup file save set with a record length of
8192 bytes and group=0 (no redundancy groups). You
transfer that file over to the other system in fixed
file mode - the result is a 512 byte record length
binary file.
You then on that system create a small backup save set
with the same record size of 8192 bytes, and use
copy/overlay to copy the transferred file over that
newly created backup saveset. Viola, VMS recreates
the file from the first system with the proper record
structure, and you can then use backup/restore to get
the files you transferred out and put them to use.
Particularly useful when transferring Stream_LF file
types I recall..
If more information is needed, then the 'DCL Dialogue'
columns are all on line, and the August 1991 column
describes this technique (complete with viola!).
The columns can be found at http://www.kgb.com/dcl.html,
and the specific column is located at
http://www.kgb.com/dcl/199108.txt.
Happy reading,
Dave.
29 Sep
29 Sep
2:56 p.m.
After some interesting remarks about transferring binary files, VMS,
BACKUP, and some nifty utilities, back to the original question.
The correct mode to transfer RSX task files is either BINARY or FIXED.
According to my copy of the PDP-11 Kermit User Guide, Version 3.58
(Sept. 1987), SET FILE TYPE BINARY is equivalent to SET FILE TYPE FIXED.
After transmitting SOME.TSK file, you need to make the file contiguous
again on the target system: PIP /CO/NV=SOME.TSK will do the trick.
Andreas
Christopher McNabb schrieb:
Which kermit mode should be used when transfering files to an RSX-11 system
using kermit, ASCII or BINARY? I realize this is normally based on the type
of the file, but when I xfer task files using BINARY I get this silly "not a
valid task" message when I try to install or run the file.
8042
days inactive
8049
days old
7 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Andreas.Freiherr＠Vishay.com -
dave＠naffnet.org.uk -
erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
Huw.Davies＠kerberos.davies.net.au -
msspcva＠yahoo.com -
NOcmcnabbSPAM＠4mcnabb.net