30 Oct
2012
30 Oct
'12
12:10 p.m.
I currently have a dual-channel 30mhz analog scope, the Intronix
34-channel 500mhz 2k samples max logic analyzer, a Saleae Logic
8-channel 24mhz unlimited samples and a (much) older 60mhz DSO on it's
last legs.
The 30 & 60 mhz analog scopes are simply too big and cumbersome to use.
These new scopes are much smaller and more convenient.
For logic analyzers, I have FAST, WIDE, but short buffer. And a slow,
narrow, mega-long buffer(limited by PC RAM more or less). These both
have their good points but to round out my tools, I need something that
ballparks 200mhz, 32-channels, and decent buffer. What's a decent
buffer? I don't know exactly. I know 2k isn't even close. And that a
million+ is really nice.
These are both PC-based logic analyzers and I'm fine with that. The
software is sufficient with both and gets me the measurements I need.
Of course, I'd prefer standalone units but still would like to export
data to a PC (say via USB or serial). This would simplify the process
and the UIs of dedicated devices have usually been thought out a little
more than the PC software.....
I was seriously looking at a Rigol DS1102D which is 100mhz, 16-channel
LA + 2 analog channels. My only real beef is that it's 16-channels and
not 32. Could really use 32 to do a 16-bit data bus and other stuff
(partial address, etc)
I can't easily tell looking at the specs what the depth of the LA would
be. Would I simply divide the 1 million point memory by the 16 channels?
http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000d/ds1102d/
Rigol's have gotten great reviews.
Or do I get a scope only, and then use something cheap like this
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer
and solder another 16-pin header onto that and go 32-channels, 200mhz,
6k depth. Or buy a kickass eval board and hack SUMP onto it, and get a
deeper solution.....
While I'm a huge fan of HP and Tektronix, and I know there is old
hardware at reasonable prices --- I don't want to mess with trying to
piece parts a large mainframe together from untrusted sources, and spend
time trying to fix something like that. Plus, the specs are normally not
even close to that of modern equipment. I'd rather invest time hacking
verilog onto a new eval board that has plenty of fast memory...............
Any discussion would be helpful.
Thanks,
Keith
30 Oct
30 Oct
12:48 p.m.
On Oct 30, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Keith Monahan wrote:
I currently have a dual-channel 30mhz analog scope,
the Intronix 34-channel 500mhz 2k samples max logic analyzer, a Saleae Logic 8-channel
24mhz unlimited samples and a (much) older 60mhz DSO on it's last legs.
The 30 & 60 mhz analog scopes are simply too big and cumbersome to use. These new
scopes are much smaller and more convenient.
For logic analyzers, I have FAST, WIDE, but short buffer. And a slow, narrow, mega-long
buffer(limited by PC RAM more or less). These both have their good points but to round out
my tools, I need something that ballparks 200mhz, 32-channels, and decent buffer.
What's a decent buffer? I don't know exactly. I know 2k isn't even close. And
that a million+ is really nice.
If you want that, I'd look at old HP logic analyzers on eBay. You can get
good deals, and 200+ MHz with millions of samples won't completely break
the bank. They're modular, too. Only problem is that they're not exactly
small; you're generally talking about 4U rack size, even in a desktop box.
These are both PC-based logic analyzers and I'm
fine with that. The software is sufficient with both and gets me the measurements I
need.
Of course, I'd prefer standalone units but still would like to export data to a PC
(say via USB or serial). This would simplify the process and the UIs of dedicated devices
have usually been thought out a little more than the PC software.....
The HP ones will do that, though some of the really old ones will only do
it with a floppy. The one I used recently (probably mid-'90s vintage)
had a floppy drive and an Ethernet port, and it ran some version of HP-UX,
so you could transfer via NFS and FTP.
I was seriously looking at a Rigol DS1102D which is
100mhz, 16-channel LA + 2 analog channels. My only real beef is that it's 16-channels
and not 32. Could really use 32 to do a 16-bit data bus and other stuff (partial address,
etc)
I can't easily tell looking at the specs what the depth of the LA would be. Would I
simply divide the 1 million point memory by the 16 channels?
I don't quite recall, actually, as the amount of memory was way overkill
for what we needed. It had a 32-bit word width, though, and I'm pretty
sure it could do at least 2 million samples (2M 32-bit words).
Or do I get a scope only, and then use something cheap
like this
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer
Hm, for my purposes, that looks handy. I might have to look into that!
While I'm a huge fan of HP and Tektronix, and I
know there is old hardware at reasonable prices --- I don't want to mess with trying
to piece parts a large mainframe together from untrusted sources, and spend time trying to
fix something like that. Plus, the specs are normally not even close to that of modern
equipment. I'd rather invest time hacking verilog onto a new eval board that has
plenty of fast memory...............
You'd be surprised how well an old HP logic analyzer holds up. They're
pretty tough; we've never seen broken parts on one yet (admittedly, we
don't exactly go through them like popcorn). The specs are pretty
generous, too; you won't be sniffing any multi-gig serializer channels,
but you can easily get ones that'll do 200 MHz "state" (sync) and over
500 MHz "timing" (async) for not a lot of money. They also do scope
modules, but I can't imagine not using a real scope for anything unless
I absolutely needed the capture capability linked to the logic.
That said, I could understand it if you couldn't dedicate the desk
space and a spare monitor and keyboard to the cause. They're not
lunchbox scopes, after all. :-)
- Dave
1:21 p.m.
On 10/30/2012 03:48 PM, David Riley wrote:
Hm, for my purposes, that looks handy. I might have to look into that!
I have one. It is handy on occasion for the very simplest of stuff,
but it's not a real test instrument.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:30 p.m.
Subject: Re: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice
I have a pair of instruments that one can't live without the other:
- HP16500C with HP16505A and lots and lots of options - This is my
"heavy gun". I can connect it to my PC's bus and see what code it is
executing. But don't have I2C, serial and SPI decoding.
- Saleae (clone) - Only 8 channels, but I can decode serial, I2C, SPI,
CAN, TWI and lots of other protocols
And I don't have $500 of toys.
Of course, when money gets better, I'll look for the 16ch Saleae, which
is fantastic but too expensive for me at this time.
1:42 p.m.
On 10/30/2012 04:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I have a pair of instruments that one can't
live without the other:
- HP16500C with HP16505A and lots and lots of options - This is my
"heavy gun". I can connect it to my PC's bus and see what code it is
executing. But don't have I2C, serial and SPI decoding.
- Saleae (clone) - Only 8 channels, but I can decode serial, I2C,
SPI, CAN, TWI and lots of other protocols
And I don't have $500 of toys.
Of course, when money gets better, I'll look for the 16ch Saleae,
which is fantastic but too expensive for me at this time.
When money gets better, you've gotta get your big box of stuff shipped
down to you. ;) If I recall correctly, there's some 16500-series stuff
in there. And I've added a few little gifts to the pile
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:55 p.m.
When money gets better, you've gotta get your big
box of stuff shipped
down to you. ;) If I recall correctly, there's some 16500-series stuff
in there. And I've added a few little gifts to the pile
Sure, there are the pattern generators in there :o) But I can use them
on the 16700 too hehehe :o)
4:32 p.m.
On 10/30/2012 04:55 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Yes. :-)
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
When money
gets better, you've gotta get your big box of stuff shipped
down to you. ;) If I recall correctly, there's some 16500-series stuff
in there. And I've added a few little gifts to the pile
Sure, there are the pattern generators in there :o) But I can use
them on the 16700 too hehehe :o) 
1:59 p.m.
On 10/30/2012 3:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Those little 8 channel units are just so
impressive. Since getting one,
I have gotten a second one (clone, for trips), and the 1650A and Tek LAs
have yet to be out of mothballs after the move.
I have a 2465 Tek (I think that's the model), 4 channel 300MHz analog
scope, and even if you adds all 5 units up, I have less than $600 in all
of it.
I seriously considered a 1102 (I forget the brand, but we've talked
about it here recently), but I am still debating about it and a complete
PC scope.
I like the idea of a standalone device, but it seems I am never far from
my computer anymore, and it's easier to take on computer show trips and
help people hacking on new projects if it's not standalone.
Jim
Subject: Re:
DSO / logic analyzer buying advice
I have a pair of instruments that one can't live without the other:
- HP16500C with HP16505A and lots and lots of options - This is my
"heavy gun". I can connect it to my PC's bus and see what code it is
executing. But don't have I2C, serial and SPI decoding.
- Saleae (clone) - Only 8 channels, but I can decode serial, I2C,
SPI, CAN, TWI and lots of other protocols 
1:23 p.m.
If you happen to be anywhere near the Seattle area I have multiple good
working HP 16500B & 16700 mainframes and modules that I should try to
rehome while they still have any $ value left. They don't sell for much on
eBay anymore.
-Glen
1:38 p.m.
How much for a 16700, Glen? How much does it weight?
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice
If you happen to be anywhere near the Seattle area I
have multiple good
working HP 16500B & 16700 mainframes and modules that I should try to
rehome while they still have any $ value left. They don't sell for much on
eBay anymore.
-Glen
2:34 p.m.
On Oct 30, 2012 1:43 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at
gmail.com>
wrote:
How much for a 16700, Glen? How much does it weight?
A 16700 is much lighter than a 16500 without the heavy CRT. You would still
probably end up paying double the mainframe value for the shipping to
Brazil. I'd have to look at rates.
16700A mainframes go unsold at $150 on eBay now.
2:02 p.m.
On 10/30/2012 3:48 PM, David Riley wrote:
It's just darn cheap and the specs on it are VERY reasonable for the
price. The sacrifice (I don't own one, yet) likely comes in the form of
limited software. $50 is cheap, and some add-ons, like the voltage
translator board (for the extra pins) is like $15.
Or do I get a
scope only, and then use something cheap like this
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer
Hm, for my purposes, that looks handy. I might have to look into
that! The
specs are pretty generous, too; you won't be sniffing any multi-gig
serializer channels, but you can easily get ones that'll do 200 MHz
"state" (sync) and over 500 MHz "timing" (async) for not a lot of
money.
That's actually fine..... 200/500 is plenty for my purposes.
That said, I could understand it if you couldn't
dedicate the desk
space and a spare monitor and keyboard to the cause. They're not
lunchbox scopes, after all. :-)
and therein lies the rub. I've got a couple large scopes already, and
I'm trying to replace, not add to it. I want smaller, shinier, bright
high-resolution and high-update screens. Convenient to use and store.
Trust me, I've drooled over those HP mainframes before. They just
aren't practical for my needs.
Keith
2:23 p.m.
On 10/30/2012 05:02 PM, Keith Monahan wrote:
and therein lies the rub. I've got a couple large
scopes already, and
I'm trying to replace, not add to it. I want smaller, shinier, bright
high-resolution and high-update screens. Convenient to use and store.
What "large" scopes are you wanting to be rid of, if I may ask? (I
might be able to give some a home)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4437
days inactive
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13 comments
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participants (6)
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brain＠jbrain.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
keithvz＠verizon.net -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com