20 Sep
2010
20 Sep
'10
8:02 p.m.
Personally I enjoy a big Simpson 260-dash-whatever.
The Triplett 630 is in the same league.
Both have been in production (in one variant or another) since before WWII.
The RCA Senior Voltohmysts I love for their fashion sense but unless I need VTVM class
input impedances, I'd prefer the Simpson or Triplett.
In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You can critique the
designs because of what you saw as failings of your Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD
display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260
or Triplett 630.
At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's
available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but they do mostly
work.
Tim.
20 Sep
20 Sep
9:06 p.m.
In my book, if you're looking for accuracy and sheer
reliability, I'd look for a good used Fluke 8020A,B,
or an 8021,8022,or 8024B. The 8024A also exists,
but that model had some reliability issues until
they re-laid the switchboard in the 'B' model.
They don't have all of the fancy bells and whistles
of later models, but they JUST WORK. The only issue
of course, is finding one with a decent LCD; most
of the ones offered on the net are shot.
I got lucky-- I found an 8020B in a thrift store
with a bad display for $5. I replaced the LCD with
a spare that I had, and I've had a reliable meter
ever since. You'll have to hunt, but it's worth it.
-----Original Message-----
From: tshoppa at wmata.com
Sent: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:02:21 -0400
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Multimeter recomendations
Personally I enjoy a big Simpson 260-dash-whatever.
The Triplett 630 is in the same league.
Both have been in production (in one variant or another) since before
WWII.
The RCA Senior Voltohmysts I love for their fashion sense but unless I
need VTVM class input impedances, I'd prefer the Simpson or Triplett.
In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You
can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your
Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be
far more durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630.
At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's
available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use
but they do mostly work.
Tim.
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21 Sep
21 Sep
10:17 a.m.
On 9/20/10 8:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote:
In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used
77-series unit. You can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your
Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more durable
than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630.
At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's
available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but they do mostly
work.
I've evaluated five or six of these. The accuracy and stability of
these things, especially in the face of temperature variations, is utter
crap. Don't ever adjust a +5V supply in a PDP-11 using one of these. ;)
Some of these were tested as being 15% off, measuring nearly six volts
from a (very tightly calibrated) 5V supply!
Buying cheap multimeters (or any other tool, really) is a false
economy. My daily-use handheld DMM is an original Fluke 77 (no suffix)
that I stole from work so long ago that I don't mind mentioning it here.
;) I've had it for almost twenty years, and it was well-used when I got
it. It works as if it were brand new.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
11 a.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
Yeah, they're certainly not great - although I've generally had one kicking
around for car-related stuff, where it usually gets pretty dirty and is bumped
around a lot. Good for continuity and "does this thing have power?" type tests.
Must pick another one up - I'm just surviving on my good Amprobe meter right
now, and it's already got oily fingerprints all over it :-)
cheers
Jules
At the very
low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable"
DMM's available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy
to use but they do mostly work.
I've evaluated five or six of these. The accuracy and stability of
these things, especially in the face of temperature variations, is utter
crap. Don't ever adjust a +5V supply in a PDP-11 using one of these. ;)
Some of these were tested as being 15% off, measuring nearly six volts
from a (very tightly calibrated) 5V supply! 
2:21 p.m.
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, Jules Richardson wrote:
Yeah, they're certainly not great - although
I've generally had one kicking
around for car-related stuff, where it usually gets pretty dirty and is bumped
around a lot. Good for continuity and "does this thing have power?" type
tests.
Must pick another one up - I'm just surviving on my good Amprobe meter right
now, and it's already got oily fingerprints all over it :-)
Harbor Freight puts them on sale for $3, or even $2
They are worth that much.
One at work (I am not authorized to do ANYTHING with hardware at work),
one in the trunk of the car, one at my mother's house, and a handful for
when neighbors want to borrow tools.
11:07 a.m.
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:17:41 -0400
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: Multimeter recomendations
On 9/20/10 8:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote:
Hi
This is not always true. I have a cheap meter that I bought
for about $8 at HSC. It has always been dead-nuts-on.
It even has a socket for testing transistors ( never use that ).
It has calibration pots if needed but I've never needed it.
I've used it in all kind of realistic temperatures ( those I
can withstand ) and it hasn't had a problem.
I don't use it to calibrate my supply output ( for that I use
a 5 digit Fluke ). As a handy hand held meter that I
could always not worry about breaking, it has worked quite well.
I don't think I've ever seen such a meter being 15% off unless
it was broken to start with.
When you say, some of these were tested, what exactly does
that mean? Which brands and were they calibrated or just
off the shelf?
Dwight
In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any
used 77-series unit. You can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of
your Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more
durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630.
At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's
available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but they do mostly
work.
I've evaluated five or six of these. The accuracy and stability of
these things, especially in the face of temperature variations, is utter
crap. Don't ever adjust a +5V supply in a PDP-11 using one of these. ;)
Some of these were tested as being 15% off, measuring nearly six volts
from a (very tightly calibrated) 5V supply!
Buying cheap multimeters (or any other tool, really) is a false
economy. My daily-use handheld DMM is an original Fluke 77 (no suffix)
that I stole from work so long ago that I don't mind mentioning it here.
;) I've had it for almost twenty years, and it was well-used when I got
it. It works as if it were brand new.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
11:16 a.m.
On 9/21/10 11:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
That's excellent! For every rule, there is an exception. ;)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:17:41 -0400
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: Multimeter recomendations
On 9/20/10 8:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote:
This is not always true. I have a cheap meter that I bought
for about $8 at HSC. It has always been dead-nuts-on.
It even has a socket for testing transistors ( never use that ).
It has calibration pots if needed but I've never needed it.
I've used it in all kind of realistic temperatures ( those I
can withstand ) and it hasn't had a problem.
I don't use it to calibrate my supply output ( for that I use
a 5 digit Fluke ). As a handy hand held meter that I
could always not worry about breaking, it has worked quite well. In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any
used 77-series unit. You can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of
your Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more
durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630.
At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's
available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but they do mostly
work.
I've evaluated five or six of these. The accuracy and stability of
these things, especially in the face of temperature variations, is utter
crap. Don't ever adjust a +5V supply in a PDP-11 using one of these. ;)
Some of these were tested as being 15% off, measuring nearly six volts
from a (very tightly calibrated) 5V supply!
Buying cheap multimeters (or any other tool, really) is a false
economy. My daily-use handheld DMM is an original Fluke 77 (no suffix)
that I stole from work so long ago that I don't mind mentioning it here.
;) I've had it for almost twenty years, and it was well-used when I got
it. It works as if it were brand new. I don't think I've ever seen such a meter
being 15% off unless
it was broken to start with.
That's kinda my point. ;)
When you say, some of these were tested, what
exactly does
that mean? Which brands and were they calibrated or just
off the shelf?
Just off-the-shelf. I don't recall the brands offhand; they're in a
box somewhere. I got curious about cheapie DMMs after a discussion with
a colleague many years ago, and I bought a bunch of them. They cost no
more than $20/ea. I tested them against my lab standards (I have
NIST-traceable voltage and resistance standards here) and did some very
basic "stick it in the freezer for five minutes then retest, hit it with
a hair dryer and retest" type of thermal stability testing. The results
were less than stellar.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
11:34 a.m.
I have a Fluke 29 series (going by memory). Do you guys ever bother to get
your meters recalibrated every so many years?
11:55 a.m.
On 9/21/10 11:34 AM, Teo Zenios wrote:
I have a Fluke 29 series (going by memory). Do you
guys ever bother to
get your meters recalibrated every so many years?
I do my Fluke 77 every two years or so, but for the past couple of
years it hasn't needed any adjustment at all.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
4:51 p.m.
On 9/20/10 8:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote:
> In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You can
critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your Fluke 85, but believe me,
the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more durable than the faceplate on
my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630.
At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's
available at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but they do mostly
work.
I've evaluated five or six of these. The accuracy and stability of
these things, especially in the face of temperature variations, is utter
crap. Don't ever adjust a +5V supply in a PDP-11 using one of these. ;)
Some of these were tested as being 15% off, measuring nearly six volts
from a (very tightly calibrated) 5V supply! Buying cheap multimeters (or any other tool,
really) is a false
economy. My daily-use handheld DMM is an original Fluke 77 (no suffix)
'I am not rich enough to buy cheap tools' :-) As I have said many times.
But equally, if you buy an expensive tool it should be worth the money.
Most times it is. As I have said, I didn't objerct to the fact that the
FLuke was at least 5 times the price of a cheap meter with similar paper
specifications. But I do object if what I get isn't much better than the
cheap version.
that I stole from work so long ago that I don't
mind mentioning it here.
;) I've had it for almost twenty years, and it was well-used when I got
it. It works as if it were brand new.
As did my 85 (origianl version, no suffix) until a couple of days ago.
Just needed batteries every so often and the occasional cleaning fo trhe
zebra strip. Perhaps I was unlucky that the display died, but...
-tony
5:25 p.m.
Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote:
FLuke was at least 5 times the price of a cheap meter
with similar
paper specifications. But I do object if what I get isn't much
better than the
cheap version.
That's a bit unfair on the Fluke: it might have been quite a bit better
than my Rolson quite-a-lot-of-functions multimeter (good enough for
continuity tests and fiddling with the car).
Your complaints are that swapping the battery would eventually lead to
a failure which could easily have been prevented by better design
(actually
the Rolson might win there :-)) and that the LCD display failed through
old age (10p says the Rolson won't last that long despite the light
usage it sees).
I cannot really comment on the accuracy of my two cheap and one
not-so-cheap
(but free to me) meters, other than to say that they all matched to
within one
percent (and also matched the equally uncalibrated PSU) but I bet I
could
send my branded one off to be calibrated with a straight face (if I
could afford it)
but the Rolson would cost more in postage alone than the meter did in
the first
place :-)
So do you have a cheap meter against which to compare?
Antonio
22 Sep
22 Sep
2:28 p.m.
FLuke was at
least 5 times the price of a cheap meter with similar
paper specifications. But I do object if what I get isn't much
better than the
cheap version.
That's a bit unfair on the Fluke: it might have been quite a bit better
than my Rolson quite-a-lot-of-functions multimeter (good enough for
continuity tests and fiddling with the car).
Your complaints are that swapping the battery would eventually lead to
a failure which could easily have been prevented by better design
My rela moan here is that if I am spending sevearl hundred pounds on an
instrument when 'simular' ones cost, say \pounds 20, then there has to be
something to justify the higher cost. And not cutting corners is part of
it.
(actually
the Rolson might win there :-)) and that the LCD display failed through
old age (10p says the Rolson won't last that long despite the light
usage it sees).
Actually, there are 2 more complainmts. The first is hte mode switching
aranagement, which did sometimes not work properly (why they did it this
way I don;t know)
And the other is that spares are not available. Perhaps that is unfair
after all this time, but I do like to keep my devices running for
ridiculously long times. The 'lifetime warranty' on modrre moderm DMMs
uses their own definiton of 'lifetime' and is of not much use to me...
I've poked around the FLuke website. It's somewhat silly in that, for
exampl,e what manuals they have for download depends on whether you claim
to be in the US or UK. If you're in the US, there's a like for getting
spare parts (mind you, the form on the next page seems to be broken),
that doesn't exist in the UK., But anyway...
One thing I _do not_ like is that there are no service manuals for the
later instruments (this applies to Agilent too, I have considered one of
their meters). There are calibration manuals, but no compoent-level
scheamtics or parts lists. Which means (a) it's going to be
expensive/diffiuclt to repair and (b) I can't see if the mode swithcing
'feature' is still there or not.
It's coming to the point where I am going to have to make my own portable
DMM to get one that I like...
I cannot really comment on the accuracy of my two cheap and one
not-so-cheap
(but free to me) meters, other than to say that they all matched to
within one
percent (and also matched the equally uncalibrated PSU) but I bet I
could
send my branded one off to be calibrated with a straight face (if I
could afford it)
I don;t need traceable claibration for anything I do. Calibrating against
my own pseudo-standards (like 0.01% resisotrs), is good enough.
but the Rolson would cost more in postage alone than
the meter did in
the first
place :-)
So do you have a cheap meter against which to compare?
No. I have some reasonable bench DVMs, etc (going back quite a few years,
some are old enoguh to be all discrete transistors, I think one even has
a couple of vlavles in the input stageto keep the impedance high enough).
Given those, and until recently a Fluke DMM, why would I want a cheap one?
Oh, I do have, non-working, but I suspect repairalbe, a fully valved DVM.
An 8U or so rack of electronics. Around 50 valves all told...
-tony
21 Sep
21 Sep
10:45 a.m.
At 8:02 PM -0400 9/20/10, Shoppa, Tim wrote:
Personally I enjoy a big Simpson 260-dash-whatever.
The Triplett 630 is in the same league.
Both have been in production (in one variant or another) since before WWII.
The RCA Senior Voltohmysts I love for their fashion sense but unless
I need VTVM class input impedances, I'd prefer the Simpson or
Triplett.
In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit.
You can critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of
your Fluke 85, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM
will be far more durable than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or
Triplett 630.
I never liked the Simpson's, but I've always loved the Fluke 77's. I
used both when I was an electrician. I used to have a fairly nice
Rat Shack multimeter that was a lot like it, until I gave it to my
Dad. I replaced it with a Fluke 77 series III, and wouldn't hesitate
to buy another!
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
4:02 p.m.
Personally I enjoy a big Simpson 260-dash-whatever.
The Triplett 630 is in the same league.
Both have been in production (in one variant or another) since before WWII.
OR over here the Avo Model 8 (which went out of production a couple of
months back, it's been around for 50 years or so).
But those are analogue instruemnts. And while I have no problem using one
(I do use an AVO model 8, and a cheapo analogue meter quite often), there
are things that hte digital meter does better. I really like having both
on my bench.
The RCA Senior Voltohmysts I love for their fashion
sense but unless I need=
VTVM class input impedances, I'd prefer the Simpson or Triplett.
In terms of used Flukes, I highly recommend any used 77-series unit. You ca=
n critique the designs because of what you saw as failings of your Fluke 85=
, but believe me, the LCD display on any Fluke LCD DMM will be far more dur=
able than the faceplate on my Simpson 260 or Triplett 630.
I don;t think mine failed because it was dropped or anything like that.
There is no evidence of damage ot the glass. I think the seal must have
failed from old age. Which could affect any old meter.
Baically, there are 3 things I don't like abotu the Fluke :
1 The self-tapping screws you have to remove the change the battery
(seems to be a 'cheap' mechanical design, and such penny-pinching in an
expensive instrument is a very good way to get me to go elsewhere)
2 The mode switch design was unreliable (IMHO a bad biece of electronic
design)
3 A lot of custom parts and spares are unobtainable.
If I picked up a FLuke 77 or 79, there is no gaurantee that I would be
able to get any spares for it. WHich considering the large number of
custom parts worries me.
At the very low end, in the $3 to $5 range there are "disposable" DMM's
ava=
ilable at discount stores here in the US. They are not a joy to use but the=
y do mostly work.
I've yet to see one witha fast enough continuity beeper. I want to be
able to stroke the probe along a row of pins at a reasonable speed and
have iot beep if there's a conneciton.
I looked at the chepa meters in a Maplin shop, and not one met my
requirements (even discounting the build quality).
-tony
6:23 p.m.
On 21 Sep 2010 at 21:02, Tony Duell wrote:
I looked at the chepa meters in a Maplin shop, and not
one met my
requirements (even discounting the build quality).
A couple of years ago, I received a Mastech 8284 DMM as a promotional
item ("buy $50 or more of our stuff and we'll throw in a meter").
After awhile, I found myself using it more than my Fluke 77. The
accuracy is very good on mine, the display is large (with a
backlight), the continuity checker is fast, and it seems to be well-
made, right down to having brass bushings on the battery compartment
screws (and you don't have to remove the rubber "bib" to get at
them).
http://www.p-mastech.com/products/04_dm/ms8264.html
The battery compartment is pretty decent--it's sized to exactly fit a
9V battery with no foam to keep it in place. Connections to the
terminals are via spring contacts, making it easy to change.
It's not an autoranger like the Fluke, but I'm not sure that I care
for the autoranging feature.
Yes, there are some things that I don't care for; I wish the buttons
were better engineered, but all in all, it's way better than the
Harbor Freqight DMM. Another one I've used for many years is one
branded by JDR--decent enough, but no continuity buzzer.
--Chuck
22 Sep
22 Sep
9:18 a.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
It's not an autoranger like the Fluke, but I'm
not sure that I care
for the autoranging feature.
Always been curious about that; I don't like autoranging meters either - but
I've never really worked out why.
Maybe I just like knowing what a tool's going to do, without feeling like it's
second-guessing me - but that logic probably doesn't really make much sense in
a multimeter context :-)
branded by JDR--decent enough, but no continuity
buzzer.
I know that for at least one of the meters I had, the buzzer was on the lowest
resistance range, rather than a separate function - so could be irritating in
certain situations (I ended up adding a switch so I could disable the buzzer).
My holy grail would be a meter where the test leads didn't auto-tangle on the
bench as soon as my back was turned for more than five minutes ;-)
cheers
Jules
4:08 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Nor do I. I find it takes considerably longer for me to read the thing if
the range has changed between readings.
The worst I ever used was a Fluke 73 (the original one, this was over 25
years ago). It was autoranging _only_ and had the analogue bargraph
along the bottom of the display. You can guess the rest. You'd be trying
to peak or null something, the darn thing would change ranges, and the
bar would suddnetly shrink or grow. Rather defeated the prupose of that
bargraph... I would _never_ consider an autoranging-only meter.
It's not an autoranger like the Fluke, but
I'm not sure that I care
for the autoranging feature.
Always been curious about that; I don't like autoranging meters either - but
I've never really worked out why.
Maybe I just like knowing what a tool's going to do, without feeling like it's
second-guessing me - but that logic probably doesn't really make much sense in
a multimeter context :-)
I think it does. The best tools are ones that you know how they are going
to behave, so you don't ahve to think about them. This is one reason I'll
not use anything but an RPN calcualtor, I don't want to have to remember
all the precedence rules (i.e. what does '-2^2' evaluate to?).
And probalby why I hate autoconfiguration programs. Any program that
thinks it knows more aobut my computer's hardware than I do is wrong. Period.
Some of the DEC autoconfuration programs drove me mad. You could end up
having to change the addresses and vecotrs of almost all the devices in
the machine ebcause you'd removed one controller. Ouch. I would much
prefer to be able to say 'I have an RL11 at address <foo>, vector <bar>.
Yes, I know htat's non-standard, but just take my word for it':-).
My holy grail would be a meter where the test leads
didn't auto-tangle on the
bench as soon as my back was turned for more than five minutes ;-)
Alas all test gear suffers from that. No manufactuer has solved that one.
-tony
3:49 p.m.
A couple of years ago, I received a Mastech 8284 DMM
as a promotional
item ("buy $50 or more of our stuff and we'll throw in a meter").
That, I guess, makes it a cheap meter :-)
After awhile, I found myself using it more than my
Fluke 77. The
accuracy is very good on mine, the display is large (with a
backlight), the continuity checker is fast, and it seems to be well-
made, right down to having brass bushings on the battery compartment
screws (and you don't have to remove the rubber "bib" to get at
them).
http://www.p-mastech.com/products/04_dm/ms8264.html
I will take a look...
FWIW, I am currnetly using a Maplin own-brand analogue multimeter. I
bought a couple of them _years_ ago as customer returns, non-working.
There was a cehcmatic in the manual, and it didn't take me long to find
the dry joint on the fuseholder (I didn't need the schematic for that
:-)). It's got rather more ranges that most analogue meters, including
temperature, Hfe, and capacitance. It even ahs AC current, somethign that
few analogue meters have.
Thing is, it's quite well made, and works remarkably well...
It's not an autoranger like the Fluke, but I'm
not sure that I care
for the autoranging feature.
_Many_ years ago I used an origianl FLuke 73, which was autoranging
_only_, not even a range hold function. It drove me insane. I would
insist on manual ranging, and to be honest, I never _needed_ the
autorange feature of the Fluke 85. Often I would sleect the range by
hand, and the times when I let it autorange it wouldnt' ahve made much
difference if I'd had to select the right range.
Yes, there are some things that I don't care for;
I wish the buttons
were better engineered, but all in all, it's way better than the
Harbor Freqight DMM. Another one I've used for many years is one
branded by JDR--decent enough, but no continuity buzzer.
That is a feautre I do regard as essential, though.
-tony
5124
days inactive
5125
days old
17 comments
11 participants
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