25 Apr
2002
25 Apr
'02
4:41 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com]
They are toys, since they didn't have a disk
interface in
them. They, in
fact, if your description is correct, needed a toy interface
to talk to
another toy interface that talked to what was probably a
smarter computer that
had a disk interface in it.
That pretty much describes commodore disk drives, yep. The
point, though, is that they plug directly into an interface
that's already on the machine, so we would get into the sticky
discussion of how "directly" a drive must be handled. Require
too much of the logic to be in the computer, and suddenly an
external IDE disk wouldn't count.
As an aside, I've heard of interesting things being done with
the disk drive "computers," though I can't think of any off hand.
They spoke a pretty simple serial protocol, too, such that you
can basically plug them into other systems (Intel Linux machines,
at least) and build simple applications to talk to them, and they
handled all of the complexities of disk I/O, so that the CPU didn't
need to -- so there are good points to them.
That being said, if I understand your other post properly, once
the drive is there, you would possibly not consider it a toy
any more, whether the drive is external or not, and regardless
of how it's driven. Or am I way off?
Would you also have considered 9-track tape "mass storage" for the
time?
Chris
Christopher Smith, Perl Developer
Amdocs - Champaign, IL
/usr/bin/perl -e '
print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl
Hacker.")."\x08!\n");
'
25 Apr
25 Apr
6:30 p.m.
comments inline ...
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Smith" <csmith(a)amdocs.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 3:41 PM
Subject: RE: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)
An external IDE drive would be hazardous thing to use because of cable length.
-----Original
Message-----
From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com]
They are toys, since they didn't have a disk
interface in
them. They, in
fact, if your description is correct, needed a toy interface
to talk to
another toy interface that talked to what was probably a
smarter computer that
had a disk interface in it.
That pretty much describes commodore disk drives, yep. The
point, though, is that they plug directly into an interface
that's already on the machine, so we would get into the sticky
discussion of how "directly" a drive must be handled. Require
too much of the logic to be in the computer, and suddenly an
external IDE disk wouldn't count.
As an aside, I've heard of interesting things being done with
the disk drive "computers," though I can't think of any off hand.
Yes, these things were out there. I remember I had a 2 MHz 6809 in my printer
at a time when I was using a 1 MHz 6502. It seemed ironic that the computer
hardware in my printer cost on the order of 5x what the hardware in my
computer had cost. Of course, I designed/built my own hardware, so it didn't
cost as much as it might because I was thrifty.
They spoke a pretty simple serial protocol, too, such that you
can basically plug them into other systems (Intel Linux machines,
at least) and build simple applications to talk to them, and they
handled all of the complexities of disk I/O, so that the CPU didn't
need to -- so there are good points to them.
What you may have had, then, is a toy with a computer as a peripheral. That
was probably quite a bit after the time reference of 1980.
That being said, if I understand your other post properly, once
the drive is there, you would possibly not consider it a toy
any more, whether the drive is external or not, and regardless
of how it's driven. Or am I way off?
What I am focused on is where the intelligence to run the I/O resides. Once
microprocessors and especially the single-chippers, with integrated
peripherals as well as memory and the CPU, became cheaper, due to higher
density of logic and the economies of scale, their use in intelligent
peripherals made great deal of sense. However, it resulted in ugly and
awkward packaging, which was addressed even later with more elegant interface
standards, say, by 1986, with the standardization of SCSI. However, much of
the time, the intelligence didn't reside in the main box because it was a toy.
Only with the addition of considerable additional resources and intelligence
did the things function as computer systems. Technically they were computer
systems by most definitions, but their architecture, particularly as viewed
from the outside, was that of a toy rather than that of
a
designed-from-the-ground-up computer. In other words, their computing
ability, when not applied to playing the games for which they were designed,
was just an aside.
Would you also have considered 9-track tape "mass storage" for the
time?
I'd tread lightly around that subject, unless your Atari or whatever, had a
9-track drive in '80 or so.
Chris
Christopher Smith, Perl Developer
Amdocs - Champaign, IL
/usr/bin/perl -e '
print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl
Hacker.")."\x08!\n");
'
6:46 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Christopher Smith once stated:
That pretty much describes commodore disk drives, yep. The
point, though, is that they plug directly into an interface
that's already on the machine, so we would get into the sticky
discussion of how "directly" a drive must be handled. Require
too much of the logic to be in the computer, and suddenly an
external IDE disk wouldn't count.
As an aside, I've heard of interesting things being done with
the disk drive "computers," though I can't think of any off hand.
The CPU in the disk drives could be programmed and I've heard stories of
programming two such drives to handle copying files between them, leaving
the main computer free to do other things, including being off entirely.
-spc (Which is pretty neat actually ... )
7:17 p.m.
The CPU in the disk drives could be programmed and
I've heard stories of
programming two such drives to handle copying files between them, leaving
the main computer free to do other things, including being off entirely.
I do this all the time with Fast Hackem. To make multiple backups, just
keep inserting disks and the drive automatically starts up. Once Fast Hackem
has loaded the drives with their copy programs, I just power the 128 totally
off.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Really???? WOW!!!!! I'm shallow TOO!!!!! -----------------------------------
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days inactive
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3 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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csmith＠amdocs.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
spc＠conman.org -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu