Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question)
15 Dec
2001
15 Dec
'01
5:03 a.m.
At 03:46 PM 12/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
Allways wanted an SGI INDIGO.
Allways wanted an Atari 1450xld and:
an Atari 815 disk drive
A trak disk drive
-snip-
I want a CRAY.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
15 Dec
15 Dec
6:11 a.m.
New subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question)
At 03:46 PM 12/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
talk to Dave <g>
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
Allways wanted an SGI INDIGO.
Allways wanted an Atari 1450xld and:
an Atari 815 disk drive
A trak disk drive
-snip-
I want a CRAY. 
8:49 a.m.
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote:
I want a CRAY.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
Actually, I just heard that University of Texas is replacing their
Cray(s) with a set of IBM Regattas. If somebody with contacts there made
the right moves at the right time, the Crays could probably be had.
Maybe for next to nothing. UT sends a HUGE volume of hardware to the
Texas Department of Corrections, who sorts out the PC & Mac hardware &
refines the rest. It always broke my heart watching the guys at surplus
get that stuff ready to ship.
And no, they never liked me there. I had this thing about fixing the
routers so my clients printed to my printers, not the building next
door. They had this thing about filling out requests on pater and
waiting 5 weeks. I never did. They never changed the passwords on the
routers. They don't like me.
Doc
16 Dec
16 Dec
11:03 a.m.
New subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....)
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Doc wrote:
Actually, I just heard that University of Texas is
replacing their
Cray(s) with a set of IBM Regattas.
Which division of UT is this?
If somebody with contacts there made the right moves
at the right
time, the Crays could probably be had. Maybe for next to nothing.
UT can't legally sell any old/surplus equipment via a private sale. I've
talked to people about this in the past. There are laws that force all
agencies that get funding from the state of Texas to sell old/surplus
stuff via an auction only. Prior to 9/1/99, all old/surplus computer stuff
was sold to dealers and the public via an auction.
UT sends a HUGE volume of hardware to the Texas
Department of
Corrections, who sorts out the PC & Mac hardware & refines the rest.
Since 9/1/99, UT sends anything that fits the definition "Data Processing
Equipment" to TDC. Most divisions of UT I'm familiar with include old
Sun/VAX/Mainframe gear in the lots they send to TDC. Based on what I've
heard from various warehouse personnel, they generally tend to interpret
'Data Processing Equipment' to mean the monitor and cpu/computer. They
don't send TDC any keyboards, mice, or cables. I always wondered what TDC
can actually do with this many (10s of 1000s+) incomplete/gutted
computers?
It always broke my heart watching the guys at surplus
get that stuff
ready to ship.
UT is required to remove all data from the machines they send TDC. Most
warehouses wipe the drives in the PC machines (only drives with
fat16/fat32 format), and remove and scrap any drives that don't fit that
profile. Some warehouses simply remove all drives and scrap them.
Scrapping always means rendering the drive completely useless. Some
warehouses drill holes in the drives, and some run them thru an industrial
chipper. Even worse, they never remove the mounting brackets from the
drives before scrapping them.
What I would really like to know is how TDC is supposed to reuse/resell
these machines with no keyboards, no mice, and no hds/mounting brackets?
Here is a little information on the bill that forces all computer stuff to
go to TDC instead of auction, the text of the bill has an explicit list of
who can get surplus 'Data Processing Equipment' from a state agency.
Section 6 seems a little funny to me, but since I don't have a background
in law, I don't know what to make of it.
Bill: SB 1105
Legislative Session: 76(R)
Enrolled 06/18/1999 E Effective on 9/1/99
Relating to repair and resale of certain data processing equipment.
URL for bill history:
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/db2www/tlo/billhist/billhist.d2w/report…
URL to bill text:
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/tlo/textframe.cmd?LEG=76&SESS=R&…
-Toth
3:02 p.m.
New subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....)
On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote:
True. But anything bigger than a full-tower PC is VERY likely to get
designated, and sold as, scrap.
I was the LAN Op at Building 5, PRC from mid-98 thru late last year.
That's literally next door to the cantral surplus barn. I was friends
with the guy who is now the director, who was the shop foreman then. I
can tell you first-hand that the Surplus department has a lot more
control over classification than the releasing department.
Because of the TDC regs, UT will generally do backflips to avoid
outright retiring large IT equipment.
There is some leeway as to what is designated DCE. If the unit is
suffciently outdated and slow (OK, by THEIR standards), it's likely to
be sold as scrap at auction.
They can also donate equipment to approved entities. The angle I'd work
would be that, to donate the stuff to a museum. The "approval process"
is a little murky.
Based on what I've
Which division of UT is this?
I have no idea. I heard this from some folks on the prep side at IBM,
and they didn't know. I suspect it's either the accounting/bookkeeping
deprtment, or Engineering.
If somebody with contacts there made the right
moves at the right
time, the Crays could probably be had. Maybe for next to nothing.
UT can't legally sell any old/surplus equipment via a private sale. I've
talked to people about this in the past. There are laws that force all
agencies that get funding from the state of Texas to sell old/surplus
stuff via an auction only. Prior to 9/1/99, all old/surplus computer stuff
was sold to dealers and the public via an auction. UT sends a
HUGE volume of hardware to the Texas Department of
Corrections, who sorts out the PC & Mac hardware & refines the rest.
Since 9/1/99, UT sends anything that fits the definition "Data Processing
Equipment" to TDC. Most divisions of UT I'm familiar with include old
Sun/VAX/Mainframe gear in the lots they send to TDC. heard from various warehouse personnel, they generally
tend to interpret
'Data Processing Equipment' to mean the monitor and cpu/computer. They
don't send TDC any keyboards, mice, or cables. I always wondered what TDC
can actually do with this many (10s of 1000s+) incomplete/gutted
computers?
Landfill.
The absence of peripherals is mostly due to the fact that a wide range
of state-supported agencies, including ISD's and other UT departments,
can claim any surplus before it gets shipped to TDC. The number of
viable computers that make it through that gauntlet is more in the range
of a few hundred a year, and working keyboards, mice & monitors are
premium fodder.
UT is required to remove all data from the machines
they send TDC. Most
warehouses wipe the drives in the PC machines (only drives with
fat16/fat32 format), and remove and scrap any drives that don't fit that
profile. Some warehouses simply remove all drives and scrap them.
Uh-huh. I grabbed a PowerMac for our Imaging & Photo guy once that had
been in the UT clinic. There were psych profiles, legal petitions filed
because students had sought counselling for home situations that
involved harm to minors, case records, including names & addresses, you
name it.
Scrapping always means rendering the drive completely
useless. Some
warehouses drill holes in the drives, and some run
them thru an industrial
chipper. Even worse, they never remove the mounting brackets from the
drives before scrapping them.
I saw a lot of drives with lead solder dripped into the cable
connectors. I saw a lot more that were simply left in the machines,
especially the old workstations/servers. I don't think the people
responsible could really believe that anyone might want to power up a
unit that didn't say "Pentium".
What I would really like to know is how TDC is
supposed to reuse/resell
these machines with no keyboards, no mice, and no hds/mounting brackets?
A whole lot of people, including the ones getting that crap, want to
know the same thing. What kills me is that they would tenderly
palletize, wrap, and ship P90s worth ~$25, and use the forklifts to
handle the 7013 RS/6000s, the old TI mainframes, and stuff. Microsoftian
evaluation all the way.
Doc
8:12 p.m.
New subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....)
On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Doc wrote:
I was the LAN Op at Building 5, PRC from mid-98 thru
late last year.
That's literally next door to the cantral surplus barn. I was friends
with the guy who is now the director, who was the shop foreman then. I
can tell you first-hand that the Surplus department has a lot more
control over classification than the releasing department.
They must have more control. As I said on another thread, they auctioned
a huge load of very much on-topic stuff to me from that very barn.
There is some leeway as to what is designated DCE. If
the unit is
suffciently outdated and slow (OK, by THEIR standards), it's likely to
be sold as scrap at auction.
The auctions seem to be held by Swico Auctions (www.swicoauctions.com),
and there's one coming up on January 23. I'm waiting for them to post a
list of items. I don't have the money to make a haul this time, but I'm
still eager to see what will be there.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
17 Dec
17 Dec
1:04 p.m.
New subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....)
On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
I'd never heard of Swico till you mentioned them, and they look like a
good company. I've been dealing with Shattuck for years, and must say
those guys really seem to know how to run an auction.
On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Doc wrote:
Sounds like I may have to find a way of transportation to their next
auction. It sounds like they have better stuff and seem to care more then
the places down here.
I was the LAN Op at Building 5, PRC from mid-98
thru late last year.
That's literally next door to the cantral surplus barn. I was friends
with the guy who is now the director, who was the shop foreman then. I
can tell you first-hand that the Surplus department has a lot more
control over classification than the releasing department.
They must have more control. As I said on another thread, they auctioned
a huge load of very much on-topic stuff to me from that very barn. There is some
leeway as to what is designated DCE. If the unit is
suffciently outdated and slow (OK, by THEIR standards), it's likely to
be sold as scrap at auction.
The auctions seem to be held by Swico Auctions (www.swicoauctions.com),
and there's one coming up on January 23. I'm waiting for them to post
a list of items. I don't have the money to make a haul this time,
but I'm still eager
to see what will be there.
I know all too well how that goes...I've had to drop out of bidding on
some things before that I really would have liked to bought and gotten
running again. Sadly we have some moron dealers and individuals that go to
some of these auctions, who think they are really gonna be able to resell
say a dead VaxStation w/o monitor/kbd/mouse for $500-1000 or more ;P
-Toth
12:52 p.m.
New subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....)
On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Doc wrote:
They don't seem to worry about internal people getting data, but before
something is sold or transferred to an outside agency, they almost always
wipe or remove the drives. I've found much worse kinds of data on machines
I've picked up from thrift stores. One particular 386 EISA box I bought
came right to life after a little maintenance, and had a company's entire
payroll and corporate information on it. Some old IBM gear I ended up with
had old data on them from some oil company. I forget which company it was,
as I didn't archive the data.
Well, I envy you. They don't let the drives go that easily down here.
As I mentioned above, the keyboard/mice/cables are all being auctioned
off. Maybe that is UT's way of "getting back" at TDC?
If there is ever any interest in getting the keyboards/mice/cables at
auctions down here, I'd be willing to store/handle a fair amount of the
stuff. After walking thru the M.D. Anderson warehouses, it just made me
sick seeing 1000s of perfectly good machines piled up on pallets soon to
be scrapped and or sent off to TDC.
-Toth
On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote:
I guess it depends on which location/warehouse stuff is located at. UT
M.D. Anderson Cancer Center seems to auction off some of their older
non-pc stuff. UT Houston Health Science Center sends *everything* that
remotely resembles a computer to TDC. UT Medical Branch at Galveston also
seems to take no chances with SB1105 and sends nearly everything to TDC. I
haven't been to many UT Austin auctions, so I don't know what the normal
practice is there. I've never been to any of the UT San Antonio auctions,
but it sounds like they do a better job of sorting than most of the other
locations. Each location is run more or less independently from the
others, so this isn't surprising.
UT can't legally sell any old/surplus
equipment via a private sale. I've
talked to people about this in the past. There are laws that force all
agencies that get funding from the state of Texas to sell old/surplus
stuff via an auction only. Prior to 9/1/99, all old/surplus computer stuff
was sold to dealers and the public via an auction.
True. But anything bigger than a full-tower PC is VERY likely to get
designated, and sold as, scrap. > Since 9/1/99, UT sends anything that fits the
definition "Data Processing
> Equipment" to TDC. Most divisions of UT I'm familiar with include old
> Sun/VAX/Mainframe gear in the lots they send to TDC.
Because of the TDC regs, UT will generally do
backflips to avoid
outright retiring large IT equipment.
Likely also due to SB1105 explicitly stating TDC will not pay anything for
the equipment that is transfered to them. Prior to SB1105, state agencies
could at least get some money to cover the costs of storage and handling
of old equipment before it was auctioned.
There is some leeway as to what is designated DCE. If
the unit is
suffciently outdated and slow (OK, by THEIR standards), it's likely to
be sold as scrap at auction.
I've saw a few IBM rackmount systems that were sold as "scrap" at the last
M.D. Anderson auction. I wish I'd met someone from the list there, as they
had some interesting stuff that someone here would probably have liked to
acquire. I generally have to pass on the larger items (rackmount), due to
a current lack of space and no means to transport.
They can also donate equipment to approved entities.
The angle I'd work
would be that, to donate the stuff to a museum. The "approval process"
is a little murky.
Approved entities according to SB1105 seems to only include state
agencies. There may be another law that gets around this, but I'm not
aware of it. I have no idea what kind of procedures would be involved in
getting old equipment "donated".
> Based on what I've heard from various
warehouse personnel, they
> generally tend to interpret 'Data Processing Equipment' to mean the
> monitor and cpu/computer. They don't send TDC any keyboards, mice, or
> cables. I always wondered what TDC can actually do with this many (10s
> of 1000s+) incomplete/gutted computers?
The absence of peripherals is mostly due to the fact
that a wide range
of state-supported agencies, including ISD's and other UT departments,
can claim any surplus before it gets shipped to TDC. The number of
viable computers that make it through that gauntlet is more in the range
of a few hundred a year, and working keyboards, mice & monitors are
premium fodder.
The locations I mentioned above always have at least 2-3 pallets of
keyboards, 1 pallet of mice, and 4 or more pallets of cables in their
auctions. Any of those lots (they group the pallets) generally go for
about $5-$35.
UT is required
to remove all data from the machines they send TDC. Most
warehouses wipe the drives in the PC machines (only drives with
fat16/fat32 format), and remove and scrap any drives that don't fit that
profile. Some warehouses simply remove all drives and scrap them.
Uh-huh. I grabbed a PowerMac for our Imaging & Photo guy once that had
been in the UT clinic. There were psych profiles, legal petitions filed
because students had sought counselling for home situations that
involved harm to minors, case records, including names & addresses, you
name it. Scrapping
always means rendering the drive completely useless. Some
warehouses drill holes in the drives, and some run them thru an
industrial chipper. Even worse, they never remove the mounting
brackets from the drives before scrapping them.
I saw a lot of drives with lead solder dripped into the cable
connectors. I saw a lot more that were simply left in the machines,
especially the old workstations/servers. I don't think the people
responsible could really believe that anyone might want to power up a
unit that didn't say "Pentium". What I would
really like to know is how TDC is supposed to reuse/resell
these machines with no keyboards, no mice, and no hds/mounting brackets?
A whole lot of people, including the ones getting that crap, want to
know the same thing. What kills me is that they would tenderly
palletize, wrap, and ship P90s worth ~$25, and use the forklifts to
handle the 7013 RS/6000s, the old TI mainframes, and stuff. Microsoftian
evaluation all the way.
4:10 p.m.
New subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....)
On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote:
I guess it depends on which location/warehouse stuff
is located at. UT
M.D. Anderson Cancer Center seems to auction off some of their older
non-pc stuff. UT Houston Health Science Center sends *everything* that
remotely resembles a computer to TDC. UT Medical Branch at Galveston also
seems to take no chances with SB1105 and sends nearly everything to TDC. I
haven't been to many UT Austin auctions, so I don't know what the normal
practice is there. I've never been to any of the UT San Antonio auctions,
but it sounds like they do a better job of sorting than most of the other
locations. Each location is run more or less independently from the
others, so this isn't surprising.
Oh. My. God.
Reading this, I realized I'm as guilty as the little snobs going to UT
Austin. "You mean there are *other* UTs???" The other campusses just
never entered my mind.
Slinking off to dig a hole,
Doc
4:26 p.m.
New subject: Paper Tape Fun
I recently acquired (out of desperation) a DSI paper
tape punch/reader on ePay (at a reasonable price, but
not guaranteed to work). I cleaned it up, oiled it
here and there, and after puzzling out the RS-232, got
it running punching Mylar fine. To test it, I wrote a
Windows program to test it out with; the program lets
you type in a phrase, looks up the ASCII, and prints
the letters out on the tape in a 7x5 matrix format,
upper and lower case. I'm pretty sure that there were
programs that ran on mainframes to do this sort of
thing. Useless, but kind of fun - I made a banner for
my museum with it. If anyone on this list has a
punch, and admits to using Windows, ha ha, I can make
this available.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
9:11 p.m.
New subject: Paper Tape Fun
Loboyko Steve wrote:
I recently acquired (out of desperation) a DSI paper
tape punch/reader on ePay (at a reasonable price, but
not guaranteed to work). I cleaned it up, oiled it
here and there, and after puzzling out the RS-232, got
it running punching Mylar fine. To test it, I wrote a
Windows program to test it out with; the program lets
you type in a phrase, looks up the ASCII, and prints
the letters out on the tape in a 7x5 matrix format,
upper and lower case. I'm pretty sure that there were
programs that ran on mainframes to do this sort of
thing. Useless, but kind of fun
Not so useless. I've seen that technique used to label tapes. A little
more professional than a handscrawled name.
-- hbp
18 Dec
18 Dec
10:24 a.m.
New subject: Paper Tape Fun
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 1689 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011218/629136ee/at…
16 Dec
16 Dec
5:19 p.m.
New subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....)
On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote:
UT is required to remove all data from the machines
they send TDC. Most
warehouses wipe the drives in the PC machines (only drives with
fat16/fat32 format), and remove and scrap any drives that don't fit that
profile. Some warehouses simply remove all drives and scrap them.
Scrapping always means rendering the drive completely useless. Some
warehouses drill holes in the drives, and some run them thru an industrial
chipper. Even worse, they never remove the mounting brackets from the
drives before scrapping them.
I forgot to add that if you read the law carefully, the OS and installed
programs are specifically exempt from removal. Which is, in the case of
PCs especially, insane. Most Windows users have no idea where they're
storing data, and very few departmental "computer guys" are patient
enough to thoroughly check a PC for data files, email, bookmark files,
or whatever. IMNSHO that's Windows' single biggest sin - you can put any
file you want anywhere you want to. Or delete same. Back on track,
though, that provision leaves the doors open for a very wide range of
interpretation.
Doc
17 Dec
17 Dec
1:08 p.m.
New subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....)
On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Doc wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote:
I read the exact same section, and had the same thoughts. What I wish they
would do (and I've mentioned this to a few warehouse managers), is get the
free QuickRestore cdrom sets from Compaq (most of the pc machines they
have down here are Compaq), wipe the drive and do a clean install. If they
did this, and it were not for SB1105, they could then resell working pc
machine and get back some of the tax money they are currently throwing
away.
-Toth
UT is required to remove all data from the
machines they send TDC. Most
warehouses wipe the drives in the PC machines (only drives with
fat16/fat32 format), and remove and scrap any drives that don't fit that
profile. Some warehouses simply remove all drives and scrap them.
Scrapping always means rendering the drive completely useless. Some
warehouses drill holes in the drives, and some run them thru an industrial
chipper. Even worse, they never remove the mounting brackets from the
drives before scrapping them.
I forgot to add that if you read the law carefully, the OS and installed
programs are specifically exempt from removal. Which is, in the case of
PCs especially, insane. Most Windows users have no idea where they're
storing data, and very few departmental "computer guys" are patient
enough to thoroughly check a PC for data files, email, bookmark files,
or whatever. IMNSHO that's Windows' single biggest sin - you can put any
file you want anywhere you want to. Or delete same. Back on track,
though, that provision leaves the doors open for a very wide range of
interpretation.
8325
days inactive
8328
days old
13 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cmurillo＠emtelsa.multi.net.co -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
hansp＠aconit.org -
jhellige＠earthlink.net -
jss＠subatomix.com -
sloboyko＠yahoo.com -
tothwolf＠concentric.net