20 Sep
2021
20 Sep
'21
12:02 p.m.
I recently rescued two Microvax-2000s but both have dead RD53s.? Does anyone have a
ROMable image of the Microvax 2000/Vaxstation 2000 boot-PROM patches from Wolfgang Moeller
at?http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/??? ?I'm looking to install NetBSD, not VMS and I
don't have any VMS systems on which to run PATCH.? ?Microvax 2000 specs say it can
sustain 3.3MB/s I/O, which has to be via the SCSI interface.? So a SCSI emulator should be
significantly higher performance than an MFM drive (either 30+ year old drive, or
emulator).
Web-searching shows a Sean O'Banion has burned the PROMs successfully; I haven't
yet found other names.
If someone is willing to burn at least one set of EPROMs for me, I'd pay for the
service (either ship EPROMS, or pay for them).
?
20 Sep
20 Sep
2:24 p.m.
Do you know what type of ROM/PROM is needed
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Stone
via cctalk
Sent: 20 September 2021 20:02
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; port-vax at netbsd.org
Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images?
I recently rescued two Microvax-2000s but both have dead RD53s. Does
anyone have a ROMable image of the Microvax 2000/Vaxstation 2000 boot-
PROM patches from Wolfgang Moeller
at http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/ ? I'm looking to install NetBSD, not
VMS and I don't have any VMS systems on which to run PATCH. Microvax
2000 specs say it can sustain 3.3MB/s I/O, which has to be via the SCSI
interface. So a SCSI emulator should be significantly higher performance
than an MFM drive (either 30+ year old drive, or emulator).
Web-searching shows a Sean O'Banion has burned the PROMs successfully; I
haven't yet found other names.
If someone is willing to burn at least one set of EPROMs for me, I'd pay for
the service (either ship EPROMS, or pay for them).
2:44 p.m.
A web-page I found over the weekend said M27512-2, but right now i cannot find it.
Several sources say 256KB PROM, and the photos show 4 EPROMs, which is consistent with
64Kx8-bit. I have to dash now, more in a few hours.
On Monday, September 20, 2021, 02:24:51 PM PDT, <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
wrote:
Do you know what type of ROM/PROM is needed
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Stone
via cctalk
Sent: 20 September 2021 20:02
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; port-vax at netbsd.org
Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images?
I recently rescued two Microvax-2000s but both have dead RD53s.? Does
anyone have a ROMable image of the Microvax 2000/Vaxstation 2000 boot-
PROM patches from Wolfgang Moeller
at http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/ ?? I'm looking to install NetBSD, not
VMS and I don't have any VMS systems on which to run PATCH.? Microvax
2000 specs say it can sustain 3.3MB/s I/O, which has to be via the SCSI
interface.? So a SCSI emulator should be significantly higher performance
than an MFM drive (either 30+ year old drive, or emulator).
Web-searching shows a Sean O'Banion has burned the PROMs successfully; I
haven't yet found other names.
If someone is willing to burn at least one set of EPROMs for me, I'd pay for
the service (either ship EPROMS, or pay for them).
10:39 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:24 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Do you know what type of ROM/PROM is needed
4x 27512 (32-bit wide image)
I have a MicroVAX 2000 but haven't managed to get that SCSI hack working myself.
It's been many years since I last fiddled with it.
-ethan
11 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
Sent: 21 September 2021 06:39
To: Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: Jonathan Stone <kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images?
On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:24 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I am sure some one on here can blow those. I can probably do it. Its been ages since I did
any and I am a long way from the programmer for a couple of weeks.
I was going to try for my MV2000 but it not at the top of the "to-do" pile.
Dave
Do you know what type of ROM/PROM is needed
4x 27512 (32-bit wide image)
I have a MicroVAX 2000 but haven't managed to get that SCSI hack working
myself.
It's been many years since I last fiddled with it.
-ethan 
21 Sep
21 Sep
5:30 a.m.
Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote:
I recently rescued two Microvax-2000s but both have
dead RD53s.? Does anyone have a ROMable image of the Microvax 2000/Vaxstation 2000
boot-PROM patches from Wolfgang Moeller at?http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/??? ?I'm
looking to install NetBSD, not VMS and I don't have any VMS systems on which to run
PATCH.? ?Microvax 2000 specs say it can sustain 3.3MB/s I/O, which has to be via the SCSI
interface.? So a SCSI emulator should be significantly higher performance than an MFM
drive (either 30+ year old drive, or emulator).
Web-searching shows a Sean O'Banion has burned the PROMs successfully; I haven't
yet found other names.
If someone is willing to burn at least one set of EPROMs for me, I'd pay for the
service (either ship EPROMS, or pay for them).
I've tried this almost 2 years before..and it worked "somewhat".
An VS2000 booted up in the first stage but the NetBSD Kernel couldn't
mount root since nothing in the loader expected a disk at the NCR SCSI
interface on the VS2000. Ragge agreed to look at this (bootcode) on my
VS2000, but I'vwe couldn't get an ssh connection from the internet to
an VS3100 M76 to which the VS2000 console was connected to..to work..
For yure I could burn the proms, but I think I'm on the other side of
the pond..
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
1:17 p.m.
On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 05:39:23 AM PDT, Holm Tiffe via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
I've tried this almost 2 years before..and it
worked "somewhat".
An VS2000 booted up in the first stage but the NetBSD Kernel couldn't
mount root since nothing in the loader expected a disk at the NCR SCSI
interface on the VS2000. Ragge agreed to look at this (bootcode) on my
VS2000, but I'vwe couldn't get an ssh connection from the internet to
an VS3100 M76 to which the VS2000 console was connected to..to work..
I once "owned" the NetBSD MIPS port, and I've done VAX assembly and kernel
code j(e.g., VMS device drivers). If I can't figure it out by comparison to 3100 code,
I'll contact Ragge and set up remote access via a BCC08, a NetBSD laptop, and serial.
(At least one of the VS200s is jumpered to Vaxstation mode, and I have two GPX
daughter-cards on order.)
For yure I could burn the proms, but I think I'm on
the other side of
the pond..
I am located in the San Francisco Bay Area. I came here for grad school and never left.
It may be time for me to buy a PROM programmer. Anyone got recommendations for a budget
device? "Amazon's choice" is https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082D5NQ2P. The
costlier option includes 10 different sockets, and it claims support for 29xxx and 29Cxxx
EPROMs, plus lots of others.
The DEC-badged Data-IO " on eBay is tempting, but expensive, and I don't know
where to find software.
1:37 p.m.
The DEC-badged Data-IO " on eBay is tempting, but
expensive, and I don't know where to find software.
If it is just a regular Data I/O underneath, head over to the groups.io page:
https://groups.io/g/DataioEPROM/
Thanks,
Jonathan
1:41 p.m.
On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 01:37:28 PM PDT, Jonathan Chapman <lists at
glitchwrks.com> wrote:
> The DEC-badged Data-IO " on eBay is tempting,
but expensive, and I don't know where to find software.
If it is just a regular Data I/O underneath, head over
to the groups.io page:
https://groups.io/g/DataioEPROM/
The eBay listing is https://www.ebay.com/itm/303208951366. Nostalgic though it is, I'd
prefer to put the price difference into vintage computers, rather than vintage PROM
programmers.
3 p.m.
On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 4:37 PM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
One of my Fall projects is to figure out why my Data I/O 29A isn't
working. It's been sitting for years and when I got it out last year,
it didn't pass self-test. I need to spend some time looking over the
posts in that group to see if my symptoms are common.
That said, unless you need to program stuff other than 2716-27512 and
up in that line, an old Data I/O is probably not what you need. If
you need to program chips made before 1985, then it might be a good
choice.
-ethan
The DEC-badged
Data-IO " on eBay is tempting, but expensive, and I don't know where to find
software.
If it is just a regular Data I/O underneath, head over to the groups.io page:
https://groups.io/g/DataioEPROM/
4:41 p.m.
One of my Fall projects is to figure out why my Data
I/O 29A isn't
working. It's been sitting for years and when I got it out last year,
it didn't pass self-test. I need to spend some time looking over the
posts in that group to see if my symptoms are common.
The diagnostics are pretty good, and the service manual for the base + pack of choice will
get you through it! Let me know if you can't get it going.
That said, unless you need to program stuff other than
2716-27512 and
up in that line, an old Data I/O is probably not what you need. If
you need to program chips made before 1985, then it might be a good
choice.
Agreed, not necessary to go with a Data I/O if you don't need to program old or weird
stuff. And certainly not at the price of that eBay one, with the limited pack it has, and
no front panel/display.
Thanks,
Jonathan
7:39 a.m.
Jonathan Stone <kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com> wrote:
I recently rescued two Microvax-2000s but both have dead RD53s.?? Does
anyone have a ROMable image of the Microvax 2000/Vaxstation 2000 boot-PROM
patches from Wolfgang Moeller at??http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/????? ?
I'm looking to install NetBSD, not VMS and I don't have any VMS systems
on which to run PATCH.?? ??Microvax 2000 specs say it can sustain 3.3MB/s
I/O, which has to be via the SCSI interface.?? So a SCSI emulator should
be significantly higher performance than an MFM drive (either 30+ year
old drive, or emulator).
Web-searching shows a Sean O'Banion has burned the PROMs successfully; I
haven't yet found other names.
If someone is willing to burn at least one set of EPROMs for me, I'd pay
for the service (either ship EPROMS, or pay for them).
?
I can probably burn a set of EPROMS. You don't say where you are but if
"kiwi" in your email address is a hint, you are probably on nearly the
exact opposite side of the planet from where I am (Ireland).
If you want me to have a try, please send me eight 27256s, four for your
microvax and four for mine. That will help cover the cost of the return
postage for your four.
If you want to try other options, maybe you could put some minimal boot
code on a MOP server and have your MV2000 boot from that over the network
before it tries to access your SCSI disk? Or put some code on a floppy disk
and boot from that? If you have a suitable adapter cable, you can plug a
5.25in HD floppy drive into your MV2000 provided it can be jumpered suitably
to look line an RX33. My experience with random PC drives says some can
and some can't. A 3.5in drive can also be used but the ROMs are expecting
an RX33 so an RX33 disk image should be written to the 3.5in floppy.
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
8:44 a.m.
He could also just fix the RD53 and boot off that, then transfer to the
much faster SCSI. I still keep the RX02's around on my pdp11 because I
can boot BRU64k for tape backups. It works. :-)
On 9/21/2021 10:39 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
If you want to try other options, maybe you could put
some minimal boot
code on a MOP server and have your MV2000 boot from that over the network
before it tries to access your SCSI disk? Or put some code on a floppy disk
and boot from that? If you have a suitable adapter cable, you can plug a
5.25in HD floppy drive into your MV2000 provided it can be jumpered suitably
to look line an RX33. My experience with random PC drives says some can
and some can't. A 3.5in drive can also be used but the ROMs are expecting
an RX33 so an RX33 disk image should be written to the 3.5in floppy.
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
9 a.m.
The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old
rotating media.
If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious
performance reasons.
Reseller price for a Maxtor XT-2190 (RD54) is just over US $1000. Disk Emulators are
significantly cheaper.
Thirty years ago I did 4.3BSD-Tahoe kernel hacking on a Vaxstation-II/RC with two RD53s.
One of the spindles was very noisy, I think from the bearing. I really like the quiet of
scsi2sd in my DECstation 5000s (and soon, Alpha 3000/500s and a /700).
One of the reasons I got the 2000s is to format MFM drives for an RQDX3 (I don't have
any PDP-11 CPUs). I have a CMD CQD-420 Qbus SCSi controller, and an MTI almost-equivalent.
I've seen Glen Slick's reverse engineering of the PLD for the CDQ-200. I hope the
newer MTI board "just works"; but if not, MFM is a fallback.
On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 08:44:11 AM PDT, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
He could also just fix the RD53 and boot off that, then transfer to the
much faster SCSI. I still keep the RX02's around on my pdp11 because I
can boot BRU64k for tape backups. It works. :-)
On 9/21/2021 10:39 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
If you want to try other options, maybe you could put
some minimal boot
code on a MOP server and have your MV2000 boot from that over the network
before it tries to access your SCSI disk?? Or put some code on a floppy disk
and boot from that?? If you have a suitable adapter cable, you can plug a
5.25in HD floppy drive into your MV2000 provided it can be jumpered suitably
to look line an RX33.? My experience with random PC drives says some can
and some can't.? A 3.5in drive can also be used but the ROMs are expecting
an RX33 so an RX33 disk image should be written to the 3.5in floppy.
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
9:15 a.m.
On Sep 21, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old
rotating media.
If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious
performance reasons.
Emulators presumably act, performance wise, like SSDs. Given that, an MFM emulator will
significantly outperform a SCSI hard drive since it has no seek delays.
David Gesswein's MFM emulator works impressively well and is inexpensive, too.
paul
10:38 a.m.
On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 09:15:20 AM PDT, Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
My comparison was MFM emulators versus SCSI emulators. scs2sd is significantly cheaper
than David Gesswein's MFM emulator; and higher performance. (IIRC, Gesswein's
emulator transfers entire track images between SSD and RAM, but I may be remembering DREM
documentation instead.).
OTOH, for a machine which already has an MFM controller but no SCSI, an MFM emulator is
cheaper than scs2sd plus SCSI controller. (At least for Qbus. At eBay prices, even RQDX3
plus distribution panel plus emulator, is cheaper than bootable SCSI controller plus SCSI
emulator). SCSI performance will still be better.
On Sep 21,
2021, at 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old
rotating media.
If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious
performance reasons.
Emulators presumably act, performance wise, like SSDs.? Given that, an MFM emulator will
significantly outperform a SCSI hard >drive since it has no seek delays.
David Gesswein's MFM emulator works impressively well and is inexpensive, too. 
11:02 a.m.
On 21/09/2021 18:38, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote:
(At least for Qbus. At eBay prices, even RQDX3 plus distribution panel plus emulator,
is cheaper than bootable SCSI controller plus SCSI emulator). SCSI performance will still
be better.
My recollection is that the MicroVAX 2000 SCSI isn't complete and was
only intended for the tape unit. Whether its performance beats an RD54
will be interesting to see.
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com
11:26 a.m.
On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 11:02:38 AM PDT, Antonio Carlini via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
My recollection is that the MicroVAX 2000 SCSI
isn't complete and was
only intended for the tape unit. Whether its performance beats an RD54
will be interesting to see.
The ROM/VMB support certainly isn't "complete". The NCR5380 itself can do
SCSI for both disks and tapes.
My comparison point would probably be MFM emulator versus SCSI2SD v5.2. Documentation,
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/ncr_symbios/scsi/NCR_SCSI_Eng…
, says the NCR538x didn't support synchronous SCSI until the 5386S. The SCSI devices
would have to avoid ID 0, as that's what the MV2000 ROM uses.
24 Sep
24 Sep
1:19 p.m.
On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 12:15:12PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
The MFM emulator can't transfer data faster than the 5 Mbit/second,
625k Byte/sec of the ST-506 standard.
Seek time isn't zero due to overhead in moving the data in the Beaglebone
to where the PRU processors can access it. Think its around 0.6ms/head. An
entire cylinder is transfered on each seek. Additional time if cylinder
was written to. Each track written needs to be moved also. Most ST-506
drives are slower. I'm faster than average seek for RD54 but it wins for
single track seek at 4ms with 15 heads.
On Sep 21,
2021, at 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old
rotating media.
If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious
performance reasons.
Emulators presumably act, performance wise, like SSDs. Given that, an MFM emulator will
significantly outperform a SCSI hard drive since it has no seek delays.
David Gesswein's MFM emulator works impressively well and is inexpensive, too.
26 Sep
26 Sep
10:34 a.m.
I just purchased an RK05 Controller for my PDP-8/E, does this emulator
work to emulate RK05 packs?? If it does then maybe I can use it as mass
storage until i can find an RK05 (or Plessey or Diablo clones) .
Thanks...
On 9/24/2021 3:19 PM, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 12:15:12PM -0400, Paul Koning
wrote:
The MFM emulator can't transfer data faster than the 5 Mbit/second,
625k Byte/sec of the ST-506 standard.
Seek time isn't zero due to overhead in moving the data in the Beaglebone
to where the PRU processors can access it. Think its around 0.6ms/head. An
entire cylinder is transfered on each seek. Additional time if cylinder
was written to. Each track written needs to be moved also. Most ST-506
drives are slower. I'm faster than average seek for RD54 but it wins for
single track seek at 4ms with 15 heads.
On Sep
21, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old
rotating media.
If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious
performance reasons.
Emulators presumably act, performance wise, like SSDs. Given
that, an MFM emulator will significantly outperform a SCSI hard drive since it has no seek
delays.
David Gesswein's MFM emulator works impressively well and is inexpensive, too.
21 Sep
21 Sep
9:20 a.m.
On 9/21/2021 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone wrote:
The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm
reluctant to buy more
30+ year old rotating media.
If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for
the obvious performance reasons.
Been thinking about that: I'm tempted to open one of these RD53's, leave
it open for an hour or two, then seal it up and run it till it explodes.
The RD53 includes an internal filter between the top of the disk platter
(where the internal fan exhausts) and a pipe to the spot where the heads
are. That filter has always been quite clean, I'm guessing dust and such
from the modern house would just get caught in that
with no further
issues. I'll put that on my "to do" pile.
My main 11 runs with an MTI ESDI controller and a CDC 383mb half height
drive. No issues at all with that generation of disk, it just purrs
after sitting for 15 or so years. Same with the Hitachi 150mb drive.
ESDI is pretty quick, enough for what I need these days.
C
10:07 a.m.
On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 9:00 AM Jonathan Stone via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
One of the reasons I got the 2000s is to format MFM drives for an RQDX3 (I don't
have any PDP-11 CPUs). I have a CMD CQD-420 Qbus SCSi controller, and an MTI
almost-equivalent. I've seen Glen Slick's reverse engineering of the PLD for the
CDQ-200. I hope the newer MTI board "just works"; but if not, MFM is a fallback.
The MTI QTS-30 board I have is essentially the same thing as a CMD
CQD-200 board, just with different firmware. It can be converted into
a CQD-200/TM functional equivalent by swapping the firmware EPROMs and
CSR decode PAL.
I haven't seen an MTI version of the CMD CQD-420 board. The CQD-420 is
more similar to the CQD-220A than the CQD-220, with the standard CSR
address decoding being done in the QBC0420 ASIC instead of in the PAL.
The CQD-220A / CQD-420 PALs only decode the "special" disk/tape CSR
address when that is selected via the address selection DIP switches.
945
days inactive
951
days old
21 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
a.carlini＠ntlworld.com -
bitwiz＠12bitsbest.com -
cctalk＠beyondthepale.ie -
cz＠alembic.crystel.com -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
djg＠pdp8online.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
holm＠freibergnet.de -
kiwi_jonathan＠yahoo.com -
lists＠glitchwrks.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net