15 Jan
2016
15 Jan
'16
9:09 a.m.
Hi Folks,
I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and programs
that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried that my media
is degrading and I want to move it before it's too late.
The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD diskettes too.
I have the original hardware and can view the media and run the programs.
I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to the PC environment.
Thanks Robo
15 Jan
15 Jan
10:09 a.m.
On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Robo58 wrote:
Hi Folks,
I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and programs
that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried that my media
is degrading and I want to move it before it's too late.
The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD diskettes too.
Are the "8" SD" standard 8" SSSD?
What format are the 8" DD?
What format are the 5.25" HD? Are you SURE that they are HD?
I have the original hardware and can view the media
and run the programs.
What make and model? There are approximately 2500 mutually incompatible
CP/M disk formats.
I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to
the PC environment.
10:32 a.m.
Hi Fred,
Thanks for the reply. The 8" SD diskettes are standard IBM format (I
believe 3740 physical format) 26 sectors. I believe the 8" DD follows the
same 3740 physical format but has 1024 byte sectors and that they could vary
as to either 8 or 9 sectors/track.
Regarding the 5.25" HD diskettes. I believe they are duplicates of the 8"DD
just using the smaller media.
The hardware is custom so there is no unique base of users or other software
to leverage. There are two different platforms, both Z80 one platform uses
the Western Digital 1771 floppy controller, the second platform was newer at
the time and is Z80 with WD 1791 floppy controller.
Thanks Robo
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:10 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS
media)
On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Robo58 wrote:
Hi Folks,
I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and
programs that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried
that my media is degrading and I want to move it before it's too late.
The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD diskettes
too.
Are the "8" SD" standard 8" SSSD?
What format are the 8" DD?
What format are the 5.25" HD? Are you SURE that they are HD?
I have the original hardware and can view the media
and run the programs.
What make and model? There are approximately 2500 mutually incompatible
CP/M disk formats.
I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to
the PC environment.
10:39 a.m.
do you have a working 8" drive? You can attach to a PC from the 386
through to Pentium III as a "HD 5 1/4" drive. That's what I do. You need
the DBIT 50/34 adapter and image an disk program. You can usually for CP/M
disks just use the motherboard's built-in disk drive controller, but I also
have a Catweasel if I need it for more exotic formats. CP/M disks are very
readable, any format I have ever encountered on SS disks has been no
problem, assuming the disk itself is ok.
Here is a thread from my web site that describes the process, as I
accomplished it. There is more than one way to skin this cat, there is
also a link within the thread with a downloadable how-to guide from VCF
East 9.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=561
Bill
On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Robo58 <robo58 at optonline.net> wrote:
Hi Fred,
Thanks for the reply. The 8" SD diskettes are standard IBM format (I
believe 3740 physical format) 26 sectors. I believe the 8" DD follows the
same 3740 physical format but has 1024 byte sectors and that they could
vary
as to either 8 or 9 sectors/track.
Regarding the 5.25" HD diskettes. I believe they are duplicates of the
8"DD
just using the smaller media.
The hardware is custom so there is no unique base of users or other
software
to leverage. There are two different platforms, both Z80 one platform uses
the Western Digital 1771 floppy controller, the second platform was newer
at
the time and is Z80 with WD 1791 floppy controller.
Thanks Robo
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Cisin
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:10 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS
media)
On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Robo58 wrote:
--
-Bill-
Hi Folks,
I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and
programs that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried
that my media is degrading and I want to move it before it's too late.
The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD diskettes
too.
Are the "8" SD" standard 8" SSSD?
What format are the 8" DD?
What format are the 5.25" HD? Are you SURE that they are HD?
I have the original hardware and can view the
media and run the programs.
What make and model? There are approximately 2500 mutually incompatible
CP/M disk formats.
I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it
to the PC environment.
12:14 p.m.
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have an 8" Shugart 800/801 and one or two 5.25".
I'm a little rusty on the older PC's. So when you say that 386 to PIII's
could read an 8" floppy, would those PC's have SD floppy controllers?
I did a quick look and the link for the Catweasel
(http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/catweasel_e.htm) and the website no longer
operational.
Assume that I can get an old PC and connect it up how would an "image a disk"
program work? Does it have knowledge of the CP/M files system and can read the directory
and grab the files? Would the program also be able to write to the PC's file system
to complete the archive?
What "image a disk" programs would suggest?
Thank you
Robo
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:40 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media)
do you have a working 8" drive? You can attach to a PC from the 386 through to
Pentium III as a "HD 5 1/4" drive. That's what I do. You need the DBIT
50/34 adapter and image an disk program. You can usually for CP/M disks just use the
motherboard's built-in disk drive controller, but I also have a Catweasel if I need it
for more exotic formats. CP/M disks are very readable, any format I have ever encountered
on SS disks has been no problem, assuming the disk itself is ok.
Here is a thread from my web site that describes the process, as I accomplished it. There
is more than one way to skin this cat, there is also a link within the thread with a
downloadable how-to guide from VCF East 9.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=561
Bill
12:56 p.m.
A good place to start:
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm
m
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robo58" <robo58 at optonline.net>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 12:14 PM
Subject: RE: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media)
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have an 8" Shugart 800/801 and one or two
5.25".
I'm a little rusty on the older PC's. So when you say that 386 to PIII's
could read an 8" floppy, would those PC's have SD floppy controllers?
I did a quick look and the link for the Catweasel
(http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/catweasel_e.htm) and the website no longer
operational.
Assume that I can get an old PC and connect it up how would an "image a disk"
program work? Does it have knowledge of the CP/M files system and can read the directory
and grab the files? Would the program also be able to write to the PC's file system
to complete the archive?
What "image a disk" programs would suggest?
Thank you
Robo
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:40 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media)
do you have a working 8" drive? You can attach to a PC from the 386 through to
Pentium III as a "HD 5 1/4" drive. That's what I do. You need the DBIT
50/34 adapter and image an disk program. You can usually for CP/M disks just use the
motherboard's built-in disk drive controller, but I also have a Catweasel if I need it
for more exotic formats. CP/M disks are very readable, any format I have ever encountered
on SS disks has been no problem, assuming the disk itself is ok.
Here is a thread from my web site that describes the process, as I accomplished it.
There is more than one way to skin this cat, there is also a link within the thread with a
downloadable how-to guide from VCF East 9.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=561
Bill
1:05 p.m.
On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Robo58 wrote:
I'm a little rusty on the older PC's. So when
you say that 386 to
PIII's could read an 8" floppy, would those PC's have SD floppy
controllers?
Some (such as 37c65 based FDCs) do, some don't. Dave Dunfield made a test
program, to help identify them.
If the FDC can't do FM (SD), then either you need to use a different one,
or a flux transition product, such as CatWeasel.
Assume that I can get an old PC and connect it up how
would an "image a
disk" program work? Does it have knowledge of the CP/M files system and
can read the directory and grab the files? Would the program also be
able to write to the PC's file system to complete the archive?
No, it does not know the file system.
Instead, THAT part of the process is consists of copying all of the
sectors of the disk to a file.
What "image a disk" programs would suggest?
ImageDisk, but others may have different preferences.
My personal preference is to use a program that DOES know the file system,
and transfers FILES. Such as XenoCopy (no longer available) or 22Disk. I
don't think that Uniform supported any 8" or HD formats.
But, those are set for specific formats (selected from a menu), and won't
help for a format that doesn't have the same parameters as any that they
include.
STAT DSK: (run on the CP/M system) will give you some of the parameters
that you need.
But, if you use a disk imaging program, you may be able to find something
that can work with the file system, working from the image file, or write
your own.
Another alternative is, of course, to do serial port transfers. I prefer
XMODEM, but some folk like Kermit.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
2:34 p.m.
On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Robo58 wrote:
Assume that I can get an old PC and connect it up how
would an "image a
disk" program work? Does it have knowledge of the CP/M files system and
can read the directory and grab the files? Would the program also be
able to write to the PC's file system to complete the archive?
The simplest approach (as suggested by Fred) would be to use 22Disk to
simply read files out of the CP/M filesystem. If you are dealing with a
non-standard format that is not in the default database, you would need to
purchase a registered copy that has tools for building new definitions.
Alternately, you can use ImageDisk to capture an IMD file, then convert to
a sector image with the accompanying IMDU utility. From there, use
'cpmtools' under Linux to read out the files. It is relatively
straightforward to define new disk formats for cpmtools, although you will
certainly have some experimentation ahead of you.
--
2:59 p.m.
On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Steven Hirsch wrote:
The simplest approach (as suggested by Fred) would be
to use 22Disk to simply
read files out of the CP/M filesystem. If you are dealing with a
non-standard format that is not in the default database, you would need to
purchase a registered copy that has tools for building new definitions.
Alternately, you can use ImageDisk to capture an IMD file, then convert to a
sector image with the accompanying IMDU utility. From there, use 'cpmtools'
under Linux to read out the files. It is relatively straightforward to define
new disk formats for cpmtools, although you will certainly have some
experimentation ahead of you.
Start with STAT DSK: on the CP/M machine
That will give you some of what you need.
Examining sector contents is needed to determine sector sequence,
interleave, skew, and "side pattern".
Then, of course, there are surprisingly many other oddball weirdities,
such as inverted bits, altered/non-standard/invalid sector headers, etc.
But, if the machine is still functional, you can transfer everything to
SSSD "CP/M Standard", which is widely supported.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
5 p.m.
On Jan 15, 2016 8:32 AM, "Robo58" <robo58 at optonline.net> wrote:
The 8" SD diskettes are standard IBM format (I
believe 3740 physical format) 26 sectors.
Almost all SD 8 inch use that physical format, though there are some
oddball formats like OSI.
Similarly almost all 8 inch SD CP/M disks use the same logical (filesystem)
format, because that was THE standard for CP/M interchamge.
I believe the 8" DD follows the
same 3740 physical format
3740 is specifically SD. By definition, DD *must* be a different physical
format. In most cases, DD uses IBM System/34 format, though as with SD
there are some oddballs. The big problem is that there is no standard for
CP/M logical format on DD (or a zillion "standards", depending on your
definition).
Usually when I've been faced with an unknown CP/M format, I've figured it
out "by hand" using a sector editor, because back then I didn't have any of
the fancy interchange programs that were sold.
5:19 p.m.
CP/M disks, - if they're soft sectored - are just about the easiest non PC
DOS format to image assuming you have the right set up. It takes me 20
seconds per disk with Dunfield's utility.
I use a DBIT 50/34 pin adapter to convert a the 8" 50pin disk cable to a
34-pin 5 1/4" cable. With this adapter- it's super fast. You want a DD 8"
drive like the 850, but if you created the disks on an 801 you should be
able to use it to image the disks to the modern PC.
DBIT: Source for 8" drive adapter to work on a newer drive controller:
http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html
If you want, send the disks to me as I have everything set up here.
Contact me directly if you need assistance. Every vintage computerian
ideally should have some sort of disk imaging station set up but if you
don't I or others here with such systems are probably happy to help.
--
-Bill-
6:06 p.m.
Hi Folks,
Thank you all for the suggestions and feedback. I appreciate your help clearing my
cobwebs.
Let me answer a few of the questions that were asked.
Both CP/M systems have serial ports so I'm good there.
I likely have 50 pin to 34 pin floppy conversion cables as over time we moved away from
the 8" drives to 5.25" and then 3.5"
I used PuTTy a long time ago but it should come right back to me. If I remember it
correctly it has a large screen buffer that I can paste to the clip board and then save
the resulting source code.
Does PuTTy have any logging functions that would put whatever goes to the screen into a
disk file? That way I could "Type" source file after source file and then
separate them later on the PC.
Now that you've given me a way to get my source, how would you suggest getting
binaries? I do remember the Intel checksum format, and it is all ascii so if I could
convert the binaries to that format I could capture them the same way as the source
files.
Was/is there a way to convert "Com" files to the Intel checksum format on CP/M
2.2 systems ?
Thanks
Robo
6:24 p.m.
On 01/15/2016 03:06 PM, Robo58 wrote:
Was/is there a way to convert "Com" files to
the Intel checksum
format on CP/M 2.2 systems ?
Yes, you want the "GENHEX" utility. It was a standard part of MP/M and
will run on CP/M, but it's probably floating around on the SIG/M archive
as well. Gaby's site (z80.de) certainly has a copy of MP/M.
If you can't find it, shoot me a note and I'll email you a copy.
--Chuck
6:29 p.m.
Found a copy of GENHEX on bitsavers here:
ftp://ftp.uk.freesbie.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/QX1…
Just change the extension to .COM and you're good.
--Chuck
7:16 p.m.
Hi Chuck,
Thanks for the find.
I just downloaded it. I'll try it next week.
Thank you "All" for the help. You've covered all the bases for me :-)
Robo
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 6:29 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media)
Found a copy of GENHEX on bitsavers here:
ftp://ftp.uk.freesbie.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/QX1…
Just change the extension to .COM and you're good.
--Chuck
9:11 p.m.
From: Robo58
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 3:06 PM
Does PuTTy have any logging functions that would put
whatever goes to the
screen into a disk file? That way I could "Type" source file after source
file and then separate them later on the PC.
Yes. In the configuration box that comes up when you start PuTTY, there
is a sub-item under Session for Logging.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
10:36 p.m.
Hi Rich,
Thanks. I look for it.
Robo
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 9:11 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Archiving CP/M 2.2 Source Code Programs to a PC (Fat or NTFS media)
From: Robo58
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 3:06 PM
Does PuTTy have any logging functions that would put
whatever goes to
the screen into a disk file? That way I could "Type" source file
after source file and then separate them later on the PC.
Yes. In the configuration box that comes up when you start PuTTY, there is a sub-item
under Session for Logging.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
5:56 p.m.
On 01/15/2016 02:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Jan 15, 2016 8:32 AM, "Robo58" <robo58
at optonline.net> wrote:
I attribute that to the lack of user low-level formatting software.
In general, they do follow the A1 format, but there were a couple, such
as the HP 125 to ruin your day. Once you migrate to MFM, standard
formats simply don't exist. Even IBM had several different MFM 8" formats.
No one's touched on hard-sector formats, which could really get bizarre,
such as the Zilog MCZ format with 132-byte sectors. Or clever things
like RX02 and "weird MFM" or various GCR schemes (e.g. Future Data).
Fortunately, few hobbyists run into those.
--Chuck
The 8" SD diskettes are standard IBM format
(I believe 3740
physical format) 26 sectors.
Almost all SD 8 inch use that physical format, though there are some
oddball formats like OSI.
Similarly almost all 8 inch SD CP/M disks use the same logical
(filesystem) format, because that was THE standard for CP/M
interchamge.
12:07 p.m.
On 01/15/2016 06:09 AM, Robo58 wrote:
I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler
source code and
programs that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried
that my media is degrading and I want to move it before it's too
late.
The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD
diskettes too.
I have the original hardware and can view the media and run the
programs.
I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to the PC environment
I'm sure that others will give you some great suggestions on the
mechanics, but I will add my own 2 cents to this by observing that if
most of the diskettes are CPMUG or other "user groups", your effort may
well be redundant--many of the files that were distributed via BBS have
long been archived and made public (e.g. SIMTEL20).
Good luck,
Chuck
12:40 p.m.
On 01/15/2016 08:09 AM, Robo58 wrote:
Hi Folks,
I have many diskettes worth of CP/M 2.2 assembler source code and programs
that I'd like to archive in the PC environment. I'm worried that my media
is degrading and I want to move it before it's too late.
The media is mostly 8" SD or DD, there are also some 5.25" HD diskettes too.
I have the original hardware and can view the media and run the programs.
I'm looking for suggestions on how to move it to the PC environment.
Got a console serial port on the CP/M system? You should be
able to use a program like Kermit to suck up the files.
Probably log a file list, edit the file list to only have
source files, and then you can get that into Kermit to make
the CP/M system type out the files, and Kermit will log them
to individual files. I've never done this, but I think
kermit was specially designed to make this easy to do.
I'm guessing a few other terminal programs have the same
sort of capability to run scripts to send commands to a
foreign OS and log the result.
Jon
3091
days inactive
3092
days old
19 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
mhs.stein＠gmail.com -
RichA＠LivingComputerMuseum.org -
robo58＠optonline.net -
snhirsch＠gmail.com -
spacewar＠gmail.com