3 Oct
2005
3 Oct
'05
7:49 p.m.
Anyone know the best way to handle the restoration of plastic that has
yellowed due to being in someones basement or something? Has that dingy
brownish/yellowish tint to it.
I thought I saw a posting about it earlier, but cannot locate it now...
Thanks
4 Oct
4 Oct
4:50 a.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
Hello all,
I'm experiencing some monitors in the last time, mostly, but not only
from HP, with the effect of some kind of small bubbles
or shell-like
failures in the flront part of the crt-tube. Somewhere I read the
description of "screen mold".
Some of them seems to be stored at a lower temperature, more specific at
changing temperatures, in a garage with temperatures somehow closely
related to outside.
Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of it's source (is it
really temperature related?) or how to avoid this problem. Some of these
monitors (esp. of a HP9845) are looking so badly, that I don't dare to
power on.
Andreas
**
6:58 a.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
Andreas Holz wrote:
Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of
it's source (is it
really temperature related?) or how to avoid this problem. Some of these
monitors (esp. of a HP9845) are looking so badly, that I don't dare to
power on.
It's well-known; a lot of our HP equipment suffers from it too. I don't
think anyone's tracked down the exact cause yet (Sellam, didn't you
think you could get a sample of the stuff analysed if someone sent you
some?)
Whatever the stuff is, it attacks the sealant between the CRT and CRT
faceplate. I've successfully removed the decaying sealant on an HP 250
display using a bit of resistance wire and a scrap PC PSU, then resealed
(edges of the faceplate only, not the visible portion of the CRT) using
translucent waterproof sealant.
The CRT itself and faceplate were both unaffected by the decay; it only
affects the sealant between them.
The fact that I only resealed around the edges (it's too difficult to
apply sealant to the whole screen with home tools without getting air
bubbles in) means that there's a *little* less protection to the user
(the faceplate's pretty thin anyway) in the event of a CRT explosion,
but I figure this isn't a likely occurrance in the first place - and
having a usable screen's far better than a useless one!
I've seen the same problem on Digico displays, but not much else - it
seems to mainly get HP screens for some reason.
Anyway, good news is that it an be worked around :) In the case of our
HP 250 display, there was a lot of moisture trapped between faceplate
and CRT, so you're probably right in not powering on until you've sorted
it out, just in case the damp leaks and gets somewhere it's not supposed to.
cheers
Jules
1:03 p.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote:
It's well-known; a lot of our HP equipment suffers
from it too. I don't
think anyone's tracked down the exact cause yet (Sellam, didn't you
think you could get a sample of the stuff analysed if someone sent you
some?)
I was never able to come up with a sample :( Still on the back burner
though.
I've seen the same problem on Digico displays, but
not much else - it
seems to mainly get HP screens for some reason.
And Soroc dumb terminals :) If we can find the commonality between the
HP and Soroc CRTs (manufacturer?) it might give clues as to why it's
happening.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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2:35 p.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
At 01:03 PM 10/4/05 -0700, you wrote:
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote:
Most of the HP CRTs were made by Clinton Electronics. I can't say who
made the Soroc CRTs.
Joe
It's well-known; a lot of our HP equipment
suffers from it too. I don't
think anyone's tracked down the exact cause yet (Sellam, didn't you
think you could get a sample of the stuff analysed if someone sent you
some?)
I was never able to come up with a sample :( Still on the back burner
though.
I've seen the same problem on Digico
displays, but not much else - it
seems to mainly get HP screens for some reason.
And Soroc dumb terminals :) If we can find the commonality between the
HP and Soroc CRTs (manufacturer?) 
10:47 a.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
Hello all,
Are you the guy who's been asking for scheamtics over on hpmuseum.net?
I'm experiencing some monitors in the last time, mostly, but not only
from HP, with the effect of some kind of small bubbles or shell-like
failures in the flront part of the crt-tube. Somewhere I read the
description of "screen mold".
Some of them seems to be stored at a lower temperature, more specific at
changing temperatures, in a garage with temperatures somehow closely
related to outside.
Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of it's source (is it
The CRT faceplate is made of 2 pieces of glass bonded together (I think
it's like a laminated car windscreen, the idea being to support the glass
if the CRT should implode). It would appear that whatever was used for
the bonding either grows mould (fungus-type-stuff) or chemically changes.
At least one person here has used a thin wire to cut the bonding, then
removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded it. It
sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the CRT could
implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get the bonding
strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT then
subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant.
really temperature related?) or how to avoid this
problem. Some of these
monitors (esp. of a HP9845) are looking so badly, that I don't dare to
power on.
Which 9845 monitor do you have?
-tony
1:40 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold")
Tony Duell wrote:
At least one person here has used a thin wire to cut
the bonding, then
removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded it. It
sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the CRT could
implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get the bonding
strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT then
subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant.
That does beg the question of under what conditions a CRT implodes. Do
age-related implosions happen (or implosions for other reasons other
than mechanical shock)? I've never heard of a CRT imploding, except for
when physical damage has occured to it - but presumably it does happen.
In other words what are the risks - or is it a case of over-engineering
in the first place to make sure (to a reasonable extent) that there are
no problems out in user-land?
Also curious as to the extent of the outward blast / debris field (that
sounds horribly technical but I can't think of a better phrase!) when a
CRT does implode. I'd *assume* glass just extends outward a foot or two,
but happy to be corrected there! (of course an explosion would be a
rather different matter)
Actually, is the faceplate actually there for dsamage limitation reasons
- or in fact there to help prevent implosion in the first place from
mechanical shock? I imagine that coupled with the sealant layer it
provides a reasonable damper if the CRT is dropped with face-down.
Any people on the list involved (past or present)with CRT manufacture
who can provide more information?
cheers
Jules
1:28 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold")
Tony Duell wrote:
It is uncommon, but it's so unpleasant if it does happen that they have
to take precaustions against it. Before the introduction of rimbanded
CRTs in the 60's (1964 is the date I have for this), all TVs had a piece
of safety glass in front of the CRT. And remember this was long before
the current culture of blaming somebody if things go wrong.
I am told, BTW, that several radar operates in planes in the last war
were killed when the plane had a heavy landing, the radar display CRT
imploded, and they were litterally shot in the face by bits of the
electron gun.
Glass can fracture for no apparent reason. It's possible for there to be
internal stresses, and one day it just fails. You don't want to be
arround if this happens to an unprotected CRT
At least one person here has used a thin wire to
cut the bonding, then
removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded it. It
sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the CRT could
implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get the bonding
strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT then
subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant.
That does beg the question of under what conditions a CRT implodes. Do
age-related implosions happen (or implosions for other reasons other
than mechanical shock)? I've never heard of a CRT imploding, except for
when physical damage has occured to it - but presumably it does happen.
In other words what are the risks - or is it a case of over-engineering
in the first place to make sure (to a reasonable extent) that there are
no problems out in user-land?
Also curious as to the extent of the outward blast / debris field (that
sounds horribly technical but I can't think of a better phrase!) when a
CRT does implode. I'd *assume* glass just extends outward a foot or two,
but happy to be corrected there! (of course an explosion would be a
rather different matter)
It's not much diffeerent to an explosion. The gl;ass collapses inwards,
but it doesn't when it gets to the middle. It carries on, and flies all
over the place.
-tony
4:25 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold")
Tony Duell wrote:
I am told, BTW, that several radar operates in planes
in the last war
were killed when the plane had a heavy landing, the radar display CRT
imploded, and they were litterally shot in the face by bits of the
electron gun.
Not something I'd heard before - but I can certainly believe that; such
displays tend to be pretty large in diameter and of course are
flat-faced so must be naturally pretty weak toward the centre of the face.
It's not much diffeerent to an explosion. The
gl;ass collapses inwards,
but it doesn't when it gets to the middle. It carries on, and flies all
over the place.
Ouch! I presume most of the blast goes backwards though where the glass
is thinner. (It's interesting speculating about all of this - it's not a
topic I've seen crop up on the list before now)
cheers
Jules
4:07 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold")
I am told,
BTW, that several radar operates in planes in the last war
were killed when the plane had a heavy landing, the radar display CRT
imploded, and they were litterally shot in the face by bits of the
electron gun.
Not something I'd heard before - but I can certainly believe that; such
displays tend to be pretty large in diameter and of course are
flat-faced so must be naturally pretty weak toward the centre of the face. 
5 Oct
5 Oct
6:44 a.m.
New subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold")
>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell <ard
at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > I am told, BTW, that several radar operates
in planes in the
> last war > were killed when the plane had a heavy landing, the
> radar display CRT > imploded, and they were litterally shot in the
> face by bits of the > electron gun.
>
> Not something I'd heard before - but I can certainly believe that;
> such displays tend to be pretty large in diameter and of course
> are flat-faced so must be naturally pretty weak toward the centre
> of the face.
Tony> Actually, no. The standard radar CRT over here at that time was
Tony> the VCR97. That's a 6" diaameter thing with a fairly convex
Tony> screen. (Incidentally, VCR stood for Valve, Cathode Ray, or so
Tony> I am told).
But larger flat face radar tubes appeared in the 1960s if not
earlier. The CDC 6000 series console (DD60) uses a pair of radar
tubes, with electrostatic deflection. I'm not sure exactly how big
they are, but certainly not less than 12 inches. They were probably
at least 2 feet long. Deflection voltage is around 2 kV, supplied by
an amplifier chain ending in a 3CX100A5 microwave transmitter tube.
The radar tubes used until maybe 5 years ago at US air traffic control
centers were at least that big, possibly bigger, and also flat.
paul
4 Oct
4 Oct
6:51 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold")
Not something I'd heard before - but I can
certainly believe that; such
displays tend to be pretty large in diameter and of course are
flat-faced so must be naturally pretty weak toward the centre of the face.
The story is pure BS. Even the World War 2 CRTs have very sturdy faces.
Plus, any bits that could be flying towards the operator would be stopped
by the graticle.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
2:07 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
Some useful information here:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir
--jc
Jules Richardson wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
At least one person here has used a thin wire to
cut the bonding,
then removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded
it. It sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the
CRT could implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get
the bonding strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT
then subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant.
That does beg the question of under what conditions a CRT implodes. Do
age-related implosions happen (or implosions for other reasons other
than mechanical shock)? I've never heard of a CRT imploding, except
for when physical damage has occured to it - but presumably it does
happen.
In other words what are the risks - or is it a case of
over-engineering in the first place to make sure (to a reasonable
extent) that there are no problems out in user-land?
Also curious as to the extent of the outward blast / debris field
(that sounds horribly technical but I can't think of a better phrase!)
when a CRT does implode. I'd *assume* glass just extends outward a
foot or two, but happy to be corrected there! (of course an explosion
would be a rather different matter)
Actually, is the faceplate actually there for dsamage limitation
reasons - or in fact there to help prevent implosion in the first
place from mechanical shock? I imagine that coupled with the sealant
layer it provides a reasonable damper if the CRT is dropped with
face-down.
Any people on the list involved (past or present)with CRT manufacture
who can provide more information?
cheers
Jules
2:25 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
J.C. Wren wrote:
Some useful information here:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir
Rats, I almost checked there before posting too, but didn't recall any
such section on the site!
Interestingly, that info implies that it's the steel strap around the
perimeter of the CRT's face which does the implosion protection, and
that the laminated faceplate is purely an additional protection against
scratches etc. damaging the CRT itself (and therefore introducing greter
risk of implosion)
So that article alone suggests that the faceplate isn't there to stop
debris at all (although doubtless along with the sealant material it
helps).
Still, it'd be nice to hear from people who've actully been involved in
manufacturing CRTs I suppose!
I'm tempted to say that replacing the sealant material on anything past
1970 or so is a safe thing to do - providing nobody goes dropping the
CRT on its face, and providing that nobody tries smacking the face of
the CRT with something heavy. Still, that's just my judgement...
As for implosion risk in using heated wire to remove the faceplate...
Hmm. I was careful where I postioned myself when I removed the plate on
the HP 250 screen just in case, plus I went evenly from the corners a
bit at a time. Given the huge thickness of the CRT face* I would be
surprised if heated wire could cause it to break (the faceplate's
another matter as it's so thin, which is really why I was being careful
about the heating). Just a case of being careful though I suppose.
*I recall breaking TV CRTs apart as a kid and the glass at the front is
amazingly thick. Bricks bounce off happily without damaging the screen
at all.
cheers
Jules
1:34 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
J.C. Wren wrote:
That strip, normally called the rimband over here, is certainly for
implosion protection in some CRTs. But I suspect the double faceplate is
part of the implosion protection too.
Some useful information here:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir
Rats, I almost checked there before posting too, but didn't recall any
such section on the site!
Interestingly, that info implies that it's the steel strap around the
perimeter of the CRT's face which does the implosion protection, and bit at a time. Given the huge thickness of the CRT
face* I would be
surprised if heated wire could cause it to break (the faceplate's
Actually, one of the easiest ways to get stresses in glass is from uneven
heating/cooling (but I suspect the wire you used didn't get the glass
itself anything like hot enough for this to be a problem).
another matter as it's so thin, which is really
why I was being careful
about the heating). Just a case of being careful though I suppose.
*I recall breaking TV CRTs apart as a kid and the glass at the front is
amazingly thick. Bricks bounce off happily without damaging the screen
at all.
Work out the force on the faceplate due to air pressure (which you can
assume is 14 pounds per square inch). It's pretty large for TV-sized CRTs!
-tony
2:21 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
Interestingly,
that info implies that it's the steel strap around the
perimeter of the CRT's face which does the implosion protection, and
That strip, normally called the rimband over here, is certainly for
implosion protection in some CRTs. But I suspect the double faceplate is
part of the implosion protection too. bit at a time.
Given the huge thickness of the CRT face* I would be
surprised if heated wire could cause it to break (the faceplate's
Actually, one of the easiest ways to get stresses in glass is from uneven
heating/cooling (but I suspect the wire you used didn't get the glass
itself anything like hot enough for this to be a problem). Work out the force on the faceplate due to air
pressure (which you can
assume is 14 pounds per square inch). It's pretty large for TV-sized CRTs!
Several tonnes even on little ones 14"-20", even MORE on 36" CRT.
The largest CRT that was is hitachi 40" TV.
Cheers, Wizard
-tony
6:40 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 jpero at sympatico.ca wrote:
Several tonnes even on little ones 14"-20",
even MORE on 36" CRT.
The largest CRT that was is hitachi 40" TV.
I think you mean Mitsubishi, yes?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
6 Oct
6 Oct
12:50 a.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
jpero at sympatico.ca wrote:
Several tonnes even on little ones 14"-20",
even MORE on 36" CRT.
The largest CRT that was is hitachi 40" TV.
I've got a Ferguson 34" 4:3 TV. No idea who made the tube but it's a
monster.
I used to work in a TV shop, and when I moved into a new flat my
now-ex-girlfriend (not because of the TV!) asked if I couldn't somehow
get a good deal on a TV. So I asked, and my boss said "Yes I'll let you
have this trade-in one nice and cheaply, you'll probably want the van
for this though" - Ok, why? - "Well you've got to pick it up from the
guy's house and deliver this new one". Fortunately her band were round
rehearsing so the drummer (not a small chap) and I (not a small chap
either) lugged this behemoth of a set into the house.
It has a slight EW correction fault, but barring getting a Hiab to lift
the bloody thing I'm not exactly keen to haul it through to the bench.
Gordon.
4 Oct
4 Oct
5:50 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
ref the CRT 'mould' issue.
The problem is NOT related to the bond between the CRT face and the
safety faceplate at all. Any attempt to remove the CRT safety glass
would be foolish in the extreme. I don't believe you could remove the
bonded safety glass without permanent damage to the crt and probably
yourself - except perhaps on very early TV CRTs, (where the safety
glass was separate anyway) and I doubt there are any of those in
vintage computer systems under discussion
The CRTs in question have an ADDITIONAL anti-glare or similar screen
attached to the front of the (permanently) bonded safety glass
faceplate with some sort of silicon rubber type adhesive. The
sealant/adhesive between the bonded safety glass on the front of the
CRT and this additional anti-glare (or similar cosmetic etc effect)
glass screen is where the problem occurrs.
That said, caution is always required when working with CRTs, but the
hot wire technique works well to get this issue sorted.
DaveB, NZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: CRT implosions
J.C. Wren wrote:
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date: 3/10/2005
Some useful information here:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir
Rats, I almost checked there before posting too, but didn't recall
any such section on the site!
Interestingly, that info implies that it's the steel strap around
the perimeter of the CRT's face which does the implosion protection,
and that the laminated faceplate is purely an additional protection
against scratches etc. damaging the CRT itself (and therefore
introducing greter risk of implosion)
So that article alone suggests that the faceplate isn't there to
stop debris at all (although doubtless along with the sealant
material it helps).
Still, it'd be nice to hear from people who've actully been involved
in manufacturing CRTs I suppose!
I'm tempted to say that replacing the sealant material on anything
past 1970 or so is a safe thing to do - providing nobody goes
dropping the CRT on its face, and providing that nobody tries
smacking the face of the CRT with something heavy. Still, that's
just my judgement...
As for implosion risk in using heated wire to remove the
faceplate... Hmm. I was careful where I postioned myself when I
removed the plate on the HP 250 screen just in case, plus I went
evenly from the corners a bit at a time. Given the huge thickness of
the CRT face* I would be surprised if heated wire could cause it to
break (the faceplate's another matter as it's so thin, which is
really why I was being careful about the heating). Just a case of
being careful though I suppose.
*I recall breaking TV CRTs apart as a kid and the glass at the front
is amazingly thick. Bricks bounce off happily without damaging the
screen at all.
cheers
Jules
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date:
3/10/2005
6:23 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote:
As for implosion risk in using heated wire to remove
the faceplate...
Hmm. I was careful where I postioned myself when I removed the plate on
the HP 250 screen just in case, plus I went evenly from the corners a
bit at a time. Given the huge thickness of the CRT face* I would be
surprised if heated wire could cause it to break (the faceplate's
another matter as it's so thin, which is really why I was being careful
about the heating). Just a case of being careful though I suppose.
I've stored monitors outside in the baking sun during summer for extended
periods of time. I've had the CRT heat up so much that it quite literally
burned you if you touched the surface. However, none ever spontaneously
imploded. My guess is that you'd have to have enough heat that the glass
began to melt before it imploded, and even then it wouldn't implode but a
gapwould open and the tube would re-atmospherize.
Still, if I were to do what Jules did, in the very least I'd wear safety
goggles and some leather gloves.
*I recall breaking TV CRTs apart as a kid and the
glass at the front is
amazingly thick. Bricks bounce off happily without damaging the screen
at all.
Yep. There's 6-8 pounds of lead in a CRT, with the majority of it (90%+)
being in the face, which is also by far the thickest part. This is to
protect viewers against the X-ray emissions. I imagine it also
contributes to the structural strength of the tube.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
5 Oct
5 Oct
6:47 a.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage
Computer Festival <vcf at siconic.com> writes:
Vintage> Yep. There's 6-8 pounds of lead in a CRT, with the majority
Vintage> of it (90%+) being in the face, which is also by far the
Vintage> thickest part. This is to protect viewers against the X-ray
Vintage> emissions. I imagine it also contributes to the structural
Vintage> strength of the tube.
I don't know about that. Leaded glass has assorted nice properties
(high refractive index and high dispersion are two that explain why it
has been used for centuries in fancy glassware, and also in optical
devices) but I don't think that higher strenght is one of them.
paul
6:55 a.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
Paul Koning wrote:
Just hold a glass cup of a particular size and construction, and a
leaded glass cup of the same size and construction and you will see how
much stronger the leaded glass is. It's quite noticeable even to the
layman.
Peace... Sridhar
>>>>"Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival <vcf at
siconic.com> writes:
Vintage> Yep. There's 6-8 pounds of lead in a CRT, with the majority
Vintage> of it (90%+) being in the face, which is also by far the
Vintage> thickest part. This is to protect viewers against the X-ray
Vintage> emissions. I imagine it also contributes to the structural
Vintage> strength of the tube.
I don't know about that. Leaded glass has assorted nice properties
(high refractive index and high dispersion are two that explain why it
has been used for centuries in fancy glassware, and also in optical
devices) but I don't think that higher strenght is one of them. 
8:38 a.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
Just hold a glass cup of a particular size and
construction, and a
leaded glass cup of the same size and construction and you will see
how much stronger the leaded glass is.
Hardly. You may be able to see how much heavier it is, or some such,
but without testing them to destruction you won't be able to tell which
is actually stronger.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1:30 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
I've stored monitors outside in the baking sun
during summer for extended
periods of time. I've had the CRT heat up so much that it quite literally
burned you if you touched the surface. However, none ever spontaneously
imploded. My guess is that you'd have to have enough heat that the glass
began to melt before it imploded, and even then it wouldn't implode but a
gapwould open and the tube would re-atmospherize.
It's uneven heating -- geting one part of the glass hot while the rest
remains cold -- that sets up thermal stresses in the stuff. Splashing
wanter on a hot filament lamp will often cause it to break, not because
it would break if cooled evenly to the water temperature (after all, it
cools to room temperature when it's switched off) but because you cool
some parts of the glass and not others.
Still, if I were to do what Jules did, in the very least I'd wear safety
goggles and some leather gloves.
At least one service manual I have suggests wearing a leather apron to
proctect 'those other important bits' :-)
-tony
3:12 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
At 09:30 PM 10/5/05 +0100, you wrote:
LOL! Did it actually say that? :-) I've never seen a manual that got
that direct.
Joe
I've
stored monitors outside in the baking sun during summer for extended
periods of time. I've had the CRT heat up so much that it quite literally
burned you if you touched the surface. However, none ever spontaneously
imploded. My guess is that you'd have to have enough heat that the glass
began to melt before it imploded, and even then it wouldn't implode but a
gapwould open and the tube would re-atmospherize.
It's uneven heating -- geting one part of the glass hot while the rest
remains cold -- that sets up thermal stresses in the stuff. Splashing
wanter on a hot filament lamp will often cause it to break, not because
it would break if cooled evenly to the water temperature (after all, it
cools to room temperature when it's switched off) but because you cool
some parts of the glass and not others.
Still, if I were to do what Jules did, in the very least I'd wear safety
goggles and some leather gloves.
At least one service manual I have suggests wearing a leather apron to
proctect 'those other important bits' :-)
-tony
6 Oct
6 Oct
8:12 a.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
At least one
service manual I have suggests wearing a leather apron to
proctect 'those other important bits' :-)
LOL! Did it actually say that? :-) I've never seen a manual that got
that direct.
Joe
-tony
4 Oct
4 Oct
6:18 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, J.C. Wren wrote:
Some useful information here:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir
Generally good information. What you should impart from this is that you
probably shouldn't worry about a CRT imploding (but exercise prudent
caution always of course).
From the article:
"If I was handling these things in such a way as to have the possibility
of dropping one, I'd insist on body armor and face protection. And if it
involves a picture tube, I insist on competent trained professionals for
service."
I work with CRTs all day on some days (unfortunately) and once in a while
a monitor or TV will fall off the pallet I'm stacking, from heights of
anywhere from a couple feet to 6-7 feet. In most cases, the case gets
cracked up pretty bad but the CRT remains intact. If anything does break,
it's usually the neck or stem, and you can hear the hiss of the air
rushing into the back of the tube: nothing to worry about there. On rare
occasions, the TV or monitor falls flat on its face, and that usually
means get out the broom and dustpan to sweep up the shattered shards of
glass, but always within the confines of a small pile no larger than the
size of the CRT itself; glass does NOT go shooting off in all directions.
Basically, I'm generally in awe of the durability of CRTs. I've dropped
bare CRTs before and they tend to just bounce. I've dropped monitors that
then continue to work just fine.
So unless you're doing something really weird, fixing the delamination
issue on affected CRTs should be a nominally safe endeavour.
From the article:
"Conclusion: According to my experience, spectacular picture tube
implosions are something like cars in movies that explode upon roll-over,
hitting a tree or driving down the cliffs: an urban legend."
I concur.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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4 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, J.C. Wren wrote:
Some useful information here:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir
I work with CRTs all day on some days (unfortunately)
and once in a while
a monitor or TV will fall off the pallet I'm stacking, from heights of
anywhere from a couple feet to 6-7 feet. In most cases, the case gets
cracked up pretty bad but the CRT remains intact. If anything does break,
it's usually the neck or stem, and you can hear the hiss of the air
rushing into the back of the tube: nothing to worry about there. On rare
occasions, the TV or monitor falls flat on its face, and that usually
Basically, I'm generally in awe of the durability
of CRTs. I've dropped
bare CRTs before and they tend to just bounce. I've dropped monitors that
then continue to work just fine.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
My coworker was taking something from shelf and unfortunely he
snagged a line cord belonging to the 13" tv sitting on top shelf 9
feet up and yanked it down I was only 10 feet away. That tv hit the
cement floor dead center on it's face with a glassine shrill "BOOM!"
Opened it up, yoke & neck went through inside the CRT leaving huge
jagged hole where flare used to be and only mark on face is scratch
marks.
I will not forget that sound. "BOOM!" of air imploding in a instant.
When I am disposing junk CRTs,
Yes, I have heard the "whish!" if neck accidently shattered or the
long fading sigh of "whoooosh" or a quick whoosh if the little pip
broken or a long, long hiss if someone cracked the pip partially.
I heard of CRT "explode" but my days was before the time when CRT was
just that, big glass bottles without implosion protection.
Over the years, I have heard of stories of TVs falling. Some made it
through, most didn't make it either CRT shadow mask wrecked or
circuit board in pieces or CRT cracked. Only one that stuck was a
older philips TV had chassis completely popped out of it's rails and
board is completely intact but CRT mask wasn't. Rails is very
strong and deep yet board escaped. Wow.
Plastic didn't make it very often. BTW, don't drop a Sanyo TV. :)
Their plastic is complete cr*p, simply shattered into pieces
like a lead glass. I even smashed through Sanyo TV cabinet plastic
when hitting it trying to get it to act up with a flat slap. :(
Cheers, Wizard
5 Oct
5 Oct
4:21 a.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:00:29 +0000
jpero at sympatico.ca wrote:
Safe disposal practice (if you don't think a dumpster diver is coming
along afterwards, in which case you're ruining the kit for him) is to
evacuate the CRT before pitching it by breaking off the little nipple on
the neck and evacuating the tube. You get a whooshing sound as the air
pulls in.
But back when I was in tech school and practicing troubleshooting by
buying and fixing thrift-store TV sets to give away to friends, my
experience was that it's HARD to break the CRT on a TV set. I remember
bouncing a 9" portable set face down off the blacktop and bouncing a
hammer off the face. (it's easy when you're in your early 20's to think
you are indestructable and try stuff like that all the time) The glass
is REALLY thick on the face of any modern (later than early 60's) TV
set.
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, J.C. Wren wrote:
Some useful information here:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir
I work with CRTs all day on some days
(unfortunately) and once in a
while a monitor or TV will fall off the pallet I'm stacking, from
heights of anywhere from a couple feet to 6-7 feet. In most cases,
the case gets cracked up pretty bad but the CRT remains intact. If
anything does break, it's usually the neck or stem, and you can hear
the hiss of the air rushing into the back of the tube: nothing to
worry about there. On rare occasions, the TV or monitor falls flat
on its face, and that usually
Basically, I'm generally in awe of the
durability of CRTs. I've
dropped bare CRTs before and they tend to just bounce. I've dropped
monitors that then continue to work just fine.
Sellam Ismail Vintage
Computer Festival
My coworker was taking something from shelf and unfortunely he
snagged a line cord belonging to the 13" tv sitting on top shelf 9
feet up and yanked it down I was only 10 feet away. That tv hit the
cement floor dead center on it's face with a glassine shrill "BOOM!"
Opened it up, yoke & neck went through inside the CRT leaving huge
jagged hole where flare used to be and only mark on face is scratch
marks.
I will not forget that sound. "BOOM!" of air imploding in a instant.
When I am disposing junk CRTs,
Yes, I have heard the "whish!" if neck accidently shattered or the
long fading sigh of "whoooosh" or a quick whoosh if the little pip
broken or a long, long hiss if someone cracked the pip partially.
I heard of CRT "explode" but my days was before the time when CRT was
just that, big glass bottles without implosion protection.
Over the years, I have heard of stories of TVs falling. Some made it
through, most didn't make it either CRT shadow mask wrecked or
circuit board in pieces or CRT cracked. Only one that stuck was a
older philips TV had chassis completely popped out of it's rails and
board is completely intact but CRT mask wasn't. Rails is very
strong and deep yet board escaped. Wow.
Plastic didn't make it very often. BTW, don't drop a Sanyo TV. :)
Their plastic is complete cr*p, simply shattered into pieces
like a lead glass. I even smashed through Sanyo TV cabinet plastic
when hitting it trying to get it to act up with a flat slap. :(
Cheers, Wizard
6 Oct
6 Oct
12:53 a.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
jpero at sympatico.ca wrote:
My coworker was taking something from shelf and
unfortunely he
snagged a line cord belonging to the 13" tv sitting on top shelf 9
feet up and yanked it down I was only 10 feet away. That tv hit the
cement floor dead center on it's face with a glassine shrill "BOOM!"
Opened it up, yoke & neck went through inside the CRT leaving huge
jagged hole where flare used to be and only mark on face is scratch
marks.
Don't forget that the scan coils are a big heavy assembly with lots of
copper and ferrite, and they're only held in place because they're glued
to a glass tube about the diameter of but with thinner walls than a
large test tube.
Gordon.
4 Oct
4 Oct
9:11 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
"Conclusion: According to my experience,
spectacular picture tube
implosions are something like cars in movies that explode upon roll-over,
hitting a tree or driving down the cliffs: an urban legend."
If the car is full of CRTs when it goes off a cliff, then will it explode?
Or do you also need saddle tanks and a triggered explosive?
5 Oct
5 Oct
4:23 a.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:11:41 -0700 (PDT)
Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
Probably evacuate the CRT tubes and fill them with propane for best
effect.
"Conclusion: According to my experience, spectacular picture tube
implosions are something like cars in movies that explode upon
roll-over, hitting a tree or driving down the cliffs: an urban
legend."
If the car is full of CRTs when it goes off a cliff, then will it
explode? Or do you also need saddle tanks and a triggered explosive?
4 Oct
4 Oct
11 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
On Tue, 2005-10-04 at 18:18 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
c. 1975 Electronics Australia had a series of articles on tube
explosions. These were limited (IIRC) to 'rim banded' colour tubes
which had a tensioned flat metal band around the screen to take the
load. If the tube lost its vacuum the band would explode the screen out
into the surrounding room. The initial cause of failure was suggested
to be scratches on the screen caused by cleaning (diamond rings etc.)
but there wasn't much left to look at.
So I would say that such spectacular explosions have occurred, but are
unlikely with current tube designs. Of course, maybe some here have
colour tubes c. 1975.
--
Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360
From the
article:
"Conclusion: According to my experience, spectacular picture tube
implosions are something like cars in movies that explode upon roll-over,
hitting a tree or driving down the cliffs: an urban legend." 
5:22 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
I'll never seen anything horrendous in so far as implosions. I used to
service Mac's "back in the day" and had to replace a few CRT's on the
original Macs. Apple would send the replacement monitor in a box and
inside was another box that you placed the whole mac inside of, you'd
follow the standard discharge and then purposely snap the tip of the
neck off the back of the monitor before closing up the box and disposing
of it, it was a scary moment the first time, but just a quick zip of air
and it was done, never had anything happen, did a few dozen monitor
replacements and disposals.
Curt
Jules Richardson wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date: 10/3/2005
At least one person here has used a thin wire to
cut the bonding,
then removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded
it. It sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the
CRT could implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get
the bonding strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT
then subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant.
That does beg the question of under what conditions a CRT implodes. Do
age-related implosions happen (or implosions for other reasons other
than mechanical shock)? I've never heard of a CRT imploding, except
for when physical damage has occured to it - but presumably it does
happen.
In other words what are the risks - or is it a case of
over-engineering in the first place to make sure (to a reasonable
extent) that there are no problems out in user-land?
Also curious as to the extent of the outward blast / debris field
(that sounds horribly technical but I can't think of a better phrase!)
when a CRT does implode. I'd *assume* glass just extends outward a
foot or two, but happy to be corrected there! (of course an explosion
would be a rather different matter)
Actually, is the faceplate actually there for dsamage limitation
reasons - or in fact there to help prevent implosion in the first
place from mechanical shock? I imagine that coupled with the sealant
layer it provides a reasonable damper if the CRT is dropped with
face-down.
Any people on the list involved (past or present)with CRT manufacture
who can provide more information?
cheers
Jules
5:38 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
I'll never seen anything horrendous in so far as
implosions. I used
to service Mac's "back in the day" and had to replace a few CRT's on
the original Macs. Apple would send the replacement monitor in a box
and inside was another box that you placed the whole mac inside of,
you'd follow the standard discharge and then purposely snap the tip
of the neck off the back of the monitor before closing up the box and
disposing of it, it was a scary moment the first time, but just a
quick zip of air and it was done, never had anything happen, did a
few dozen monitor replacements and disposals.
Yeah, a small crack in a not-particularly-stressed part of the tube is
rather unlikely to produce spectacular implosions. (The evacuation
pinch-off is about as unstressed a part of the tube as it gets.)
I remember, as a kid, going to the village dump. There were usually
some dead TVs with the cases gone, and I'd throw a rock into the CRTs
from as far away as I could throw rocks (even then
I'd heard of CRT
implosion danger). Never seemed to be much more dramatic than
a glass
vessel of similar size and shape with no pressure differential, but of
course I was rather far away. It also could be that a thrown rock is
not the sort of stress that produces implosion failures.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
5:39 p.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
That's how I scrapped out VT100 tubes at DEC and elsewhere.
That's kind of a controlled failure since the suction pretty much is
controlled by the small input at the back of the neck.
An uncontrolled failure could be different. I've seen one old 1960
vintage tv blow up and the glass was retained by a plastic or glass
sheet across the black and white tube.
Never saw anything like a real accident, though.
Bill
Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
I'll never seen anything horrendous in so far as
implosions. I used
to service Mac's "back in the day" and had to replace a few CRT's on
the original Macs. Apple would send the replacement monitor in a box
and inside was another box that you placed the whole mac inside of,
you'd follow the standard discharge and then purposely snap the tip of
the neck off the back of the monitor before closing up the box and
disposing of it, it was a scary moment the first time, but just a
quick zip of air and it was done, never had anything happen, did a few
dozen monitor replacements and disposals.
Curt
Jules Richardson wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
At least one person here has used a thin wire to
cut the bonding,
then removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded
it. It sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the
CRT could implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get
the bonding strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT
then subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant.
That does beg the question of under what conditions a CRT implodes.
Do age-related implosions happen (or implosions for other reasons
other than mechanical shock)? I've never heard of a CRT imploding,
except for when physical damage has occured to it - but presumably it
does happen.
In other words what are the risks - or is it a case of
over-engineering in the first place to make sure (to a reasonable
extent) that there are no problems out in user-land?
Also curious as to the extent of the outward blast / debris field
(that sounds horribly technical but I can't think of a better
phrase!) when a CRT does implode. I'd *assume* glass just extends
outward a foot or two, but happy to be corrected there! (of course an
explosion would be a rather different matter)
Actually, is the faceplate actually there for dsamage limitation
reasons - or in fact there to help prevent implosion in the first
place from mechanical shock? I imagine that coupled with the sealant
layer it provides a reasonable damper if the CRT is dropped with
face-down.
Any people on the list involved (past or present)with CRT manufacture
who can provide more information?
cheers
Jules
5 Oct
5 Oct
6:24 a.m.
New subject: CRT implosions
>>>> "curt" == curt <@ Atari
Museum" <curt at atarimuseum.com>> writes:
curt> I'll never seen anything horrendous in so far as implosions.
I've seen one that was fairly spectacular. My father had an old TV
CRT sitting around, from back in the separate glass shield days Tony
mentioned. He carried it (carefully so as not to bump into things) to
the car and took it to the dump. We set it out in the back of the
dump, face down, stepped back 20 feet, and tossed bricks at it. We
hit it where the neck joins the body. "Thud" sound and chunks of
glass spread several feet.
We were far enough away that it wasn't a hazard to us, and it
certainly didn't spray bits as an explosion would. But it was
sufficiently impressive that it taught me to handle all large glass
vacuumm tubes with caution. Bumping into a stair rail and having it
break in your hands would definitely be a Bad Day.
paul
4 Oct
4 Oct
2:38 p.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
At 06:47 PM 10/4/05 +0100, you wrote:
Loboyko Steve <sloboyko at yahoo.com>. He also posted a long message about
how to get the glass plates apart, clean them and reassemble the whole
thing. It should be in the archives.
Joe
Hello all,
Are you the guy who's been asking for scheamtics over on hpmuseum.net?
I'm experiencing some monitors in the last time, mostly, but not only
from HP, with the effect of some kind of small bubbles or shell-like
failures in the flront part of the crt-tube. Somewhere I read the
description of "screen mold".
Some of them seems to be stored at a lower temperature, more specific at
changing temperatures, in a garage with temperatures somehow closely
related to outside.
Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of it's source (is it
The CRT faceplate is made of 2 pieces of glass bonded together (I think
it's like a laminated car windscreen, the idea being to support the glass
if the CRT should implode). It would appear that whatever was used for
the bonding either grows mould (fungus-type-stuff) or chemically changes.
At least one person 
5 Oct
5 Oct
1:39 a.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
At least one person here has used a thin wire to cut
the bonding, then
removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded it. It
sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the CRT could
implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get the bonding
strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT then
subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant.
The (plastic) faceplate is *not* an implosion protection, it is a contrast
and anti-glare plate. All (TV) picture tubes since around 1968 have an
implosion protection that is integral to the tube and not simply glued on
top of it.
Second, a CRT won't just implode on its own (that's a fairy tale). The
front screen really needs a very big shock before it cracks. The most
fragile part of a CRT is the section from the conus to the neck of the
tube. And if the neck should break the rest won't implode, the parts are
just too solid. There were several companies in the old days who removed
the neck of a used CRT and replaced it with one with a new gun system.
Christian
1:38 p.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
The (plastic) faceplate is *not* an implosion protection, it is a contrast
Are we talking about the same thing? I am not talking about the thin
plastic anti-glare filter that's a seprate part and fitted between the
CRT and bezel in some monitors. I am talking about wat seems to be a
second glass layer that is bonded to the CRT (and not just round the edges.
and anti-glare plate. All (TV) picture tubes since
around 1968 have an
implosion protection that is integral to the tube and not simply glued on
top of it.
It was assembled to the CRT at manufactuer (i.e. not when the CRT was put
into the monitor). I am not convinced it couldn't be part of an imposion
protdction system.
Second, a CRT won't just implode on its own
(that's a fairy tale). The
I am certainly not convinced of this....
Every TV, monitor, etc since the war has had some kind of imposion
protection. This must have cost something to provide, it would not be
done if it wasn't necessary (note that even the cheapest TVs still have
it). An implosion might be rare, but it was surely a real risk.
front screen really needs a very big shock before it
cracks. The most
fragile part of a CRT is the section from the conus to the neck of the
tube. And if the neck should break the rest won't implode, the parts are
just too solid. There were several companies in the old days who removed
the neck of a used CRT and replaced it with one with a new gun system.
Absolutely. And they did so with great care. Even just cracking off the
tip of the pinch-off tube was not suitable for this, the inrush of air
would damage the phosphor coating on the screen (next time you throw out
a defective CRT and crack the pinch-off tube to let the vacuum out, look
at the screen afterwards). There were various ways of doing it, but all
basically let the air in slowly.
-tony
3:10 p.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
At 09:18 PM 10/5/05 +0100, you wrote:
There are 2 'green' ones. The normal one (which I can't remember the
model mumber for) and the enhanced graphics one (HP98780). I have one of
the latter.
Actually I think there's THREE green ones but I could be wrong. I don't
think I've ever looked to see which models are one my 9845s.
Joe
Which 9845 monitor do you have?
The green one (two with "screen mold" and two without).
6 Oct
6 Oct
8:07 a.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
Actually I think there's THREE green ones but I could be wrong. I don't
think I've ever looked to see which models are one my 9845s.
I was only aware of a total of 3 different monitors for the 9845. There's
the standard monochrome one (could this take an internal graphics board
as an option?), the enhanced mono one (98780) and the colour one (98770)
These monitors, of course, contain much of the video display circuity.
The ehanced mnonochrome monitor must contain around 200 chips, including
an HP custom thing in a 64 pin DIL package with heatsink pillars that
bolt to the side of the case. It is clearly an address generator for
doing things like line drawing.
I am told the colour one is even more fun inside, with a board of AMD
29xx bitslice ICs. Alas I don't have one, and there's little chance of me
finding one (it would have to be local to me, there's no way it could be
shipped).
-tony
4 Oct
4 Oct
12:59 p.m.
New subject: "screen mold"
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Andreas Holz wrote:
I'm experiencing some monitors in the last time,
mostly, but not only
from HP, with the effect of some kind of small bubbles or shell-like
failures in the flront part of the crt-tube. Somewhere I read the
description of "screen mold".
Nowadays the consensus is leaning towards a delamination process.
Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of
it's source (is it
really temperature related?) or how to avoid this problem. Some of these
monitors (esp. of a HP9845) are looking so badly, that I don't dare to
power on.
Most likely it is the protective cover over the CRT which is delaminating
from the CRT face. I don't currently know of a way
to prevent this. It
seems to happen randomly.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
8:13 a.m.
Star Master wrote:
Anyone know the best way to handle the restoration of
plastic that has
yellowed due to being in someones basement or something? Has that dingy
brownish/yellowish tint to it.
I thought I saw a posting about it earlier, but cannot locate it now...
Thanks
Depends on what caused the staining. Usually yellows due
to exposure to sunlight, or tobacco. Is there a smoker in the
house?
Try 409 (a cleaner). Spray on, let sit, wipe off.
Repeat until the yellow gunk stops coming off.
Works well for tobacco stains, and some sunlight problems.
Won't make it pristine, but greatly reduces the problem
without doing any damage.
5 Oct
5 Oct
10:55 a.m.
Star Master wrote:
Anyone know the best way to handle the restoration of
plastic that has
yellowed due to being in someones basement or something? Has that dingy
brownish/yellowish tint to it.
I thought I saw a posting about it earlier, but cannot locate it now...
Thanks
A lot of yellowing is simply due to degradation of the pigments contained in most ABS or
PC (polycarbonate) cases or the coatings thereon. While you may be able to buff off the
discoloration if it's not too bad, your best bet is to simply paint over it. A good
job can make an old piece of equipment look like new.
Cheers,
Chuck
7017
days inactive
7019
days old
46 comments
22 participants
participants (22)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
asholz＠topinform.de -
aw288＠osfn.org -
cc＠corti-net.de -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chenmel＠earthlink.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
jcwren＠jcwren.com -
jpero＠sympatico.ca -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
kth＠srv.net -
ljw-cctech＠ljw.me.uk -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
pechter＠gmail.com -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
starmaster＠gmail.com -
tractorb＠ihug.co.nz -
vcf＠siconic.com