11 Sep
2007
11 Sep
'07
4:50 a.m.
Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever
From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:24:01 -0400
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
On Sunday 09 September 2007 16:04, Allison wrote:
I remember seeing that in some sales literature and it always did strike me as
being more spendy than I wanted or could afford to get into. :-)
It cost more because it was industrial strength, larger boards, regulated power
and so on.
A while
back I *almost* got a hold of one of those "z80 network in a box"
systems, it wasn't S-100 but something else I can't recall, I think
that's the one I have the book on, but I never did snag it.
Multibus, very nice bus and expensive cards. I have a few multibus cards.
Intel used it in their MDS800 and a few otehrs as well. Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something
else going there
(RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their "network"
out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my case is
none. I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more cards,
and somehow or other make it work.
And speaking of the networking aspect of it, do any of you guys know how
they did it? I recall one time getting a glimpse of some system or other
that was S-100 but also had a set of connectors at thet op of each card,
which is what they used for their inter-processor linking rather than
trying to push it through the bus. The reason for this is not apparent
to me.
Many ways to do it, using a commmon port or a pool of common memory for
in box networking and serial ports as well. There were also ARCnet, pre
Ethernet and even Ethernet. I've also seen some "CP/M networking"
stuff referred to that was supposed
to work through serial ports, which pretty many machines had, althogh
they appeared in at least one case to be using diodes to wire-OR RS232
signals, which doesn't strike me as too terribly robust. And what
software support there was for this wasn't real apparent.
That was a poor mans networking. Basically the serial ports were used as
CD/CSMA bus and there was some protocal like Ethernet but slower and could
use the usually common async chips. I have such a net going for my CP/M
crates and all. I dunno, I've just got this fascination for
assorted 8-bit parts talking
to each other through some smallish number of wires, I guess it's easier
to deal with than some of the big iron you guys handle regularly, which
I can't afford to go get never mind housing. And I've seen multiple
processors used in stuff already, as in some musical equipment that
passed "event information" from one chip to the next with only a couple
of pins, or the daisywheel printer that had _four_ 804x procesors in it
for different functions.
This is not a new thing. TurboDOS
is neat, and has some good design aspects in it, but there's
too much legacy stuff in there for being able to run CP/M software,
stuff I'd leave out if it were me and too much emphasis on the same old
Console / Printer / Disk Drives in the system, as opposed to something
different or unique. I found the same thing to be the case when I looked
at FORTH, too much of the usual stuff, and that was supposed to have
been used in some control applications? I must've missed something
there...
???? Whats the question or point? I realized in other messaging a while back that
it's been well over a year
since I fired up a soldering iron, and this is a bad thing. :-) And even
then, it was a matter of scrapping stuff, not building anything new and
interesting. I need to get out of that particular rut and get back to it,
or there's no point to all those parts I've been scrounging for decades.
Maybe one of these days I will...
When you do tell us about it. Seems these days I get to maybe one
of the major computer construction based projects maybe two per year.
But I split my time between RF projects and digital projects.
Allison
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
12 Sep
12 Sep
12:02 a.m.
On 9/11/07, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote:
There were a few simple schemes but excluding myself
how many hobbiests
back then had two or more systems?
In 1982, the year you quoted for those Arcnet networks, at age 16, I
had 4 systems, a PET, a C-64, a Cosmac Elf, and a PDP-8/L (that I was
trying to repair - took until 1984, when I finally tracked down a
printset), but I'll grant you that at the time, the number of folks
that had multiple systems were probably dwarfed by the number of folks
who had only one. Of those, due to minimal I/O and/or functionality,
only the PET and the C-64 were "real" systems.
Since I couldn't afford an IEEE-488 disk drive, rather than just move
files back and forth on tape, basing it upon the cable and software
from a contemporary "Byte" magazine, I
fabricated my own
nybble-with-handshake cable between the user ports of the PET and
the
C-64, and moved stuff from one to the other over that. I might have
used serial, if I'd had an ACIA-based port for my PET (there were a
couple that sat in an expansion ROM socket), or if I'd understood more
about the nature of serial comms and crufted up my own bit-banging
routines for the PET (the C-64 had that in ROM already). I understood
parallel communications, so a nybble at a time it was.
Later, around 1983, when I picked up a VIC-20 on clearance for around
$70, I would certainly would have liked to have had a Commodore
network (based around the user port, most likely), but was unaware of
anything I could build for myself, and certainly couldn't afford any
of the "disk sharing" hardware I'd seen advertised to share PET disks
amongst multiple machines.
It took me a few more years to learn enough about serial comms and
computer networking to be able to roll my own hardware and/or
software, but working for a serial comms networking company had a lot
to do with that. I would have loved to have been able to buy or build
something inexpensive, no matter how slow, but even a multi-serial
solution would have strained my high-school budget, as I presume it
would have strained most hobbyists' budgets, or perhaps home
networking would have gotten rolling before the days of Arcnet.
I think the first network I had any hands-on experience with was
AppleTalk/LocalTalk, when I helped my mother with a Corvus disk drive
and a room full of 512K Macs, just before she started her own business
(fortunately, by the time she did, she could afford a 20MB drive per
CPU, so the network was for printing only).
AppleTalk was a great step forward for home networking. It's a shame
that other vendors didn't follow in Apple's footsteps for many years.
I think I had an Amiga for four or five years before I attempted to
even do any serial networking (using DNet). It was well after 1990
before I was able to stick an Amiga on an Ethernet network, and that
was with a $300 card! (there was a Zorro Arcnet card - the A2060, but
I knew I wasn't going to bother with Arcnet by that time).
-ethan
9:32 a.m.
I don't recall if it was mentioned, but let's not forget the gamer
MIDI networking used on the Atari systems...
Cheers,
Chuck
11:33 a.m.
On Wednesday 12 September 2007 12:32, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I don't recall if it was mentioned, but let's
not forget the gamer
MIDI networking used on the Atari systems...
Interesting point. I'm familiar with MIDI, having worked nontrivially with a
bunch of electronic music gear, and you can't get much simpler than that,
in terms of the hardware...
You don't even need "rs232 levels".
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
4:56 p.m.
On Wednesday 12 September 2007 19:45, Ensor wrote:
Hi,
Yup!
But my point is that in prototyping some small SBC the rs232 stuff is about
the only thing on there typically that needs other than logic power (+5V)
unless there's some analog stuff there on the board that needs it.
MIDI, in every implementation I've ever seen, uses only a 5V supply.
I never did understand why current loops weren't used more...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
You don't even need "rs232 levels".
MIDI is a "current loop" interface isn't it?
5:12 p.m.
On 9/12/07, Roy J. Tellason <rtellason at verizon.net> wrote:
On Wednesday 12 September 2007 19:45, Ensor wrote:
And with MAX232 or DS275-type internal-charge-pump line drivers, you
can get away with +5V only, unless, as you say, you need differential
voltages for analog, or perhaps +12V for motors or something. For -5V
at a few dozen mA, there's the venerable ICL7660 (an 8-pin DIP/SOIC
and two external caps).
For more sophisticated stuff, one can get isolated +/-5V or +/-12V or
+/-15V potted modules, but those aren't typically required for
microprocessor-type designs. We did have to stick a +5V->-12V
charge-pump module on our Qbus COMBOARD, 20 years ago, because, IIRC,
BA11 chasses provide +/-12V, but the BA23 does not (or was it some
other MicroVAX chassis?) I still have a pad of them, but no real need
for them since I prototype with MAX232s, not 1488/1489s.
-ethan
Hi,
Yup!
But my point is that in prototyping some small SBC the rs232 stuff is about
the only thing on there typically that needs other than logic power (+5V)
unless there's some analog stuff there on the board that needs it. You don't even need "rs232 levels".
MIDI is a "current loop" interface isn't it?
6 p.m.
On Wednesday 12 September 2007 20:12, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 9/12/07, Roy J. Tellason <rtellason at
verizon.net> wrote:
That's fine if you were buying parts to build something, but having several
decades of accumulation on hand I'm more inclined to use what I have on hand
here, which unfortunately means 1488s and 1489s...
So if there's some easy way to do it otherwise, I'll probably go there. The
only issue is what to do on the peecee end of things...
Unless and until I get my hands on some of those other chips, maybe. :-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
On Wednesday 12 September 2007 19:45, Ensor
wrote:
And with MAX232 or DS275-type internal-charge-pump line drivers, you
can get away with +5V only, unless, as you say, you need differential
voltages for analog, or perhaps +12V for motors or something. For -5V
at a few dozen mA, there's the venerable ICL7660 (an 8-pin DIP/SOIC
and two external caps).
For more sophisticated stuff, one can get isolated +/-5V or +/-12V or
+/-15V potted modules, but those aren't typically required for
microprocessor-type designs. We did have to stick a +5V->-12V
charge-pump module on our Qbus COMBOARD, 20 years ago, because, IIRC,
BA11 chasses provide +/-12V, but the BA23 does not (or was it some
other MicroVAX chassis?) I still have a pad of them, but no real need
for them since I prototype with MAX232s, not 1488/1489s. Hi,
Yup!
But my point is that in prototyping some small SBC the rs232 stuff is
about the only thing on there typically that needs other than logic power
(+5V) unless there's some analog stuff there on the board that needs it. You don't even need "rs232 levels".
MIDI is a "current loop" interface isn't it? 
10:48 a.m.
On 12/09/2007, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/11/07, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net>
wrote:
I am sitting here quietly boggling at the ingenuity displayed in these
posts. I had multiple systems in the mid/late 1980s. By and large, I
retyped everything, tho' by the end, DOS-format 720K 3.5" disks were a
/lingua franca/ that almost everything spoke.
But there were other cheapo serial networks back then: Sinclair
bundled networking in the ZX Interface 1 for the Spectrum, which was,
I think, compatible with the networking of the later Sinclair QL. Also
there was Acorn's Econet, of course.
I think Econet saw a *lot* of use tho' I've never seen a system
outside of a show stand. I don't think enough Sinclairs got used in
schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile.
The problem is, they were all more or less proprietary. It's a shame
some kind of standardised serial-port system wasn't adopted; even
really low-end kit like a Speccy with I/F 1 had a serial port.
Just before Ethernet took over, I built a couple of LANs based on
SAGE's MainLAN, a serial-type system, and I used a lot of Mac-to-Mac
LocalTalk LANs - although actually in the '80s, Farallon PhoneNet took
over quickly. Same computer-side electronics & connectors, so 100%
compatible, but used telephone cables (so was cheaper) and carried a
lot further.
--
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There were a few simple schemes but excluding
myself how many hobbiests
back then had two or more systems?
AppleTalk was a great step forward for home
networking. It's a shame
that other vendors didn't follow in Apple's footsteps for many years.
12:17 p.m.
On Wednesday 12 September 2007 13:48, Liam Proven wrote:
The problem is, they were all more or less
proprietary. It's a shame
some kind of standardised serial-port system wasn't adopted; even
really low-end kit like a Speccy with I/F 1 had a serial port.
That was the problem with an awful lot of stuff back then...
Just before Ethernet took over, I built a couple of
LANs based on
SAGE's MainLAN, a serial-type system, and I used a lot of Mac-to-Mac
LocalTalk LANs - although actually in the '80s, Farallon PhoneNet took
over quickly. Same computer-side electronics & connectors, so 100%
compatible, but used telephone cables (so was cheaper) and carried a
lot further.
Phone connectors? That's a *wonderful* idea! Way cheaper than the DIN stuff
used for MIDI typically, easier to make the cables for, and with two pairs
of wire you can have both directions at once in one cable and set of
connectors. I like it!
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
12:21 p.m.
New subject: LocalTalk/PhoneNet was 8-bitters and multi-whatever
LocalTalk LANs - although actually in the '80s,
Farallon PhoneNet took
over quickly. Same computer-side electronics & connectors, so 100%
compatible, but used telephone cables (so was cheaper) and carried a
lot further.
I still have a PhoneNet LocalTalk segment. It's very handy for old Macs
and my IIgs.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- "Another day, another dangling modifier" -----------------------------------
13 Sep
13 Sep
2:15 p.m.
But there were other cheapo serial networks back then:
Sinclair
bundled networking in the ZX Interface 1 for the Spectrum, which was,
The SInclair netowrk, at least from what I've read in the QL service
manual/schematics, was similar in consept to the serial port netowrks
mentioned here. There was a 2 wirte bus (signal and ground) linking all
machines, terminated by ressitors at eash end [1] All the machines
monitored the siagnal wire, any machine could drive it (and by monitoring
while it was driving it, it detected collisions).
The termination resistors were built into all the machines, connected up
using the 'break contacts' of the 3,5mm jack sockets (OK 'mini phone
socket' across the Pond'. You connected a cable from one machine to the
next, and the empty sockets on the 2 'end' amchines automatically
connected the resistors to the network.
I think, compatible with the networking of the later
Sinclair QL. Also
there was Acorn's Econet, of course.
I think Econet saw a *lot* of use tho' I've never seen a system
Econet was available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems',
Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User Guide for the Electron
mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't
available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't
have persisted with it.
outside of a show stand. I don't think enough
Sinclairs got used in
schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile.
I've never seen it used.
-tony
3:49 p.m.
On Thu, 2007-09-13 at 22:15 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
I've seen an Electron expansion box with what I'm lead to believe is an
Econet interface. I haven't seen it working.
A friend of mine who had a QL and a Spectrum with an Interface 1 and I
tried it - one QL, two Spectrums. It sort of worked. If you knew what
you were looking for you could share files, kind of. You could also
redirect streams from one machine to another. In total we played with
it for about an hour, then his Mum called us down for dinner. That was
nearly^H^H^H^H^H^H over 15 years ago now, we've never got back to it.
Gordon
The termination resistors were built into all the
machines, connected up
using the 'break contacts' of the 3,5mm jack sockets (OK 'mini phone
socket' across the Pond'. You connected a cable from one machine to the
next, and the empty sockets on the 2 'end' amchines automatically
connected the resistors to the network.
Except when the sockets were too slack and didn't make contact with the
NC terminal properly.
I think,
compatible with the networking of the later Sinclair QL. Also
there was Acorn's Econet, of course.
I think Econet saw a *lot* of use tho' I've never seen a system
Econet was available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems',
Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User Guide for the Electron
mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't
available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't
have persisted with it. outside of a
show stand. I don't think enough Sinclairs got used in
schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile.
I've never seen it used. 
4:10 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
It was a plug-in module on the Risc PC as I recall (different in design to the
ones used on the Master and Archimedes machines). Even the A4 laptop had
Econet ability.
There was also the Ecolink board made by Acorn - a full-length ISA card for an
x86 PC, containing a 6502, RAM, and the familiar 68B54 ADLC chip. I don't
think Acorn ever sold many - Acorn and x86 PC users just tended to move in
different circles, so there wasn't much call for a crossover.
Torch also used Econet ("TorchNet") on their systems which used the BBC micro
system board as the I/O processor, of course. Plus I recently found out that
SJ Research released an Econet board for the RML 380Z - something of a
surprise given how RML used to push their own co-ax network technology.
Other than those two examples I'm not aware of it ever migrating to other
manufacturers, though. No idea if that was just down to no need, or whether
Acorn imposed some nasty licensing fees on people who wanted to use it (they
certainly seemed open enough about the protocols and hardware)
I think Econet
saw a *lot* of use tho' I've never seen a system
Econet was available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems',
Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User Guide for the Electron
mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't
available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't
have persisted with it. > outside of a show stand. I don't think enough
Sinclairs got used in
> schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile.
What happened with the QL machines (and, by extension, the ICL OPD)? Did they
also feature the same network ability? I just wonder if it was a little more
widespread there if so, even if it wasn't popular with the Z80-based machines.
(At one point I went to a rural school where there were around 30 kids in the
entire place. The sole computer was a 48K Spectrum - which spent most of its
life running Manic Miner...)
cheers
Jules
14 Sep
14 Sep
6:09 a.m.
On 14/09/2007, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
What happened with the QL machines (and, by extension,
the ICL OPD)? Did they
also feature the same network ability? I just wonder if it was a little more
widespread there if so, even if it wasn't popular with the Z80-based machines.
I don't know about the 3rd party official QL compatibles - the Merlin
Tonto, ICL OnePerDesk and so on. The Sinclair version offered it.
AFAIK most of the later 3rd party clones - Thor, Aurora and so on -
dropped the networking.
The few people I knew who had QLs were, ah, independent minded sorts
who I suspect saw little point in /any/ kind of networking. Generally
their sleek back "32-bit" multitasking machine was their sole computer
and they looked down on pretty much everyone else, from Spectrum users
to SUN or VAX ones. :?)
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
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1:01 p.m.
There was also the Ecolink board made by Acorn - a
full-length ISA card for an
x86 PC, containing a 6502, RAM, and the familiar 68B54 ADLC chip. I don't
Now you mentione it, I rememebr it. They turn up on E-bay from time to
time and always sell for a very high price (more than I would pay for one...)
Acorn also made some specific econet hardware -- the Filestores (6502 +
Econst module + drives + hard idsk interface), the Bridge (6502 + 2
econet interfaces, basically), and for real enthusiasts the 'test box'
(which basically pvided a clock source and allowed you to simulate a
typical lossy econet cable)
think Acorn ever sold many - Acorn and x86 PC users
just tended to move in
different circles, so there wasn't much call for a crossover.
Torch also used Econet ("TorchNet") on their systems which used the BBC micro
system board as the I/O processor, of course. Plus I recently found out that
SJ Research released an Econet board for the RML 380Z - something of a
surprise given how RML used to push their own co-ax network technology.
Given that Both BBC micros and RRML380Z were commonly found in UK
schools, I am not suprised that a 3rd party company made a product to
allow them both to sit on the same network. I would have been a lot more
suprised if RML had made the board themselves.
> outside of
a show stand. I don't think enough Sinclairs got used in
> schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile.
What happened with the QL machines (and, by extension, the ICL OPD)? Did they
also feature the same network ability? I just wonder if it was a little more
6:05 a.m.
On 13/09/2007, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Thanks for that! Most informative.
It was an optional extra on the Archimedes range - the case cutouts
were there but you needs a small additional circuit board that plugged
onto the motherboard and carried the controller logic and ports.
For the RISC PC, I don't know. I imagine so. Possibly as a podule or
the same sort of thing as the older Archies?
[Nod]
ISTR I rigged up a test system once, just to try it, between my 48K &
128K Speccies. Only one I ever saw.
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
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Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508
But there were
other cheapo serial networks back then: Sinclair
bundled networking in the ZX Interface 1 for the Spectrum, which was,
The SInclair netowrk, at least from what I've read in the QL service
manual/schematics, was similar in consept to the serial port netowrks
mentioned here. There was a 2 wirte bus (signal and ground) linking all
machines, terminated by ressitors at eash end [1] All the machines
monitored the siagnal wire, any machine could drive it (and by monitoring
while it was driving it, it detected collisions).
The termination resistors were built into all the machines, connected up
using the 'break contacts' of the 3,5mm jack sockets (OK 'mini phone
socket' across the Pond'. You connected a cable from one machine to the
next, and the empty sockets on the 2 'end' amchines automatically
connected the resistors to the network. I think,
compatible with the networking of the later Sinclair QL. Also
there was Acorn's Econet, of course.
I think Econet saw a *lot* of use tho' I've never seen a system
Econet was available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems',
Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User Guide for the Electron
mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't
available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't
have persisted with it. outside of a
show stand. I don't think enough Sinclairs got used in
schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile.
I've never seen it used.
1:16 p.m.
Econet was
available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems'=
,
Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User
Guide for the Electron
mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't
available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't
have persisted with it.
It was an optional extra on the Archimedes range - the case cutouts
were there but you needs a small additional circuit board that plugged
onto the motherboard and carried the controller logic and ports.
2:13 p.m.
New subject: Econet (Was: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever)
Tony Duell wrote:
It was optional (rather than standard) on almost all Acorn machines. The
only one I know to have had it as standard was the ACW.
Possibly it was standard on the whole ABC range. It's also fitted on my 310
machines (80286 copro) but a sample of one is hardly telling :-) I've never
seen a 1xx (Z80 copro) series machine (well, one that had been gutted, so that
doesn't help!)
Econet was available on just about all the Acorn
computers -- 'Systems'=
,
Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User
Guide for the Electron
mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't
available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't
have persisted with it.
It was an optional extra on the Archimedes range - the
case cutouts
were there but you needs a small additional circuit board that plugged
onto the motherboard and carried the controller logic and ports. For the 'System' machines, the Econet
interface was not suprisingly an
Eurocard you put in a spare slot of the cardcage.
I've got two variants here (both p/n 200,024) - the earlier one has
additional 4017 and LS74 ICs not present on the issue 2 board. Not sure if
that was just the collision detection circuitry and they removed it on the
later board, or if it provided some other function...
For the Atom, there was a long, thin PCB that plugged
onto the solder
side (top) of the main PCB. I can't rememebr if the header plug for this
to fit onto was standard on all Atoms, or whehter you soldered it in when
adding the Econet upgrate.
I just checked my Atoms, as they're all out of storage so I can assemble some
good machines from all the odds and ends. Four machines have the header
fitted, one doesn't (but looks like it did once and someone's removed it),
whilst the sixth shows no sign of it ever being fitted.
I checked the technical manual - that header's not listed in the kit of parts,
and the text just says it's not required on the minimum configuration machine.
So it sounds like it wasn't standard on the kit-built machines at least, but
possibly was on the factory systems (my machine which shows no signs of ever
having had it looks to have been a home-build, judging by the soldering)
Beebs (and B+'s?) had the main PCB laid out fo the
econet circuitry, but
no compoennts were fitted. The upgrade was a 'bag of bits' that you
soldered to the main PCB.
It's funny that the technical spec for the model A/B specifies sockets for all
the optional bits, *apart* from Econet; I'm not sure if something can be read
into that about the BBC's expected take up of the network ability.
The Master and Archimedes machines took a little
plug-in PCB containing
econet circuit. There were at least 2 versions of this one had hardware
collision detection, the other didn't.
I found someone's web page the other day listing various econet modules -
they'd found about 8 different ones (not all Acorn), although I think they're
all basically the same two circuits (one with collision detection, one without)
The same module is used, IIRC, in the Filkestore
systems.
Quite possibly... I never did take a look inside one. I just had a look at my
photos of the Communicator (Acorn, not Torch) and even that has sockets for
one of the modules. Possibly that means their network computer was the only
system which didn't have an easy path to Econet ability.
cheers
Jules
2:43 p.m.
New subject: Econet (Was: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever)
It was
optional (rather than standard) on almost all Acorn machines. The
only one I know to have had it as standard was the ACW.
Possibly it was standard on the whole ABC range. It's also fitted on my 310 For the
'System' machines, the Econet interface was not suprisingly an
Eurocard you put in a spare slot of the cardcage.
I've got two variants here (both p/n 200,024) - the earlier one has
additional 4017 and LS74 ICs not present on the issue 2 board. Not sure if
that was just the collision detection circuitry and they removed it on the
later board, or if it provided some other function... Beebs (and
B+'s?) had the main PCB laid out fo the econet circuitry, but
no compoennts were fitted. The upgrade was a 'bag of bits' that you
soldered to the main PCB.
It's funny that the technical spec for the model A/B specifies sockets for all
the optional bits, *apart* from Econet; I'm not sure if something can be read
into that about the BBC's expected take up of the
network ability.
Or was it because there were many passive components to solder in anyway?
Did any of the other upgrads involve anything other than ICs?
The same
module is used, IIRC, in the Filkestore systems.
Quite possibly... I never did take a look inside one. I just had a look at my
12 Sep
12 Sep
12:47 p.m.
In the topic of early networking, but alas, not 8-bit, I should
mention that I've got some Diamond Multimedia HomeFree and HomeFree
PhoneLine (one uses an antenna; the other sends an RF signal down a
copper pair) networking cards. Probably one of the earlier wireless
cards for PC. Uses an iRDA chip as the controller.
Anyone wants them, let me know.
Cheers,
Chuck
11:18 a.m.
On Tuesday 11 September 2007 07:50, Allison wrote:
Yup...
I remember those days, thinking of 50 nodes as being pretty good-sized. :-)
What does that take on the software side of things?
Not a whole lot, CPnet could be used but it was easy enough to use plain
vanilla CP/M2.2 and add your own BIOS drivers for "networked functions".
defineatly home grown.
Modifying the BIOS of a machine was something I'd never quite gotten as much
of a handle on as I'd like to. I still have a Bigboard II that I didn't get
the software with, for example. While it'll boot a Xerox 820 floppy, that
only gives me SSSD, the DS or DD stuff won't work because the two versions
of things map the I/O differently (the BBII from 80H rather than 00H). I
need to get back to hacking on that one of these days.
Just that I'd like to see some stuff that isn't oriented that way. You
have a SBC, you obviously need some way to talk to it, but the standard
"console" stuff gets a little old, I probably don't want to hook a
printer up to it, and may not even want a disk drive of any sort,
depending on what I wanna do with it. I'm up for exploring some
alternative approaches to doing things. Unfortunately the embedded stuff
that's out there doesn't satisfy too often, the design being too specific
to the app, source code not available, etc. I'm thinking that it should
be possible to have some sort of a more generalized framework to hang
things on, and then you could optimize it for specific uses, or expand
it in different directions. Even from the earliest days "personal"
computers all seemed to take pretty much the same approach to things...
Well by hook or by grook the average PC still has a serial port, some have
two or atleast a USB port for a USB to serial.
Actually amongst my stuff USB is a really recent phenomenon, and I've only in
the past month or two acquired anything that uses it -- an external DVD
reader / CD burner -- and nothing else. Most of my peecee hardware is older
stuff, and serial ports are not a problem, by comparison with those whose
hardware is more current. So yeah, having a serial port is probably one of
the things I'd consider to be a necessary feature in there. And it'll end up
being able to talk to just about anything I'd be running.
On Sunday 09
September 2007 16:04, Allison wrote:
I remember seeing that in some sales literature and it always did strike
me as being more spendy than I wanted or could afford to get into. :-)
It cost more because it was industrial strength, larger boards, regulated
power and so on. A while
back I *almost* got a hold of one of those "z80 network in a
box" systems, it wasn't S-100 but something else I can't recall, I
think that's the one I have the book on, but I never did snag it.
Multibus, very nice bus and expensive cards. I have a few multibus
cards. Intel used it in their MDS800 and a few otehrs as well. I know of
ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that once at a trade show,
and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here someplace,
though I don't forsee me ever using them.
ARCnet and most of the 'nets were in the price range of a hard disk then.
Also the whole idea of networking was new. For example in 1982 the two
largest networks I knew of were DEC (internal) and Dupont(internal) and
they were around 50 nodes! There were a few simple schemes but excluding myself
how many hobbiests
back then had two or more systems?
Good point. It took me quite a while to progress beyond my first machine,
and even then it was CP/M boxes that people didn't want any more, rather
than newer/bigger stuff. And I still have most of 'em. :-)
I've also
seen some "CP/M networking" stuff referred to that was
supposed to work through serial ports, which pretty many machines
had, althogh they appeared in at least one case to be using diodes to
wire-OR RS232 signals, which doesn't strike me as too terribly robust.
And what software support there was for this wasn't real apparent.
That was a poor mans networking. Basically the serial ports were used
as CD/CSMA bus and there was some protocal like Ethernet but slower and
could use the usually common async chips. I have such a net going for
my CP/M crates and all. TurboDOS is
neat, and has some good design aspects in it, but there's
too much legacy stuff in there for being able to run CP/M software,
stuff I'd leave out if it were me and too much emphasis on the same
old Console / Printer / Disk Drives in the system, as opposed to
something different or unique. I found the same thing to be the case
when I looked at FORTH, too much of the usual stuff, and that was
supposed to have been used in some control applications? I must've
missed something there...
???? Whats the question or point? It's not that hard to write software to use that
serial as a access from the
SBC for things like a remote printer or disk and people have and are doing
it. It's not "networking" in the full blown sense but none of the IO of a
SBC is required to direct connection to a printer or terminal (ignoring rom
based stuff).
RF is a whole 'nother thing entirely, and I've not even begun to do much with
that...
Yet. :-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
I realized in other messaging a while back that
it's been well over a year
since I fired up a soldering iron, and this is a bad thing. :-) And
even then, it was a matter of scrapping stuff, not building anything
new and interesting. I need to get out of that particular rut and get
back to it, or there's no point to all those parts I've been scrounging
for decades. Maybe one of these days I will...
When you do tell us about it. Seems these days I get to maybe one
of the major computer construction based projects maybe two per year.
But I split my time between RF projects and digital projects. 
12:08 p.m.
Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I remember those days, thinking of 50 nodes as being pretty good-sized. :-)
IBM's internal network was significantly larger than that by '82. 8-)
Peace... Sridhar
I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that
once at a trade show,
and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here someplace,
though I don't forsee me ever using them.
ARCnet and most of the 'nets
were in the price range of a hard disk then.
Also the whole idea of networking was new. For example in 1982 the two
largest networks I knew of were DEC (internal) and Dupont(internal) and
they were around 50 nodes!
12:45 p.m.
On Wednesday 12 September 2007 15:08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I remember those days, thinking of 50 nodes as being pretty good-sized.
:-)
IBM's internal network was significantly larger than that by '82. 8-)
Of that I have no doubt! :-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that
once at a trade
show, and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here
someplace, though I don't forsee me ever using them.
ARCnet and most of the 'nets were in the price range of a hard disk
then. Also the whole idea of networking was new. For example in 1982
the two largest networks I knew of were DEC (internal) and
Dupont(internal) and they were around 50 nodes! 
4:04 p.m.
On 12/09/2007 19:18, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
On Tuesday 11 September 2007 07:50, Allison wrote:
>> I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on
that once at a trade show,
>> and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here someplace,
>> though I don't forsee me ever using them.
> ARCnet and most of the 'nets were in the price
range of a hard disk then.
> Also the whole idea of networking was new. For example in 1982 the two
> largest networks I knew of were DEC (internal) and Dupont(internal) and
> they were around 50 nodes!
ARCnet is still alive in some building management systems. The people
who do some of them for our University use it, to my disgust. They run
long copper cables between buildings and then wonder why it stops
working during thunderstorms.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
26 Sep
26 Sep
1:43 p.m.
New subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay
Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer, but still large and heavy, system:
http://tinyurl.com/yoxvav
Bob
1:55 p.m.
New subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay
Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer, but
still large and heavy, system:
http://tinyurl.com/yoxvav
I... want... that...
Gaaah! I need space!
Peace... Sridhar
2:01 p.m.
New subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay
Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer, but
still large and heavy, system:
Insert familiar lament here: All of the fun stuff is half a continent away.
--
Chris Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."
2:09 p.m.
New subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay
Chris Kennedy wrote:
Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
That is good ... We don't want the west coast collectors with more.
California will slip into the ocean quicker. :)
Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer,
but still large and heavy, system:
Insert familiar lament here: All of the fun stuff is half a continent away. 
2:14 p.m.
New subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay
At 2:01 PM -0700 9/26/07, Chris Kennedy wrote:
Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
If that is a concern, then you have no business collecting Mainframes! :^)
Out of curiosity, am I correct that the three storagetek tape
libraries actually take up more space than the mainframe and drive
array?
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer,
but still large and
heavy, system:
Insert familiar lament here: All of the fun stuff is half a continent away.
2:23 p.m.
New subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay
Zane H. Healy wrote:
If that is a concern, then you have no business collecting Mainframes! :^)
Out of curiosity, am I correct that the three storagetek tape libraries
actually take up more space than the mainframe and drive array?
Yes. That's a newish machine. I think it came out in 2000.
Peace... Sridhar
Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer, but
still large and
heavy, system:
Insert familiar lament here: All of the fun stuff is half a continent
away. 
27 Sep
27 Sep
11:56 a.m.
New subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay
On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 02:01:07PM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote:
Insert familiar lament here: All of the fun stuff is
half a continent away.
For me it's almost always at the other side of the pond. :(
?ngel
--
Angel @ Granada, Spain
PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key
3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591
------------------------------------------------------
() ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/
/\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments
7:43 a.m.
New subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay
Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
Anyone collect Amdahl stuff?
I was talking to a chap the other day who came to drop off bits of an IBM 3850
mass storage system*; he was ex-Amdahl and by the sounds of it some of their
systems were pretty darn nice. Lots of gold content though (although I gather
that's less true of the later systems - maybe this one's light enough on gold
that the scrappers won't get it)
* One of these:
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3850.html
... sadly all he had was the tape head assembly and a couple of cartridges,
although the mechanism's pretty darn impressive. Would be nice to see a whole
tape silo / robot assembly functioning, though :-)
11:54 a.m.
New subject: IBM 3850 / was Re: Amdahl 1015 on ebay
Jules Richardson wrote:
Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
I recall seeing one of these in the 'cathedral'* at CERN around 1985. IIRC,
one could look in the end of the unit and see what was like a long corridor
with the honeycomb compartments filling both sides of the corridor and the
robot mechanism in the middle (although I don't think I actually saw it move).
(* The cathedral was the colloquial name of the main machine room for the
computing division at CERN: an acre of raised floor filled with machines and
open for several stories high (to assist with cooling I expect). Was quite
impressive to walk into.)
Anyone collect Amdahl stuff?
I was talking to a chap the other day who came to drop off bits of an IBM 3850
mass storage system*; he was ex-Amdahl and by the sounds of it some of their
systems were pretty darn nice. Lots of gold content though (although I gather
that's less true of the later systems - maybe this one's light enough on gold
that the scrappers won't get it)
* One of these:
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3850.html
... sadly all he had was the tape head assembly and a couple of cartridges,
although the mechanism's pretty darn impressive. Would be nice to see a whole
tape silo / robot assembly functioning, though :-)
1:14 p.m.
New subject: IBM 3850 / was Re: Amdahl 1015 on ebay
On Thursday 27 September 2007 14:54, Brent Hilpert wrote:
I recall seeing one of these in the
'cathedral'* at CERN around 1985. IIRC,
one could look in the end of the unit and see what was like a long corridor
with the honeycomb compartments filling both sides of the corridor and the
robot mechanism in the middle (although I don't think I actually saw it
move).
(* The cathedral was the colloquial name of the main machine room for the
computing division at CERN: an acre of raised floor filled with machines
and open for several stories high (to assist with cooling I expect). Was
quite impressive to walk into.)
Hm, I wonder if there's any connection between that and ESR's use of that
term? :-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
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