17 Mar
2016
17 Mar
'16
7:45 a.m.
I was thinking of using a M9301 board to get a console emulator and some
different bootstraps with the 11/05. But can I just put the M9301 in the
slot where the M930 normally goes? Slot 4 AB.
From looking in the schematics I get that:
1. The bus grant pull ups on the M9301 is through jumpers. According to the
note they should only be installed on 11/70 systems. But the M930 do pull
these up (no jumpers here) so my guess is that these jumpers should be
installed.
2. The M930 connects much more signals to a common ground. Except for the
normal ones the M9301 uses for ground (AC2, BC2, AT1 and BT1) it also has
connected AB2, BB2, AN1, AP1, AR1, AS1, AV2, BD1, BE1, BV2 to ground.
Reading the pin assignments on a MUD slot I think that putting a M930 into
it could potentially create a lot of smoke. BV2 is -5V and AV2 is +20V if
the appropriate regulator is in the system.
M9301 goes into MUD slots. But can it go into the slot where a M930
normally sits?
My thinking is that it should work. What is your experience?
/Mattis
17 Mar
17 Mar
8:01 a.m.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:
I was thinking of using a M9301 board to get a console
emulator and some
different bootstraps with the 11/05. But can I just put the M9301 in the
slot where the M930 normally goes? Slot 4 AB.
From looking in the schematics I get that:
1. The bus grant pull ups on the M9301 is through jumpers. According to the
note they should only be installed on 11/70 systems. But the M930 do pull
these up (no jumpers here) so my guess is that these jumpers should be
installed.
2. The M930 connects much more signals to a common ground. Except for the
normal ones the M9301 uses for ground (AC2, BC2, AT1 and BT1) it also has
connected AB2, BB2, AN1, AP1, AR1, AS1, AV2, BD1, BE1, BV2 to ground.
Reading the pin assignments on a MUD slot I think that putting a M930 into
it could potentially create a lot of smoke. BV2 is -5V and AV2 is +20V if
the appropriate regulator is in the system.
M9301 goes into MUD slots. But can it go into the slot where a M930
normally sits?
My thinking is that it should work. What is your experience?
/Mattis
I am not 1/2 as knowledgeable as others here, but what comes to mind is
"backplane change", I think you'd leave the M930 where it is and on the 2nd
backplane segment install the M9301. If you don't have a 2nd plane I'd say
you may not be able to use this. Just my GUESS, but I am interested to
learn the correct answer.
b
--
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9:01 a.m.
I think you'd leave the M930 where it is and on
the 2nd
backplane segment install the M9301. If you don't have a 2nd plane I'd say
you may not be able to use this. Just my GUESS, but I am interested to
learn the correct answer.
The PDP-11/05S I got had a M9301 in it when it arrived and it was installed
in a M930 slot (slot 3 AB). So that might be an indication that it could
work. But that is a different backplane.
If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930
or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short
circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) cannot
be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that those boards go into MUD
slots. But electrically I cannot see that it shouldn't work. Especially if
you jumper W1 - W5.
b
--
@ BillDeg:
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Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
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10:24 a.m.
If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930
or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short
circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) cannot
be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that those boards go into MUD
slots. But electrically I cannot see that it shouldn't work. Especially if
you jumper W1 - W5.
Once I tried putting a M9312 into the backplane of my 11/05 NC. The M9312
did not boot to the console monitor, but there should be a way to do it, I
just did not find it. I have an expanded backplane. If you look at the
M9312 or M9301 you can surmise that these are not going to do anything like
what the M930 does
M930:
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-05/EM_8Kx16_Planar_Memory_companio…
The M9301 is a ROM card, just like the M9312, one is an older model and
they're compatible roughly I believe. I recall from the manual that one
could use the M9301 in an 11/05, but was not able pursue if it works yet
for my set up. I will eventually check this, but if there is a test you'd
like me to try send and I will fire up the system. I have the manual, I'd
want to read up on it first to be sure I am installing correctly. Not sure
what ROM is installed on the card I have.
b
--
@ BillDeg:
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Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
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11:24 a.m.
2016-03-17 15:24 GMT+01:00 william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>:
In what slot did you put the M9312 in your 11/05 NC? In a MUD slot in the
Unibus expansion bus? Did you remove any of the other M930 boards then?
The M9312 and M9301 are nearly identical except for the way how the ROM
addressing takes place.
I would say that M9312 and M9301 has all functions of the M930 plus some
additional functions. They are bus terminators all of them. But M9301 and
M9312 has built in ROM and bootstrap logic whereas the M930 has not. The
M9302 on the other hand is a terminator plus the SACK logic.
If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930
or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short
circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312)
cannot
be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that
those boards go into
MUD
slots. But electrically I cannot see that it
shouldn't work. Especially
if
you jumper W1 - W5.
Once I tried putting a M9312 into the backplane of my 11/05 NC. The M9312
did not boot to the console monitor, but there should be a way to do it, I
just did not find it. I have an expanded backplane. If you look at the
M9312 or M9301 you can surmise that these are not going to do anything like
what the M930 does
M930:
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-05/EM_8Kx16_Planar_Memory_companio…
The M9301 is a ROM card, just like the M9312, one is an older model and
they're compatible roughly I believe. I recall from the manual that one
could use the M9301 in an 11/05, but was not able pursue if it works yet
for my set up. I will eventually check this, but if there is a test you'd
like me to try send and I will fire up the system. I have the manual, I'd
want to read up on it first to be sure I am installing correctly. Not sure
what ROM is installed on the card I have.
b
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
/Mattis
12:27 p.m.
On Mar 17, 2016, at 6:01 AM, Mattis Lind
<mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:
Hopefully this will clarify a few things:
?Unibus?: These are the AB connectors in the *last* position of a backplane.
It allows for bridging between backplanes. The only ?card? that can go these
?slots? is a terminator (ie M930) or a terminator bootstrap (ie M9312).
SPC: These are the CDEF connectors in any of the slots of a ?unibus? backplane.
Not all backplanes support SPC slots.
MUD: These are the AB connectors in some newer backplanes (usually associated with
the extra slots in a CPU backplane?11/34 and 11/04 CPUs have MUD slots). MUD
stands for ?Modified Unibus Device?. They are *not* compatible with Unibus slots
as they have different voltages present than what are on the Unibus slots. You *will*
?blow out? a board by plugging something designed for a Unibus slot into a MUD
slot.
TTFN - Guy
>
If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930
or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short
circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) cannot
be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that those boards go into MUD
slots. But electrically I cannot see that it shouldn't work. Especially if
you jumper W1 - W5.
12:35 p.m.
2016-03-17 17:27 GMT+01:00 Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com>:
Yes. That is pretty clear from pin assignment list that bad things WILL
happen if you try to install a Unibus-slot-compatible device into a MUD
slut. But the vice-versa? Installing a MUD-compatible device into a
Unibus-slot?
On Mar 17, 2016, at 6:01 AM, Mattis Lind
<mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:
cannot
>
If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930
or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short
circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that
those boards go into
MUD
slots. But electrically I cannot see that it
shouldn't work. Especially
if
you jumper W1 - W5.
Hopefully this will clarify a few things:
?Unibus?: These are the AB connectors in the *last* position of a
backplane.
It allows for bridging between backplanes. The only ?card? that can go
these
?slots? is a terminator (ie M930) or a terminator bootstrap (ie M9312).
SPC: These are the CDEF connectors in any of the slots of a ?unibus?
backplane.
Not all backplanes support SPC slots.
MUD: These are the AB connectors in some newer backplanes (usually
associated with
the extra slots in a CPU backplane?11/34 and 11/04 CPUs have MUD slots).
MUD
stands for ?Modified Unibus Device?. They are *not* compatible with
Unibus slots
as they have different voltages present than what are on the Unibus
slots. You *will*
?blow out? a board by plugging something designed for a Unibus slot into a
MUD
slot.
TTFN - Guy
/Mattis
12:37 p.m.
On Mar 17, 2016, at 9:35 AM, Mattis Lind
<mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-17 17:27 GMT+01:00 Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com>:
Yes. That is pretty clear from pin assignment list that bad things WILL
happen if you try to install a Unibus-slot-compatible device into a MUD
slut. But the vice-versa? Installing a MUD-compatible device into a
Unibus-slot?
Most of those are memory boards and from my recollection they just won?t
work.
TTFN - Guy
On Mar 17, 2016, at 6:01 AM, Mattis Lind
<mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:
cannot
>
If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930
or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short
circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that
those boards go into
MUD
slots. But electrically I cannot see that it
shouldn't work. Especially
if
you jumper W1 - W5.
Hopefully this will clarify a few things:
?Unibus?: These are the AB connectors in the *last* position of a
backplane.
It allows for bridging between backplanes. The only ?card? that can go
these
?slots? is a terminator (ie M930) or a terminator bootstrap (ie M9312).
SPC: These are the CDEF connectors in any of the slots of a ?unibus?
backplane.
Not all backplanes support SPC slots.
MUD: These are the AB connectors in some newer backplanes (usually
associated with
the extra slots in a CPU backplane?11/34 and 11/04 CPUs have MUD slots).
MUD
stands for ?Modified Unibus Device?. They are *not* compatible with
Unibus slots
as they have different voltages present than what are on the Unibus
slots. You *will*
?blow out? a board by plugging something designed for a Unibus slot into a
MUD
slot.
1:08 p.m.
Yes. That is
pretty clear from pin assignment list that bad things WILL
happen if you try to install a Unibus-slot-compatible device into a MUD
slut. But the vice-versa? Installing a MUD-compatible device into a
Unibus-slot?
Most of those are memory boards and from my recollection they just won?t
work.
TTFN - Guy
1:50 p.m.
11/70: M9301-YC -- E-F Slot #1. It's specially wired like everything else in Slot #1
through Slot #39. SPC doesn't start until Slot #40. M9302 goes in Row A-B Slot #44.
KW11 (clock) goes adjacent in Row D Slot #1.
Row C Slot #1 is empty.
Rows A-B Slot #1 take the FP & CP maintenance modules, if in use.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 1:09 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301?
...
What still would be interesting to know is in what slot the M9301 or M9312 goes into a
PDP-11/70. My guess is the last unibus slot on the bus with the jumpers installed. Much
like the M9313 terminator and unibus exerciser which is in the last slot of the 11/750
unibus.
/Mattis
TTFN - Guy
1:59 p.m.
2016-03-17 18:50 GMT+01:00 Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com>:
11/70: M9301-YC -- E-F Slot #1. It's specially
wired like everything
else in Slot #1 through Slot #39. SPC doesn't start until Slot #40. M9302
goes in Row A-B Slot #44.
KW11 (clock) goes adjacent in Row D Slot #1.
Row C Slot #1 is empty.
Rows A-B Slot #1 take the FP & CP maintenance modules, if in use.
I just found a rather unfocused picture of the backplane of a 11/70. And my
guess was completely wrong. As you wrote it is in slot 1 EF. And the M9302
in the last slot as normal.
/Mattis
2:26 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-17 18:50 GMT+01:00 Paul Birkel <pbirkel at
gmail.com>:
I took a look at my 11/40, it has a 9312 in pos 1/2 in the middle of the
2nd/rear of two backplanes here:
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/NPG.JPG
With this arrangement I can boot into the console monitor installed on the
9312.
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/Console_test.JPG
--
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Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
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11/70: M9301-YC -- E-F Slot #1. It's
specially wired like everything
else in Slot #1 through Slot #39. SPC doesn't start until Slot #40.
M9302
goes in Row A-B Slot #44.
KW11 (clock) goes adjacent in Row D Slot #1.
Row C Slot #1 is empty.
Rows A-B Slot #1 take the FP & CP maintenance modules, if in use.
I just found a rather unfocused picture of the backplane of a 11/70. And my
guess was completely wrong. As you wrote it is in slot 1 EF. And the M9302
in the last slot as normal.
/Mattis
4:02 p.m.
I took a look at my 11/40, it has a 9312 in pos 1/2 in the middle of the
2nd/rear of two backplanes here:
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/NPG.JPG
With this arrangement I can boot into the console monitor installed on the
9312.
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/Console_test.JPG
This means that you not have the terminator in the last slot of the bus,
right? Since your bus is so short it won't probably matter.
I have now beeped my way through all signals of the AB slots of the
11/05-NC backplane. Slots 2-9 has "Standard Unibus Pin Assignments" No MUD
slots anywhere.
Then I rechecked the M9301 and M9312 schematics. There are no signals used
on those that would conflict with the "Standard Unibus Pin Assignments". I
will also check the boards physically to see if there is a difference in
signals that are used. Then unless someone tell me "it won't work, I have
tried setting a M9301 in a standard unibus slot" I will go ahead and try
it. After all this is how my PDP-11/05-S was configured when it arrived.
/Mattis
4:25 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:
Dave McGuire and I went over the system and concluded the same, basically
it's either put it there or I can't have an RL02 drive controller because
the NC Grant. Dave pulled the NC Grant wire from the backplane (where the
NC Grant card is now).
Anyway, I think the RAM card I have installed in this machine is
conflicting somehow with the RL02 attempt to initialize, this is TBD, but I
can't quite boot the machine.
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
I took a look at my 11/40, it has a 9312 in pos 1/2 in the middle of the
2nd/rear of two backplanes here:
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/NPG.JPG
With this arrangement I can boot into the console monitor installed on
the
This means that you not have the terminator in the last slot of the bus,
right? Since your bus is so short it won't probably matter.
4:59 p.m.
This means
that you not have the terminator in the last slot of the bus,
right? Since your bus is so short it won't probably matter.
Dave McGuire and I went over the system and concluded the same, basically
it's either put it there or I can't have an RL02 drive controller because
the NC Grant. Dave pulled the NC Grant wire from the backplane (where the
NC Grant card is now).
Anyway, I think the RAM card I have installed in this machine is
conflicting somehow with the RL02 attempt to initialize, this is TBD, but I
can't quite boot the machine.
I cannot really understand how the RAM card can conflict with the RL02
controller unless they are broken somehow. Fault in the address decoding
maybe? I have a QBUS memory board that responds to almost the entire range.
/Mattis
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billdegnan＠gmail.com -
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