9 May
2017
9 May
'17
3:27 a.m.
9 May
9 May
2:47 p.m.
On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Bell 101C
https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure wonder what those rows
of large relays are for.
paul
3:29 p.m.
2017-05-09 15:47 GMT+02:00 Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:
?Of course. But I ever guess about the 101 and other early modems... Would
be possible to emulate them in some way, or their assembly and logic
wouldn't allow it?
Regards
Sergio
On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure wonder
what those rows of large relays are for.
paul
3:40 p.m.
It would depend on what you wanted to emulate. The 'logic' you see in the
relays and here
https://goo.gl/photos/4sDv7MGRvknugiAGA
Would be very easy.
The logic is to handle auto answer, carrier detect, motor control, local vs
remote loop etc. All the things
that were miniaturized by Penrill and later Hays.
The rest is pretty much analog design. One could fully emulate the circuit
in Spice but that would not give one real time (be fun to see how fast one
could).
-pete
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:29 AM, SPC via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
2017-05-09 15:47 GMT+02:00 Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>:
?Of course. But I ever guess about the 101 and other early modems... Would
be possible to emulate them in some way, or their assembly and logic
wouldn't allow it?
Regards
Sergio
On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure wonder
what those rows of large relays are for.
paul
3:32 p.m.
The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits ) and
110 baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model 35
was introduced in 1961.
-pete
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure wonder
what those rows of large relays are for.
paul
3:39 p.m.
So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was introduced in 1958 for ASCII and 110
Baud.
Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't clocked)
up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem" was
earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines and the
1950s. It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but the concept is
identical. I remember QST articles around 1958 or so about RTTY tuning units, built out
of tubes with a relay (differential relay?) thrown in for good measure.
paul
On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete
at petelancashire.com> wrote:
The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits ) and 110 baud. So
it does not go back to the 50's.
I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model 35 was introduced
in 1961.
-pete
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Bell 101C
https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure wonder what those rows
of large relays are for.
paul
3:57 p.m.
Wikipedia is wrong a lot of times. Usually in the details.
Modem or MOdulator DEModulator had to come about when one could finally put
a modulator (voltage or current loop) in and get a modulated signal out,
and the reverse, and thirdly all the control circuitry to automate things.
Long before that, each function was separate.
I can find 1958 and SAGE but non have any proof, and many references are
circular.
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was
introduced in 1958 for
ASCII and 110 Baud.
Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't
clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem" was
earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines
and the 1950s. It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but
the concept is identical. I remember QST articles around 1958 or so about
RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a relay (differential relay?)
thrown in for good measure.
paul
On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire
<pete at petelancashire.com>
wrote:
The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits )
and 110
baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model
35 was
introduced in 1961.
-pete
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
> On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure wonder
what
those rows of large relays are for.
paul
4:14 p.m.
The BSPs for Data Set 101C
Identification and Operation March 1963 (Issue 2)
Test and Installation Methods May 1967
Locating Trouble and Test Procedures 1964
http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
Answers the questions about the relays
-pete
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
wrote:
Wikipedia is wrong a lot of times. Usually in the
details.
Modem or MOdulator DEModulator had to come about when one could finally
put a modulator (voltage or current loop) in and get a modulated signal
out, and the reverse, and thirdly all the control circuitry to automate
things.
Long before that, each function was separate.
I can find 1958 and SAGE but non have any proof, and many references are
circular.
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it
was introduced in 1958 for
ASCII and 110 Baud.
Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't
clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem"
was earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit
machines and the 1950s. It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline
term, but the concept is identical. I remember QST articles around 1958 or
so about RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a relay (differential
relay?) thrown in for good measure.
paul
On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire
<pete at petelancashire.com>
wrote:
The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits )
and 110
baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model
35 was
introduced in 1961.
-pete
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
> On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure
wonder what
those rows of large relays are for.
paul
4:22 p.m.
Good lord, is that a pile of relays to click out bits rotary-style?
=o
--
Anders Nelson
+1 (517) 775-6129
www.erogear.com
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was
introduced in 1958 for
ASCII and 110 Baud.
Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't
clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem" was
earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines
and the 1950s. It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but
the concept is identical. I remember QST articles around 1958 or so about
RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a relay (differential relay?)
thrown in for good measure.
paul
On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire
<pete at petelancashire.com>
wrote:
The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits )
and 110
baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model
35 was
introduced in 1961.
-pete
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
> On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure wonder
what
those rows of large relays are for.
paul
5:06 p.m.
Looking at this documents:
http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
I sill can't figure out what a lot of the stuff inside is for.
--Chuck
6:08 p.m.
Once you convert from Bell to English things make a bit more sense. One has
to have a understanding of analog engineering terms but this oldie pretty
much works the same as any Hayes etc modems.
The Modulator takes digital 1/0 levels and converts to one of two sine wave
frequencies.
The Limiter, Discriminator take from the sender the analog waveform (pretty
much sine wave) and limits the amplitude and the discriminator decides if
the frequency is a 1 or 0. The hybrid does impedance matching, echo
cancellation etc.
Many of the terminal block connections are for setting signal levels, later
this was done with circuitry, but was
too complex for doing in individual transistors, or at least in the space
available.
The Restrainer is filter looking for a particular frequency and when one
comes down the line from the CO, it basically is a slow down signal.
Timer - timing
Send Break timer - think Signetics 555.
I've not seen a clear breakdown of the relays
AN (AK?) - Answer
CON - Connected
M - Momentarily hold
OR - Originate vs Receive (controls the frequencies etc)
S
RU
CY
RB
RS
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Looking at this documents:
http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
I sill can't figure out what a lot of the stuff inside is for.
--Chuck
7:58 p.m.
On 2017-May-09, at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Looking at this documents:
http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
I sill can't figure out what a lot of the stuff inside is for.
I've looked at one of these modems in the bottom of a 33 although not examined it in
great depth.
I expect a large part of the volume of stuff like the relays isn't really modem but
call-management sequencing & switching: on/off hook, incoming-call detect, answer
detect, originate/answer mode switching, etc.
Going from examination of another modem from the era, the modem proper can be expected to
be on the several PCB cards, modularised as filters, modulator, discriminator, 20mA loop
interface, etc.
The telephone equipment manufacturers in those days were very good at laying out and
wiring things in an exceedingly complex manner, they really liked wire bundles and dress.
9:19 p.m.
On May 9, 2017, at 2:58 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2017-May-09, at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Yes, that's what the manual suggests, it lists a half dozen relays. It's not
clear why any of them would be more than one or two pole relays, but perhaps the ones that
were actually used (which are many-pole devices) happened to be standard units and were
"more than enough for the job".
paul
Looking at this documents:
http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
I sill can't figure out what a lot of the stuff inside is for.
I've looked at one of these modems in the bottom of a 33 although not examined it in
great depth.
I expect a large part of the volume of stuff like the relays isn't really modem but
call-management sequencing & switching: on/off hook, incoming-call detect, answer
detect, originate/answer mode switching, etc.
9:41 p.m.
The relays were from WECO. Made by the millions, they were the ones used
in all Bell telephone exchanged from the early 50's up to the ESS
(electronic) exchanges. Remember seeing ones with less then a full
compliment of contacts, but that was pretty uncommon.
https://archive.org/details/bstj31-6-1023
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On May 9, 2017, at 2:58 PM, Brent Hilpert via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2017-May-09, at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
examined
it in great depth.
Looking at this documents:
http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
I sill can't figure out what a lot of the stuff inside is for.
I've looked at one of these modems in the bottom of a 33 although not I expect a large part of the volume of stuff like
the relays isn't
really modem but call-management sequencing & switching:
on/off hook,
incoming-call detect, answer detect, originate/answer mode switching, etc.
Yes, that's what the manual suggests, it lists a half dozen relays. It's
not clear why any of them would be more than one or two pole relays, but
perhaps the ones that were actually used (which are many-pole devices)
happened to be standard units and were "more than enough for the job".
paul
10 May
10 May
1:55 a.m.
On May 9, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Pete Lancashire <pete
at petelancashire.com> wrote:
The relays were from WECO. Made by the millions, they were the ones used in all Bell
telephone exchanged from the early 50's up to the ESS (electronic) exchanges. Remember
seeing ones with less then a full compliment of contacts, but that was pretty uncommon.
https://archive.org/details/bstj31-6-1023
Nice, thanks. I recognize the older "U" style relays, my father used a bunch of
those in various ham radio projects.
The end of that article describes Wire Wrap technology. I wonder if that was the first
time it appeared.
paul
9 May
9 May
9:31 p.m.
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2017-May-09, at 9:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
wrote:
> Looking at this documents:
>
> http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/telegraph/data_set_101c.pdf
What a find. Thank you!
I've looked at one of these modems in the bottom
of a 33 although not examined it in great depth.
I've got a 101C in the bottom of an ASR33 I got at Dayton many, many
years ago. I have no idea how any of it works at the detail level (I
get how it works at the system level). Fortunately for me, it's never
required any deep fiddling.
The one thing I need to do is replace the touchtone keypad on that
ASR33 - I removed it many years ago and failed to document it
sufficiently to just "put it back". I can probably figure out about
80% of it from obvious signs (like which screw terminals are lifted
and empty), but even before I begin, I have 2 loose touchtone keypads
from the same era with different numbers of wires and I
didn't mark
the one from the ASR33 (the other is from a Western Electric
telephone).
The 101C Data Set, though, is, to me, a large aluminum clad box of
mystery in the ASR33 pedestal.
-ethan
5:16 p.m.
The relays are for controlling the modes function/mode. For example if the
unit is put in local mode, or when an incoming call is "Answered" the motor
will start running.
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Good lord, is that a pile of relays to click out bits
rotary-style?
=o
--
Anders Nelson
+1 (517) 775-6129
www.erogear.com
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it
was introduced in 1958 for
ASCII and 110 Baud.
Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't
clocked) up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem"
was
earlier called a "tuning unit" and that
term goes back to 5 bit machines
and the 1950s. It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but
the concept is identical. I remember QST articles around 1958 or so
about
RTTY tuning units, built out of tubes with a
relay (differential relay?)
thrown in for good measure.
paul
wonder
On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire
<pete at petelancashire.com>
wrote:
The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits )
and 110
baud. So it does not go back to the 50's.
I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model
35 was
introduced in 1961.
-pete
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
> On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Bell 101C
> >
> > https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
>
> Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
>
> It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure what those rows of large relays are for.
paul
7:49 p.m.
> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>> On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Bell 101C
>>
>> https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
>
> Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
>
> It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure wonder what those
rows of large relays are for.
>
> paul
> On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire
<pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
>
> The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits ) and 110 baud.
So it does not go back to the 50's.
>
> I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model 35 was
introduced in 1961.
>
> -pete
On 2017-May-09, at 7:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was
introduced in 1958 for ASCII and 110 Baud.
Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't clocked)
up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem" was
earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines and the
1950s. It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but the concept is
identical. I remember QST articles around 1958 or so about RTTY tuning units, built out
of tubes with a relay (differential relay?) thrown in for good measure.
paul
If my recollection and interpretation of the limited tech description available is
correct, SIGSALY was doing frequency-domain-multi-channel, FSK-digital-transmission during
WWII, that is, sending multiple digital bit streams over a radio channel. (Along with a
host of other amazing technical achievements for the time, including or esp. in the
digital realm).
I haven't looked into whether RTTY was prior to that, or post-war, or whether RTTY may
have got some of the ideas from SIGSALY.
9:17 p.m.
Rtty was fsk. You needed a scope or a needle to
indicate when the BFO was centered.
That would be tuning.
I think the Wiky was talking about the 101 standard, not
the hardware.
One wonders what all the terminal strips were for.
Maybe more phone line or you could connect to more
TTYs
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 7:39:00 AM
To: Pete Lancashire
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 110 Baud modem
So Wikipedia is wrong, since it claims that it was introduced in 1958 for ASCII and 110
Baud.
Then again, 101/103 modem modulation doesn't care about speed (it isn't clocked)
up to a limit of 300 baud or so.
I wonder if there is also terminology here: what we now call a "modem" was
earlier called a "tuning unit" and that term goes back to 5 bit machines and the
1950s. It may be more a radio TTY term than a landline term, but the concept is
identical. I remember QST articles around 1958 or so about RTTY tuning units, built out
of tubes with a relay (differential relay?) thrown in for good measure.
paul
On May 9, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete
at petelancashire.com> wrote:
The C version came later with the introduction of ASCII ( 5 to 8 bits ) and 110 baud. So
it does not go back to the 50's.
I do not know when the C version was released. The ASCII Teletype Model 35 was introduced
in 1961.
-pete
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
On May 8, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Pete Lancashire via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Bell 101C
https://goo.gl/photos/hrhAwvzMBLWWteXu6
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_101
Interesting. Released in 1958 but that unit is stamped 10 years later.
It would be nice to see photos of the circuit boards. And I sure wonder what those rows
of large relays are for.
paul
11:18 p.m.
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of dwight via cctalk [cctalk at
classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 4:17 PM
To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 110 Baud modem
Rtty was fsk. You needed a scope or a needle to
___________________________________________
Or a good ear. :-)
bill
10 May
10 May
1:34 a.m.
Anyone else have a 101c hooked up ? When I get this one and the 35KSR it
belongs with I would like to try getting both to talk to each other and do
a video.
On May 9, 2017 3:18 PM, "Bill Gunshannon via cctalk" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
wrote:
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of dwight via
cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 4:17 PM
To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 110 Baud modem
Rtty was fsk. You needed a scope or a needle to
___________________________________________
Or a good ear. :-)
bill
2807
days inactive
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days old
21 comments
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