12 Nov
2010
12 Nov
'10
1:07 p.m.
Hi everyone,
I'm thinking about making punched cards. I could need some information about the
material used for
them. Precise information about tolerances, specifications, references to more
information, and so
on would be quite helpful.
Best wishes,
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
12 Nov
12 Nov
1:28 p.m.
On 11/12/10 1:07 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm thinking about making punched cards.
http://www.ibm-1401.info/CardStockSpecifications.html
you can still buy punched cards
http://cardamation.com/punchcardmedia.html
--
what about fan-fold paper tape?
2:35 p.m.
Hi Al,
On 12.11.2010 22:28, Al Kossow wrote:
On 11/12/10 1:07 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote:
Oh, crazy!
Hi everyone,
I'm thinking about making punched cards.
http://www.ibm-1401.info/CardStockSpecifications.html you can still buy punched cards
http://cardamation.com/punchcardmedia.html
Sure.. I'm thinking about making
custom printed punch cards for small profit.
Still missing are round corners and the right resp. nicely suited paper.
what about fan-fold paper tape?
I made a
"machine" that is able to fanfold paper tape. Yes, but.... currently only
something like a
proof of concept. It worked too unprecisely by far. It needs to be reconstructed using
precision
components instead of a mixture of pneumatics, a stepper motor, and handcrafted wooden
parts :-)
Kind regards,
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
3:01 p.m.
I made a "machine" that is able to fanfold
paper tape. Yes, but....
currently only something like a
proof of concept. It worked too unprecisely by far. It needs to be
reconstructed using precision components instead of a mixture of pneumatics,
a stepper motor, and handcrafted wooden parts :-)
You know that they make paper folding machines, right?
--
Will
7:17 p.m.
Hi William,
On 13.11.2010 00:01, William Donzelli wrote:
Oh... I did look around in the web. Found machines that print and fold and cut and even
can make
coffee for you. I once found an old patent describing a little mechanical desktop machine
that folds
paper tape. Just the thing I'd love to have... But building that kind of machine is
beyond my
mechanical skills. I still have another idea for a folder. I'll try it when I find the
time to do so.
There seems to be one major problem with the usual fanfolding systems: They perforate! If
you
perforate the paper web it's easy. That's done for computer paper and forms.
I did not find any reference to endless folding machines that would do the job - except
the patent
mentioned.
My post was about punched cards. Next week I'll send out some enquiries to some paper
companies
around my part of the world.
The most interesting question is if there is reasonable need/interest for nicely printed
punch cards
througout the vintage computing/computer museum community. I'd want to run them
through a
letterpress. I'd need to do a run of at least 150000 cards. That's about the
minimum amount of paper
to buy for a reasonable price.
Kind regards,
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
I made a
"machine" that is able to fanfold paper tape. Yes, but....
currently only something like a
proof of concept. It worked too unprecisely by far. It needs to be
reconstructed using precision components instead of a mixture of pneumatics,
a stepper motor, and handcrafted wooden parts :-)
You know that they make paper folding machines, right? 
7:41 p.m.
My post was about punched cards. Next week I'll
send out some enquiries
to some paper companies around my part of the world.
It used to be that by far the cheapest source of light stiff cardboard for
EAM purposes was to buy boxes of blank IBM cards, trim them to size, and
print what you wanted on them.
7:44 p.m.
On 13 Nov 2010 at 4:17, Philipp Hachtmann wrote:
The most interesting question is if there is
reasonable need/interest
for nicely printed punch cards througout the vintage
computing/computer museum community. I'd want to run them through a
letterpress. I'd need to do a run of at least 150000 cards. That's
about the minimum amount of paper to buy for a reasonable price.
Phillipp, I'm sure you're aware that there are both ANSI and ISO
standards available for punched cards. Sadly, I don't have a copy of
the X3.11 standard, but if I did, I'd send it to you.
150,000 cards is what, 75 boxes? Heck, that's not that much. I
probably had at least 50 in my office at one point...
--Chuck
7:47 p.m.
There seems to be one major problem with the usual
fanfolding systems: They
perforate! If you perforate the paper web it's easy. That's done for
computer paper and forms.
Perforations are optional on paper folding machines. Some will not
even do the perforation function, so another machine needs to be
called into duty.
The most interesting question is if there is
reasonable need/interest for
nicely printed punch cards througout the vintage computing/computer museum
community. I'd want to run them through a letterpress. I'd need to do a run
of at least 150000 cards. That's about the minimum amount of paper to buy
for a reasonable price.
Do you think you could do it cheaper than Cardmation? For a few
hundred dollars, a collector or museum could get more cards than they
will probably ever use.
--
Will
9:04 p.m.
Hi William,
On 13.11.2010 04:47, William Donzelli wrote:
Are you really sure? That could be great.
I could *try* (any flexo printing specialists around?) to print a broad roll of paper with
arrows
and something like "directional PDP tape".
Then get the roll to a company that folds it for me - can't be too expensive. In the
end I'd cut the
folded paper into 1" pieces.
I assume that processing a 400kg (or more?) roll of paper could help many people...
Probably. Their price for blank cards isn't very high. But I don't know what they
ask for
"personalized" cards. I just assume that you have to spend several hundred
dollars.
If I find the right or nearly right cardboard stuff, I'll do a calculation. I
won't take my labour
into account as it's all a hobby. I have to get paid the press. And the paper, of
course... And a
device for rounding the corners. All in all seems to sum up to approx EUR 3000.
Kind regards,
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
There seems to
be one major problem with the usual fanfolding systems: They
perforate! If you perforate the paper web it's easy. That's done for
computer paper and forms.
Perforations are optional on paper folding machines. Some will not
even do the perforation function, so another machine needs to be
called into duty. The most
interesting question is if there is reasonable need/interest for
nicely printed punch cards througout the vintage computing/computer museum
community. I'd want to run them through a letterpress. I'd need to do a run
of at least 150000 cards. That's about the minimum amount of paper to buy
for a reasonable price.
Do you think you could do it cheaper than Cardmation? For a few
hundred dollars, a collector or museum could get more cards than they
will probably ever use.
9:50 p.m.
Are you really sure? That could be great.
I could *try* (any flexo printing specialists around?) to print a broad roll
of paper with arrows and something like "directional PDP tape".
Then get the roll to a company that folds it for me - can't be too
expensive. In the end I'd cut the folded paper into 1" pieces.
I assume that processing a 400kg (or more?) roll of paper could help many
people...
I have done enough time in a print shop.
Paper folding machines can be a real handful, and thus one of the most
expensive parts of a printing operation. However, paper folding
machines pop up in the US surplus market a fair amount, as the
independent print shops are killed off. It might make sense to do the
folding operation yourself.
Probably. Their price for blank cards isn't very
high. But I don't know what
they ask for "personalized" cards. I just assume that you have to spend
several hundred dollars.
Any print shop that still does ink can print whatever you want on the cards.
--
Will
11:58 p.m.
I have done enough time in a print shop.
Oh
cool! I really like printing.
Paper folding machines can be a real handful, and thus
one of the most
expensive parts of a printing operation.
I see... So the right machines exist - but
somewhere beyondy limited horizon.
However, paper folding
machines pop up in the US surplus market a fair amount, as the
independent print shops are killed off.
Hm, here I saw only sheet folding machines
during the last years.
It might make sense to do the
folding operation yourself.
Then with homebreq equipment
Probably.
Their price for blank cards isn't very high. But I don't know what
they ask for "personalized" cards. I just assume that you have to spend
several hundred dollars.
Any print shop that still does ink can print whatever you want on the cards.
14 Nov
14 Nov
12:35 a.m.
Oh cool! I really like printing.
Pretty neat stuff, but an almost dead industry in the US. So much has
been digitized now (RIPs, digital presses, etc.).
Then with homebreq equipment
Somewhere in between is probably the answer. Shop around, get a
folding machine, then modify it to your needs.
Of course. You can get that service around the corner.
But here it'll cost you lots of money for reproduction and machine setup.
I want to print the cards on my Heidelberg windmill.
I would not be surprised if Cardamation farms out the printing. Or
even the whole card making process.
--
Will
1:02 a.m.
there was a place in St. Louis where a friend of mine worked, which has
the card stock, and the dies to make all the cards you wish. He uses a
large run he had made for making up ticket sets for another hobby he has.
the card stock he used is similar to the fixed part of an old style
credit card form, which you may recall is about the size and shape of a
Hollerith card, including the little part clipped on one corner.
He no longer works there, but the capability still exists. Note that
the input stock is a 12 to 24" wide roll about 8' in diameter, don't
recall how many thousand feet long. He was able to get a short run from
a scrap roll to make his cards, but most people would need to order a
lot of cards. Think maybe 3 or 4 full freight skids, maybe 40" x 40" x
40" or so by the time the whole roll is exhausted.
Jim
On 11/14/2010 12:35 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
Oh cool! I
really like printing.
Pretty neat stuff, but an almost dead industry in the US. So
much has
been digitized now (RIPs, digital presses, etc.).
1:11 a.m.
Hello again,
On 14.11.2010 09:35, William Donzelli wrote:
I think here it's quite similar. There are modern printing shops, of course. The
companies that
could afford new and big machines survived...
Letterpress machines are still around, sometimes standing next to the latest and greatest
"Speedmaster" machines. They're used for <don't know the word, but
the works that don't need ink>.
Yes, that was my idea as well.
I'll try to get to some auctions... Still looking for all that other
"bad" stuff like a RIP...
Possible. The card making process seems to be
quite simple. Take the paper and cut it to cards.
Waht I currently have:
- Cutting machine
- Windmill press
- Some letterset stuff (lead) - not related to the cards
What I'm still missing on my way to making cards:
- Photopolymer plate flow (RIP with "film making machine", developing machine,
Nyloprint machine
(washing, drying, exposure))
- corner rounding machine
- Mechanical guide that allows steady cutting of the cards' missing corner
- The right paper.
The photopolymer thing can be done elsewhere for now. I'll pickup the equipment on
occasion.
A corner rounding machine would be great. Though there seemed to exist cards without
rounded corners.
Paper seems to be available. Don't know prices yet. The price is critical. If it's
more expensive
than 1-2 EUR cent per card the project is endangered.
Have a nice Sunday,
Philipp :-)
--
http://www.hachti.de
Oh cool! I
really like printing.
Pretty neat stuff, but an almost dead industry in the US. So much has
been digitized now (RIPs, digital presses, etc.). Then with
homebreq equipment
Somewhere in between is probably the answer. Shop around, get a
folding machine, then modify it to your needs. Of course. You
can get that service around the corner. But here it'll cost you lots of money for
reproduction and machine setup.
I want to print the cards on my Heidelberg windmill.
I would not be surprised if Cardamation farms out the printing. Or
even the whole card making process.
1:38 a.m.
I think here it's quite similar. There are modern
printing shops, of course.
The companies that could afford new and big machines survived...
Also, the new stuff is just better.
What I'm still missing on my way to making cards:
- Photopolymer plate flow (RIP with "film making machine", developing
machine, Nyloprint machine (washing, drying, exposure))
Well, yes, if you want to print stuff. It may not be worth it, since a
PDF will do fine at most print shops.
- corner rounding machine
Nice to have, but not actually needed. Most card equipments will work
fine with card with square corners.
- Mechanical guide that allows steady cutting of the
cards' missing corner
A properly shaped hunk of wood will do fine for a jig.
- The right paper.
The hard part.
Have a nice Sunday,
Sunday now, I have no idea why I am still up.
--
Will
9:49 a.m.
Huh...!
Am 14.11.2010 um 10:38 schrieb William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>:
Ah? Remember where we are here. An USB stick is better than several tons of cards as well.
But who wants the stick?
I think its quite ok to use letterprint to print cards. The original cards seem to be made
on a flexo rotation machine though. I suspect that with regard to the poor printing
quality. And flexo is very cheap....
The print shops accept pdf today, yes. They
make an offset plate and then print the stuff. But that's not what I want. I want
plates for my letterpress. So I must have some decent machinery for that task - or pay ???
for the plates made from pdf.
That's good news!!! Really!
That's the kind of tool
I had in mind ;)
I have found references to card stock on websites of local (means
German) paper distributors and paper mills. I have to see if someone has that stuff on
stock. If not, I'd have to deal with paper mill minimum order quantities of 40 tons or
something alike - which would be sad...
I know that.... Very well.
Kind regards,
Philipp
I think here
it's quite similar. There are modern printing shops, of course.
The companies that could afford new and big machines survived...
Also, the new stuff is just better. What I'm
still missing on my way to making cards:
- Photopolymer plate flow (RIP with "film making machine", developing
machine, Nyloprint machine (washing, drying, exposure))
Well, yes, if you want to print stuff. It may not be worth it, since a
PDF will do fine at most print shops. - corner rounding machine
Nice to have, but not actually needed. Most card equipments will work
fine with card with square corners. - Mechanical guide that allows steady cutting of
the cards' missing corner
A properly shaped hunk of wood will do fine for a jig. - The right paper.
The hard part. Have a nice Sunday,
Sunday now, I have no idea why I am still up.
1:12 p.m.
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010, William Donzelli wrote:
VERY nice to have. Cards with rounded corners JAM LESS OFTEN. They wear
better.
Heavily used paperback books (K&R) will last a lot longer with rounded
corners.
There are absolute crap devices for hobby crafts. But they should be
adequate to make a few cards to test.
You used to be able to get a little "office" corner rounder for ~$100,
that can handle less than 1/2" thick pile at a time. The plastic top
work surface on some of them doesn't hold up well, and needs replacement
in less than 20 years.
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=corner%20rounder&_fln=1&_ipg=200&a…
On eBay, they start around $75, and real printshop ones cost MONEY.
Yes. Definitely a task for a home made jig, or
modified parts from a
cheap table saw.
Cheapest source still seems to be buying boxes of blank IBM cards.
Apparently some people stocked up too heavily 30+ years ago, and there are
still some colleges, etc. using them as blank stock for printing "add
cards", etc. I had a good local source 10 years ago, but he's gone.
It's pretty much the same as when a friend wanted the absolute cheapest
source of 1 by planks to make a bookcase. The cheapest source was "buy a
used bookcase and break it apart".
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
Also, the new stuff is just better.
For many things, maybe.
Remember embossed printing?
The new stuff is not the same experience. It doesn't smell the same,
sound the same, or make the same mess to clean up.
- corner
rounding machine
Nice to have, but not actually needed. Most card equipments will
work
fine with card with square corners. - Mechanical
guide that allows steady cutting of the cards' missing corner
A properly shaped
hunk of wood will do fine for a jig. - The right
paper.
The hard part. 
5:02 p.m.
Picture of card making machine donated to
CHM: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/2317087629/in/set-721576040655261…
Lee Courtney
4:40 p.m.
From: Philipp Hachtmann
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 1:12 AM
On 14.11.2010 09:35, William Donzelli wrote:
>> Oh cool! I really like printing.
> Pretty neat stuff, but an almost dead industry in
the US. So much has
> been digitized now (RIPs, digital presses, etc.).
I think here it's quite similar. There are modern
printing shops, of
course. The companies that could afford new and big machines survived...
There is a very active mailing list for folks interested in printing at
letpress at listserv.unb.ca (LISTSERV software, send a SIGNON LETPRESS message
to listserv at unb.ca .
Letterpress machines are still around, sometimes
standing next to the
latest and greatest "Speedmaster" machines. They're used for <don't
know
the word, but the works that don't need ink>>.
The term in English is "diecutting".
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.PDPplanet.org/
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
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aek＠bitsavers.org -
cclist＠sydex.com -
charlesleecourtney＠yahoo.com -
chd＠chdickman.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
hachti＠hachti.de -
jws＠jwsss.com -
RichA＠vulcan.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com