4 Apr
2020
4 Apr
'20
7:54 p.m.
Okay, I've only ever been a user, back in high school, of HP 2000F TSB
system but wanted to play with it again and learn more about the system.
I've been able set up Simh with 2000F TSB and everything is working
fine. Using the latest release I can find out there, HP2100 release 29.
Now I'd like to be able to install some of the Contributed Software
Library but despite reading the various TSB manuals and Simh doc, I've
been unable to actually get anything loaded.
Can anyone with experience with this lend me a hand, some tutorial or
point the way to some instructions I may have missed?
Thanks in advance.
David Williams
5 Apr
5 Apr
9:41 p.m.
On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 21:54, David Williams via cctech wrote:
I've been able set up Simh with 2000F TSB and
everything is working
fine. Using the latest release I can find out there, HP2100 release
29. Now I'd like to be able to install some of the Contributed
Software Library but despite reading the various TSB manuals and Simh
doc, I've been unable to actually get anything loaded.
My acquaintance with the HP Time-Shared BASICs is only passing, and you
didn't mention where you picked up the CSL image, but the ones at Bitsavers
appear to be selective dumps of various accounts. For those, you'd want to
do a selective load of the desired files from the tape image.
If you're using the 2000F kit from the trailing-edge site, you can use the
"tsb-man" startup file to begin a manual system startup. You'd answer the
startup questions as follows:
CONFIGURATION OPTIONS? YES
NUMBER OF PORTS? <just press ENTER>
LOAD OR DUMP COMMANDS? LOAD
ENTER NAME LIST, ONE PER LINE; TERMINATE WITH 'END'
At this point, mount the CSL tape on the tape drive and then enter the
account and file names of the files you wish to restore. When you enter
the END command, the system will load the named accounts or files from the
tape.
The process is described on pages 4-19 through 4-22 in the "HP 20854A
Timeshared BASIC/2000, Level F System Operator's Manual" (HP part number
02000-90074, Nov-1974) that is available from Bitsavers.
One caveat: I don't know, but I suspect that the selective dump tapes are
version-specific, i.e., one for 2000 Access won't work on 2000F. I don't
know with which systems the Bitsavers tapes are compatible.
Thanks in advance.
You're welcome.
Feel free to contact me directly I can clarify anything.
-- Dave
6 Apr
6 Apr
2:20 a.m.
For? some? reason I? do not? remember having to enter each and every? file? name? to load?
it? in?to a real 2000f? ?but? then again it? has? been 40 years!? Ed#
In a message dated 4/6/2020 2:12:42 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org
writes:
On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 21:54, David Williams via cctech wrote:
I've been able set up Simh with 2000F TSB and
everything is working
fine. Using the latest release I can find out there, HP2100 release
29. Now I'd like to be able to install some of the Contributed
Software Library but despite reading the various TSB manuals and Simh
doc, I've been unable to actually get anything loaded.
My acquaintance with the HP Time-Shared BASICs is only passing, and you
didn't mention where you picked up the CSL image, but the ones at Bitsavers
appear to be selective dumps of various accounts.? For those, you'd want to
do a selective load of the desired files from the tape image.
If you're using the 2000F kit from the trailing-edge site, you can use the
"tsb-man" startup file to begin a manual system startup.? You'd answer the
startup questions as follows:
? CONFIGURATION OPTIONS? YES
? NUMBER OF PORTS? <just press ENTER>
? LOAD OR DUMP COMMANDS? LOAD
? ENTER NAME LIST, ONE PER LINE; TERMINATE WITH 'END'
At this point, mount the CSL tape on the tape drive and then enter the
account and file names of the files you wish to restore.? When you enter
the END command, the system will load the named accounts or files from the
tape.
The process is described on pages 4-19 through 4-22 in the "HP 20854A
Timeshared BASIC/2000, Level F System Operator's Manual" (HP part number
02000-90074, Nov-1974) that is available from Bitsavers.
One caveat: I don't know, but I suspect that the selective dump tapes are
version-specific, i.e., one for 2000 Access won't work on 2000F.? I don't
know with which systems the Bitsavers tapes are compatible.
Thanks in advance.
You're welcome.
Feel free to contact me directly I can clarify anything.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Dave
11:39 a.m.
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:20, ED SHARPE via cctech wrote:
For? some? reason I? do not? remember having to enter
each and every?
file? name? to load? it? in?to a real 2000f? ?but? then again it? has?
been 40 years!
You can enter just the account names, which will restore all of the dumped
files for those accounts. 2000 Access lets you enter ALL to restore all
accounts from the tape, but I don't think that 2000F has that option.
-- Dave
12:07 p.m.
you? said - "You can enter just the account names"
OK? that is the? way? I? remember? it!
In a message dated 4/6/2020 11:39:21 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at
classiccmp.org writes:
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:20, ED SHARPE via cctech wrote:
For? some? reason I? do not? remember having to enter
each and every?
file? name? to load? it? in?to a real 2000f? ?but? then again it? has?
been 40 years!
You can enter just the account names, which will restore all of the dumped
files for those accounts.? 2000 Access lets you enter ALL to restore all
accounts from the tape, but I don't think that 2000F has that option.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Dave
11:47 a.m.
On 2020-04-05 23:41, J. David Bryan wrote:
My acquaintance with the HP Time-Shared BASICs is only
passing, and you
didn't mention where you picked up the CSL image, but the ones at
Bitsavers
appear to be selective dumps of various accounts. For those, you'd
want to
do a selective load of the desired files from the tape image.
If you're using the 2000F kit from the trailing-edge site, you can use
the
"tsb-man" startup file to begin a manual system startup. You'd answer
the
startup questions as follows:
CONFIGURATION OPTIONS? YES
NUMBER OF PORTS? <just press ENTER>
LOAD OR DUMP COMMANDS? LOAD
ENTER NAME LIST, ONE PER LINE; TERMINATE WITH 'END'
At this point, mount the CSL tape on the tape drive and then enter the
account and file names of the files you wish to restore. When you
enter
the END command, the system will load the named accounts or files from
the
tape.
Okay that is pretty much what I had been trying. Glad to know I haven't
lost the ability to read a manual in my old age. Beginning to think the
copy on Bitsavers isn't compatible. The first few tries I didn't see any
messages, it just went on to the enter date and time and start up but
when I'd check the account's directory there was nothing there. The last
couple of times I tried I did get a message about something unsupported
and listed something about 200 vs 1500 iirc (block size??). It asked if
I wanted to take responsibility and continue which I said yes but still
nothing appeared to be restored.
I'm using the stock system from http://simh.trailing-edge.com/hp/ with
the 2000F TSB software kit from there as well. There is nothing but a
couple of test programs installed with that setup. The CSL tape image
comes from Bitsavers as well and was the only copy I've found. It is
listed as the 2000F CSL so figured it was compatible. Could the Simh
hardware configuration in the default set up need to be changed? Looked
like you could simulate different tape drives.
One caveat: I don't know, but I suspect that the
selective dump tapes
are
version-specific, i.e., one for 2000 Access won't work on 2000F. I
don't
know with which systems the Bitsavers tapes are compatible.
I assumed so as well, I have another tape image I know is from a 2000
Access system and didn't bother to try it.
Best,
David Williams
2:29 p.m.
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 13:47, David Williams via cctech wrote:
The first few tries I didn't see any messages, it
just went on to the
enter date and time and start up but when I'd check the account's
directory there was nothing there.
As I noted, I'm not that familiar with TSB (I'm an RTE guy). But you might
have to create the desired accounts with the "NEW" sysop command before you
can restore to them.
The last couple of times I tried I did get a message
about something
unsupported and listed something about 200 vs 1500 iirc (block
size??).
Feature level codes, I think.
It asked if I wanted to take responsibility and
continue which I said
yes but still nothing appeared to be restored.
Pages 4-21 and 4-22 of the Access operator's manual (22687-90005, July
1976) say:
Each system is assigned a Feature Level Code identifying the level of
features it supports. Currently, codes are assigned as follows:
Feature Level Code
----------------------------------- ----
2000/C (High-Speed Option) 200
2000/F (All Options) 200
HP 2000 Operating System, Release A 1000
HP 2000 Operating System, Release B 2000
Normally, systems with Feature Level Codes of 1000 or greater cannot
access tapes from systems with Feature Level Codes of less than 1000
and vice versa. For exceptions to this rule, refer to conversion
information in Appendix F.
If the tape reported a feature level code of 1500, then I'd think it was an
Access tape.
Access does come with a conversion program, described in Appendix F of the
above manual, that allows one to dump Access programs in 2000F format.
Presumably, you could load the CSL tape into an Access system and then dump
the programs to a 2000F tape that could be read into the latter system.
I've never tried this myself, though.
Another possibility, if you can get listings of the CSL programs you want,
is to copy-and-paste the source into a logged-in user terminal window
session.
The CSL tape image comes from Bitsavers as well and
was the only copy
I've found. It is listed as the 2000F CSL so figured it was
compatible.
Which specific tape are you using? Bitsavers shows three CSL tapes under
/bits/hp/tapes/2000tsb, but they all seem to be feature level 1500.
Could the Simh hardware configuration in the default
set up need to be
changed?
I don't think that's it. Those couple of test programs installed with the
software kit are loaded from a selective dump magnetic tape image as part
of the sysgen process, so the DUMP and LOAD commands do work with the
hardware setup.
-- Dave
4:30 p.m.
On 2020-04-06 16:29, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote:
As I noted, I'm not that familiar with TSB
(I'm an RTE guy). But you
might
have to create the desired accounts with the "NEW" sysop command before
you
can restore to them.
Yes I created the accounts first and after I thought the tapes loaded I
logged in to them to check for the files which weren't there.
Feature level codes, I think.
Pages 4-21 and 4-22 of the Access operator's manual (22687-90005, July
1976) say:
Each system is assigned a Feature Level Code identifying the level
of
features it supports. Currently, codes are assigned as follows:
Feature Level Code
----------------------------------- ----
2000/C (High-Speed Option) 200
2000/F (All Options) 200
HP 2000 Operating System, Release A 1000
HP 2000 Operating System, Release B 2000
Normally, systems with Feature Level Codes of 1000 or greater cannot
access tapes from systems with Feature Level Codes of less than 1000
and vice versa. For exceptions to this rule, refer to conversion
information in Appendix F.
If the tape reported a feature level code of 1500, then I'd think it
was an
Access tape.
Access does come with a conversion program, described in Appendix F of
the
above manual, that allows one to dump Access programs in 2000F format.
Presumably, you could load the CSL tape into an Access system and then
dump
the programs to a 2000F tape that could be read into the latter system.
I've never tried this myself, though.
Looking over the manual I think I'll give this a try, easy enough to
bring up a new instance of an Access system, try and load the tape on
there and then dump it with the conversion program. Use to have an
Access based system running but removed it a couple of computers back.
Another possibility, if you can get listings of the
CSL programs you
want,
is to copy-and-paste the source into a logged-in user terminal window
session.
Thought about this too but as I'm trying to get as much of a set up
similar to what I had in high school, there are a lot of the programs to
load and copy/paste would be a pain. Prefer to try and get the tape
converted to something I can work with on the 2000F.
Which specific tape are you using? Bitsavers shows
three CSL tapes
under
/bits/hp/tapes/2000tsb, but they all seem to be feature level 1500.
The text files in there appear to label all the CSL tapes there as
feature level 1500 so it would appear that it doesn't matter which I
try.
I'll bring up a new Access system and give the conversion program a try.
David Williams
6:39 p.m.
On 2020-04-06 18:30, David Williams via cctalk wrote:
On 2020-04-06 16:29, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote:
Could use a little help with this. I have a new 2000/Access system up
and running and have successfully loaded an account from the CSL tape so
that appears to be all good. Looking at the doc for running the
conversion program it tells me I need to load the Master Tape which I
locate without issue. The problem I'm having is to load it I have to:
1) Press HALT and PRESET
- okay not an issue following the guide gives me the commands to do
that
2) Select the S-register and clear the display. Set bits 15 and 0. Set
bits 11 through 6 to the low number (high priority) octal select code of
the magnetic tape device controller.
- Bit more of an issue for me as I'm not sure what value to enter for
the tape device. Looking at the included .sim files I used the DEPOSIT
command with what I thought was it and setting bits 15 and 0 as
indicated but don't think I had it right.
3) Select the A-register and clear the display. Set bit 0. Press STORE
and IBL. The contents of the magnetic tape loader ROM are loaded into
memory.
- Here it stops. The doc says to use the "LOAD CPU" command to simulate
pressing the IBL button but when I do I just get "Command not allowed".
Not sure it I even have the right value in the S-register to begin with
of course but Simh doesn't seem to want to let me "press IBL"
Any ideas?
David Williams
Access does come with a conversion program,
described in Appendix F of
the
above manual, that allows one to dump Access programs in 2000F format.
Presumably, you could load the CSL tape into an Access system and then
dump
the programs to a 2000F tape that could be read into the latter
system.
I've never tried this myself, though.
Looking over the manual I think I'll give this a try, easy enough to
bring up a new instance of an Access system, try and load the tape on
there and then dump it with the conversion program. Use to have an
Access based system running but removed it a couple of computers back.
8:59 p.m.
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 20:39, David Williams via cctalk wrote:
The problem I'm having is to load it I have to:
[...]
2) Select the S-register and clear the display. Set bits 15 and 0. Set
bits 11 through 6 to the low number (high priority) octal select code of
the magnetic tape device controller.
- Bit more of an issue for me as I'm not sure what value to enter for
the tape device.
The included "spconfig.inc" file indicates that the tape interface is
assigned to select codes 16 and 17. So the command you want is:
DEPOSIT S 101601
3) Select the A-register and clear the display. Set
bit 0. Press STORE
and IBL. The contents of the magnetic tape loader ROM are loaded into
memory.
- Here it stops. The doc says to use the "LOAD CPU" command to simulate
pressing the IBL button but when I do I just get "Command not allowed".
The LOAD CPU command is not allowed unless the CPU is configured as a
21MX-series machine. By default (meaning unless you've changed it since
starting the simulator), it is configured as a 2116, which does not have
loader ROMs. So doing this after setting the S-register would work:
SET CPU 21MX
DEPOSIT A 000001
LOAD CPU
However, if the CPU isn't configured for Access, then probably the I/O
devices aren't configured for Access as well. The initial SIMH startup
settings have to be changed to rearrange things to where Access expects
them to be.
The simplest way to set up the proper configuration and then load the
Master Control Program is to modify the existing "tsb-reload.sim" file.
First, copy it to a new file named "tsb-convert.sim". Then edit the latter
by locating the line that says:
go until "LOAD WHICH MODULE? " ; reply "%DISC%\r"
Delete this line and all of the remaining lines in the file. Then append
the command:
go
...to the end, so that the last two lines of the file read:
go until "2754? " ; reply "YES\r"
go
Save the file and then run it:
hp2100 tsb-convert
The script will start up the IOP (I don't know if it's necessary in this
case, but it's harmless) and then print:
Waiting for the IOP to complete its initialization...
Programmed halt, T: 102077 (HLT 77), P: 77756 (ALF,ALF)
2754? YES
LOAD WHICH MODULE?
...on the system console. Enter CONVERT, and then follow the remaining
instructions in the sysop manual. Note that the default uses an HP 7905
disc drive for the system disc, so the question:
DISC-0 A 7905 OR A 7920?
...should be answered YES.
-- Dave
9:53 p.m.
On 2020-04-06 22:59, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
The manual lists two paths, one for 21MX processors and one for 2100
processors. Looking at the notes I thought it was configured as 21MX
already so was trying that path.
The included "spconfig.inc" file indicates that the tape interface is
assigned to select codes 16 and 17. So the command you want is:
DEPOSIT S 101601
Okay I was only slightly off...
3) Select the
A-register and clear the display. Set bit 0. Press STORE
and IBL. The contents of the magnetic tape loader ROM are loaded into
memory.
- Here it stops. The doc says to use the "LOAD CPU" command to
simulate
pressing the IBL button but when I do I just get "Command not
allowed".
The LOAD CPU command is not allowed unless the CPU is configured as a
21MX-series machine. By default (meaning unless you've changed it
since
starting the simulator), it is configured as a 2116, which does not
have
loader ROMs. So doing this after setting the S-register would work:
SET CPU 21MX
DEPOSIT A 000001
LOAD CPU However, if the CPU isn't configured for Access,
then probably the I/O
devices aren't configured for Access as well. The initial SIMH startup
settings have to be changed to rearrange things to where Access expects
them to be.
Access is set up and running fine already so things should have already
been configured for it I'd have thought.
The simplest way to set up the proper configuration
and then load the
Master Control Program is to modify the existing "tsb-reload.sim" file.
First, copy it to a new file named "tsb-convert.sim". Then edit the
latter
by locating the line that says:
go until "LOAD WHICH MODULE? " ; reply "%DISC%\r"
Delete this line and all of the remaining lines in the file. Then
append
the command:
go
..to the end, so that the last two lines of the file read:
go until "2754? " ; reply "YES\r"
go
Save the file and then run it:
hp2100 tsb-convert
The script will start up the IOP (I don't know if it's necessary in
this
case, but it's harmless) and then print:
Waiting for the IOP to complete its initialization...
Programmed halt, T: 102077 (HLT 77), P: 77756 (ALF,ALF)
2754? YES
LOAD WHICH MODULE?
..on the system console. Enter CONVERT, and then follow the remaining
instructions in the sysop manual. Note that the default uses an HP
7905
disc drive for the system disc, so the question:
DISC-0 A 7905 OR A 7920?
..should be answered YES.
-- Dave
Getting a bit late here right now so I'll have to try this or
investigate the 2100 processor instructions in the morning.
Thank you for your help so far.
David Williams
10:32 p.m.
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 23:53, David Williams via cctalk wrote:
Access is set up and running fine already so things
should have already
been configured for it I'd have thought.
The simulator executable always starts up with a default hardware
configuration (a 32K 2116 CPU, no extra firmware, and every possible I/O
interface card assigned somewhere in the I/O space). The supplied
simulator command files change that default to match the Access (or 2000F,
etc.) hardware requirements, but the changes are not sticky across
sessions. So restarting the simulator reverts to the default
configuration.
In other words, running the simulator with "hp2100" gets you the default
configuration. Running with "hp2100 tsb-auto" (e.g.) starts with the
default, and then the "tsb-auto.sim" command file execution changes it to
match the TSB requirements before bootstrapping the system.
Thank you for your help so far.
You're welcome.
-- Dave
7 Apr
7 Apr
11:19 a.m.
First I want to say again how much I appreciate your assistance. Up
until now my only experience with this system was as a HS student first
learning to program and never had any access to the system outside of
that. Learning a lot reading the manuals for the system as well as the
doc on Simh and from you.
On 2020-04-07 00:32, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
The simulator executable always starts up with a
default hardware
configuration (a 32K 2116 CPU, no extra firmware, and every possible
I/O
interface card assigned somewhere in the I/O space). The supplied
simulator command files change that default to match the Access (or
2000F,
etc.) hardware requirements, but the changes are not sticky across
sessions. So restarting the simulator reverts to the default
configuration.
In other words, running the simulator with "hp2100" gets you the
default
configuration. Running with "hp2100 tsb-auto" (e.g.) starts with the
default, and then the "tsb-auto.sim" command file execution changes it
to
match the TSB requirements before bootstrapping the system.
Okay that was interesting and makes sense.
I tried your "tsb-convert.sim" suggestion and instructions from earlier
and where it did work to an extent, I'm now beginning to think it won't
work in my case.
I have Access up and running and restored account Z905 (the games) as a
test. Then used the suggested "tsb-convert.sim" to dump that to a tape
file. Moved that to my 2000F system and restored it. I ended up with
only 1 file and not all the contents of the catalog.
Looking at the Access doc on the conversion program's dump command I
noticed it says it dumps 2000/Access "BASIC formatted files" which the
one file I was able to transfer is where the others are not.
Looking through the manuals to see if there is a different way to save
the programs that could work but don't see anything yet.
Haven't looked into punch tape with Simh, is that working? Not sure
punching each program and reloading into the 2000F would be any better
than copy/paste though.
Open to any other ideas for getting a bunch of programs back to a 2000F
system... will continue to pour through all the doc I have.
David Williams
12:36 p.m.
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 13:19, David Williams via cctech wrote:
First I want to say again how much I appreciate your
assistance.
You're very welcome.
Up until now my only experience with this system was
as a HS student
first learning to program and never had any access to the system
outside of that. Learning a lot reading the manuals for the system as
well as the doc on Simh and from you.
Prior to SIMH, my experience with TSB had been limited to running an HP
contributed library program, "HP 2000F BASIC FOR DOS-M/DOS III," on an HP
1000 M-Series running DOS-III (circa 1975). Only with simulation have I
been able to expand my experience, both as a user and as a sysop, to
include running the C-prime, E, F, and Access versions of TSB.
Looking at the Access doc on the conversion
program's dump command I
noticed it says it dumps 2000/Access "BASIC formatted files" which the
one file I was able to transfer is where the others are not.
Oops.
Looking through the manuals to see if there is a
different way to save
the programs that could work but don't see anything yet.
I had wondered. HP BASICs store their programs in transliterated form,
i.e., substituting table index numbers for statement keywords, operators,
etc. So, for example, a "10 PRINT" statement gets stored internally as two
integers -- the line number, and an index into the keyword table. A "LIST"
command reconstructs the text representation from the internal form.
So were you to load a program into 2000F that uses an Access feature, the
stored statement keyword index would be beyond the end of the 2000F table.
Running or listing that program would then either fail (best case) or send
the interpreter into the weeds (probable case). That's the origin of the
feature code comparison and the warning that if you proceed with the load,
you take responsibility for the cleanup.
Haven't looked into punch tape with Simh, is that
working?
The system paper tape reader and punch (simulator devices PTR and PTP) work
under Access. You can use the Access PUNCH command with the "OUT="
redirection option to output to the system punch device; the result is a
plain-text file listing of your program, albeit with a bunch of NULs for
tape leader and trailer.
You could do almost the same thing by listing your program to the system
line printer; this results in a plain-text file, with some extra blank
lines to divide the output into pages.
Unfortunately, while 2000F has a working system tape reader, TSB does not
provide a way for users to read programs from it. It's used only for
bootstrapping the system.
Both Access and F allow the user to input programs by using the paper tape
reader that's part of the ASR 33 Teletype. But the simulated terminal
multiplexer supports only KSR 33 models (no punch or reader).
Not sure punching each program and reloading into the
2000F would be
any better than copy/paste though.
Depending on your host system and Telnet client, you should be able to copy
an entire text file and paste it into a logged-in TSB session terminal
emulator in a single operation. It's not necessary to copy-and-paste each
line. So it shouldn't be too difficult to employ this method -- maybe just
tedious.
2000F provide the TAPE and KEY commands to suppress and then re-enable any
diagnostic messages generated by the intervening program input. They may
be useful if the programs you're pasting might have Access-only features
that would cause errors when entered.
Open to any other ideas for getting a bunch of
programs back to a 2000F
system...
There's an HP 2000 users' group at:
https://groups.io/g/hp2000family
They might have some additional ideas or know where to locate a compatible
CSL tape.
-- Dave
4:28 p.m.
On 2020-04-07 14:36, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote:
Both Access and F allow the user to input programs by
using the paper
tape
reader that's part of the ASR 33 Teletype. But the simulated terminal
multiplexer supports only KSR 33 models (no punch or reader).
ASR 33 is what we used in HS. Still have a box of paper tapes from back
then that I suspect I'll never be able to do anything with again but the
pack rat in me refuses to let go. Every so often I consider trying to
decode them again.
For now I'll probably cut/paste a few of the CSL programs I'm most
interested in and go from there I suppose.
There's an HP 2000 users' group at:
https://groups.io/g/hp2000family
They might have some additional ideas or know where to locate a
compatible
CSL tape.
That's the old Yahoo group isn't it? I had joined them on Yahoo years
ago but never did much there.
Any other suggestions of interesting operating systems or software to
try out besides TSB? Interesting development environments or uncommon or
unusual languages tend to grab my interest. Not sure what all was
available for the hardware.
David Williams
4:35 p.m.
yes old? yahoo? group? but? the io? group looks? dead>ed#
In a message dated 4/7/2020 4:29:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org
writes:
That's the old Yahoo group isn't it? I had joined them on Yahoo years
ago but never did much there.
Any other suggestions of interesting operating systems or software to
try out besides TSB? Interesting development environments or uncommon or
unusual languages tend to grab my interest. Not sure what all was
available for the hardware.
David Williams
7:36 p.m.
David wrote...
Any other suggestions of interesting operating systems or software to try
out besides TSB? Interesting development environments or uncommon or unusual
languages tend to grab my interest. Not sure what all was available for the
hardware.
----------
Yes. http://newton.freehostia.com/hp/hpiplos.html#about
j
10:26 p.m.
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 18:28, David Williams via cctalk wrote:
Still have a box of paper tapes from back then that I
suspect I'll
never be able to do anything with again but the pack rat in me refuses
to let go. Every so often I consider trying to decode them again.
Assuming that your tapes are sources, there are several folks with
operational HP 21xx/1000 computers who probably have paper-tape-reading
capability. Dumping the tape to a PC-hosted terminal emulator can capture
the text into a host-PC file, which can then be loaded into the simulator
via the simulated paper tape reader. So I wouldn't discard them just yet.
I had retained a stack of 1/2" mag tape dumps of our company RTE system
holding all of the programs I had written over a period of twenty years or
so. A fellow enthusiast in my area (Mike Gemeny) kindly copied them to
SIMH-compatible tape images, which I was then able to use to recreate our
company system under simulation.
That's the old Yahoo group isn't it?
It is. I think they were migrating from Yahoo to the groups.io site.
Any other suggestions of interesting operating systems
or software to
try out besides TSB? Interesting development environments or uncommon
or unusual languages tend to grab my interest.
The RTE (Real-Time Executive) family of operating systems had a long run at
HP -- from about 1968 through 2005 or so, with a dozen or so variants from
simple to sophisticated. Languages supported included the HP assembler,
FORTRAN IV, ALGOL 60 (partial), BASIC, Fortran 77, and Pascal. The RTE-II
software kit on the HP simulator site has the assembler and FORTRAN IV
compiler preloaded, and it's easy to add the ALGOL compiler from the HP
software collection on Bitsavers. Fortran 77 and Pascal required later
versions of RTE (I intend to get kits posted for these before too long).
Perhaps most interesting to me is a SNOBOL3 interpreter in the HP
contributed library that ran under the DOS-III operating system. It was
written by HP Grenoble, and all of the prompts and error messages were in
French. I used it to write a runoff clone way back when. Still have my
"SNOBOL3 Primer" by Allen Forte (MIT Press, 1968) sitting on my bookshelf.
-- Dave
8 Apr
8 Apr
11:42 a.m.
On 2020-04-08 00:26, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
Assuming that your tapes are sources, there are
several folks with
operational HP 21xx/1000 computers who probably have paper-tape-reading
capability. Dumping the tape to a PC-hosted terminal emulator can
capture
the text into a host-PC file, which can then be loaded into the
simulator
via the simulated paper tape reader. So I wouldn't discard them just
yet.
They won't be discarded until my kids decide that all this crazy stuff
they inherited isn't meaningful enough to them to keep around. :)
I had retained a stack of 1/2" mag tape dumps of
our company RTE system
holding all of the programs I had written over a period of twenty years
or
so. A fellow enthusiast in my area (Mike Gemeny) kindly copied them to
SIMH-compatible tape images, which I was then able to use to recreate
our
company system under simulation.
I have some old tapes from my Honeywell 66/60 GCOS days that I sometimes
wonder if I could still get dumped. No idea what is even on them any
more. I've brought up the DPS8 emulator with Multics but to be able to
actually run my old GCOS again would be a dream come true.
The RTE (Real-Time Executive) family of operating
systems had a long
run at
HP -- from about 1968 through 2005 or so, with a dozen or so variants
from
simple to sophisticated. Languages supported included the HP
assembler,
FORTRAN IV, ALGOL 60 (partial), BASIC, Fortran 77, and Pascal. The
RTE-II
software kit on the HP simulator site has the assembler and FORTRAN IV
compiler preloaded, and it's easy to add the ALGOL compiler from the HP
software collection on Bitsavers. Fortran 77 and Pascal required later
versions of RTE (I intend to get kits posted for these before too
long).
Perhaps most interesting to me is a SNOBOL3 interpreter in the HP
contributed library that ran under the DOS-III operating system. It
was
written by HP Grenoble, and all of the prompts and error messages were
in
French. I used it to write a runoff clone way back when. Still have
my
"SNOBOL3 Primer" by Allen Forte (MIT Press, 1968) sitting on my
bookshelf.
Ah SNOBOL... I discovered that language shortly before graduating HS and
always wanted to play around with it but never had an instillation where
I could. ALGOL as well. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll check some of
that out too.
Thanks.
David Williams
8:47 p.m.
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 13:42, David Williams via cctalk wrote:
I have some old tapes from my Honeywell 66/60 GCOS
days that I
sometimes wonder if I could still get dumped.
A number of folks have 800 NRZI/1600 PE/6250 GCR 1.2-inch tape drives
connected to PCs via SCSI interfaces that can be used to copy physical
tapes to SIMH tape images. You might ask on this list to see if someone in
your area can accommodate you.
Ah SNOBOL... I discovered that language shortly before
graduating HS
and always wanted to play around with it but never had an instillation
where I could.
The HP Orsay (not Grenoble, as I misremembered) implementation is the only
SNOBOL3 implementation I've used. There's a free SNOBOL4 implementation
here for various PC operating systems:
https://github.com/spitbol/
Actually, it's a SPITBOL implementation, which is a compiled version of
SNOBOL4; see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPITBOL
I've used the Windows NT version for years; it's still my preferred
language for string manipulation. Note that SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 are
different syntactically, though learning one certainly would aid in
learning the other.
ALGOL as well. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll
check some of that out
too.
If you're not necessarily wedded to the HP 21xx/1000 architecture, the HP
3000 simulator and its associated MPE operating system kit from the SIMH/HP
site has a number of languages preinstalled:
- BASIC (interpreter and compiler)
- COBOL 68
- COBOL 74/85
- FORTRAN 66
- Pascal
- RPG
- SPL
The latter is HP's proprietary Systems Programming Language, an ALGOL-like
derivative used in lieu of assembler to implement MPE and most of the
compilers and utilities.
-- Dave
9 Apr
9 Apr
9:18 p.m.
On 2020-04-08 22:47, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
The HP Orsay (not Grenoble, as I misremembered)
implementation is the
only
SNOBOL3 implementation I've used. There's a free SNOBOL4
implementation
here for various PC operating systems:
https://github.com/spitbol/
Actually, it's a SPITBOL implementation, which is a compiled version of
SNOBOL4; see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPITBOL
I've used the Windows NT version for years; it's still my preferred
language for string manipulation. Note that SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 are
different syntactically, though learning one certainly would aid in
learning the other.
I first learn of SNOBOL4, still have my copy of the green book which was
how I first came across it. I know there are various versions available
online these days, just been low on the todo list.
If you're not necessarily wedded to the HP
21xx/1000 architecture, the
HP
3000 simulator and its associated MPE operating system kit from the
SIMH/HP
site has a number of languages preinstalled:
- BASIC (interpreter and compiler)
- COBOL 68
- COBOL 74/85
- FORTRAN 66
- Pascal
- RPG
- SPL
The latter is HP's proprietary Systems Programming Language, an
ALGOL-like
derivative used in lieu of assembler to implement MPE and most of the
compilers and utilities.
Only "wedded" to the HP 21xx for nostalgia purposes having been my first
exposure to computers and wanted to play with it some more. Having lots
of free time at the moment, I'm investigating lots of different systems.
Mainly via emulation/simulation. HP 3000 is certainly on the list and a
lot of the languages that you list there are on the "to play with" list
so I'll probably bump it up the todo list a bit. Would be fun to play
around with COBOL, FORTRAN and others again. I seem to recall we had a
FORTRAN on our 2000F which was my first exposure to that language but as
it was under 2000F TSB I assume it was something written in BASIC that
either interpreted FORTRAN or maybe a p-code like system or what I have
no idea. Was so long ago I have old print outs from it but don't recall
anything more about it otherwise and haven't ever seen anything about it
in my limited searches. But it did start me exploring other languages
which lead me to discover SNOBOL and many others.
David Williams
10 Apr
10 Apr
7:18 a.m.
If it helps at all, I run a public hp2000/access emulated system that everyone is free to
play with. It?s been up for many years.
Telnet to Mickey.publicvm.com
Do ctl m and ctl j till you see PLEASE LOG IN
HEL-t001,hp2000,1
If anyone wants a personal account just let me know.
-Bob
-Bob
On Apr 9, 2020, at 11:18 PM, David Williams via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
?On 2020-04-08 22:47, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
The HP Orsay (not Grenoble, as I misremembered)
implementation is the only
SNOBOL3 implementation I've used. There's a free SNOBOL4 implementation
here for various PC operating systems:
https://github.com/spitbol/
Actually, it's a SPITBOL implementation, which is a compiled version of
SNOBOL4; see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPITBOL
I've used the Windows NT version for years; it's still my preferred
language for string manipulation. Note that SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 are
different syntactically, though learning one certainly would aid in
learning the other.
I first learn of SNOBOL4, still have my copy of the green book which was how I first came
across it. I know there are various versions available online these days, just been low on
the todo list.
If you're not necessarily wedded to the HP
21xx/1000 architecture, the HP
3000 simulator and its associated MPE operating system kit from the SIMH/HP
site has a number of languages preinstalled:
- BASIC (interpreter and compiler)
- COBOL 68
- COBOL 74/85
- FORTRAN 66
- Pascal
- RPG
- SPL
The latter is HP's proprietary Systems Programming Language, an ALGOL-like
derivative used in lieu of assembler to implement MPE and most of the
compilers and utilities.
Only "wedded" to the HP 21xx for nostalgia purposes having been my first
exposure to computers and wanted to play with it some more. Having lots of free time at
the moment, I'm investigating lots of different systems. Mainly via
emulation/simulation. HP 3000 is certainly on the list and a lot of the languages that you
list there are on the "to play with" list so I'll probably bump it up the
todo list a bit. Would be fun to play around with COBOL, FORTRAN and others again. I seem
to recall we had a FORTRAN on our 2000F which was my first exposure to that language but
as it was under 2000F TSB I assume it was something written in BASIC that either
interpreted FORTRAN or maybe a p-code like system or what I have no idea. Was so long ago
I have old print outs from it but don't recall anything more about it otherwise and
haven't ever seen anything about it in my limited searches. But it did start me
exploring other languages which lead me to discover SNOBOL and many others.
David Williams
9:11 a.m.
Lots of games available (do GRO to see the group listing), full HP contributed library
(LIB).
-Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Bob4schoolboard94 via
cctalk
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 9:19 AM
To: David Williams <nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Help installing HP 2000 contributed library in simh
If it helps at all, I run a public hp2000/access emulated system that everyone is free to
play with. It?s been up for many years.
Telnet to Mickey.publicvm.com
Do ctl m and ctl j till you see PLEASE LOG IN
HEL-t001,hp2000,1
If anyone wants a personal account just let me know.
-Bob
-Bob
On Apr 9, 2020, at 11:18 PM, David Williams via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
?On 2020-04-08 22:47, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote:
The HP Orsay (not Grenoble, as I misremembered)
implementation is the
only
SNOBOL3 implementation I've used. There's a free SNOBOL4
implementation here for various PC operating systems:
https://github.com/spitbol/
Actually, it's a SPITBOL implementation, which is a compiled version
of SNOBOL4; see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPITBOL
I've used the Windows NT version for years; it's still my preferred
language for string manipulation. Note that SNOBOL3 and SNOBOL4 are
different syntactically, though learning one certainly would aid in
learning the other.
I first learn of SNOBOL4, still have my copy of the green book which was how I first came
across it. I know there are various versions available online these days, just been low on
the todo list.
If you're not necessarily wedded to the HP
21xx/1000 architecture,
the HP
3000 simulator and its associated MPE operating system kit from the
SIMH/HP site has a number of languages preinstalled:
- BASIC (interpreter and compiler)
- COBOL 68
- COBOL 74/85
- FORTRAN 66
- Pascal
- RPG
- SPL
The latter is HP's proprietary Systems Programming Language, an
ALGOL-like derivative used in lieu of assembler to implement MPE and
most of the compilers and utilities.
Only "wedded" to the HP 21xx for nostalgia purposes having been my first
exposure to computers and wanted to play with it some more. Having lots of free time at
the moment, I'm investigating lots of different systems. Mainly via
emulation/simulation. HP 3000 is certainly on the list and a lot of the languages that you
list there are on the "to play with" list so I'll probably bump it up the
todo list a bit. Would be fun to play around with COBOL, FORTRAN and others again. I seem
to recall we had a FORTRAN on our 2000F which was my first exposure to that language but
as it was under 2000F TSB I assume it was something written in BASIC that either
interpreted FORTRAN or maybe a p-code like system or what I have no idea. Was so long ago
I have old print outs from it but don't recall anything more about it otherwise and
haven't ever seen anything about it in my limited searches. But it did start me
exploring other languages which lead me to discover SNOBOL and many others.
David Williams
1500
days inactive
1505
days old
22 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
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