22 Dec
2005
22 Dec
'05
5:55 p.m.
I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so
the history is essentially unknown, but I was told it was 'untested'
which I took to mean non-working.
The PX8 had suffered a minor burn-up in the PSU area, which I have cured
(one new transsitor, resistor and zener diode. The computer now seems to
work find (and it's a very nice toy).
With it, I got a PF10 floppy drive. This is a single 3.5" unit, with a
38400 baud serial interdace back to the PX8. I had to make up my own
cable, but I have checked and double-checked it, and anyway it works fine
to link a PX8 to a PX4 via the RS232 interfaces (essentially the same
pinout as the 'high speed' serial interface to the disk drive). In fact
what I did was make up a cable from the 8 pin nini-DIN plug to fit the
PX8 to a DB25 plug,, wired as a DTE and a second cable with a DB25 socket
to a 8 pin mini-DIN, wired to do the right swaps and jumpers.
OK, a bit of background on the PF10 internals. There's a 6303X
microcontroller (in an 80 pin package...) linked to a 27C64 EPROM
(socketed) and a 6116 SRAM (SMD again). Address decoding is mainly done
by a '138, with a few other TTL chips.
Linked to that is a 765 disk controller, drivers for the head stepper
motor, a data seperator chip, read/write chain, etc (note, there is no
seperate logi board on the drive mechanism, the heads, stepper, etc plug
straight into the controller board).
There are several power supply lines, most of them under the control of
the microcontroller. In particular, there's an always-on 5V line, a
switcehd 5V Line (the disk controller, etc, is powered down when the unit
is idle), +/- supplies for the RS232 drivers, a +12V line for the
analogue circuitry.
OK, at power-on, the 'power' LED comes on (I have connected 5V from my
bench supply in place of the NiCd battery pack). The always-on 5V line is
at 4.95V. None of the othher supples are present (this could be right at
this point)
I connected it to the PX8, DIR D: gives 'BDOS ERROR ON D: SELECT'. A
breakout box connected between the computer and the drive (RS232 levels,
rememeber) shows that when I run that command, the computer's serial port
is turned on, something comes on on the TxD line, but the disk drive
never turns on its port or sends anything back.
More worrying, reducing the voltage from by bench supply never turns on
the low battery LED on the drive unit. This is controlled by the
microcontroller, BTW.
I pulled it apart, of course. The serial data from the PX8 does get to
the appropriate pin on the microcontroller. The microcontroller is
clocking (1.23MHz on the Eclk pin), it's accessing the ROM, but it also
appears to be wandering around the memory map (outputs on the '138
decoder that are not used for anything are being asserted at times). The
address lines look odd to me, with pulses narrower than the Eclk on some
of them.
Since the ROM is socketed, I pulled it and read it out. It looks sane.
Certainly no data bit is stuck high or stuck low, and all the address
lines do something. Assuming it's like a 68xx processor, with reset and
interrupt vectors at the top of memory, that looks sane too.
I suspect the microocontroller or the RAM. Alas both are SMD (and
therefore a pain to remove), I have spares for neither and no way to get
them.
Any comments, suggestions, or things to check?
(Yes, I know about PC-based emulators for these drives, but I'd like to
get the real unit working too).
-tony
22 Dec
22 Dec
3:24 p.m.
I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I
bought this on E-bay, so
I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will mention that
I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you are interested in
the content.
clocking (1.23MHz on the Eclk pin), it's accessing
the ROM, but it also
appears to be wandering around the memory map (outputs on the '138
decoder that are not used for anything are being asserted at times). The
address lines look odd to me, with pulses narrower than the Eclk on some
of them.
Since the ROM is socketed, I pulled it and read it out. It looks sane.
Certainly no data bit is stuck high or stuck low, and all the address
lines do something. Assuming it's like a 68xx processor, with reset and
interrupt vectors at the top of memory, that looks sane too.
If you have correctly identified the vectors, they should point into the
ROM space ...
If you can get the exact CPU type, I may have a disassembler that will
let you peek into the startup code a little better.
I suspect the microocontroller or the RAM. Alas both
are SMD (and
therefore a pain to remove), I have spares for neither and no way to get
them.
Any comments, suggestions, or things to check?
As noted above I don't have a PF10, so this is only general info.
If the code in the EPROM is good, it's likely bad RAM (stack), contention
on the bus causing corrupted reads, or a bad buffer (or even the micro)
also causing bad reads. - But I suspect you already know this.
Given that so many parts are SMD but the EPROM is socketed, the first
thing I would probably do is to use my EPROM emulator (or program
another 2764 if you don't have one) to do a simple single JMP instruction
infinite loop out of reset - this will tell you if the CPU can read and execute
code from the ROM, and will give you a much more stable bus to look at.
Assumign that works, I might then fill the ROM with NOPs (and a JMP at
the end to the beginning) so that I could see activity on the address bus.
MOV immediates can be used to get a specific (or incrementing) data
pattern every few cycles as well (now you know what I like to use an
EPROM emulator for this).
Lastly, one little tool I have in my "homebuilt gadgets" box is a 28 pin
"plug" attached to a little board with a ROM socket ,a bit of logic and
a really dumb UART (the kind you setup in hardware). What the logic
does is map one 256 byte block to read the status (RX ready, TX
ready) and Data registers (you don't need 256 bytes for this but it
was easy), and one 256 byte block to write the data register (The
low byte of the address is the data you write). To make it work in
either "high vector" or "low vector" systems, it's worth putting
on
jumper to move the block to either end.
I've written a number of "Hardware Debug Monitors" which work on
this board, and don't use any RAM which enable me to to basic
Display/Write memory operations - With this tool, as long as the ROM
runs, you can "get inside" the BUS - Btw, I also include "loop read"
and "loop write" function - terminated by RESET - very handy when
debugging at this level.
Dave
--
dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html
8:15 p.m.
I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I
bought this on E-bay, so
I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will mention that
I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you are interested in
the content. clocking (1.23MHz on the Eclk pin), it's
accessing the ROM, but it also
appears to be wandering around the memory map (outputs on the '138
decoder that are not used for anything are being asserted at times). The
address lines look odd to me, with pulses narrower than the Eclk on some
of them.
Since the ROM is socketed, I pulled it and read it out. It looks sane.
Certainly no data bit is stuck high or stuck low, and all the address
lines do something. Assuming it's like a 68xx processor, with reset and
interrupt vectors at the top of memory, that looks sane too.
If you have correctly identified the vectors, they should point into the
ROM space ...
If you can get the exact CPU type, I may have a disassembler that will
let you peek into the startup code a little better.
It's an HD6303X. I can look up all the letters (things like the clock
rating) if you need them, but that should be enough. In any case, writing
a disassembler is not going to take me too long if I need to do it.
I suspect the microocontroller or the RAM. Alas
both are SMD (and
therefore a pain to remove), I have spares for neither and no way to get
them.
Any comments, suggestions, or things to check?
As noted above I don't have a PF10, so this is only general info.
If the code in the EPROM is good, it's likely bad RAM (stack), contention
on the bus causing corrupted reads, or a bad buffer (or even the micro)
also causing bad reads. - But I suspect you already know this.
Given that so many parts are SMD but the EPROM is socketed, the first
thing I would probably do is to use my EPROM emulator (or program
another 2764 if you don't have one) to do a simple single JMP instruction
infinite loop out of reset - this will tell you if the CPU can read and execute
code from the ROM, and will give you a much more stable bus to look at.
Assumign that works, I might then fill the ROM with NOPs (and a JMP at
the end to the beginning) so that I could see activity on the address bus.
MOV immediates can be used to get a specific (or incrementing) data
pattern every few cycles as well (now you know what I like to use an
EPROM emulator for this).
Fortunately I do have an EPROM emulator. This is a good idea, well worth
trying. Next thing is to get out the datasheets and find the opcodes for
jmp and nop ;-)
-tony
6:03 p.m.
Other (related) things that I am looking for....
1) The plastic ROM carriers. These are plastic mouldings that you put a
DIP-packaged EPROM into, then crimp the pins over. The same carriers were
used in the Tandy M100, and I think 24-pin versions were used in that
Panasonic hand-held machine that gets mentioned here. I need the 28 pin
ones, I think Molex once made them.
Don't have any spares unfortunately - but FWIW, I believe it is possible to insert
ROMs without them (not great, but possible). I believe I have seen a reference to
this somewhere on the web.
2) Is the PX4 technical manual on the net anywhere
(I've found the PX8
one already). The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout of the
cartridge connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there
which doesn't seem to work.
I'd be interested in any of this info as well.
The ROM sits in the second half of the address space
(it's an 8K ROM,
27C64, and it's enabled when A15 is high. It's ghosted 4 times). If this
is like a 68xx, I would expect vectors at the very top of the address
space, with the highest one of all to be the reset vector MSB first.
This ROM contains what looks like code in the first half or so. Then a
large block of FFs. And then the vectors. The very top one is 'E000'
which would point to the first byte of the ROM. Most of the others are
EExx, again in the 'code-like' part of the ROM.
I agree - this sounds like a 68xx architecture.
If you can get
the exact CPU type, I may have a disassembler that will
let you peek into the startup code a little better.
It's an HD6303X. I can look up all the letters (things like the clock
rating) if you need them, but that should be enough. In any case, writing
a disassembler is not going to take me too long if I need to do it. Fortunately I do have an EPROM emulator. This is a
good idea, well worth
trying. Next thing is to get out the datasheets and find the opcodes for
jmp and nop ;-)
Assuming it is a 6801/03 compatible CPU:
E000 7E E0 00 2 JMP *
E003 01 3 NOP
Dave
--
dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html
23 Dec
23 Dec
9:02 a.m.
Other (related) things that I am looking for....
1) The plastic ROM carriers. These are plastic mouldings that you put a
DIP-packaged EPROM into, then crimp the pins over. The same carriers were
used in the Tandy M100, and I think 24-pin versions were used in that
Panasonic hand-held machine that gets mentioned here. I need the 28 pin
ones, I think Molex once made them.
Don't have any spares unfortunately - but FWIW, I believe it is possible to insert
ROMs without them (not great, but possible). I believe I have seen a reference to
this somewhere on the web. 2) Is the PX4
technical manual on the net anywhere (I've found the PX8
one already). The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout of the
cartridge connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there
which doesn't seem to work.
I'd be interested in any of this info as well. The ROM sits in the second half of the address
space (it's an 8K ROM,
27C64, and it's enabled when A15 is high. It's ghosted 4 times). If this
is like a 68xx, I would expect vectors at the very top of the address
space, with the highest one of all to be the reset vector MSB first.
This ROM contains what looks like code in the first half or so. Then a
large block of FFs. And then the vectors. The very top one is 'E000'
which would point to the first byte of the ROM. Most of the others are
EExx, again in the 'code-like' part of the ROM.
I agree - this sounds like a 68xx architecture. I don't have a Hitachi data book handy, although I
know there are some
"somewhere" in the workshop - I'm guessing that this is a second-source
of a Motorola 6803, which is essentially a ROMless 6801, which is a
slightly enhanced 6800.
It is a much enhanced 6803 I think. The 6303X has quite a bit of on-chip
I/O (including a serial port, 2 counter/timers, etc). But fortunately for
me it is ROMless.
E000 7E E0 00 2 JMP *
E003 01 3 NOP
Thanks... I spent a bit more time on it this afternoon.
I desoldered the '138 address decoder and fitted a socket (it's a normal
PTH DIL package). Bent out the pin that would select the RAM, and tied
that pin on the socket high (thus disabling the on-board RAM). Then
soldered a 6116 DIL pacakge on top of the EPROM with the WE/ and CE/ pins
bent out. Connected those to the Wr/ line and the output of the address
decoder. No change.
I then pulled that kludge and the disk controller chip. At this point the
only active thing on the bus was the processor (RAM disabled, the other 2
chips pulled). hardwared a NOP (01 hex) onto the data lines. OK, it'll
read that as the reset vector too, but should then execute NOPs through
the entire 64K address spece.
Well, the low 8 address lines count up nicely, the high ones are crazy
(bursts of activity with relaticely long gaps). And the Wr/ line is being
asserted (surely not for a NOP).
I am pretty sure the processor is dead, and have desoldered it (80 pin
PQFP, I only lifted one pad on the board, and that is easy to repair).
So now I am looking for a HD63A03XF (I will check that if anyone thinks
they know where to find one). My junk box does contain an HD63A03XP which
is a 64 pin shrink-DIP. I think it's electrically the same, I might be
able to kludge it in (e.g. by sticking it on top of the FDC chip or
something). All I need to do now is get the pinout of that (I know where
to look) and get soldering... Well, unless somebody knows where to find
the exact replacement.
-tony
2:43 p.m.
On Thursday 22 December 2005 06:03 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote:
Not just a second source, the Hitachi parts are CMOS while the 68xx parts are
NMOS, if I'm remembering right. I just looked for my databook on these,
and can't find it (too damn much clutter in here :-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
It's an
HD6303X. I can look up all the letters (things like the clock
rating) if you need them, but that should be enough. In any case, writing
a disassembler is not going to take me too long if I need to do it.
I don't have a Hitachi data book handy, although I know there are some
"somewhere" in the workshop - I'm guessing that this is a second-source
of a Motorola 6803, which is essentially a ROMless 6801, which is a
slightly enhanced 6800.
2:41 p.m.
On Thursday 22 December 2005 08:15 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
Other (related) things that I am looking for....
1) The plastic ROM carriers.
As am I, as well. Assuming I can get the thing working again, that is.
These are plastic mouldings that you put a
DIP-packaged EPROM into, then
crimp the pins over. The same carriers were used in the Tandy M100, and I
think 24-pin versions were used in that Panasonic hand-held machine that
gets mentioned here. I need the 28 pin ones, I think Molex once made them.
Interesting tidbit that they were used in those other machines, I didn't know
that.
2) Is the PX4 technical manual on the net anywhere
(I've found the PX8
one already).
Do you have a link handy?
The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout of
the cartridge
connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there which doesn't
seem to work.
First I've heard of any third-party stuff for that machine as well.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
5:48 p.m.
[PX8, etc ROM carriers]
It's on Bitsavers (http://www.bitsavers.org/, but use one of the listed
mirror sites if you can). Go to the document archive, it's in the 'epson'
directory. Warning: It's big!
I don't know the origins. It was in the machine when I bought it at a
radio rally (hamfest) about 15 years ago. From what I rmember, the seller
had a pile of them, I think all the same spec.
In my PX4 are 2 EPROMs. One is the standard utilities ROM (PIP, STAT,
CONFIG, etc). The other seems to be the drivers for this RAMdisk. It is
in one of the carriers, but it's a hand-labelled ROM and looks to have
been crimped into the carrier by hand, not with one of the press tools.
Maybe a prototype or a low-volume product.
-tony
Interesting tidbit that they were used in those other
machines, I didn't know
that.
About 20 years ago, back when Maplin (UK Electronic shop) actually sold
enough components to design something with, and when ZX81s were still in
use, I designed an interface for the school's 81 (8 bit ADC, digital I/O
lines). I used some connectors that Maplin called 'Multicon', but which
were actually Molex 0.062" things.
Anyway, Maplin were out of stock, and didn't know when they'd get any
more. I actually called Molex to ask if there were any other distributors
for said connectors, and they gave me some names and sent me their
catalog. I am sure those carriers (and the sockets they fit into) were in
there. In fact I think I asked many of the distributors if they carried
them. None did from what I remember.
I wonder if they were almost a standard at one time.
2) Is the PX4 technical manual on the net
anywhere (I've found the PX8
one already).
Do you have a link handy? The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout
of the cartridge
connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there which doesn't
seem to work.
First I've heard of any third-party stuff for that machine as well.
7:55 p.m.
On Friday 23 December 2005 05:48 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
It's on Bitsavers (http://www.bitsavers.org/, but use one of the listed
mirror sites if you can). Go to the document archive, it's in the 'epson'
directory. Warning: It's big!
Fetching the first chapter as I type this.
I don't know the origins. It was in the machine when I bought it at a
radio rally (hamfest) about 15 years ago. From what I rmember, the seller
had a pile of them, I think all the same spec.
In my PX4 are 2 EPROMs. One is the standard utilities ROM (PIP, STAT,
CONFIG, etc). The other seems to be the drivers for this RAMdisk. It is
in one of the carriers, but it's a hand-labelled ROM and looks to have
been crimped into the carrier by hand, not with one of the press tools.
Maybe a prototype or a low-volume product.
The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think there are three
altogether. There's a "wedge" on the machine, which I think has its own
battery besides the main one and I think there's also one other one inside
there someplace, it's been a *long* time since i peeked in there. I'd
collected a bit of info on those machines, but not nearly enough, and that
was before I had 'net access. I should probably do something with it one of
these days, get it going again. It was a fun little machine, and a nice
keyboard, that PX8...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
[PX8, etc ROM carriers]
Hmm. Maybe some NOS exists someplace...
Interesting tidbit that they were used in those
other machines, I didn't
know that.
About 20 years ago, back when Maplin (UK Electronic shop) actually sold
enough components to design something with, and when ZX81s were still in
use, I designed an interface for the school's 81 (8 bit ADC, digital I/O
lines). I used some connectors that Maplin called 'Multicon', but which
were actually Molex 0.062" things.
Anyway, Maplin were out of stock, and didn't know when they'd get any
more. I actually called Molex to ask if there were any other distributors
for said connectors, and they gave me some names and sent me their
catalog. I am sure those carriers (and the sockets they fit into) were in
there. In fact I think I asked many of the distributors if they carried
them. None did from what I remember.
I wonder if they were almost a standard at one time. 2) Is the PX4 technical manual on the net anywhere
(I've found the PX8
one already).
Do you have a link handy? The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout of
the cartridge
connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there which
doesn't seem to work.
First I've heard of any third-party stuff for that machine as well.
24 Dec
24 Dec
5:39 p.m.
In my PX4 are
2 EPROMs. One is the standard utilities ROM (PIP, STAT,
CONFIG, etc). The other seems to be the drivers for this RAMdisk. It is
in one of the carriers, but it's a hand-labelled ROM and looks to have
been crimped into the carrier by hand, not with one of the press tools.
Maybe a prototype or a low-volume product.
The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think there are three altogether. There's a "wedge" on the
machine, which I think has its own
The wedge is normally extra RAM which appears as a RAMdisk. On the PX8,
there was also a modem (300 buard), or a combined modem/RAMdisk unit. On
the PX4, I think the modem was a cartridge.
battery besides the main one and I think there's
also one other one inside
there someplace, it's been a *long* time since i peeked in there. I'd
The RAMdisk units do contain their own battery.
The machine itself contains 2 batteries. In the PX8, there's the main
battery pack (4 sub-C NiCds) and a separate 4.8V backup NiCd soldered to
the PCB. In the PX4, there's the main battery (either a back of 4 AA
NiCds connected to the 4 pin plug in the battery compartment, or 4 AA
primary sells fitted by rearranging the contact boards), and a separate
backup NiCd fitted inside the case and plugged into the PCB.
Considering I am not likely to use these machines every day, I find
recharageable battereis to be a pain. They are going to self-discharge in
storage and need charging before I can use it, they are going to fail
long before they should due to neglect. I've been running the PX4 on
alkaline AA primary cells anf the PX8 off my bench supply. Yes, I have to
do a hard reser every time and reset the configuration, but...
-tony
26 Dec
26 Dec
3:47 p.m.
On Saturday 24 December 2005 05:39 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
Are you talking about a PX4 or a PX8?
A PX8.
I wonder if that's the one that's giving me trouble?
In my PX4 are 2 EPROMs. One is the standard utilities
ROM (PIP, STAT,
CONFIG, etc). The other seems to be the drivers for this RAMdisk. It is
in one of the carriers, but it's a hand-labelled ROM and looks to have
been crimped into the carrier by hand, not with one of the press tools.
Maybe a prototype or a low-volume product.
The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think there are three > There's a "wedge" on the machine,
which I think has its own
The wedge is normally extra RAM which appears as a
RAMdisk. On the PX8,
there was also a modem (300 buard), or a combined modem/RAMdisk unit. On
the PX4, I think the modem was a cartridge.
Yes, there's that modem, and I forget what else. I'd grab it and have a
look but don't recall just where it is at the moment.
battery
besides the main one and I think there's also one other one
inside there someplace, it's been a *long* time since i peeked in there.
I'd
The RAMdisk units do contain their own battery.
The machine itself contains 2 batteries. In the PX8, there's the main
battery pack (4 sub-C NiCds) and a separate 4.8V backup NiCd soldered to
the PCB. Considering I am not likely to use these machines
every day, I find
recharageable battereis to be a pain. They are going to self-discharge in
storage and need charging before I can use it, they are going to fail
long before they should due to neglect. I've been running the PX4 on
alkaline AA primary cells anf the PX8 off my bench supply. Yes, I have to
do a hard reser every time and reset the configuration, but...
I've been trying to avoid that, but may give it a shot.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
5:01 p.m.
The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think
there are three
Are you talking about a PX4 or a PX8? Yes, there's that modem, and I forget what else.
I'd grab it and have a
look but don't recall just where it is at the moment.
FWIW, that techncial manual I mentioned includes schematics for some of
the add-ons. Note that the RAMdisks are rather complicated, they have
their own Z80 processor and a memory control gate array
(similar/identical to the one in the PX8 I think).
Digging in my junk box (again), I found the Epson accostic modem that was
sold for these machines. It's just a plain 300 baud unit with an RS232
interface, but it's nice to have the 'right' peripherals.
The machine
itself contains 2 batteries. In the PX8, there's the main
battery pack (4 sub-C NiCds) and a separate 4.8V backup NiCd soldered to
the PCB.
I wonder if that's the one that's giving me trouble? Considering I am not likely to use these machines
every day, I find
recharageable battereis to be a pain. They are going to self-discharge in
storage and need charging before I can use it, they are going to fail
long before they should due to neglect. I've been running the PX4 on
alkaline AA primary cells anf the PX8 off my bench supply. Yes, I have to
do a hard reser every time and reset the configuration, but...
I've been trying to avoid that, but may give it a shot.
11:20 p.m.
On Monday 26 December 2005 05:01 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
A PX8.
Actually, the ROMs in my PX8 have no labels at all. They have Epson part
numbers stamped on the package, but nothing to easily identify them as
the utilities and BASIC roms.
I don't think this one has BASIC in it. There are eproms, Portable WordStar,
and I forget what else (I'll know when I find it by looking at the labels :-)
You can turn it off with the little switch inside the main batter
compartment. The machine should run from the main battery (or a 5V PSU
connected in place of the main battey) if there are no otehr problems.
To the battery connector? Ok...
Do remember there are no regulators in the PX8 PSU. The power supply must
be close to 5V (4.8V is OK), not a random unregulated one. You may well
do a lot of damage with the latter.
Are you talking about going right into the battery input connector? Or to the
charger input on the rear of the machine? The "power supply" I use with it
is a wall wart, I don't recall what it's rated at, but it's labeled with
that dymo tape stuff as being for that machine, came with it when I got it.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
The roms in
mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think there are
three
Are you talking about a PX4 or a PX8? [PX8 wedge]
Their own z80? Hm. I did download that stuff, all of it, but haven't read
it yet. And a few other things besides. There's a pile of interesting stuff
on that site...
Yes, there's that modem, and I forget what
else. I'd grab it and have
a look but don't recall just where it is at the moment.
FWIW, that techncial manual I mentioned includes schematics for some of
the add-ons. Note that the RAMdisks are rather complicated, they have
their own Z80 processor and a memory control gate array
(similar/identical to the one in the PX8 I think). Digging in my junk box (again), I found the Epson
accostic modem that was
sold for these machines. It's just a plain 300 baud unit with an RS232
interface, but it's nice to have the 'right' peripherals.
I can't recall what other jacks there were on the back of that unit, just
that there were a bunch of them...
The machine itself contains 2 batteries. In the PX8,
there's the main
battery pack (4 sub-C NiCds) and a separate 4.8V backup NiCd soldered
to the PCB.
I wonder if that's the one that's giving me trouble? > > Considering I am not likely to use these
machines every day, I find
> > recharageable battereis to be a pain. They are going to self-discharge
> > in storage and need charging before I can use it, they are going to
> > fail long before they should due to neglect.
I suspect that may have some bearing on what's going on with it now.
I've been running the PX4 on alkaline AA primary
cells anf the PX8 off
my bench supply. Yes, I have to do a hard reser every time and reset the
configuration, but...
I've been trying to avoid that, but may give it a shot.
27 Dec
27 Dec
8:20 a.m.
On Monday 26 December 2005 05:01 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
Actually, the ROMs in my PX8 have no labels at all. They have Epson part
numbers stamped on the package, but nothing to easily identify them as
the utilities and BASIC roms.
I don't think this one has BASIC in it. There are eproms, Portable WordStar,
Probably not if you have wordstar. There are only 2 EPROM sockets, BASIC
fills an EPEOM, I think wordstar would as well.
The EPROM you really need is the utilities one. Without it, you don't
have PIP, and therefore no way to copy files.
> The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I
think there are
> three
Are you talking about a PX4 or a PX8?
A PX8. and I forget what else (I'll know when I find it
by looking at the labels :-)
Yes, the RAMdisk units contain a Z80, a litle EPROM/ROM, and communicate
with the main PX8 via a couple of I/O ports. The RAMdisk is really a
second dedicated computer.
[PX8 wedge]
Their own z80? Hm. I did download that stuff, all of it, but haven't read
Yes, there's that modem, and I forget what
else. I'd grab it and have
a look but don't recall just where it is at the moment.
FWIW, that techncial manual I mentioned includes schematics for some of
the add-ons. Note that the RAMdisks are rather complicated, they have
their own Z80 processor and a memory control gate array
(similar/identical to the one in the PX8 I think). it yet. And a few other things besides. There's
a pile of interesting stuff
on that site...
Digging in my junk box (again), I found the Epson
accostic modem that was
sold for these machines. It's just a plain 300 baud unit with an RS232
interface, but it's nice to have the 'right' peripherals.
I can't recall what other jacks there were on the back of that unit, just
that there were a bunch of them... From memory, a PX8 has the following connectors :
A coaxial power connector for the charger
An 8 pin mini-DIN 'serial' port for the disk drives. It can also be used
for a printer, but only at a cery limited selection of baud rates. It is,
at least, at RS232 levels. Only 5 pins are wired (ground, TxD, RxD,
handshake out, handshake in, the latter being on the pins used on the
RS232 poer for DTR and DSR).
An 8 pin mini-DIN 'RS232' port All pins usedm you get the normal
hardware handshake lines.
A 3.5mm stereo jack socket (like a 'walkman' headphone socket) 'BCD'
port. This is for a BarCoDe reader, the connections being ground, signal
and +5V power out from the PX8. From what I can see the signal goes both
to one channel of the ADC chip and to a pin on one of the gate arrays
which contains logic to measure the time between transitions of the
signal. Note there's no barcode software in the BIOS ROM
Another 3.5mm jack socket 'ADC In'. This is an analogue input to another
channel of the ADC chip, the other connecitons being ground and a
TTL-level trigger signal
A 3.5mm mono jack socket 'SP out' for an external loudspeaker.
A 50 pin header 'System Bus' which is essentially the unbuffered Z80 bus
lines.
You can turn
it off with the little switch inside the main batter
compartment. The machine should run from the main battery (or a 5V PSU
connected in place of the main battey) if there are no otehr problems.
To the battery connector? Ok... Do remember
there are no regulators in the PX8 PSU. The power supply must
be close to 5V (4.8V is OK), not a random unregulated one. You may well
do a lot of damage with the latter.
Are you talking about going right into the battery input connector? Or to the
charger input on the rear of the machine? The "power supply" I use with it
is a wall wart, I don't recall what it's rated at, but it's labeled with
that dymo tape stuff as being for that machine, came with it when I got it.
3:01 p.m.
On Tuesday 27 December 2005 08:20 am, Tony Duell wrote:
The wedge has a socket, too.
Connect a _reguylated 5V PSU_ (nothing else) to the battery connector
inside. I mentioned where to get the sockets in an earlier message, you
can get the polarity from the technical manual or by examining the NiCd
pack.
I *made* that pack, the one that came with it was shot. I also used to run a
retail battery store, and salvaged a whole bunch of similar connectors from
cordless phone batteries that folks brought in for replacement, and I'm sure
that one of those will work.
A regulated 5V supply should be no problem for me.
I don't
think this one has BASIC in it. There are eproms, Portable
WordStar,
Probably not if you have wordstar. There are only 2 EPROM sockets, BASIC
fills an EPEOM, I think wordstar would as well. The EPROM you really need is the utilities one.
Without it, you don't
have PIP, and therefore no way to copy files.
I think nsweep might be in there, though I'm not sure, it's been too long.
From memory, a PX8 has the following connectors :
A coaxial power connector for the charger
An 8 pin mini-DIN 'serial' port for the disk drives. It can also be used
for a printer, but only at a cery limited selection of baud rates. It is,
at least, at RS232 levels. Only 5 pins are wired (ground, TxD, RxD,
handshake out, handshake in, the latter being on the pins used on the
RS232 poer for DTR and DSR).
An 8 pin mini-DIN 'RS232' port All pins usedm you get the normal
hardware handshake lines.
A 3.5mm stereo jack socket (like a 'walkman' headphone socket) 'BCD'
port. This is for a BarCoDe reader, the connections being ground, signal
and +5V power out from the PX8. From what I can see the signal goes both
to one channel of the ADC chip and to a pin on one of the gate arrays
which contains logic to measure the time between transitions of the
signal. Note there's no barcode software in the BIOS ROM
Sounds about right.
Another 3.5mm jack socket 'ADC In'. This is an
analogue input to another
channel of the ADC chip, the other connecitons being ground and a
TTL-level trigger signal
It'd be nifty to see if I can find some use for them, once I get it working.
A 3.5mm mono jack socket 'SP out' for an
external loudspeaker.
A 50 pin header 'System Bus' which is essentially the unbuffered Z80 bus
lines.
I think that's what the wedge connects to.
You can turn it off with the little switch inside the
main batter
compartment. The machine should run from the main battery (or a 5V PSU
connected in place of the main battey) if there are no otehr problems.
To the battery connector? Ok... I will emphasise this again because it's
important. There is no regulator
circuit between the battery and the standby supply line (maintains RAM,
real time clock, etc when the machine is turned off) or, indeed the main
logic supply line. Do not connect an unregulated supply here, you will
wipe out chips throughoug the machine.
The wall-wart is an unregulated thing. Claimed to be 6V 600mA on the
label (and in the manual), in reality it's nearer 12V off-load. This
charges the main battery, and the machine depends on the fact that the
the battery will clamp the voltage to 4.8V or so to limit the voltage on
the logic supply lines. Do not, I repeat, use that PSU in place of the
battery, do not, in fact, plug it in without as good battery in place
(there is a proteciton zener diode, but I don't trust it!)>
Hm.
Do
remember there are no regulators in the PX8 PSU. The power supply
must be close to 5V (4.8V is OK), not a random unregulated one. You may
well do a lot of damage with the latter.
Are you talking about going right into the battery input connector? Or
to the charger input on the rear of the machine? The "power supply" I
use with it is a wall wart, I don't recall what it's rated at, but it's
labeled with that dymo tape stuff as being for that machine, came with
it when I got it. I run mine from a regulated electornic workbench
supply connected in
place of the battery (and set between 4.8V and 5V). I would think the 5V
supply from another computer would be OK (e.g. an old PC power supply),
but I've not tried it, so don't blame me if you kill all the ICs in the
PX8...
I have enough 7805s and similar to deal with that, for sure.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
5:01 p.m.
On Tuesday 27 December 2005 08:20 am, Tony Duell wrote:
The wedge has a socket, too.
I have no idea how (if at all) that appears to CP/M. There is, of course,
an EPROM in the wedge which contains the firmware for the Z80 that
controls the RAMdisk stuff. I asusme you mean a second socket for a user
EPROM.
I
don't think this one has BASIC in it. There are eproms, Portable
WordStar,
Probably not if you have wordstar. There are only 2 EPROM sockets, BASIC
fills an EPEOM, I think wordstar would as well. Another 3.5mm
jack socket 'ADC In'. This is an analogue input to another
channel of the ADC chip, the other connecitons being ground and a
TTL-level trigger signal
It'd be nifty to see if I can find some use for them, once I get it working. A 3.5mm mono jack socket 'SP out' for an
external loudspeaker.
A 50 pin header 'System Bus' which is essentially the unbuffered Z80 bus
lines.
I think that's what the wedge connects to. I *made* that pack, the one that came with it was
shot. I also used to run a
OK, mine came with no battery at all...
retail battery store, and salvaged a whole bunch of
similar connectors from
cordless phone batteries that folks brought in for replacement, and I'm sure
that one of those will work.
As I said, if not, I have a source of replacements. I think they ship
worldwide, but the cost may be fairly high. Incidentally, does anyone
know a (UK, preferably) source of the thin, large heat-shrink sleeving
used round battery packs? Maplin used to sell it, but no more.
Youy have to realise that I have no idea who I am talking to on this
list, I have no idea what your technical skill level is. I'd rather post
some elementary information and risk insulting you than not mention it
and then find I've ruined some rare machine (or worse still have that
machine in as a repair job).
I run mine
from a regulated electornic workbench supply connected in
place of the battery (and set between 4.8V and 5V). I would think the 5V
supply from another computer would be OK (e.g. an old PC power supply),
but I've not tried it, so don't blame me if you kill all the ICs in the
PX8...
I have enough 7805s and similar to deal with that, for sure.
23 Dec
23 Dec
2:23 p.m.
On Thursday 22 December 2005 03:24 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote:
You got my attention with that one! Assuming that I can get this thing
working again, that is...
<...>
I am currently
working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so
I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will mention
that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you are
interested in the content. If you can get the exact CPU type, I may have a
disassembler that will
let you peek into the startup code a little better.
For which chips?
<...>
Lastly, one little tool I have in my "homebuilt
gadgets" box is a 28 pin
"plug" attached to a little board with a ROM socket ,a bit of logic and
a really dumb UART (the kind you setup in hardware).
This sounds interesting. Which UART would that be? I'm vaguely remembering
something of the sort, but can't remember the part number, and am pretty
sure I don't have any, though I have lots of the other sort in various
families...
What the logic does is map one 256 byte block to read
the status (RX ready,
TX ready) and Data registers (you don't need 256 bytes for this but it
was easy), and one 256 byte block to write the data register (The
low byte of the address is the data you write). To make it work in
either "high vector" or "low vector" systems, it's worth putting
on
jumper to move the block to either end.
Hm. I'm not sure I grasp this completely, but it sounds interesting.
I've written a number of "Hardware Debug
Monitors" which work on
this board, and don't use any RAM which enable me to to basic
Display/Write memory operations - With this tool, as long as the ROM
runs, you can "get inside" the BUS - Btw, I also include "loop read"
and "loop write" function - terminated by RESET - very handy when
debugging at this level.
Since I have a whole pile of assorted 8-bit parts a ROM emulator was something
I was thinking about. This stuff you describe sounds as if it might also be
useful, too.
Got more info up anyplace?
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
11:24 a.m.
I don't
hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will mention
that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you are
interested in the content.
You got my attention with that one! Assuming that I can get this thing
working again, that is... If you can get
the exact CPU type, I may have a disassembler that will
let you peek into the startup code a little better.
For which chips? Lastly, one
little tool I have in my "homebuilt gadgets" box is a 28 pin
"plug" attached to a little board with a ROM socket ,a bit of logic and
a really dumb UART (the kind you setup in hardware).
This sounds interesting. Which UART would that be? I'm vaguely remembering
something of the sort, but can't remember the part number, and am pretty
sure I don't have any, though I have lots of the other sort in various
families... What the logic
does is map one 256 byte block to read the status (RX ready,
TX ready) and Data registers (you don't need 256 bytes for this but it
was easy), and one 256 byte block to write the data register (The
low byte of the address is the data you write). To make it work in
either "high vector" or "low vector" systems, it's worth putting
on
jumper to move the block to either end.
Hm. I'm not sure I grasp this completely, but it sounds interesting. I've
written a number of "Hardware Debug Monitors" which work on
this board, and don't use any RAM which enable me to to basic
Display/Write memory operations - With this tool, as long as the ROM
runs, you can "get inside" the BUS - Btw, I also include "loop read"
and "loop write" function - terminated by RESET - very handy when
debugging at this level.
Since I have a whole pile of assorted 8-bit parts a ROM emulator was something
I was thinking about. This stuff you describe sounds as if it might also be
useful, too.
Got more info up anyplace?
3:39 p.m.
On Friday 23 December 2005 11:24 am, Dave Dunfield wrote:
I'll dig em out over the holiday and see if I can read them.
No rush, I still need to get that thing working...
Lots! ("My day job is producing development tools for a large number of
embedded processors).
Hmm.
I'd have to look at it to be certain (haven't had to write anything for it
in a long time), but I'm pretty certain I used a 6402 - but you could use
any of the "hardare programmable" uarts (AY-5-1013, COM2502 etc.) - You
don't NEED to use a "hardware programmable" uart, but doing so means that
the only thing you need to write is the data register. And with this setup,
"writes" are best kept to a minimum :-)
Yeah, and it sure simplifies things when you don't need all that extra
"stuff" that the programmable ones give you. I should get a hold of a couple
of those chpis one of these days. Is that 6402 a single-supply part? I
guess I need to fetch a few more datasheets...
The idea is to have a "monitor" that you can plug into the EPROM socket
of just about any machine, and talk to it (assuming that you write code for
that particular CPU), and also to assume that the rest of the hardware is
unknown, and possibly not working.
It's possible to write a simple montor that does not use RAM, however you
still need a way to communicate with the debug terminal - since an EPROM
socket does not have a -WR line, you can't write in the "normal" sense -
also, you don't want to risk contention with something else on the bus.
So what I did was to generate selects for two 256 byte pages in the
ROM area - reading the top 1/2 of the first page gets me two bits
which are the RXready and TXready signals from the UART. Reading
the bottom 1/2 of that page gets me the receive data register. Reading
the second 256 byte page actually writes the bottom byte of the
address to the UART transmit data register - this allows me to read/write
to a terminal without having to do anything other than read the EPROM
space. This lets me get "inside the bus" and be able to do basic reads
and writes on most any system.
I like it. :-)
No more info about my "ROM socket monitor", as I built it a long time ago,
and don't even have schematics (at least I don't know where they would be)
- but it is pretty simple and should not take much to replicate.
I think I've got a better idea of what you're talking about now...
I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific
help, however I will
mention that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you
are interested in the content.
You got my attention with that one! Assuming that I can get this thing
working again, that is... If you can get the exact CPU type, I may have a
disassembler that will
let you peek into the startup code a little better.
For which chips? Lastly, one little tool I have in my "homebuilt
gadgets" box is a 28
pin "plug" attached to a little board with a ROM socket ,a bit of logic
and a really dumb UART (the kind you setup in hardware).
This sounds interesting. Which UART would that be? I'm vaguely
remembering something of the sort, but can't remember the part number,
and am pretty sure I don't have any, though I have lots of the other
sort in various families... What the logic does is map one 256 byte block to read
the status (RX
ready, TX ready) and Data registers (you don't need 256 bytes for this
but it was easy), and one 256 byte block to write the data register
(The low byte of the address is the data you write). To make it work in
either "high vector" or "low vector" systems, it's worth putting
on
jumper to move the block to either end.
Hm. I'm not sure I grasp this completely, but it sounds interesting. I've written a number of "Hardware Debug
Monitors" which work on
this board, and don't use any RAM which enable me to to basic
Display/Write memory operations - With this tool, as long as the ROM
runs, you can "get inside" the BUS - Btw, I also include "loop read"
and "loop write" function - terminated by RESET - very handy when
debugging at this level.
Since I have a whole pile of assorted 8-bit parts a ROM emulator was
something I was thinking about. This stuff you describe sounds as if it
might also be useful, too.
Got more info up anyplace? As far as tools, assemblers, disassemblers, compilers,
monitors etc. go -
these are described and have downloadable demos on my comercial site
(www.dunfield.com) - Yes, I generally expect people to pay if they want a
complete package, however I often give individual component tools to people
who are doing a worthy cause (like fixing a classic computer) and have a
specific need.
I think I need to get some hardware together first, and maybe come up with
some kind of a simple eprom emulator...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
1:21 p.m.
I'd have
to look at it to be certain (haven't had to write anything for it
in a long time), but I'm pretty certain I used a 6402 - but you could use
any of the "hardare programmable" uarts (AY-5-1013, COM2502 etc.) - You
don't NEED to use a "hardware programmable" uart, but doing so means that
the only thing you need to write is the data register. And with this setup,
"writes" are best kept to a minimum :-)
Yeah, and it sure simplifies things when you don't need all that extra
"stuff" that the programmable ones give you. I should get a hold of a couple
of those chpis one of these days. Is that 6402 a single-supply part? I
guess I need to fetch a few more datasheets...
5:40 p.m.
On Thursday 22 December 2005 03:24 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote:
You got my attention with that one! Assuming that I can get this thing
working again, that is...
Again, I think one of the web sites I found wit google (either searching
for Epson PX8 or Epson PF10 had some ROM images. Things like Wordstar. I
haven't looked at them yet (to be honst, I have little use for 'business'
applications on this machine).
-tony
I am
currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so
I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will mention
that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you are
interested in the content.
7:56 p.m.
On Friday 23 December 2005 05:40 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
One of the applications on mine is "Portable Wordstar", which I use for
smallish text files, mostly.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
On Thursday 22
December 2005 03:24 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote:
You got my attention with that one! Assuming that I can get this thing
working again, that is...
Again, I think one of the web sites I found wit google (either searching
for Epson PX8 or Epson PF10 had some ROM images. Things like Wordstar. I
haven't looked at them yet (to be honst, I have little use for 'business'
applications on this machine). I am
currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on
E-bay, so
I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will
mention that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you
are interested in the content. 
22 Dec
22 Dec
6:23 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
<snippage>
I suspect the microocontroller or the RAM. Alas both
are SMD (and
therefore a pain to remove), I have spares for neither and no way to get
them.
Any comments, suggestions, or things to check?
Blow a test program into ROM, and let it walk the memory?
Try and disassemble the ROM, or run it on an emulator?
Gordon.
7:06 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
<snippage>
Yeah, but those are both more work than desoldering the RAM and testing
it 'by hand'....
I was wondering if there was a 'gotcha' of the form 'if port <foo> is
stuck low, then the thing will go crazy waiting for it to go high'.
Admittedly all the inputs I've checked look to be in the right state.
-tony
I suspect the microocontroller or the RAM. Alas
both are SMD (and
therefore a pain to remove), I have spares for neither and no way to get
them.
Any comments, suggestions, or things to check?
Blow a test program into ROM, and let it walk the memory?
Try and disassemble the ROM, or run it on an emulator?
23 Dec
23 Dec
3:46 a.m.
> Blow a test program into ROM, and let it walk the
memory?
Yeah, but those are both more work than desoldering the RAM and testing
it 'by hand'....
IIRC the NOP instruction is 0x01 - you could knock up something to pull
the bus low apart from D0 when it's /ROMCS is asserted. Some diodes and
an inverter, perhaps.
Then the thing would just madly run NOPS all the time until it fell off
the end of ROM. If it tried to read vectors from ROM it would just jump
to 0x0101.
You should be able to see the address lines doing their thing with a scope
then, albeit briefly.
Gordon.
12:40 p.m.
On Thursday 22 December 2005 05:55 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I
bought this on E-bay, so
the history is essentially unknown, but I was told it was 'untested'
which I took to mean non-working.
Speaking of which, I have one of those I'd forgotten to include in my list I
posted a while back. It used to work, doesn't work any more -- when I
attempt to turn it on I get a low battery message, even if it's been plugged
in to charge for a long time. Know where I might find some tech info on the
innards of the thing?
<...>
With it, I got a PF10 floppy drive. This is a single
3.5" unit, with a
38400 baud serial interdace back to the PX8.
I'd love to find a drive for one of those. :-)
I had to make up my own cable, but I have checked and
double-checked it, and
anyway it works fine to link a PX8 to a PX4 via the RS232 interfaces
(essentially the same pinout as the 'high speed' serial interface to the
disk drive). In fact what I did was make up a cable from the 8 pin nini-DIN
plug to fit the PX8 to a DB25 plug,, wired as a DTE and a second cable with
a DB25 socket to a 8 pin mini-DIN, wired to do the right swaps and jumpers.
I got a couple of connectors a while back, but my eyesight isn't what it used
to be, so I never did make up any cables. Do you have specific cable wiring
info, assuming I can get this thing working?
<...>
Assuming it's like a 68xx processor, with reset
and interrupt vectors at the
top of memory, that looks sane too.
I have a databook around here someplace that details those chips, there's a
lot of differences for very small differences in the part number, but yeah,
they're basically a variant of the 6800-series parts. And CMOS.
<...>
(Yes, I know about PC-based emulators for these
drives, but I'd like to
get the real unit working too).
First I've heard of those. If I can get mine working, that would be a nice
way to store some data. What pc-based platform do they work under?
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
2:09 p.m.
On Thursday 22 December 2005 05:55 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
There is a scanned technical manual (.pdf) on various web sites, I think
it is on bitsavers, for example. Be warned that while it does contain
schemaitcs, these are very hard to read (at least the complete one at the
back) -- a combination of IMHO too low a reslution at one point in the
process (no idea if it was the original manual or the scanner) and a very
confusing layout.
There are part diagrams to explain the various sections, and these are a
lot easier to follow. THe PSU is not at all simple (and depends on the
NiCd to act as a shut regulator on the main logic supply line). Heck,
there's even a 4-bit microcontroller and a 6 bit ADC in the middle of it
all.
But I can try to talk you through it if you want me to.
I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I
bought this on E-bay, so
the history is essentially unknown, but I was told it was 'untested'
which I took to mean non-working.
Speaking of which, I have one of those I'd forgotten to include in my list I
posted a while back. It used to work, doesn't work any more -- when I
attempt to turn it on I get a low battery message, even if it's been plugged
in to charge for a long time. Know where I might find some tech info on the
innards of the thing?
<...>
It's not the same, but there are various drive emulators for PCs. The
'serial' port on the PX8 is at RS232 levels, and the disk drive just uses
the TxD and RxD pins (it's a subset of the pinout of the RS232 port
alongside it, you can use the same cables, essentially). It runs at 38400
baud.
I've downloaded a disk emulator for linux. The makefile and shell scripts
need work (at least to run on my machine), but the program compiled OK by
hand and does work. I think there's something for MS-DOS too.
With it, I got a PF10 floppy drive. This is a
single 3.5" unit, with a
38400 baud serial interdace back to the PX8.
I'd love to find a drive for one of those. :-) I had to make up my own cable, but I have checked
and double-checked it, and
anyway it works fine to link a PX8 to a PX4 via the RS232 interfaces
(essentially the same pinout as the 'high speed' serial interface to the
disk drive). In fact what I did was make up a cable from the 8 pin nini-DIN
plug to fit the PX8 to a DB25 plug,, wired as a DTE and a second cable with
a DB25 socket to a 8 pin mini-DIN, wired to do the right swaps and jumpers.
I got a couple of connectors a while back, but my eyesight isn't what it used
to be, so I never did make up any cables. Do you have specific cable wiring
info, assuming I can get this thing working? First I've heard of those. If I can get mine
working, that would be a nice
way to store some data. What pc-based platform do they work under?
Well, certianly an old version of linux,, because that what I use. I
think I saw reference to an MS-DOS one. A google search for Epson PX8
and/or Epson PF10 should find them.
-tony
2:36 p.m.
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:09:33 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote:
>
> On Thursday 22 December 2005 05:55 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
> > I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so
> > the history is essentially unknown, but I was told it was 'untested'
> > which I took to mean non-working.
>
some manuals are
here:
http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/info.html
http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/manuals/info.htm
l
http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/in
fo.html
dcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/px4/info.ht
ml
http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/px-8/tf20/info.h
tml
Mit freundlichen Gruessen
Fritz Chwolka
3 p.m.
On Friday 23 December 2005 02:09 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
Oh joy...
Just being able to get info into and out of that machine would be nice.
I did look once a while back, but it's been a while and there's probably more
stuff out there now than there was. I guess I'll have another look...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
On Thursday 22
December 2005 05:55 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
There is a scanned technical manual (.pdf) on various web sites, I think
it is on bitsavers, for example. Be warned that while it does contain
schemaitcs, these are very hard to read (at least the complete one at the
back) -- a combination of IMHO too low a reslution at one point in the
process (no idea if it was the original manual or the scanner) and a very
confusing layout. I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I
bought this on E-bay,
so the history is essentially unknown, but I was told it was 'untested'
which I took to mean non-working.
Speaking of which, I have one of those I'd forgotten to include in my
list I posted a while back. It used to work, doesn't work any more --
when I attempt to turn it on I get a low battery message, even if it's
been plugged in to charge for a long time. Know where I might find some
tech info on the innards of the thing? There are part diagrams to explain the various
sections, and these are a
lot easier to follow. THe PSU is not at all simple (and depends on the
NiCd to act as a shut regulator on the main logic supply line). Heck,
there's even a 4-bit microcontroller and a 6 bit ADC in the middle of it
all.
But I can try to talk you through it if you want me to.
Let me see what I can get a hold of.
<...>
It's not the same, but there are various drive emulators for PCs. The
'serial' port on the PX8 is at RS232 levels, and the disk drive just uses
the TxD and RxD pins (it's a subset of the pinout of the RS232 port
alongside it, you can use the same cables, essentially). It runs at 38400
baud. With it, I got a PF10 floppy drive. This is a
single 3.5" unit, with a
38400 baud serial interdace back to the PX8.
I'd love to find a drive for one of those. :-) I've downloaded a disk emulator for linux.
Pretty much what I run here -- which distro do you use?
The makefile and shell scripts need work (at least to
run on my machine),
Always. :-)
but the program compiled OK by hand and does work. I
think there's something
for MS-DOS too.
I regard mini-DIN plugs as one of the offspring of Satan :-).
:-D
I had to
make up my own cable, but I have checked and double-checked
it, and anyway it works fine to link a PX8 to a PX4 via the RS232
interfaces (essentially the same pinout as the 'high speed' serial
interface to the disk drive). In fact what I did was make up a cable
from the 8 pin nini-DIN plug to fit the PX8 to a DB25 plug,, wired as a
DTE and a second cable with a DB25 socket to a 8 pin mini-DIN, wired to
do the right swaps and jumpers.
I got a couple of connectors a while back, but my eyesight isn't what it
used to be, so I never did make up any cables. Do you have specific
cable wiring info, assuming I can get this thing working? I really hate wiring them, and the type you can wire
(as opposed to moulded
ones) are often too large tor fit through the hole in the case to mate with
the socket.
I do believe these will fit, and better yet, they appear to be Switchcraft.
I still don't want to have to wire them, though.
What I did was buy 3 cables from RS components which
had an 8 pin
mini-DIN plug moulded on one end and bare wires at the other.
I might have something around here I can chop...
I wired 2 of them to DB25 plugs, so that you got a DTE
pinout on said plug.
And the last one I wired to a DB25 socket with the apporpiate crosses and
interconnections so that when I pluged that one one of the first type of
cable, I got a crossover mini-DIN to mini-DIN cable which will like 2
PX8s (or PX4s), or link a machine to the PF10.
I can look up the wiring colours used in those RS cables if you like, they
are in the catalogue/on the web site, but I buzzed them out anyway just
to be sure.
Just the pin-to-pin connections would be of great help.
[Note for US readers. RS is not Radio Shack. It's
a large UK distributer
of electronic components, tools, materials, etc. Look at
http://www.rswww.com/]
I've heard that before.
First I've
heard of those. If I can get mine working, that would be a
nice way to store some data. What pc-based platform do they work under?
Well, certianly an old version of linux,, because that what I use. I
think I saw reference to an MS-DOS one. A google search for Epson PX8
and/or Epson PF10 should find them.
6:10 p.m.
There are part
diagrams to explain the various sections, and these are a
lot easier to follow. THe PSU is not at all simple (and depends on the
NiCd to act as a shut regulator on the main logic supply line). Heck,
there's even a 4-bit microcontroller and a 6 bit ADC in the middle of it
all.
But I can try to talk you through it if you want me to.
Let me see what I can get a hold of. It's not
the same, but there are various drive emulators for PCs. The
'serial' port on the PX8 is at RS232 levels, and the disk drive just uses
the TxD and RxD pins (it's a subset of the pinout of the RS232 port
alongside it, you can use the same cables, essentially). It runs at 38400
baud.
Just being able to get info into and out of that machine would be nice. I've downloaded a disk emulator for linux.
Pretty much what I run here -- which distro do you use? I had to make
up my own cable, but I have checked and double-checked
it, and anyway it works fine to link a PX8 to a PX4 via the RS232
interfaces (essentially the same pinout as the 'high speed' serial
interface to the disk drive). In fact what I did was make up a cable
from the 8 pin nini-DIN plug to fit the PX8 to a DB25 plug,, wired as a
DTE and a second cable with a DB25 socket to a 8 pin mini-DIN, wired to
do the right swaps and jumpers.
I got a couple of connectors a while back, but my eyesight isn't what it
used to be, so I never did make up any cables. Do you have specific
cable wiring info, assuming I can get this thing working? I really hate wiring them, and the type you can
wire (as opposed to moulded
ones) are often too large tor fit through the hole in the case to mate with
the socket.
I do believe these will fit, and better yet, they appear to be Switchcraft.
I still don't want to have to wire them, though.
> What I did was buy 3 cables from RS components which had an 8 pin
> mini-DIN plug moulded on one end and bare wires at the other.
I might have something around here I can chop...
The PX8 serial port conenctions are pretty sane, actually, and sort-of
follow the RS232 order. I think the pinout is in the user manual (it's
certainly in the the technical manual), as are diagrams for the standard
cables (again, those are certainly in the technical manual.
Anyway, here are the pins (and the colours of that RS cable I mentioned)
PX8 pin Signal Colour RS232 Pin
1 Signal Ground Black 7
2 TxD White 2
3 RxD Red 3
4 RTS Yellow 4
5 CTS Purple 5
6 DSR Blue 6
7 DTR Green 20
8 CD Brown 8
The pin numbers are actually the same as on the HX20, which used a
full-sized 8 pin DIN plug. It made a lot of sense on that machine,
because 3 pin, 5 pin (type A) and 7 pin DIN plugs will fit the 8 pin
socket. A 3 pin plug gave yopu Gnd, TxD, RxD, a 5 pin plug added RTS and
CTS, a 7 pin plug added DSR and DTR, and finally the 8 pin plug added CD.
Every possbile connector gave a useful subset of the signals.
I wired 2 of them to DB25 plugs, so that you got
a DTE pinout on said plug.
And the last one I wired to a DB25 socket with the apporpiate crosses and
interconnections so that when I pluged that one one of the first type of
cable, I got a crossover mini-DIN to mini-DIN cable which will like 2
PX8s (or PX4s), or link a machine to the PF10.
I can look up the wiring colours used in those RS cables if you like, they
are in the catalogue/on the web site, but I buzzed them out anyway just
to be sure.
Just the pin-to-pin connections would be of great help. [Note for US
readers. RS is not Radio Shack. It's a large UK distributer
of electronic components, tools, materials, etc. Look at
http://www.rswww.com/]
I've heard that before.
8:08 p.m.
On Friday 23 December 2005 06:10 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
Looking in my archives, I show (in more or less alphabetical order) the
following:
EPOXLINK.LZH Transfer program specific to Osborne Executive (I have one)
EPSLINK.LZH Transfer program for cp/m machine - same UI as FILINK
(That one is assembly source)
FILINK.LZH unix equivalent to EPSLINK
PROMFORM.LZH program & doc file for burning eproms
...and a few others. That "FILINK.LZH" sound like the one you're looking
for?
FWIW, the RS cables are 463-518
Ok, downloading still...
If you want to annoy them, call them 'Radiospares'. They started out
with that name many years ago, but changed their name in 1972 (I think)
to RS components because they wanted to get away from the iamge of only
supplying parts to fix radios. But every old-time engineer and scientist
in the UK will call them 'Radiospares'.
Heh.
I don't think it likely that I'll be dealing with them.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
Just being
able to get info into and out of that machine would be nice.
Talking of that, is the protocol used by FLINK documented anywhere?
(FLINK is a program in the utilities ROM of both the PX4 and PX8 that
seems to do file transfer over the RS232 port). I've heard rumours for a
version in C for unix machines, but can't seem to find it anywhere. Anyway, the disk emulaotr program I found was called
vfloppy13.tgz. The
archive is vig (about 300K) becuase it includes 3 disk images that you
might need. The linux part of the system is GPLed (no flames, OK...)
Very old Debian.
Slackware here.
<...>
I've
downloaded a disk emulator for linux.
Pretty much what I run here -- which distro do you use? I regard mini-DIN plugs as one of the offspring of
Satan :-).
:-D
I really hate wiring them, and the type you can
wire (as opposed to
moulded ones) are often too large tor fit through the hole in the case
to mate with the socket.
I do believe these will fit, and better yet, they appear to be
Switchcraft. I still don't want to have to wire them, though.
> What I did was buy 3 cables from RS components which had an 8 pin
> mini-DIN plug moulded on one end and bare wires at the other. I might have something around here I can chop...
The PX8 serial port conenctions are pretty sane, actually, and sort-of
follow the RS232 order. I think the pinout is in the user manual (it's
certainly in the the technical manual), as are diagrams for the standard
cables (again, those are certainly in the technical manual. I wired 2 of them to DB25 plugs, so that you got
a DTE pinout on said
plug. And the last one I wired to a DB25 socket with the apporpiate
crosses and interconnections so that when I pluged that one one of the
first type of cable, I got a crossover mini-DIN to mini-DIN cable
which will like 2 PX8s (or PX4s), or link a machine to the PF10.
I can look up the wiring colours used in those RS cables if you like,
they are in the catalogue/on the web site, but I buzzed them out anyway
just to be sure.
Just the pin-to-pin connections would be of great help. Anyway, here are the pins (and the colours of that RS
cable I mentioned)
PX8 pin Signal Colour RS232 Pin
1 Signal Ground Black 7
2 TxD White 2
3 RxD Red 3
4 RTS Yellow 4
5 CTS Purple 5
6 DSR Blue 6
7 DTR Green 20
8 CD Brown 8
The pin numbers are actually the same as on the HX20, which used a
full-sized 8 pin DIN plug. It made a lot of sense on that machine,
because 3 pin, 5 pin (type A) and 7 pin DIN plugs will fit the 8 pin
socket.
Yes, I often used a 5-pin for video when working on c64s, which could have
either that 5-pin or an 8-pin socket.
A 3 pin plug gave yopu Gnd, TxD, RxD, a 5 pin plug
added RTS and
CTS, a 7 pin plug added DSR and DTR, and finally the 8 pin plug added CD.
Every possbile connector gave a useful subset of the signals.
I like that kind of thinking!
[Note for US readers. RS is not Radio Shack. It's
a large UK
distributer of electronic components, tools, materials, etc. Look at
http://www.rswww.com/]
I've heard that before.
24 Dec
24 Dec
5:43 p.m.
Looking in my archives, I show (in more or less
alphabetical order) the
following:
EPOXLINK.LZH Transfer program specific to Osborne Executive (I have one)
EPSLINK.LZH Transfer program for cp/m machine - same UI as FILINK
(That one is assembly source)
FILINK.LZH unix equivalent to EPSLINK
PROMFORM.LZH program & doc file for burning eproms
...and a few others. That "FILINK.LZH" sound like the one you're looking
for?
Two questions :
1) How to I get to your archives (URL?)
2) How do I uncompress a .LZH file? I was never a big CP/M user back when
it was current, my Z80 machines were TRS-80s running LDOS. When I got the
Model 4, I got CP/M with it, but I much prefered LS-DOS (or TRS-DOS 6,
which is essentially the same thing). Yes, there's more software for
CP/M, but if yoy didn't want that software, LS-DOS was a much nicer OS
IMHO.
-tony
8:46 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
2) How do I uncompress a .LZH file? I was never a big
CP/M user back when
LHA: http://members.aol.com/DuckGroup/lha_comp.html
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
25 Dec
25 Dec
2:08 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Thanks... Poking arouund my system, I found I'd already installed this or
something like it. I suspect i did so <mumble> years ago to uncompress
such a file and promptly forgot about it.
-tony
2) How do I uncompress a .LZH file? I was never a
big CP/M user back when
LHA: http://members.aol.com/DuckGroup/lha_comp.html
4:42 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Thanks... Poking arouund my system, I found I'd already installed this or
something like it. I suspect i did so <mumble> years ago to uncompress
such a file and promptly forgot about it.
That's good, because I just found out all the simtel links in the URL I
referred you to were bad, thanks to Digital River totally f**king up the
concept of what an FTP archive is supposed to be.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
2) How do I uncompress a .LZH file? I was never a big
CP/M user back when
LHA: http://members.aol.com/DuckGroup/lha_comp.html
26 Dec
26 Dec
3:52 p.m.
On Saturday 24 December 2005 05:43 pm, Tony Duell wrote:
They're not currently online. This stuff was, up until a couple of months
back, on a BBS that I ran here, but my front end mailer program developed
some sort of a glitch where it would hang up on incoming calls within 7-8
seconds, and I didn't get into figuring out why that was, instead thinking
I would port things over to linux, only I haven't gotten through compiling
all of that yet. I can email you stuff that's of interest.
Looking in my
archives, I show (in more or less alphabetical order) the
following:
EPOXLINK.LZH Transfer program specific to Osborne Executive (I have
one) EPSLINK.LZH Transfer program for cp/m machine - same UI as
FILINK (That one is assembly source)
FILINK.LZH unix equivalent to EPSLINK
PROMFORM.LZH program & doc file for burning eproms
...and a few others. That "FILINK.LZH" sound like the one you're looking
for?
Two questions :
1) How to I get to your archives (URL?) 2) How do I uncompress a .LZH file? I was never a big
CP/M user back when
it was current, my Z80 machines were TRS-80s running LDOS. When I got the
Model 4, I got CP/M with it, but I much prefered LS-DOS (or TRS-DOS 6,
which is essentially the same thing). Yes, there's more software for
CP/M, but if yoy didn't want that software, LS-DOS was a much nicer OS
IMHO.
That's something I did under dos. The early versions of LZH were usable under
CP/M and gave slightly better compression than "Squeezing" or
"Crunching"
them did, pkzip from version 2 onwards compressed better yet but wasn't able
to be extracted under CP/M because of memory limitations, so I settled on
LZH files instead. I suppose I could probably fire up the dos box and
extract what you wanted out of the archives, and then somehow get it over to
this machine where I'd email it out. Or find me an LZH-extractor that runs
under linux, which would probably be easier...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
6854
days inactive
6859
days old
35 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
dave04a＠dunfield.com -
fritz_chwolka＠t-online.de -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
rtellason＠blazenet.net -
trixter＠oldskool.org