26 Jan
1999
26 Jan
'99
6:51 p.m.
On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.
] > <1. Ten years is just a guideline. If something is only 9 years old,
] > < I won't much mind hearing about it. I might even like it. But if
] >
] > I happen to like that.
]
] So do I. 10 years should be taken as a guideline. If you happen to have
] just rescued some unbelievably cool machine - say a supercomputer - that
] happens to be only 8 years old, I don't think anyone will flame you for
] mentioning here.
Of course, nobody gets flamed for being only slightly off-topic.
But we should at least be clear about what "off-topic" means, so
we can recognize how far off we've gone.
] There are better places IMHO for mainstream stuff like PCs, Macs,
] Windows, Linux, etc. Not to say that there aren't some real experts on
] all of those here, but you'll get better answers elsewhere.
And even if you could get better answers here, I submit that it is
rude. I am here because of an interest in older computers. The
whole point of having distinct mailing lists for distinct topics is
to get information to the people who want it, and not add to the
collective information overload. *Please* go to the right list
with each question.
] > <2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's
] > < just an indisputable fact. :-)
] >
] > I draw a line based on two things early 386 or older and uniqueness. There
] > are many clones but a few were very unique and interesting of themselves.
] > An example is the Leading Edge Model D I have or the Kaypro ProPC both Xt
] > class and a bit different.
]
] As I've said before, I have great difficulty in calling a no-name
] PC-clone a 'classic'. Especially when what you actually find in the case
] depends on the week that it was made. Even if it's 10 years old.
]
] Some clones will be 'classic'. The first Compaq probably is. Things like
] the Torch Graduate (A PC-compatible add-on for the BBC micro) is.
]
] And the non-clones (80x86 boxen that run MS-DOS, but which are not PC
] compatible) can be classics IMHO. Things like the Sirius, Apricot, HP150,
] Sanyo, etc...
Okay, I'll agree that you think they are classic. :-)
] > <5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off
] > < in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is
] > < not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use,
] > < there will be other places to discuss it.)
] >
] > Humm. This one is tough. We talk about VAXen and the MicroVAX is only
] > about 14-15 years old and some models do persist but they are uniquly
]
] Rememeber that DEC sold PDP11s until a couple of years ago, and that ISA
] cards with CPUs that execute the PDP11 instruction set are (IIRC) still
] in production.
Yup, PDP11's are classic. The ISA cards emulating them are not.
] However, a lot of us think of the PDP11 as being a very classic machine.
] It also happens to still be in serious commerical use in a lot of places.
] There are probably more PDP8's out there in control systems than a lot of
] us realise.
PDP11's are still in serious use. But is it not well past its prime?
How many had Dec manufactured in the last year? Ten years? When you
want to buy a computer from Dec, do they offer you a choice between a
PDP8 or an Alpha?
] > The keys are OLDness, UNIQUEness and desireability. I'm sure there are
]
] Of course what's desirable to one person may not be desirable to another.
] I can't see why I'd want an Altair, but I'd go quite a way to get a Xerox
] D-machine. I suspect that for others on this list that would be reversed.
]
] -tony
A lot of people want the latest PC, too. And prices on PC's are
generally higher; doesn't that indicate greater desirability?
Even to people on this list, how many can honestly say that the
most expensive computer that they own, as measured in the price
that they actually paid, was not a PC or Mac? (I can, but I
strongly suspect I'm an exception.)
Desirability does not make a computer a classic. Age does.
Rarity doesn't make a classic, but excessive commonality could
preclude it. (Which I think is the source of my bias against
PC's and Macs).
Bill.
26 Jan
26 Jan
5:48 p.m.
At 12:51 AM 1/27/99 -0500, Bill wrote:
A lot of people want the latest PC, too. And prices on
PC's are
generally higher; doesn't that indicate greater desirability?
Even to people on this list, how many can honestly say that the
most expensive computer that they own, as measured in the price
that they actually paid, was not a PC or Mac? (I can, but I
strongly suspect I'm an exception.)
I would guess most on this list can. At least those who, for example, bought a
computer in the 1970's. I think my Heath H-19 was about US $600 back when
they were new. I remember dot-matrix printers for $1600. Now add the cost
of a S-100 system to go with it... (My PC was free, a hand me down)
Am sure Apples were also in that price range, as well as TRS-80's (with
disks, printers, etc.) and then I could only look at pictures of a PDP-11.
-Dave
8:13 p.m.
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Dave Dameron wrote:
I would guess most on this list can. At least those
who, for example,
bought a computer in the 1970's. I think my Heath H-19 was about US $600
back when they were new. I remember dot-matrix printers for $1600. Now
I held out for a couple of years before I decided I needed a printer. I
bought a used Trendcom 100 for $200 or so. I probably still have some
brown curled-up thermal 6502 listings someplace.
These days, I can get along fine without a printer. I only use them to
generate old fashion fax machine input. Web forms and email have made
printers nearly obsolete (soon to be RARE).
-- Doug
9:05 p.m.
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Dave Dameron wrote:
At 12:51 AM 1/27/99 -0500, Bill wrote:
I know damned well that my first TRS-80 at $599 in 1978 was a much
bigger percentage of my annual income than my wife's casual purchase
of a 333Mhz P-II with the standard trimmings from home shopping
about 6 months back. (Technically, she's got more computer than
have, twice the clock, twice the RAM, four times the root disk of my
main machine, she uses the Winmodem to access AOL -- her sole use
for the machine; aside from the Winmodem it'd be a dynamite Linux
bix, but I have to wait until she sees something cuter on QVC).
That TRS-80 had _no_ peripherals aside from a (crappy) cassette
tape machine. The $300 or so it took to upgrade it to 16k RAM and
Microsoft BASIC was non-trivial.
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
A lot of people want the latest PC, too. And
prices on PC's are
generally higher; doesn't that indicate greater desirability?
Even to people on this list, how many can honestly say that the
most expensive computer that they own, as measured in the price
that they actually paid, was not a PC or Mac? (I can, but I
strongly suspect I'm an exception.)
I would guess most on this list can. At least those who, for example, bought a
computer in the 1970's. I think my Heath H-19 was about US $600 back when
they were new. I remember dot-matrix printers for $1600. Now add the cost
of a S-100 system to go with it... (My PC was free, a hand me down)
Am sure Apples were also in that price range, as well as TRS-80's (with
disks, printers, etc.) and then I could only look at pictures of a PDP-11. 
7:53 p.m.
I just don't want to hear about Pentiums, Gateway's, Dell's, Windows
95/98, Mac G3's, or anything else that you can walk into a CompUsa and
buy, on this list.
All the other stuff is fine, even old PC's like the Leading Edge or the
IBM PS/2 for that matter. Any PC later than that is dicey . . .
But for the most part, we just haven't had that much of a problem with
people talking about "new" computers anyway (At least not that I've seen,
although I *heavily* filter this list anyway--a lot of it I just
don't see, due to lack of time).
8:34 p.m.
New subject: H-19 Listings
This was posted today to the Heathkit Mailing List and thought someone here
might be interested. And of course communicate directly with the person
listed.
********************
Subject: FS/FT Firmware PROM listing - H-19
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:41:07 -0800
From: Mike Morris <morris(a)COGENT.NET>
Recently while doing an inventory of a silent key's files I discovered what
is apparently a original assembly code listing of the Heath H19 terminal
firmware, dated 30-May-1980, complete with cross-reference at the end.
Apparently Heath sold them.
It appears to be offset printed from an original daisy-wheel printout. On
the front is says "H-19-1 595-2465"
It was bound with blue vinyl with melted plastic pegs which have fallen
apart - but it is complete - I checked and every page is there.
Make offer - including trades.
Mike Morris WA6ILQ
mike(a)morris.com
9313
days inactive
9314
days old
5 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
ddameron＠earthlink.net -
doug＠blinkenlights.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
transit＠primenet.com -
yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu