Well, since we're on the topic of ABS brakes.... 1) ABS has sometimes, in the past, been used in cars and (mostly) trucks only for the stability of the system and not for the reduced braking distances. Many vehicles w/ rear-only ABS use it so the rear of the vehicle doesn't fish-tail in a emergency brake situation. Most manufacturers (if not all) now implement 4 wheel ABS, which significantly reduce braking distances. 2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS brakes. unless the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake line is cut, or (very unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes will work just fine. 3) w/ a properly functioning ABS system, there is almost no way a person can 'out-brake' it with the same size and type brake system (same number of pistons, size and compound brake pads, same brake fluid, same size rotors and calipers ect..) The ABS 'pumps' the brakes at a speed that humans could not possibly acheive. this is why they are computerized. sure, I can stop a car faster than any ABS system, and I'm sure you could easily do it too, but not as safe (brick wall, tree, ect.) 4) if you really want to drive a car w/out ABS *and* make it safer than one w/ ABS, there are a few things you should do besides training ( that's a given, and about $2K min.). Spend a couple $K to increase all component sizes, get real sticky pads, get wider sticky tires and pray you don't lock-up. oh, and don't slam on your brakes in a non-ABS car... *SCREECH*, a couple of 360s and crash. its happened to me, xcept for the crash...i think i was lucky. 5) You stated below the reasoning of not wanting an ABS equipt car. Here's my response: There is documentation about the ABS brakes, how do you think mechanics fix them? Go buy the book. About the failure bit: sure, anything can fail! the airbags (u want those in your car, right?), the tires (these too?), headlights (?), seatbelts (!).. i think you see my point. I answered the last reason above. It is very unlikely that ABS brakes will fail. And the part about skill.... have you ever watched NASCAR? Highly trained guys there...crash all the time! F-1 races? there too! NASCAR doesn't allow ABS, and there have been a few rule changes in KART that i haven't kept up with so i can't comment about that. So basically, if you want to be ABSOLUTELY safe don't drive, fly, walk, run with scissors in you hands, tilt your chair back too far, or even leave the house. wait tornados... don't leave your basement. All kidding aside, ABS is probably one of the best safety features in any car. If you are buying one new or used, don't leave the lot without it. Airbags too! They react and act faster than you can. Tony Duell wrote:

And that is my problem as well. IMHO if you are depending on some safety feature (ABS brakes, etc) to get you out of trouble then you are driving dangerously. If/when I learn to drive I will want to (and will insist that) I learn to drive properly, even if the ABS system, power steering, etc all fail at the same time. Yep. I'd much rather drive slower and leave big gaps (for all then idiots decide to cut into them from what I've observed). OK, so my journey takes a few minutes longer (and often it is only a few minutes), but at least I get there alive. Exactly. Safety equipment is there to save you if you make a mistake and nothing more. It is (or should not be) used to keep you out of trouble. If you are depending on ABS brakes to prevent a skid in normal conditions, then most likely you'll end up killing someone. -tony

But only recently has this been true of commercial aircraft.

Tony wrote: [various good reasons deleted] > No thanks. I'd rather trust my skill (and thus have to learn to do things > properly) than trust a microprocessor.

Don't fly on a Boeing 777 or an Airbus A320 either. And don't ever wind up in a hospital ICU, surgery, or radiation oncology.

I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)

from the flight controls (IE the stick doesn't tell their hands anything)

I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized.

I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized.

I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized.

The sort of anecdotal evidence that I can put forward is that the VAXes I currently look after are more reliable than the 11/780s I looked after ten or so years ago which in turn were significantly more reliable that the DECsystem-10 I used to use. However, this is just my experience so it's hardly hard scientific proof.

Sometimes the machine is too difficult for the current level of tech to repair -- say PDP 11/70's now...8-(

I think DEC did some of the best diags in the industry.

Well, I don't drive yet, but when I do, I sure as hell won't have a car with ABS. The reasons are that (a) I am not going to trust my life, and the lives of others to an undocumented system that could possibly fail, (b) a good driver can stop a car in a shorter distance than an ABS system can under some conditions and (c) if it does fail you have to use the brakes differently than you do with a working ABS system.

No thanks. I'd rather trust my skill (and thus have to learn to do things properly) than trust a microprocessor.

-tony

RE ABS I love it, most racers I know love it, and IMNSHO you have it all wrong. All it took for me was a couple passes on a wet track doing emergency lane changes, with and without ABS in a small Audi. With ABS you stomp the brakes and change lanes. Without ABS its a toss of the dice on your reaction, skill, and the grip of the tires, and most people get to set up a lot of orange cones after a spin.

from fault tolerent to fail soft. Fail soft is the way ABS works, if it

Why the hell do we seem to have so many god damn ABS experts here!? Go away! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99]