22 Sep
2004
22 Sep
'04
7:09 a.m.
Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before. Quite possibly the
coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though:
http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html
cheers,
Jules
--
"We've had a lot of loonies around this place, but you're the first one
who thought the sunrise was made out of stale beer. Now are you going to
pick up your flute and leave, or shall I part your hair with this
crowbar?"
22 Sep
22 Sep
9:17 a.m.
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote:
Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before.
Quite possibly the
coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though:
http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html
Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at the VCF.
The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and design
work.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
23 Sep
23 Sep
12:50 p.m.
On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 11:17 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote:
Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays though (I don't know
any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay control
system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off an email to
them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the wiring diagrams.
I was just thinking that it would be an interesting challenge to build a
fully mechanical version - no electrical parts whatsoever. Steam-powered
pong, that'd be different... "Babbage Pong", maybe... :-)
And given the light loading involved, why not use wooden gearing instead
of metal: "Organic Pong"...
Heh!
J.
Apologies if someone's mentioned this one
before. Quite possibly the
coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though:
http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html
Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at the VCF.
The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and design
work. 
1:13 p.m.
Seems to me like a handful of opamps would be a lot easier. Not
everything is best done digitally! It's just a bunch of triangles to
solve.
(It is an amazing construction, and the website works really well too.)
24 Sep
24 Sep
1:55 a.m.
New subject: Relay computers
At 22:50 23/09/2004, you wrote:
On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 11:17 -0700, Vintage Computer
Festival wrote:
I did some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations (i.e. they might be completely
& utterly wrong, in which case I'd appreciate corrections) on a relay
computer...
Assume you want a Z80-type CPU. This has ~8k gates. Typically, it seems to
take 1 relay per input to implement any given gate. Now, I don't know how
many "x-input" gates there are in a Z80, so I'll assume that - on average -
it will require 3 relays/gate. Thus, we need ~24,000 relays to implement
the Z80.
If each relay needs, say, 25mA @ 6v to operate, then the peak current draw
of our R80 (as I shall call it) could be around 600A (I think). And that's
before we've added memory, i/o, etc.
As for the heat/noise - well, IMHO it's worth building it just to
experience that! Mind you, you'll need a lot of room: If you use 30mm by
13mm relays, then the board space you need is at least 9.36 square
metres... Still, if you assume that each board needs approx 40mm of space
incl. airflow room, then you should be able to fit the R80 into 2 400mm by
400mm by 2000mm cabinets (internal w/d/h)...
The relays I've been looking at typically quote around 25ms to operate
(either way), so I don't see how you could clock the R80 at anything faster
than around 40Hz; and you'd probably want to drop to 20Hz to be on the safe
side. The same relays quote a typical lifetime of 10e7 operations; so at
20Hz, your R80 should last a little under 139 continuous hours of operation
before relays started failing...
Creating a screen driver should be interesting....
Question: Wouldn't it be easier to implement an OR gate with no relays at
all (just two wires joining together)? Or would you need to use the relays
to keep the output voltage/amperage regulated?
Cheers,
Ade.
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote:
Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays though (I don't know
any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay control
system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off an email to
them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the wiring diagrams. Apologies if someone's mentioned this one
before. Quite possibly the
coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though:
http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html
Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at the VCF.
The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and design
work. 
2:27 a.m.
At 05:50 PM 9/23/2004, you wrote:
Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays
though (I don't know
any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay control
system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off an email to
them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the wiring diagrams.
I was just thinking that it would be an interesting challenge to build a
fully mechanical version - no electrical parts whatsoever. Steam-powered
pong, that'd be different... "Babbage Pong", maybe... :-)
And given the light loading involved, why not use wooden gearing instead
of metal: "Organic Pong"...
Is the Museum of Automata still open in York (England)?
Fascinating place that had all sorts of mechanical marvels like this.
I remember an archer that would pull an arrow out of his quiver, shoot it
at a target, then retrieve the arrow and shoot again - all mechanical.
Amazing stuff.
But it's been a few years, and recently I couldn't find anything on the web
about them.
Ed K.
5:28 a.m.
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 07:27 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote:
Is the Museum of Automata still open in York
(England)?
Fascinating place that had all sorts of mechanical marvels like this.
Hmm, I'm not sure.
I did stumble across these two interesting links the other day:
http://www.bigredhair.com/automaton
http://www.fi.edu/pieces/knox/automaton
cheers,
Jules
10:06 a.m.
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote:
I did stumble across these two interesting links the
other day:
http://www.bigredhair.com/automaton
I was going to comment that people were so gullible back then, but then I
submit to you the America of today.
Now THAT is amazingly cool.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
11:15 a.m.
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 12:06, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Now THAT is amazingly cool.
Those things really are extraordinary. Even more amazing must be the
method of describing, in cams and levers, the motions necessary to carry
it out. It's "programmable".
I *never* hear any interest, discussion, or documentation of how the
process of 'programming' these machines (as well as music players and
related automata) was done. There's a transformation and abstraction of
thought, through arbitrary hardware constraints, into a desired end.
It's an algorithm, and (pun intended) if it walks like a duck, it's
probably a duck -- it's programming.
Same (and more) goes to jacquard loom programming. Clearly that's known,
because there are still such things in use, though I imagine techniques
have improved, but I bet textile historians would know where to look for
that.
11:44 a.m.
>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings
<tomj(a)wps.com> writes:
Tom> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 12:06, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
> > http://www.fi.edu/pieces/knox/automaton
>
> Now THAT is amazingly cool.
Tom> Those things really are extraordinary. Even more amazing must be
Tom> the method of describing, in cams and levers, the motions
Tom> necessary to carry it out. It's "programmable".
Sure is.
Tom> I *never* hear any interest, discussion, or documentation of how
Tom> the process of 'programming' these machines (as well as music
Tom> players and related automata) was done. There's a transformation
Tom> and abstraction of thought, through arbitrary hardware
Tom> constraints, into a desired end. It's an algorithm, and (pun
Tom> intended) if it walks like a duck, it's probably a duck -- it's
Tom> programming.
In some cases there isn't much abstraction. For example, music boxes,
player pianos, and calliopes all have a tape or roll with one
"channel" per sound making element, moving at constant speed. So the
program is simply a two-dimensional representation of the sound:
frequency (or more precisely, sound actuator) on the x axis, time on
the y axis.
That cam mechanism is similar to what you find in many mechanisms,
though a whole lot more complicated. Describing motion of mechanisms
by one or more cams is classic mechanical engineering. Design of
cams, in particular cams in fast moving mechanism, is a serious topic
for ME majors...
paul
28 Sep
28 Sep
6:18 a.m.
On Friday 24 September 2004 15:15, Tom Jennings wrote:
Same (and more) goes to jacquard loom programming.
Clearly that's known,
because there are still such things in use, though I imagine techniques
have improved, but I bet textile historians would know where to look for
that.
Speaking of which, the Rare Books room at the library here here (Univ. of
Illinois) has a book that was not printed, but each page was woven from very
fine silk threads on a Jacquard loom in the 1800s. The thing is about 100
pages. It's absolutely amazing, and must have taken thousands (and
thousands...) of punched cards to program the loom.
- Dan Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
"we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of...
fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on
the shore of an infinite sea of mystery."
chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein"
8:05 a.m.
New subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report
After a super-early workday, I bailed early and headed over to University of
Michigan property disposition to see what's what. Still available was a
complete S/390 Generation IV for around $1000. This thing is destined for
the scrap yard if no one can, figuratively, pick it up. Also available is a
RS/6000, though I couldn't get into the cabinet to see what processors it
had. An IBM 9-track reel-to-reel cab was next to the RS/6000, but I couldn't
identify it.
Loads of uninteresting PC junk, a box of ZIP and JAZ drives, some cool old
video editing equipment (Fora and Sony), but not much else. I picked up a
JVC S-VHS video editing deck from the editing equipment, and a Kensington
turbomouse trackball for $55.
There were two interesting expansion cards, an "Impact" PCI card with
internal audio in and out, and three IDE-style pin connectors, but no
external connectors. DVD decoder? Also, a full-length ISA card with a bunch
of NCR chips, and the back half covered with a RF shield. The only connector
was a F-type screw connector (CATV style) which leads me to belive it's an
old TV tuner card, but I don't think NCR is known for multimedia chipsets,
and the RF shielded area was at the back of the card instead of right next
to the connector. Any ideas?
1:30 a.m.
New subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Jason McBrien wrote:
external connectors. DVD decoder? Also, a full-length
ISA card with a bunch
of NCR chips, and the back half covered with a RF shield. The only connector
was a F-type screw connector (CATV style) which leads me to belive it's an
old TV tuner card, but I don't think NCR is known for multimedia chipsets,
and the RF shielded area was at the back of the card instead of right next
to the connector. Any ideas?
*Possibly* a video-conferencing board. If so, it most likely was one
board in a multi-board set.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
6:53 p.m.
New subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report
After a super-early workday, I bailed early and headed
over to University of
Michigan property disposition to see what's what. Still available was a
complete S/390 Generation IV for around $1000. This thing is destined for
the scrap yard if no one can, figuratively, pick it up.
Considering how S/390s are starting to get decommishioned, $1000 is a
little too pricey. They won't get a huge amount for scrap, either.
Also available is a
RS/6000, though I couldn't get into the cabinet to see what processors it
had. An IBM 9-track reel-to-reel cab was next to the RS/6000, but I couldn't
identify it.
Could you describe it?
I have been looking for references to an IBM 9 track that came after the
3420. Their biggest feature was that each drive had a huge green LED
matrix panel mounted above to let you know what the drive was doing from a
football field away.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
29 Sep
29 Sep
5:35 a.m.
New subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Donzelli" <aw288(a)osfn.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: University of Michigan Property Depot report
<SNIP>
Could you describe it?
I'll go back next week and take a picture, if it's still there.
I have been looking for references to an IBM 9 track that came after the
3420. Their biggest feature was that each drive had a huge green LED
matrix panel mounted above to let you know what the drive was doing from a
football field away.
They had a bunch of those at the property depot a few months ago, along with
an ancient RS/6000 and a big DASD array. I'm considering as my next car a
Chevy Avalanche so I can start picking this stuff up. I'll just need
subsidies for gas :)
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
6:48 a.m.
New subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 09:35, Jason McBrien wrote:
They had a bunch of those at the property depot a few
months ago,
along with an ancient RS/6000 and a big DASD array. I'm considering
as my next car a Chevy Avalanche so I can start picking this stuff
up. I'll just need subsidies for gas :)
Hmm. I'd like to come up with a DASD for my S/390 at some point, so I
might do something more interesting with it than heat my garage...
Anyways, I don't think you'd want to try to haul any IBM DASD inside an
SUV, unless you wanted to get new shocks. A trailer, however, would
probably work if rated for enough weight.
The number that IBM gives as the minimum weight for an S/390 cabinet of
the type I have (9672) is 1300LBS for a single 6ft high 24" rack, which
explains the difficulty I had moving it across the carpeting in my last
apartment. :)
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
30 Sep
30 Sep
4:13 a.m.
New subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Finnegan" <pat(a)computer-refuge.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: University of Michigan Property Depot report
Hmm. I'd like to come up with a DASD for my S/390
at some point, so I
might do something more interesting with it than heat my garage...
Anyways, I don't think you'd want to try to haul any IBM DASD inside an
SUV, unless you wanted to get new shocks. A trailer, however, would
probably work if rated for enough weight.
The number that IBM gives as the minimum weight for an S/390 cabinet of
the type I have (9672) is 1300LBS for a single 6ft high 24" rack, which
explains the difficulty I had moving it across the carpeting in my last
apartment. :)
Excellent! The Avalanche will carry 2000lbs and it's bed is 8' x 50".
Perfect! My wife will be thrilled :)
I bought some DECStations from a guy at UofMI a few years ago, he had one of
those Intel 287-based supercomputers in his apartment. I'm still not sure
how he got it up the stairs...
7262
days inactive
7270
days old
16 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
aw288＠osfn.org -
dtwright＠uiuc.edu -
javickers＠solutionengineers.com -
jbmcb＠hotmail.com -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
Pres＠macro-inc.com -
tomj＠wps.com -
vcf＠siconic.com